aikido and competition
 

has anyone ever heard of joe lewis? a lot of martial artists and people in general voted him as the greatest karate champion ever...anyways, I was listening to a radio show (its a martial arts radio show based out of vancouver canada I believe) and joe lewis was on there and he was saying steven seagal and jean claude van damme arent "real" martial artists because they never competed in competition to prove their skills...I thought that was an ignorant statement on his behalf because he has an ego problem as well...he was saying he would beat the gracies and all this other mumbo jumbo...first of all, if he did his research he would have known that in aikido there arent any competitions, so that would mean that seagal wouldnt compete in competition know matter how good he is...I was reading a few articles and they were saying some of the techniques that aikido teaches you can be very dangerous...check out this article and give me your input on this article and what joe lewis has said about steven seagal...its interesting to know that joe lewis has trained with bruce lee too...

A general perception of Aikido is that there are no competitions. This is generally true, although there as some styles which have limited competitions. Tomiki style, for example, has matches using tanken (short swords) with dull blades, and specific rules for scoring points.

Also, some trainees like to test each other to see if they can make their techniques work against other trainees who are resisting with full power, and vice-versa. This is constructive in moderation since any weaknesses and defects in technique become immediately clear, as long as the primary goals of perfecting technique and developing cordial relationships with other trainees is maintained in the forefront.

However, these diversions are not comparable to the type of competitions found in karate and other martial arts in which a contestant is free to use a variety of techniques in a relatively spontaneous manner for the express purpose of winning a victory over another contestant.

An official explanation for the lack of competition in Aikido is that this particular martial art is based on harmony, and competition is the antithesis of its primary objective. Although this is certainly valid, a brief review of the derivation of Aikido from older martial art forms will show that there is also a very practical reason for discouraging Aikido trainees from going at each other flat out.

An interesting little book entitled "Judo, Appendix Aikido", by Kenji Tomiki (the founder of the above referenced Tomiki style of Aikido), which was published in 1956, includes a chart showing classes of "Judo" technique. These are classified into two main categories, "Aiki techniques" and "Randori techniques".

The Aiki techniques are described as a "system of techniques in the applying of which it is considered most ideal not to be seized by the opponent", and include "Kansetsu techniques" (bending or twisting joints) and "Atemi techniques" (attacking vital points).

The Randori techniques are described as a "system of techniques to be applied by seizing hold of each other", and include grappling techniques and throwing techniques.

Although Tomiki considers Judo to include both classes of techniques, he writes that "practice in these techniques of attacking the vital points and bending or twisting the joints is not to be carried on by means of contests as in the case of the randori techniques, for from the nature of those techniques it is attended with danger".

Different martial arts focus on different aspects of applying and controlling force (karate emphasizes atemi, judo emphasizes grappling and throwing, etc.). In general, however, if a martial art is to provide a forum for competition which minimizes the possibility of death and serious injury, the forum must necessarily include rules which prohibit the more dangerous techniques. This was implemented in the case of judo by allowing only randori techniques in contests.

Aikido went in the opposite direction from Judo. To quote from "Traditional Aikido", by Morihiro Saito, Vol. V, "It is a well-known fact that matches are prohibited in Aikido. This is because Aikido has inherited a number of lethal techniques from its Founder, which render matches too dangerous an exercise, and also because the art purports to place no restrictions on every conceivable movement.

If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry.

Even if only empty-handed techniques are allowed, the techniques inherent with Aikido are too terrific to make Ukemi (rolls and somersaults in defense) possible. True, such Ukemi against throwing is made possible deliberately in training sessions. However, execution of techniques becomes uninhibited in matches and the dangers involved are obvious. The answer to the question of why Aikido is not identified with a sport or a contest is simple".

No single martial art can provide everything, and Aikido sacrifices competition in favor of including potentially dangerous techniques which were originally developed for lethal combat and handed down from our predecessors. Fortunately, there are many excellent martial art styles which offer competition and are available for persons who are so oriented.

All people are different, and those who are interested in martial arts should seek out a style which best suits their personality and goals. If one martial art does not provide everything they are looking for, they may consider training in several.

A good strategy is to select the most apparently suitable martial art as primary, and train long enough to develop a high level of proficiency. Then, seek out other martial arts and incorporate their teachings into the primary system. This is, in fact, an excellent way to become a true and well rounded martial artist.

