Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Can you say "Mark Tennenhouse?"

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Or even "John Carlo" or some name like that? Problem is that I was talking about the content of internal strength in koryu arts, not the baddest guy around. Maybe at some time in the future we can convince people that there's a difference between the two, but we need to do it pretty soon before it gets into asking people what pro's they've fought and beat on their fight-card.

Back to our regularly scheduled "internal strength" discussion.

Mike Sigman

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Hi Dan,

Yes...Much like Tennenhouse. Boy, he fell off the planet after his "outing" didn't he?

Toby

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

LOL Who? LOL

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Where can the full account of this be found?

I generally understand that he claimed he'd discovered or invented new dimensions of aikido that far surpassed everything previously known, then, given a chance to show them at AikiExpo '05, he couldn't do a thing.

I'd just like to get the rest of the story.

Best wishes.

David

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

David,

Well, since I videotaped the whole thing for Stan Pranin, I pretty much observed the resulting train wreck (pun) up close and personal.

In a nutshell, Tennenhouse claimed he had all the answers to "fix" aikido. He showed up wearing a black belt, but after watching him about 30 seconds it was obvious he was no yudansha. He could not execute any orthodox aikido waza with any competency. This led me to conclude that the reason he was trying to "fix" aikido was because he couldn't actually do any aikido.

Among the most illuminating moments was one where Mr Tennenhouse attempted to do a basic Ikkyo on George Ledyard on Saturday. Tennenhouse hadn't a clue and mind you, and George was not giving him a hard time. Tennenhouse never listened to George's attempt to help him, finally got frustrated over his repeated failures and attempted a charging double leg tackle...Yes...against George Ledyard back in his 300lb days. Have you ever seen a car hit a brick wall? Needless to say, the attempt was unsuccessful, George just stood there and Mr Tennenhouse went off to the hospital.....

The following day Tennenhouse complained to me that he was being treated badly by everyone. I was incredulous. I told him he was damn lucky it was an aikido crowd because if he'd pulled this stunt on a judo or karate crowd he'd have gone to the hospital for an extended visit.

Following this debacle I contacted his teacher, a Mr Gotlin, with the assistance of Marc Abrams. Tennenhouse I was informed was only a sankyu, and not a good one at that. He had just prior to the Aiki Expo pleaded for Mr Gotlin to promote him to shodan, but Mr Gotlin refused.

This should be a caution to certain individuals harboring delusions of grandeur, but alas wisdom is not so obstreperous.

Toby

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Full as complete, unbiased and exact? Nowhere.

What he claimed was anything extraordinaire, you can still find some of his writings in Aikido Journal, but he (like many) was more talk than walk and his lack of "zanshin" made him swallow hook, line and sinker at the expo.

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Demetrio,

Why would you assume such a thing? I have the whole incident on video. That's pretty unbiased.

Toby Threadgill

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

That is one heck of an example of delusion + chutzpah taking somebody to the precipice and over!

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Kind of a variation on a old joke. In his case his dogma was run over by his own karma... Self-inflicted wounds yet again.

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Hi Toby,

The video is a part of what happened, there are only 10 MT posts and two blog entries in AJ (and he posted way more and in other sites too) with his claims and ensuing debates. I've been told by another attendant to the expo who was not involved in the MT affaire the behaviour of some of the "good guys" was not especially gentlemanly... and MT version of the incident is not available.

You have a very relevant part of the story videotaped (and, afaik, the video has not been published) but all what happened before, during and after is incomplete and there is some subjectivity in the witnessess and in the participants.

That's why I consider there is not a complete, unbiased and exact account of MT incident.

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Demetrio:

I was there and I was one of those "good guys" involved in the affair. Mr. Threadgill was kind in his description of Mark. He was exact and to the point about mentioning what would have happened if it had not been an Aikido affair. Mark was given more than his fair share. He was given enough rope to tie a hammock or a noose. The one he tied was obvious to all. Lynn was another of those "good guys" who had interactions with Mark. It is very easy for the you to sit back and make those observations without having to have been there. The "complete" and "exact" parts that are missing would simply have placed Mark in a worse light than described. Unbiased? Give me a break. He had more than a fair opportunity to display any degree of competency. The opinions formed were as a direct result of the gross discrepancy between what he wrote about and would he was able to do (more appropriately put as to how much he could not do). So exactly what aspects of that episode do you have a problem with and why?

