5th kyu shihans
 

Hey guys,

I need some advice. I am a woman training and i constantly come across these lower kyu men (usually just joined) who have absolutely NO idea as to what is going on. Of course they think they do AND not only do they complain about how I do the technique (i'm a second kyu), but they don't see what the instructor demonstrates AND they constantly try to tell me how to do the technique.

Today, we were SUPPOSED to do iriminage. These really large man, who is much stronger than I, did not follow properly (naturally didn't know how, because he just joined and is still learning) and complained about getting "clothes lined" and warned me not to do it again. I told him that he needed to learn how to follow. I'm not trying to hurt him, but he had to go with the movement. I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...at that point, I was just about to walk away from him, when the sensei changed the technique and we had to change partners. I really wanted to drop him, but naturally that is not the proper thing to do.

It's really working my nerves. Do you guys have any advice on how to deal with these people?

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Hi,
One of the points our Sensei repeats every time is: there is no bad uke, you must take a look at yourself beeing tori, you must improve yourself.. And I think there is too much complaining, speaking about levels :( just keep training and one day you will become a good tori and that large man will become a good uke

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Hi,

in our dojo or when I train abroad I don't have often something to do with 5th kyu shihans (being a 3rd kyu shihan myself...:p ). But it happens that there are some newbies giving me advice about what I'm doing wrong...we had it just yesterday that a technique (kokyu) did't work with a 5th kyu and myself, and she tried to explain me what she thought I was doing wrong. So what? If it didn't work then obviously I must have done something wrong - because if the teacher repeats the same thing with her, it does work.

Sure there are issues like "uke doesn't attack frankly enough" or "uke tries to walk out the technique when he should continue to attack" etc. etc. But then tori should be able to react to that, shouldn't he?

And then there is another issue - all these strong men can maybe make use of their weight and momentum on techniques like yokomen uchhi irimi nage...but whenever it comes to wrist twisting exercises I find them much more vulnerable than women or frailer men. So no need to get angry at them for being uncooperative at irimi nage, just wait when they have to pair up for sankyo.

Best regards,

Eva

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.

Hopefully they will learn - if not they will generally leave

In this situation just drop him - generally that's a REALLY good lesson.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

You are very sensitive about women, that is a great advice:)

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Ha ha...you haven't met my missus Phil...

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Maybe you were being too careful? Do you think an effective iriminage would have broken him? And on the other hand, being clotheslined isn't pleasant. So it would have been reasonable for him to be a bit upset.

At nikyu I'd really expect that one can handle a beginner even if they are taking awkward ukemi. And if things go wrong have the sense to use it as an opportunity to improve ones technique.

So look back at what happened. Maybe you didn't have his balance from the start. Then that is a thing to work on. Or he tried to recover his balance in an unexpected direction. In that case you might have to do another technique.

A good way to handle this might have been to say: "I'm sorry, lets look at what happens there" or something along those lines. Then it becomes a cooperation of you two trying to figure out what is going on in the technique, instead of an argument about who is right and who's rank is higher.

Pauliina

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

You could look at why it was working on your nerves. Is it an opportunity to work on patience or tolerance?
Mary

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

You are within your bounds to refuse to train with anyone who physically hurts you, or disrespects you.
However, I've dealt with the good old 5th kyu shihan syndrome. I know men who have the same complaint, so it breaches gender. But I understand how it is hard for a woman, being a woman. You have to pop your hips a little more and take ukemi faster. There are always be low ranked males waltzing in who will make you prove your rank to them. :/
I dealt with one male week 1 student(who no longer trains). I bowed to work with him, he refused me and said "I don't want to hit or throw a woman!" For a split second I was gonna accept his refusal, but then I got mad and told him "What makes you think you could pull off either in your first week?" I made him train.

In my region woman can wear hakama at an earlier stage than men. Men have to wait until black belt. I always feel bad for 1st kyu men at seminars, being told how to do something by 5th kyu shihan.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

It seems like the simplest and most effective thing to do, if a beginner is telling you to do something that doesn't meet with your understanding of how it is to be done, is to just say, "That's not how I understood it. Let's ask sensei to clarify," and then do just that.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

That's sound advice Mary.

I remember many times that I got frustrated with particular uke's, who either don't do what they are instructed to do, or make the exercise difficult to perform. It slowly dawned on me that I had more to learn from them, than with those who it was easy to practice with.

All practice is practice to work on ourselves, for our own benefit.

regards,

Mark

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

First of all... DID you clothesline him? No matter how good or bad a newbie is at "following" (which to me smells of teaching collusion, much rather have them learn continuing attacking) one shouldn't be clotheslining folks. If so rather than argue who needs to learn or change, a simple "sorry, didn't mean to, let's keep training."
Or of course "onegaishimase!" to the instructor with appeal for help because WE are having problems on this technique.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

It helps to have female yudansha in the dojo. Having someone 4'11" and 100 lbs put them *through* the mat has a way of teaching even the big guys a little respect....