Louis,

May I be so bold as to strongly suggest putting down the books and heading to a martial arts school and trying it out?

Charles

I went to an aikido dojo today and I signed up for classes charles...:D

Louis,

I have been in the martial arts for 20 years. I like to think that as your progress in whatever art you choose to follow that you will develop a level that allows your character to shine through.

I have noticed that people who have spent many years studying budo can and will exhibit extraordinary technique and control in the same instance. Whether or not a technique kills, maims, or controls is a matter of choice to a person at this level.

I would like to believe that this is pervasive through most of the martial arts.

My training in other arts, IMHO, has helped me provide a more realistic environment for my students when stepping outside traditional kata.

Louis,

Who on Earth do you think you're talking to? You're not well informed, you have misunderstood much, and you are delivering a lecture on a forum frequented by people who are very well informed indeed.

On the subject of competition, why not check out the search facility, you'll find there have been several lengthy threads in the past.

Congratulations on finding a dojo; now that you're beginning to do some training, why not post on things you actually experience. (If you'll read the forums a bit, you'll find there are quite a few beginners who make valuable contributions to the forum.)

Sean

x

Louis, it appears that you are quoting some source in your post. Would you be so kind as to let us know the source of the quote in your post.

Thanks,

Mel Barker

I dont like the manner you are talking in boy...aikido teaches you to respect others...Im not misunderstood because ive done length research on it...I even asked the instructor at the dojo arent there competitions in aikido and he said no and he explained it to me...have respect for your peeps boy...

A lot of people say that. I have yet so see it proven.

Seems to me that life in general teaches you to respect others. Whether you learn the lesson and pass the test is another matter...

you respect the people in your dojo correct? there you go, point proven...its something you already have learned, so no instructor needs to tell you that...its basically like this, you already know do this before you get into aikido because that is one of thw many things aikido teaches you, but you should already have known that...its basically called manners...:eek:

Oh dear, all this talk of manners, and look how you reply to Sean.

Unfortunately for you he is correct. What exactly was the aim of your post? Preaching to aikidoka about what they already do? Research is fine, but make your own opinion.

This is a tired argument, which is amusing because it isn't really an argument at all. Aikido is an umbrella. Shodokan Aikido has competition. Others do not. Therefore, there ia competition in Aikido. If you have no interest in competition, don't choose Shodokan, but accept the fact that it exists. If you don't, then it really makes no difference to anyone anyway. We'll all keep training happily in whatever style we have chosen.

The chart is here.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

Still chuckling that a man who has yet to step on the mat is lecturing Sean on politeness. But please note that Shodokan randori is not divided into randori techniques and aiki techniques.

you dont make any sense huh? what does me not stepping on the mat have anything to do with seans politeness? aikido teaches you to respect others and I feel his statements were smartass...respecting others and their opinions and what aikido is about...one of the mant aspects of it anyways...

Louis,

The rule on these forums is to treat each other with respect, but our opinions are not afforded the same protection.

I considered your opinion to be a bit half-baked, and I was excercising my right to say so. (In fact, it didn't even seem to be an opinion as such, just so much regurgitated second-hand information.) That is what debate and discussion is. But in doing so I was endevouring to treat you personally with respect.

I guess you dont understand the distinction, since in reply you went straight for immature (and rather feeble) personal abuse. Ah well.

Not everybody's opinion on what "aikido is about" carries equal weight. For your information, reading a few websites and maybe a book or two, and having a single conversation with your local instructor does not constitute "length research" [sic].

There are people posting here (I'm not one of them, btw.) who've been training hard for decades, now that is lengthy research.

There are also complete beginners and even 'not-yet' beginners like yourself making valid and interesting contributions. Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from reading their posts and contrasting them to your own.

Sean

x

I think this thread is a great example of how one can lose their centre (and manners... and technique) in the face of resistance. Parallels mat training in many respects :)

Maybe Louis has helped prove that there IS some good to competition/resistance training in Aikido, as we learn more and more how to effectively execute and adapt our technique while under the pressure of resistance, without letting it all fall apart. I think some Shodokan training is exactly what Louis needs :)

Anyone can respect another when they are being nice and cooperative, it's bringing the harmony out of a state of conflict and resistance that shows us whether we really understand what we mean when we say Aikido is about harmony.

Just a few rambling thoughts. Will return to my state of lurkdom now :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

Thanks Larry, that's a very good point to remember.