Marc Abrams

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Hello,

That's somewhat true but this behavior stemmed from Tennenhouse's grandiose belief that he was invited there by Stan Pranin to teach a seminar. Nothing could be further from the truth. Stan merely offered Tennenhouse space to perform a Q&A session. When Tennenhouse refused to answer questions like "What is your rank and experience in aikido", and " Can you please demonstrate a typical Aikido Ikkyo?" things got rather heated, and rightfully so. When he then tried to start teaching a seminar, the situation got worse and I interceded. The mess broke up with Tennenhouse refusing to tell anyone how long he trained, with who and what his rank was.

Tennenhouse was hung by his own petard.

Toby

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

I'm visualizing this... and trying (and failing) to imagine the level of self-delusion that would be required to think something like this would work.... wow.

Katherine

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

And, actually, I know people in Aikido, calm, serene, and very nice people, who would probably have put a world of hurt on someone who would try something like that. Not necessarily intentionally, but sometimes reflexes and reaction kick in before you have a chance to temper the response... And then to try that on someone of George's size and abilities... Yeah, delusion is too kind a word.

Saw a guy repeatedly start to get up after being taken down while the instructor was saying "stay down until I let you back up". The instructor kept releasing the lock because he didn't want to hurt the guy. But after about the third time he just left it on. Didn't crank anything but the guy came up and ran right into it, hurting his shoulder. And he got upset that he was injured. Idiot.

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

Now that's an important point right there that I havn't as yet seen discussed on this forum, recently anyway. The 'hard-headedness' of the uke.

When a technique is done correctly the uke has no choice but to comply. I have watched many demonstrations and been involved in sessions where Ukes were throwing themselves to avoid pain.

On the other hand I can do a soft technique where the uke, through his own resistance and hard headedness tries with all his might to fight it or prove something and ends up hurting.

This point is important to remember I think for it is a major point of Aikido that the uke, when a technique is done properly with care, is the only one who can damage himself through his own resistance.

Regards.G.

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Marc,

I don't have any problem with what happened and why. David asked "Where can the full account of this be found?". In my opinion, the full account can't be found anywhere. There still are bits and pieces around but some data has been lost, some is in private hands and some is not available for those who don't need to know.

What remains is Threadgill Sensei tape (still unpublished afaik), the memories of the people involved (and not everyone who was there has told what, in their opinion, happened) and a handful of posts around the web, so I don't think a complete picture of the incident exists at this moment.

In some years, the MT incident will be only a story like the Judo vs JJ matches in 19th century Japan, Ueshiba vs the firing squad or Sokaku leveling the Kodokan. What happened, how and why we don't really know.

OTOH, you can think it's very easy making observations without having been there, but it's not. What is easy from here is avoiding the emotional involvement of the people who participated so if I were interested in studying the MT incident as a history aficionado, I would have some advantage at mantaining objectivity and neutrality

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Can we see the video?

dps

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

David:

The only copy of the video is privately held by Stanley Pranin. It was made for the sole purpose of documenting the gentleman so as to create an independent record in case some legal issues arose from his appearance at the expo. Since there was nothing of a legal nature that arose after the expo, there was simply no use for the video being shown. As many people have noted, the video would serve no real purpose other than to highlight what people have said previously about that person.

There are people out there who do have some additional video clips of "Mark in Action." I can tell you that at best, they are amusing. At worst, just another clip of someone who thought that he know something, but actually knew nothing.

Regards,

Marc

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Demetrio:

Alas, history tends to be recorded as snippets cut and pasted together. People even have a tendency to view the same video differently.

To me, the larger reality is that Mark should remain as a irrelevant footnote to an event (series of events, really) that helped to change the face of Aikido today. Stanley's legacy and gift to all of us, should remain focused on the positives and not some silly distraction (my own opinion).

Regards,

marc abrams

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

LOL @ people defending trainwrecks like M. Tennenhouse. WTF?

Damn, I haven't heard that name in a long ass time. Good ole' aikido dayz.

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

I actually remember seeing the video. Tennenhouse tried to apply an ikkyo on Lynnn Seiser. Couldn't pull it off. Was that in the video as well?

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Yup,

That was one of my favorite clips! Kind of like watching a train wreck happening :D .

I should be in Tokyo in early June. Let's find a way to meet over some beers, sake,......

