Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force
This is what happens when Ki masters and skeptics are in the same room.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI |
Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force
An extreme example, but it illustrates my point I was trying to make on the Aikijiujitsu thread concerning measures and criteria.
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Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I am due to go out and level set some of my own assumptions again.
I actually appreciate how the "skeptics" were still reasonably respectful in questioning the assumptions. I am as much about respecting someone's house as the next guy, but yeah, opening the door to questions about what works in self-defense based on dumb extrapolations - that shit should be squashed. |
Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force
That has been the big take away for me in the last few weeks really. That is, introspection and constantly looking to make sure I am not developing self confirming habits and becoming a "self licking ice cream cone".
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force
Well, it was one of the things I liked best about having my little "intro" class that I was doing up here through Community Ed as I'd usually get people on either end of the spectrum with either having already black belts in something else versus people that had never done anything and therefore had no preconceived notions.
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as a side note, i wonder what sort of people are his students. would be an interesting psycho analysis study of those folks. even more curious is where to find them, because i need to remake myself (sort of like Madona remade herself ...into what i still had no idea) into the some sort of Grand Vizier where i would call myself "Phi the White" and need those sort of folks for slaves.... i meant acolytes. :D |
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I was wondering the same to. How do you find or develop a group of people that suspend a degree of rationality and believe that they are really being influenced in this manner. I mean it is real because they believe it. I was wondering the same thing from a psychological perspective.
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Ron |
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Hi Guys,
This video makes me wonder how any person can believe such nonsense.I think some people suspend common sense and quite frankly get taken for a ride by guys like Jukka.Total rubbish, gives the wrong impression of Aikido. Cheers, Joe. |
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Maybe he and you have different deffinitions for the tem 'Ki'. |
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Ron |
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This is an interesting video to form a discussion about methodology around.
I'll withhold judgement about the value of this system or training until I know more about his endstates and goals. It could be that his methods work just fine. From his comments on the video, it is hard to tell what his endstates are. I assume he is successful simply based on the fact that he can have a roomfull of people attend a seminar for at least the length of the sample video. So, what are his endstates? it is something about opening your heart and good things happen to you or something like that. I am not too clear, maybe someone who knows more about this than me can elaborate. It could be that this training is able to do many things for the people that study this. Clearly they seem to like it and there seems to be a community built around a mutual/shared experience of some sort. So, we'd have to know first what it is that he is accomplishing and talk to his students to figure out how it has benefited them. That is the big take away for me. As a martial system, I'd say it is pretty poor based on the observation of the two videos Demetrio has posted. I'd say it does absolutely nothing of value that I would walk in the door for. But, what does that matter to me or what really does my opinion matter. If he professed that it was a martial art and he wanted to demonstrate that, I'd then walk in with my criteria and methods for testing that and then see how he was able to address those issues. Other than that, we'd have to spend more time really getting to the core of what he is creating. My guess is it is somewhat ambiguous and the followers are quite okay with that! |
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This is the version of one of the attending skeptics:
Hi guys, Bold mine. |
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The claim to spirituality and personal improvement is a hard one to tackle as it is ambiguous and really not measurable except by a survey of member opinions as to if they felt more spiritual or that it led to more happiness, health etc. So, as a practice for those things...sure if this is what gets you going! |
Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force
Just fwiw, this has nothing to do with what I consider legitimate internal strength (neijin) . On the other hand it is fairly common and I think aikido has plenty of this kind of cultish nonsense, not at all confused as to why you'd run into it.
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I don't think Demetrio or anyone else mentioned anything about IS. But since you bring it up...what are the similarities or differences of what is exhibited here versus legitimate IS. What exactly is legitimate internal strength and how do we distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate Internal Strength? that is, how do we measure or test? against what criteria is it appropriate to say one thing is legitimate and something else is not?
I am not saying this to prove or disprove anything anyone is doing. But I think it is important to discuss criteria in a constructive manner with critical thought...not as a free for all that gets all stupid and emotional like in the past! |
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so , huge caveat , that this is IMO, but.
Internal strength in the martial arts does not require supernatural powers, does not enable teleportation , telekinesis , lighting stuff on fire , flying... Its the ability to use weight / ground reaction without beign obvious. Whole body (non isolated) movement that can be hard to spot , motivated by the core of your body, which transfers leg and trunk power to the extremities. It has to do with balance and body integrity, it requires a lot of work to achieve enough conditioning to be able to manifest *you wont get it by having someone whisper the secret to you* . Internal strength can be used to manipulate inanimate objects; it doesn't require collusion with anything , you can punch a wall with internal strength and hurt yourself if you want to. A lot of asian martial arts refer to elements of internal strength, but the spectrum of ability is pretty wide, and the methods for cultivation are likewise pretty diverse. There are a bunch of typical demonstrations (bending spear in the throat, lying between bricks and having someone smash them on you, etc ) that are legitimate (if impractical).. and so on. I think you can peel all the cultural trappings off IS and still end up with unsual body skills, so legitimate doesnt mean member of a group or believer in some religion or anything like that. Anyone else care to chip in? |
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Wait a minute....
How this thread has gone about IS? You people are really obsessed. |
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But guilty as charged. |
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When my missus orders me to do the housework , mow the lawn and do the dishes, is she using I.S when she moves an inanimate object [namely me ]?Cheers, Joe. |
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PS - I can lift a cup of coffee with it though |
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From what I've gathered Jukka's EFO combines his experience in Aikido (Hikitsuchi, Blaize and maybe Shapiro) and Kyusho Aiki Jutsu (a system headed by anoter finnish: Toni Kauhanen). |
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