On the other hand, being attacked by someone much bigger makes a lot of people tense up. Which will of course cause your technique to not work. Which leads to clotheslining and all sorts of other unpleasant behavior on the part of nage.

Remember, it's not uke's fault that he's big and tense. Being big is just genetics, and being tense is just because he's new. Think of it as an opportunity to learn to deal with that kind of energy.

Katherine

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

That's a really good point.
Some of the bigger, stiffer guys have taught me the most about going around force, leading, and extension. The heavy weights also made me learn to appreciate the art of the facial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0byR147UUjA )in randori.


For the OP's pleasure: http://www.aiki.rs/shihan_5kyu_e.htm

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Wow!

What a bunch of replys....cool!.

well, to answer a couple of good questions...To Janet, I did not clothesline him. But sometimes, iriminage is a clothesline if you don't follow. It could also be a smack in the nose/face by accident..And there are sensei's in the dojo who demonstrate the iriminage as a clothesline. you can clearly see the difference, though. My arm was arched and i hit him with the bend in my arm, not a forearm (which would be closer to a clothesline). I also move pretty slowly with while i first do a technique to get my movement together, and minimize the chance that i might injure someone with my awkwardness..

I am always careful to be respectful of those i try with, because i want them to keep training with me and give me respect. so i think to get respect, it's good to begin with giving it.

Another question and suggestion was to get the instructor involved. i did that with another technique, because he was going to "show" me what sensei did. So we called him over and he showed him the same thing i did....we continued to train.

I agree with one of the responses that there is too much talking during training. I came up with hardcore, old school instructors. we didn't do a lot of talking. AND if one of the larger (more muscular, not fat) men started intimidating the women, the other guys would step in. They also showed us women how to protect ourselves against these kind of people. But I don't want to go that route.

I don't teach people. I let the sensei do that, I like to train and figure it out as we go along. The movement can reveal itself through repetition and good instruction from a good sensei, of which i am not. BUT on the other hand, sometimes, your training partner has experience in other things and can make good suggestions that help.

AND yes, there is too much complaining during training too..I was quite surprised that this "tough" guy complained. But on the other hand, I thought that maybe in his mind, he was restraining himself from "retaliating"..

I'll see him again next week, when i'm on the mat and i'm not going to train with him. my training time is precious to me and it's generally a peaceful time for me. I want it to stay that way. There are people in the dojo who will retaliate if he hurts me, I don't want that, so I'm walking away for a while.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Also remember, it's his attitude that was the issue, not his physique..

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

You are his senior. Therefore it is up to you to adjust down to his level and prevent him from hurting himself while he learns how to take proper ukemi. If this keeps happening ask your sensei to show you what you can do in order to improve matters. In the process sensei will most likely use him to demonstrate to you. If this guys ukemi needs adjusting your sensei will be the one best suited to tell him so.

If I have a guy like this below my rank I adjust down and do the above. Usually I find out it is indeed myself that requires an adjustment. Not my junior. If the guy is my rank or above I might cut him some slack at first but once we have worked together a while if the attitude continues I just throw him hard a few times. (or in the case of one fellow, just scare the (*&^@ out of him with a bokken) Or I get my sensei to work with them, again by asking for help with MY problem. They usually get the point.

Sometimes the best thing to do is just nod and smile and say thank you and just keep training.

There have been a few guys in my dojo that I at first wanted to avoid training with over such issues. Now those same ones are the ones I grab first because they challenge me and I learn more from them. Avoiding training with someone who is difficult is not a solution unless he poses a real threat to your safety.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

In my experience, the biggest thing hurt in this guys type is his ego.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

The two go together. If you could throw him without difficulty, he wouldn't be inspired to tell you what you're doing "wrong:" he'd be too busy trying to avoid getting killed. If you could throw him without difficulty, you would probably also be less bothered by his remarks and could simply ignore him instead of posting here. (This is why you don't hear many complaints about small female 5th kyu shihans, even though they also exist.)

Katherine

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

I did throw him, hence his complaint....lol. The first few times, he resisted and I let him go, and gave him some insight..his response: "I know, I know...". I said, Oh, okay..wonderful. Then he got thrown. Then when he tried to throw me, he couldn't do it the way he wanted to. The second time he tried to throw me, I let go to protect myself (katatetori). Then I Threw him.....

lol...