Marc

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Hey...Ushiro is in Osaka. You can't make him come over there, desho? :)

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Of course, thats why history is written, rewritten and rewritten again and again. On the tendency to interpret differently the same "facts", you are the psychologist (iirc). Why people gives different interpretations and meanings to the same facts?

Possibly, but for a being an irrelevant footnote he is still used as the mythological example and legendary standard of martial idiocy.

You guys are still carrying him like the young monk was carrying the young lady in the tale. This could mean something... or not.

Focusing in the positives, of course. Was not the MT incident part of the positives?

Regards.

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Defending?

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Demetrio:

Why are you defending this MT bloke? I'm just curious. What things do we have to learn about this trainwreck of a man? Marc and Toby were both there. Are you suggesting that they were embellishing something just so they can purposely defame the man? Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue.

You were told by a guy who was not involved in the MT affair? You ARE told by a people who were INVOLVED in the MT affair--these guys have everything to lose if they were to defame MT like that...MT could press charges for defamation (or libel--sorry my knowledge of law sucks). But he wouldn't because 1) they caught him on tape 2) they have record of what he wrote on Aikiweb and Aikijournal. What would these guys have to gain from defaming a train-wreck like MT? These are all guys with different back grounds in martial arts and associations--was MT some kind of powerhouse heretic that these guys had to put him down in a cruel and Machiavellian way?

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

I think he suggests a larger principal may be implicated by the discussion.

And anyway, I always liked that story.

Regards,

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Demetrio:

The simple fact is that I never raised the issue of MT in this thread but simply added commentary after it was already raised, so I do not know why you used the monk analogy. I would certainly agree that he does serve as a stark reminder to the Aikido world about being able to walk the talk, honesty, integrity..... I think that the person who first brought MT up was making a cautionary comparison to the original poster in the thread in which this originated from. I do not view that event as being even remotely similar to a mythology. Anti-mythology at best, since there has been a remarkable degree of under-reporting of the event, as opposed to larger-than-life distortions.

I do not consider the MT incident to be part of the positives. NOBODY I know who was there even remotely views that series of events in a positive manner. Greek comedy at best.... My positive memories are with the remarkable instructors, teachers, friends,... whom I was lucky enough to spend that time with.

Marc Abrams

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

I'm not defending him, read my previous posts.

Its not about learning from him, its about learning about how things happen in the modern budo subculture.

I'm not suggesting some kind of aiki conspiracy against MT. I'm suggesting the complete history, all the relevant data, oppinions (what David Orange was asking for) is not available. For good causes possibly, but available is not.

[quote]Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue./QUOTE]
Deliberately or unconsciously or as a justified and deserved reaction to MT behaviour. Aikido people can be assholes too. They are no emotionless enlightened ascetic monks nor skirt wearing vulcanians. MT could have ended in a hospital if this happened in a different environment. Probably. Your point?

Saying a guy sucks at aikido can be seen as defamation or libel? Really? Are the USA so different?

Nothing, but where is the defamation? In saying MT can't pull a decent Ikkyo? Seriously?

Or they simply overreacted. With the available data any conclusion is possible depending on individual agendas.

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

I wrote "you guys"... It wasn't adressed at you particularly.

Sure. So MT affaire aquired a meaning trascending its own circunstances. Maybe some day, when one makes up some martial BS, we will say: "he pulled a Tennenhouse".

Well, MT is still in the memories of the aikido community and the story is still used as a dire warning.

Or an exemplum.

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Very good point! The lesson observed by me was a re-affirmation as to how kind Aikidoka are in comparison to a lot of other martial artists. In a karate, judo, boxing, mma,.... environment, MT would have most likely received a fierce beating. In this instance, MT hurt himself by virtue of his own tipless judgment (trying to do a double leg takedown on a person twice your weight with better balance and body structure).

What is available on the public domain and spoken about on this forum should simply speak for itself. People can draw what ever conclusions that would like and write whatever history they feel is necessary. " All" and "complete" are two words that do not work well in regards to history. We do the best we can with what we have at the time.

[quote=Demetrio Cereijo;277315] Aikidoka tend to act in a passive-aggressive manner more than an aggressive manner (in my own opinion). The events surrounding MT, to me, indicated that he was treated with a degree of kindness and respect that most people would never have extended to him in many other circumstances. We did have legitimate emotional responses to what turned out to be little more than a fraud, and despite that, he suffered no injuries as a result of how people treated him.