*Phil

LOL

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How old are you louis?

Well said Larry. Please ramble more and lurk less.

Mel Barker

Re: aikido and competition
 

What you are quoting came from a book Louis quoted, so his age has nothing to do with it.

Re: aikido and competition
 

Um Devin - you do realize that the last time someone posted to this thread was nearly a year ago.

In any case - it wasn't just the quote which brought forth the mirth.

Re: aikido and competition
 

What WOULD an NHB Aikido romp look like? Aikido initiates no offensive techniques!

So, let's start the match with both contestants gripping the gi. I'd imagine there'd be an initial scuffle to get a lock, maybe a throw attempt (unsuccessful) countered with some close striking, and then they would undoubtedly separate. This brings us back to the initial problem.

Any match would have to be Aikido versus, or Aikido would have to be augmented with some assault techniques.

//

Aikido in MMA - if i were successful, it would already be there. There is a large difference between what works on the average joe, and what works against a skilled opponent. It is much easier to defend many techniques than execute them.

I knew someone who was a big proponent of stomping out the knee. They claimed it could quickly end any fight.

In NHB, there is no rule preventing you from going out there, stomping some knee, and collecting your paycheck. The reason you don't see it is that it's too easy to defend. Stomping the knee relies on the ignorant posture of an opponent - if they know how to stand correctly with respect to their opponent (or even just happen to be standing that way) it won't work.

That said, I do know of incidents where people have stomped knees "on the street." Most people you meet won't be trained.

//

I was thinking, what are the features of barred holds (strikes ignored) that make them too dangerous?

Maybe if we examine commonality among them there can be some insight.

//

Are you training to fight in a cage, training for self defense off the mat, or training for spiritual enlightenment? These goals are not mutually exclusive, however most would argue you can very legitimately abandon some in the pursuit of others.

You don't need to fight in a cage to be good on the streets. You don't need to train self defense to achieve spiritual enlightenment.

Or do you?

//

"aikido teaches you to respect others..." (this is a "20 year" technique)

//

Will I ever get tired of threads debating competition? No... I don't think so...

Re: aikido and competition
 

so, as a matter of interest, how is Jason doing with his aikido in MMA?

Re: aikido and competition
 

After checking my favorite website it looks as though he hasn't fought recently.

I have the suspicion that if whatever he does works, it will look different what's in from the average dojo, and people will be inclined to say "it isn't Aikido."

(not that I agree or disagree with that)

Re: aikido and competition
 

Of course it does.
Well then it would be Judo. Aikido is really done before the initial grip. NHB of course doesn't involve only one form of fighting.
Well that is why in Shodokan randori we use the tanto. Of course we also have toshu randori (both unarmed) that can work pretty good.
The big lesson learnt in Shodokan randori. These beutiful techniques are damm difficult to pull off against someone who knows as much as you do.

Re: aikido and competition
 

What is with all these old posts coming back to life? :freaky: I wonder if it has to do with the similar threads box.

What is all of this stuff about aikido not initiating the first technique? Most of the techniques I've learned involve attacking first and having the uke successfully block that first attack. (if he can't, then why waste time using waza on a schmuck that you could just pummel? :D )

Re: aikido and competition
 

What sort of technique do you use to enter in on someone who is simply on guard and not moving towards you?

I know Aikido involves punching and kicking in training, but I've never seen it sparred and called Aikido. (This being a fault of those who define and restrict what Aikido is.) Do Aikidoka spar with intent to clock each other first, rather than be the one who enters in on or blends with the energy of the other? I only ever see the second. You are right about grappling range being a little late for aikido, but I'm a bit stuck on what would bring two Aikidoka against each other. I could see one person attacking an Aikidoist, who then responds, but is the person initating doing "Aikido" as most know it? Then again, I have not trained Shodokan. I'm no expert at all in any of this, just exploring the possibilities. Tell me more about this toshu randori.

Tanto sparring, as I have seen it in videos, seems like a very good thing. After I posted I realized I had totally neglected to mention it, as it's some of the best "Alive" training I've seen in the art. I should have mentioned I was restricting my thoughts to hand to hand just for simplicitie's sake.


As for the threads coming back from the dead... maybe it's time to invest in some holy water and a chainsaw?

Re: aikido and competition
 

As for how to attack, it depends on how open they are. It's hard to explain what goes through my head. :confused: It's more of something that you feel than anything.

