Principles of pinning
 

There is a quite amount of techniques in aikido that in the end contain pinning. I'm interested in your opinions what the characteristic of effective pinning in aikido are. Are they the same as in other Budo arts or fighting sports?

Recently I watched in TV how police in different towns evacuated protesters from parks, and sometimes it was needed up to 5 police officers to pin and transport one protester (who of course didn't want to gladly cooperate). In this light, how you see claims that in aikido you can pin somebody with one finger (or even one hand)….

Again, please no IP/IS nonsens discussion here.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Most common to rare...

Pain and mechanical leverage.
Dynamic intent (to continue attack on uke's chushin)
Passive reshaping of uke's atari.
Absolute harmonization with uke's energy.

The first two is probably the most understood method and the easiest to be overcome. Depending on uke's determination and complete obstinance to the fact that nage can attack him at will in any pinning position, which basically translates well to police work. Uke here generally disregards the officers ability to trash him during a pin because of potential law suits.

The 2nd two are ideal methods that does not force uke into anything and in fact puts him against himself. Some other arts do get very similar here... I'm thinking certain Silat can lock up even multiple opponents without dynamic intervention... But thenthey don't explain the secret very well.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Szczepan, that's two threads you've started so far, today, where you've signed off your initial post with a "none of this nonsense IP/IS discussion." Couldn't you be a bit more polite about it? Just say something like "I'd like to discuss this within the parameters of Doshu's aikido" or modern Aikido.

Thanks!

Re: Principles of pinning
 

This is off topic and should be send as a private message.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Oh I don't know. So much said loud and clear in so few words. A lessen to be learned perhaps.

It's a type of Kiai wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

You listed very high level categories. Could you add specific principles for each of them?

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Basically I would say they share a lot with other arts ways of pinning. Aikido can focus more on the energy though.

I don't need t'v' to see such things as you mention but we most remeber something here. Practice, refinement, more practice, more refinement, a process. You could say that first when learning pins it's the how to's and practice but what does it show? It shows it's possible.

Then when you come across a more uncooperative person and find you need to improve you then have to practice more and refine it more, and on and on. Until you may become an expert at pinning, a master at pinning where it doesn't matter how uncooperative the opponent is. It's all a process and the same in any walk of life.

So someone in Aikido who is that good could make it look easy obviously.

Your final question on one finger, as per Tohei maybe in the old american documentary. Well you would have to lower your parameters on the thread for that one now wouldn't you. It's not something the average joe can do and would venture into the deeper Ki aspects at least or even into the field of pressure points in another art maybe.

Regards.G.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Graham,
I'm expecting here very technical discussion, not only some very high level divagations.
Lets start with goals to direct discussion in right directions. Once the goals are defined we can establich the right training methods to achieve these goals.

What are the goals of pinning in aikido?

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Drill the shoulder into the mat.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

The goal of pinning is to extend in a relaxed manner so uke can not get up. Uke should feel unable to move because they can't find the rest of their body to get up with.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

THOSE ARE INTERNAL...I INSIST THIS POST BE BANNED !!:eek:

although I admit to thinking the same....:)

Re: Principles of pinning
 

They can become external if pushed far enough ;)

Re: Principles of pinning
 

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Nice description.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

42;)

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Aikido pins are not very secure from the physical/mechanical standpoint. That is to say, using only your body to apply an Aikido style pin is not very effective. However if you add the addition of a weapon, the pins have a very high level of security.

Aikido pins are of the type where one can easily apply the pin and still hold a weapon. Further the pins found in Aikido do a very good job of keeping the person you are pinning from using any potential weapons they may have. Further, Aikido pins are done in a way that allows nage to leave the pin rather quickly. Which is of paramount importance if one is facing multiple attackers.

While Aikido pins do lack the physical control found in many unarmed grappling styles, they do offer many advantages that wouldn't be found in their unarmed grappling counterpart: ability to control and use your weapon, ability to keep the person you are pinning from using their weapons while they are in your pin, and ease of escape for nage if something changes.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

I don't have a very deep understanding of this but it's such an interesting discussion I'll join anyway :).

I haven't worked as a police officer, but I wonder if it's partly because they will be blamed if they injure people, and people under arrest even when pinned often keep struggling against the pins in ways that will easily injure themselves? Either because the person arrested consciously decides they are willing to get injured, or because (from lack of experience or from adrenaline) they don't realize they're going to be injured, or because they are in a kind of animalistic state of mind where they respond to pain or to being 'trapped' by fighting harder?

With more police it looks like they can overwhelm them so entirely that they can't even move enough to struggle.