Despite a skeptical audience (based upon what he said and refused to say before the expo), he was given a venue to back up what he said. Nobody there over-reacted to what he did and did not do (my opinion). People can draw whatever conclusions they see fit. I really did not and do not see any personal agendas in what I have read from other people on this forum about MT. Their accounting was tempered, modest and did a good job at respectfully describing an unfortunate event.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Maybe the larger principal has dropped the lady years ago. He did what had to be done at that moment and that's all.

MT story or the river crossing monks story? :)

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Demetrio:

On that note, let us allow this side note to fade off into the sunset....

I look forward to meeting you one day in person. I respect your intellectual honesty and integrity that is reflected in your posts. I will be in Jura, France next month for the Ushiro Sensei seminar. If you are nearby, please drop in.

Regards,

marc abrams

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

No problem.

A thousand miles away from here. I'd like to meet you and, of course Ushiro Sensei, but I have very limited resources and time for travelling. Maybe in the future. Thanks anyway.

Take care

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Suggestion: a Soap Opera forum for aikiweb. For those so inclined.

Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff
 

I not sure of the meaning of the last part of your sentence. Do you mean that;

wisdom is not so "Noisily and stubbornly defiant." (http://www.answers.com/topic/obstreperous)

or

wisdom is not so "Aggressively boisterous." (http://www.answers.com/topic/obstreperous)

dps

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

How did George become his uke?

Were there other people that were his uke?

dps

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Hi,

I actually have an copy of the entire event, not just snippets. Stan wanted me to have it as a back up in case any legal issue presented itself and his copy was damaged or lost. It was understood that this tape would not be made public and I will continue to respect his wishes.

I viewed the tape again last night and must agree with Marc Abrams, viewing the tape only confirms that my memory of the event is completely accurate. Tennenhouse behaved in a way that was bizarre and hard to justify. Additionally, the "good guys" critically called into question here on this forum were exactly as I remember and very restrained given the disconnect between what Tennenhouse claimed and what he presented. I think the aikidoka present demonstrated nothing beyond justified agitation. There certainly were jeers and such but given that the event was promoted as a Q&A, when questions were ignored it's reasonable to expect that some vociferious frustration would become evident.

Demetrio,

I'm sorry but to imply that it is impossible to evaluate this incident because all the facts are not available is nonsense. There are a lot of people here who were directly involved in this incident as it happened. Plus at least one I know of has the entire event on tape. That's pretty solid stuff. Your apparent qualifications for obtaining a complete picture of the event is fantastic and impossible to meet. Remember, I am not an aikidoka and had no dog in this fight. I was pretty much an independent observer until I saw with my own eyes what Tennenhouse really represented. At that point yes, I formed an opinion based on the facts as they unfolded right in front of me. Compared to other events like Ueshiba's dodging bullets or being showered with golden light, this one is pretty well supported and documented. At some point you have to accept that everyone's observation of an event will be colored ala Rashomon, but I believe David Orange's requirement's of "A full account" can be met realistically, while yours cannot.

@DPS

Simple...People demonstrating delusions of grandeur are frequently associated with stubborn and loud cries of defiance. People exhibiting wisdom, not so much.

As for George, Tennenhouse attended a few seminars the first day of the Expo. He participated in a seminar taught by Todd Jones sensei, the topic of which was performing aikido waza against a lead hand jab. The first technique was a version of sayonage. His partner was a thin aikido black belt I don't know but Tennenhouse never executed the technique successfully on this gentleman who didn't appear to know who Tennenhouse was. The next technique was Ikkyo and his partner was nice guy, Lynn Seiser. Same result with Lynn excuting at a speed you'd have to call moderate to slow. Frankly, during the session with Lynn Tennenhouse looked like he'd never attempted ikkyo on anyone. Tennenhouse next partnered with George Ledyard. On the tape you can clearly observe George slowly throwing jabs at Tennenhouse and tapping him lightly on the head. George was not jerking Tennenhouses chain in any way but finally shook his head and flashed a frustrated look at me because Tennenhouse clearly had no clue how to perform ikkyo and would not take any of George's advice. Finally Tennenhouse visibly frustrated attempted to tackle George, so George simply moves slightly back and corrected his posture. Tennenhouse flopped over on his back and that was it. Rather anticlimactic actually.

Toby

Re: On M. Tennenhouse
 

Toby,

Thank you

dps