We only do sparring every once in a while in my dojo. It is, however, a part of the shodan test.


I think sparring done properly is an excellent tool. I would be very leary of anyone who claims a high level who hasn't actually gone and had to 'make it work' in some situation or another. You learn very quickly that just waiting, backing up, or trying to grab fails horribly. (I think that more training in sparring would be a big help to people who just say ma-ai or back up to everything)

If you don't learn how to attack, I don't think you can learn to defend.

Re: aikido and competition
 

The first technique in Budo Renshu (from 1933) has Nage initiating the waza by attacking uke with a strike to the face. This technique is practiced by Tomiki folks as the first waza in the Kory Goshin no Kata (Old Style Self Defense). Now most Aikido techniques tend to be practiced as Go no sen (reactive) but sen no sen (seizing the initiative) timing has always been part of what we do. I don't believe Aikido is an aggressive art but that does not preclude us from, once we find ourselves in a sticky situation, from using all at our disposal.

That said. Toshu randori is probably the closest to actual fighting we can get and subsequently is much more difficult to do safely and with meaning. By safety I mean not getting hurt (duh) and by meaning I mean to improve our Aikido techniques. Basically this means we exclude situations where it could degenerate from its purpose to something else.

So with tanto randori the initiative lies heavily in favor of tanto - with toshu there is no distinction. Since we don't want to train our Judo techniques we preclude grabbing the Dogi but all else is fair, same with closed punches and kicks. You want to integrate everything into a whole - cross-train. The only other rule that we have is that both members have to try their best. It's no good standing back and saying look at me I'm doing Aikido.

Whether or not you are doing tanto or toshu randori it is important to increase the level of resistance slowly. Start from none and move up. By slowly I mean over the course of weeks rather than minutes. The ones who get it look very relaxed and fluid, they probe for openings and explode with perfect timing.

I've seen similar exercises in some special Aikiaki dojos - where nage and uke continuously switch roles with techniques not taken to completion. In other words one person does something and then the other person counters with a waza and the counter is countered ... I've also seen more common is transitioning techniques where you move from one uncompleted technique to another. This is generally what's happening in Toshu randori except the idea is to take to completion everything you try and at the same time to shut the other guy down.

By mutual agreement you can introduce variations. Allow kicks and punches, dogi grabbing. I prefer not to in that I find even with these restrictions it takes effort not to get caught up in a wrestling match. However, in my little group if you go to ground keep on going. Honbu would frown on that but I just enjoy a little wrastling.

So Chris please try and get back to us.

Re: aikido and competition
 

Chris,

Check out my old posts as I have describe both tanto randori and toshu many times before.

But basically, toshu involves uke and tori coming and starting to do techniques on each other. It does not matter who attack first, just throw something and then when tori does a techniques react to it so it doesn't work and you are in a position to do a technique. Repeat till one of you manages to get a technique that works. The winning stage is not getting a technique working (it's boring and kata does that), it's making a technique flow from one to another.

Tanto randori involves testing your Aikido against someone who fully resists you with all his might and wants to club you one. Of course, it's done with a safety net -- at least in Shodokan. It's an exercise to see where you lack understanding of Aikido. Winning in tanto randori is having your favorite technique fail. It shows you what you have left to learn.

For all the years of Aikido I have done, I won every single match of toshu and randori because my goal is to understand Aikido.

Hope that helps.

Re: aikido and competition
 

"Um Devin - you do realize that the last time someone posted to this thread was nearly a year ago."
:blush: I really should start looking at the dates on the posts before I reply.

Re: aikido and competition
 

I think that its good people are looking at old posts...it means they are researching a bit.

I remember once on e-budo I replied to a post from 3 or 4 years earlier...boy was I blushing!

Ron :)

Re: aikido and competition
 

Even though the reply may have come a little late - what book was Louis quoting? Who was the author? It appears they have a very interesting view of what Aikido is supposed to be and what it sacrifices for the sake of handing down "lethal" techniques. Just wondering is all, it's interesting when people make sweeping claims, publish them and then those who don't know better go read it and make the same assumptions.

LC:ai::ki:

Re: aikido and competition
 

as a humble gesture,i would offer that the good people of aiki web pettition to have a fight between either roy jones and myself,or sudo genki and my self for styles that would not force a negetive fight.then you would see ueshiba juku (best description of the tense of mr. ueshiba's aiki that would be used in nhb.