So I don't know, if my theory is right, does that mean if the police weren't concerned about injury, does that mean the people could get away if there were fewer officers? Or does it 'just' mean that they would likely end up injured but they still couldn't escape? Or maybe even one police officer could do it safely most of the time, but not 100% of the time, and there's no reason not be more sure and add more police since they're there?

Or is it because a person being arrested usually doesn't give a committed attack :) (half joking, but maybe not entirely - it does sees different to try to pin someone who's just standing there).

Re: Principles of pinning
 

O.k. The goals pretty obvious isn't it? To immobilize.

Regards.G.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

for the ikkyo pin, as long as the palm is upturned (facing opposite the mat) it is gravity that's preventing uke from getting up. even with minimal contact (eg tegatana cutting ukes inside elbow, no 2 hands grabbing) uke cant get up. you need to prevent uke to turn his palm down.

in order to prevent uke from sliding away, the pin is also just slightly above 90 degrees with a slight bent in uke's elbow, the arm shouldnt totally be straight. one knee in the rib cage or shoulder pocket and the other in the arm.

If you get all the above details right I think you can use one or 2 fingers pushing in ukes inside elbow for control....I havnt tried it but I think it'll work given that I use only one tegatana, again if all the above criteria are met since you only help to make the conditions ripe for gravity to work its wonders. You as nage are only a small part in the pin.

For the other pins, it is more about uke damaging himself more if he tries to look for a release. case in point is the sankyo where nage makes a standing sankyo, uke tries to approach nage but damages himself more even if nage does nothing. This true for other pins as well.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Mine is a low-level understanding, but when I think of principles of pinning, I think of entering through and adding to some localized hyper-extention until it affects the whole structure as much as possible; while running into an imoveable object (the ground or something extending from it).
Like others with more experience, I also see pinning as a great conditioning tool. In the past, good pins have corrected musculoskeletal problems, making me much more flexible; with greater range of motion and power delivery. Good pins and throws seem to have a way of showing me where my tension is located, helping my ukemi in general.
My tuppence.
Take care,
Matt

Re: Principles of pinning
 

I would'nt be surprised by this. The one finger I saw on youtube was tohei sensei pinning a person the finger pinning the persons temple. I havnt tried this but it is not you that is doing the work but gravity, you are only a helper, a part of the equation but not the complete solution.

Another good example is endo sensei. in his ikkyo pin, he doesnt grab anything. he just puts light pressure on the elbow. he even lets uke try to get up and times the contact in putting pressure again to offbalance uke to pin him again. this is concrete example that ukes opponent is not nage but mostly gravity.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

You see multiple police officers trying to subdue a resisting suspect frequently. A part of that was already mentioned in that having additional officers often reduces the chance of the suspect or arresting officer from being injured. A well-trained officer can usually restrain a resisting suspect by himself, but if additional help is present, why take the chance? The comedian Ron White tells a story about being thrown out of a NYC bar one evening by five bouncers. He said he didn't know how many it was going to take to kick his ass, but he knew how many they were going to use.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

I'd like to add: the more spread out "uke's" structure, the less pressure is needed to control it. If they're very hyper/over-extened, it's easier to use "one finger" to pin. My understanding, though, is that many one-finger pins are actually closer to being palm pins with the index finger extended (using "yonkyo knuckle").
I think part of the problem many of the officers have (I'm only guessing; from what I've seen in video) is that they're trying to force a restraining technique too soon and they rely on brute strength to over-power. They often seem to use some immobilization technique and then try to pick them up with it to move them...which seems hard against someone who is "dead-weighting." I would think it better to roll them over, cuff'em, then lift one arm while another officer lifts the other.
Not that this doesn't happen too...just thinking of the few videos I've seen.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

No, that is not internal, it is inside. The two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. It has nothing to do with in yo, fire and water, movement within stillness, or six directions.

I am strictly referring to the physical benefits of a good stretch, something that is found in a variety of Eastern and Western external training methods.

While I have felt IHTBF (It Had to Be Felt), ICDI (I Can't Do It).:p

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Good observation Matthew. Frequently officers will use a leg sweep technique or a single arm takedown (think variation of ikkyo) to move an offender to the ground. What happens too often is that they don't move with the suspect and find they are trying to hold the offender's weight against gravity. The result is the individual will end up face down with his arms underneath himself. That's where it starts to get interesting and dangerous to all. With the hands and arms uncontrolled, the suspect remains a threat and the officer(s) have to get the arms freed and then secured. In most cases that when you see officers pulling on the arms and giving distraction blows. Once the arms are freed and handcuffs applied, the best practice is to roll the individual over to his back, sit him up, and while supporting his upper body, allow him to get his own feet under himself and stand up to be moved under his own power.

By contrast, in aikido practice Nage generally remains in control of at least one limb all the way to the ground, and with that limb can control Uke's movement once down. Check out any of the Robert Koga videos on YouTube. He has adapted classic aikido technique into something much simpler for law enforcement to use successfully.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

What song are they dancing to?

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Zornik's "Pin Me Down"
Wait - do you know me?
Wait - before you pin me down
Wait - do you know me?
Wait - before you pin me down

Or, maybe Reba McEntire's "Aiki (p) on Loving You."

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Thank you, Michael! I really enjoyed reading about Robert Koga and checking out a few of his videos! I like his straight-forward approach to waza! I'll have to take a closer look when I have a bit more time: e seems like an interesting man who's lived an interesting life...I always feel a certain facination and connection with Japanese-Americans who were interred at "camp" being that my wife's family shared that experience.
Thanks again!
Take care,
Matt

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Something I have observed when watching "COPS" or other, is the officers have the offender in a position that will 'cause' them to struggle, and be yelling 'stop resisting.' I know that there are certain pins - applied a certain way that I am going to move, even if my mind says comply.

I don't know if it's the adrenaline of the situation, or they just don't recognize it, On the other hand while backing off slightly just might make it easier to comply, it also might give the offender another opportunity. I don't have the answer - just one of those things I think when I watch some of the takedowns...

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Good Question.

Goal: My goal, aikido or no aikido is to control the person with minimal effort and maximum efficiency.

This does a couple of things for me. It controls the expenditure of my energy which will most likely be needed for other things and hopefully it reduces the struggle I will have to deal with which reduces my exposure to more stuff. It also works to keep my mind more clear so I can continue making the best decisions possible.

When teaching takedowns and pins to soldiers one thing I have noticed is the over investment of self into the situation. Too much of it...to much emphasis on a particular joint or arm, to much emotional investment in that one limb or person. It also tends to create a feedback loop that the "uke" or non-compliant person gets energy from and thus either continues to fight or escalates.

So, by reducing the proprioceptions and feedback loop the person experiences, the less of a fight I get all the way around.

I could really careless about the ethical concerns for his well being, he is in charge of that based on the decisions he wants to make. However, I want to keep him on the calm and disoriented side of things if I can so his decisions are along the lines that I want them to be which is doing what I say. Ironically, the less investment, input I give him, the more likely he is to go easy..which is a good thing cause it minimizes stuff for me to deal with.

I agree with Chris that when you throw weapons in the mix that the pins we traditionally see in Aikido make much more sense and form and shape tend to be more present.

However, for riot control or crowd control...well there are so many variables going on there that lead to the form and shape of what we see when we have 5 guys taking down one guy.

Alot of it comes from the level of training and skill of the officers involved in the situation and how they have trained collectively together.

It also depends on the goal of the protester as well which in many cases is not to fight back, but to simply be a dead fish or cause active/passive resistance. (Ever try picking up someone that wants to be dead weight?)

I addition within the context of OODA, there is alot going on in the dynamics of crowd control that interfere with the process. Lots of people, at what point are you in the OODA cycle? When do you escalate your use of force and how? It is not so easy I think. Couple that with the level of training of your police officers and you end up with the form and shape you see of 5 guys holding down one.

THey must also consider the level of investment and risk they are facing. It might be better for a couple of guys to takedown a non-compliant person vice one person. It is about the end state and not about the form.

Also officers will tend to hyperfocus under stress on the biggest problem of struggle..hence why the will all dogpile on the one.

IMO, there is alot going on in the dynamics of the situation dealing with crowd control that leads to the form and shape we see there.

Back to the relevancy of AIkido. I find it very relevant if trained properly. My goal and why I train in AIki arts is to reduce feel, feedback, and proprioception. This gives me more time to think and creates space for me to make decisions...and makes things safer for me dealing with a non-compliant person.

I know we don't want to get into an IP/IS conversation here, but I do think it is important to point out that to be honest, I see this as being the important reason for training in Aikido. If I have good structure, if I have the ability to connect and keep my opponent from being able to feed off me, then I can stay deeper within and way ahead of his OODA process and have room to make better decisions about how the "dance" is going down.

So, if I can first create this in my own body and own mind...then I can better control the conditions and shape things the way I want them.

A tall order for sure and one that is very difficult to acheive I think if you look at it this way.