Re: aikido and competition
 

....If I recall correctly, you're bigger than Genki and smaller than Jones JR. Why not an agressive middleweight ("Charuto", Hughes, Lawler, Tiki, etc..)?

Regards,

Paul

Re: aikido and competition
 

well,I hover about 185 -190 ,genki the last time i saw him in person,might have been 175 -180 ,but it's more a question of styles to be conducive to exhibit technique.like i'm sure if i fought dan ''the beast'' he would do every thing in his power to shoot very low ankle picks to drag the fight to the ground ,crowd the fence ,and grab the fence just to pull a win .not caring to show something worth noticing,but to pull the win.roy jones is an artist.sudo genki is an artist.they are people i think are always going to be interesting ,of course the same is true of lee murray.but i also think i would make bob sapp look like the perfect uke,because he is fertile for aiki waza.just dont use fighters who fight negetively(zzzz)boring.

Re: aikido and competition
 

Some would say that Roy Jones Jr. fights so defensively that he might qualify for a 'negative' fighter. Frankly, he's so cautious that I have a hard time seeing someone pull off 'aiki' style techniques, whatever those might be...

Still like to watch him fight though...

RT

Re: aikido and competition
 

Ron, I like everything you say very much. I can't help but feel sometimes that I my ultimate "aiki fruitiness" is that I believe if one does Aikido in the way their heart mind body and world tells them is best, then no matter what they do is Aikido. It's coming to terms with the fact that I suppose I'm an undenyable progressive - looking for new ways to train, better, harder, safer, more realistically - ultimately more fun.

What destroys my Aikido is when I feel as though what I am doing is in bad faith. That I go against my own in the hopes that my path will come through others. I'm afraid that can't be the case for me... maybe I am wrong, and it isn't Aikido, but it will be what I do.

After I realized that it all became simple - figure out what works, train it as hard as possible, and find ways to make it safe to train harder. I'm thrilled to hear what your dojo does =).

//

Jason, you will have to convince Genki first, after Bushidot I think it's his day to pick and choose. I will certainly sign your petition if he agrees but you cannot get funding for training, I think it would be a good fight.

//

How is someone who does whatever they can do to win not an artist?

Why is ancient gung fu more creative than modern ground and pound. One seems a far newer and unexpected technique to the martial arts world (despite it not being ancient asian and therefore somehow exotic). To look at fights, not as the function of individual fighters, but as developments of art - ground and pound is an expressive new tendril. It, in time (perhaps already), will be countered by the next evolution of creativity, and this will be marked by victory.

Art in fighting is a relationship between the styles of the fighters and the audience, and right now, thick efficient veracity is a powerful statment against what has been perpetuated for so long in the martial arts. Although you may disagree, many feel that an ankle pick is still very much something worth showing.

Moreover, it provides the excellent oppertunity for the next revolution of the art, but only if it has established itself as a dominant technique. So, although some fights may bore you in their repetition to conservative victory, it is this boring repetition that will make the day when a new and successful counter emerges all the more incredible and amazing.

//

Can you tell us more about Aiki in NHB like contests?

Re: aikido and competition
 

Well put ANY traditional styles of striking against eachother in cage (let's take some mad-parrot-claw wu-shu or blaharyu-karate) and it still looks like bad kickboxing. Put any styles of traditional grappling -based arts against eachother in a cage (whatever jiu-jitsu, silat or whatever, Aikido included) and it looks like very bad wrestling/judo accompanied by extremly bad kickboxing...

Re: aikido and competition
 

Jorgen, I think that very thing is evidence that the ways and attitude of training in those "traditional" arts have been abandoned and distorted in modern times.

I refuse to believe that anyone was that inept and illogcal in their execution in the past; they would have died off too quickly. I think, with the peace to train without ever having to proove yourself that modernity has brought, traditional arts have quickly rotted into little more than dance. I should think their origional masters would be ashamed by what is now being passed off as an expert.

But, all is not lost. I think a current Judo master would be quite appriciated by the past JuiJitsu masters. I think the past masters would be far more inclined towards the average "modern" Judo student than the average student of what is taught as "Traditional Jujitsu" (no offense meant to those who train at good JJ schools, you should be more aware than I of the many bad schools out there claiming the name JJ).

This is no critique of the arts as a whole, though, just martial effectiveness. The fight is not everything.