So what you see on the street is very low skill stuff dealing with macro movement and gross motor skills under stress which will most definitlely look different than what we see in an aikido dojo. Hence why stuff like Koga is necessary in order to address the issue from a physical standpoint.

However, what we want to practice is something that is much more refined and might lead to a more skillfull application. Alas, most of us would be better at doing Koga first so we can understand first how to deal with gross movements and the stress of non-compliance prior to spending years wasting our time in a dojo doing crappy stuff that really leads to not much of anything except a mess of confusion.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

I'd like to call attention to some jujitsu pins used by the British army introduced by one of their COs from the world war era. Of pins, they are not exactly standard types, but used for practically immobilizing a prisoner whilst allowing the soldier to remain mobile and dangerous.

One of which I recall implicitly was to have the prisoner climb rope like on a pole or a small tree then have him sit straight down without releasing his leg grip. This pin is excruciating and prevents anyone, absolutely anyone from standing up or releasing themselves. Prolonged periods of enduring this will of course result in permanent disability, which back in those days were the least of their problems I guess.

For the modern world we live in, I guess attacking centerline would be as basic as you could get in terms of principle.

As for those touch/awase type pins... Like I said, obtuse people will get put of it because they'll run away. Most aikido with good ukemi though won't get out of it because they need to ensure the safety if their necks even as they try to escape. Which to me is kind of weird in a way. Since being pin means it's the end of story anyway.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Joseph, you will rarely see much skill on "Cops". You will occasionally see an officer who is highly skilled, but most often they simply aren't. The average law enforcement officer was trained in his academy how to do a limited number of techniques, with very little training regarding the principles that make the techniques effective, while they are taught the principles of law relating to use of force. After the academy they might get a refresher every few years if they are lucky. As a result, even those who were superb in their basic training lose the skills over the years. By contrast martial artists practice their skills frequently and spend a lot of time developing the underlying principles.

You are also correct in what I would describe as "Mixed Martial Messages" in these situations. It is difficult at best to comply with instructions to surrender your arms when you have several officers placing body weight on your torso for example, and the struggle just goes on. Aikido pins aren't perfect either, but they do provide a foundation for good pins during arrest and control situations.

I still believe that a strong background in aikido would be beneficial to law enforcement officers across the country IF they would be willing to practice their skills. Therein lies the rub. Perishable skills simply deteriorate without practice. That is one of the great benefits of the Koga Method. Koga Sensei's material is the foundation of defensive tactics training in most agencies here in California and the basis for state required training. Simple competence is enough and a great degree of skill or athleticism isn't necessary.....but it has to be practiced. If not, you have interesting TV, but poor police practice.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Exactly!From my experience this is the most important part of an imobilization.Make sure that the shoulder is pinned on the mat (on the ground in the case of a real fight) and that it stays there!

Re: Principles of pinning
 

And yet, despite your view that Internal and inside are completely different, since the IS people spiral & wind their bodies to stretch and increase performance of fascia could it be possible that this might also be significant in the choice of selected Aikido immobilizations?

One mans good stretch is another mans internal strength training I guess..and maybe has more to do with in yo (you mentioned it 1st not me ;-) and all the other elements of IS training than is visible at first sight.

Perhaps another example of things hidden in plain sight.

Cheers

D

Re: Principles of pinning
 

I also like very much simple approach, following principle KISS. However this will be too simplistic, just pin the shoulder. As in aikido there are no rules, attacker can do literally anything to go out of pin. That why I appreciate Michael and Kevin input, because their real life experiences follows similar 'no rules' scenarios. In this context, I like to think that from technical point of view the control of whole body structure is a minimum as opposed to concentrate on only one point of the body.
Real life experience tend to demonstrate that such control by one person can be achieved only with big difficulty and carries out a lot of risk. Nonetheless in aikido it is some kind of standard and it is approached as an easy routine.

But this discussion can give us some partial answer for question HOW.

Now, still we should ask question WHY.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

That surly can be one possible goal, thanks!

Re: Principles of pinning
 

Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?

Re: Principles of pinning
 

I like very much and appreciate your comment.
I had similar approach, however I realized it is directly from Daito ryu context. Back at that time ppl carried weapons so it was well placed in the actual context.

Not we are doing aikido, and as anyone can see, O sensei introduced a lot of changes to the techniques if compared with Diato ryu. I like to think - context changed, goals changed, so techniques must be adapted, otherwise it becomes nonsense from practical point of view. so I'm asking myself, what is the role of pins in aikido?
However many listed by you characteristics are very valid.

Re: Principles of pinning
 

I doubt it very much. aikido pins are not structural pins. Read Chris post.