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Hi Maggie - it's frustrating because the time this man takes to talk nonsense, is less time we have to train. You are absolutely right about Ukemi. When I train with sempai, I never complain...They generally know what kind of falls I'm better at, or worse at. They don't try to hurt me and I respect their bodies as well. It's always the new students who come in rough and rugged and full of bravado...I did too, when I first started. I didn't know any better and I got offended if someone tried to tell me. It wasn't until I trained regularly and seriously that I began to understand what people tried to tell me. Thankfully, they were gracious to me and accepted my apologies when I presented them.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

If he complains about being clothes lined again, just tell him that his ukemi is still too slow for your are already moving at a snails pace. One of my previous instructors loved to use me for demonstrating the technique and I learned really quick to go down fast for his iriminage was a clothes line.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

One way beginners solicit feedback is to describe what they see going on. Sometimes that is frequently interpreted as telling their partner how wrong the partner is.

I've always disliked techniques that hit uke in the throat. They usually just piss off the uke. If you want them to continue training with you hitting them in the throat should be reserved for much more senior people. If you really have someone's balance you don't need the clothesline so why do it. It's not the beginner's problem for not following. Just my opinion.

Mark

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Having the ability to work with others is a great skill to have at any dojo. Regardless, of race, creed, color, or sex.

We need people to train with, learn from, and teach us. We can't do Aikido alone, we need a training partner. So when we enter the dojo, we must come in with the right attitude that we will be harmonious, we will demonstrate love in order to help us grow both in our personal lives and in the dojo. Love, an important precept hailed by O'Sensei, who imparted it to us had his conflicts and over came them with love and not violence (later in his life). If we are true to ourselves, and seriously sincere about Aikido and the Founder, we will overcome any personality and or petty differences within ourselves and between our fellow deshi.

Love is what makes Aikido very special and appealing. We all must exercise that love as being the greatest Aikido waza of all. If O'Sensei's dream is to material it should start in the dojo overcoming personal conflicts like prejudices, sexism (male and female), and hate. If we don't carry-on in a loving harmonious manner , and instead insist on maintain conflict and personal competition then we are not doing Aikido. We have failed. We are truly 1st kyus no matter what color cloth is tied our waist.

What goes around here with all the conflict and strife who have O'Sensei turn in his grave. We practice Aikido, and it should show.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Personally I think saying this was a mistake. You're pretty much never going to gain another person's respect by telling them they should respect you...at best it makes no difference, but more often it lowers their respect for you.

IMO, use the opportunity to figure out how to deal with a large unwieldy opponent, don't worry so much about 'teaching' him how to do his part if he's not receptive or not appearing to find your advice helpful, when you get into that situation ask Sensei for help dealing with a large opponent who moves this way (if Sensei feels the need he'll show the uke something too), and otherwise just train with him, unless you feel unsafe or feel that he is going to get hurt. And especially, don't waste your time worrying whether your partner respects you or not.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

At this point I've moved forward. What is interesting here is that many did not notice a thinly vailed threat spoken. I've decided not to train with him, until his attitude changes. I've discussed it with two sensei's in the dojo. Both believe that I handled it well and they will keep an eye on him for the next few weeks. Threats don't go well in our world. Threats are not appropriate.

Thank you to everyone who offered insight.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Honestly, all the injuries I've withstood in Aikido was from low kyu ranks.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Perhaps it is because my aikido sucks, but if even a newbie can point out something I am doing wrong, I figure it must be a pretty obvious mistake on my part. I have gotten some really good advice from people who are lower ranked than I but are much stronger regarding how to get a technique to work on them. I sometimes even work with them on the break between classes to see if I can figure out what I need to improve on. Sometimes they are wrong, but a lot of times they know why they didn't fall and are more than happy to share their "expertise."

YMMV

Eric

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Sometimes it's hard to tell just from a description of the words if there's a threat implied, as it's often something about how it's said as much as what is said... You're the one there, and if you get a sense that someone's threatening you or trying to intimidate you, in that case certainly I agree that talking to your sensei and avoiding the person for now sounds like a sensible thing to do...

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Sometimes just taking ukemi for the duratiion s a good solution. You get some dedicated time to work on this aspect, and time lost to argy bargy is minimized. And maybe they pickup what ukemi and being uke is all about , or not. In any case u move on to next partner.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

I think it is down to the instructor to make sure that everybody in the class understands the purpose of the grading system and maintains proper etiquette.

We have been told on occasions:

"Do it as your sempai shows you, even if you know it is wrong"
"Do not talk back to, or question your sempai"

I maintain this philosophy no matter which dojo I am in. I will always do the technique as the instructor showed first. If the sempai corrects me, even if it is clearly different than Sensei demonstrated then I follow their instruction. Sometimes Sensei will then come over and correct you, at which point you do not say "I knew that.." or some other smart arse comment", you just bow and say "Hai Sensei, Domo Arigato", these are lessons in patience, humility, and manors. Something that this 5th kyu sounds like he needs more than a good Iriminage.

The instructor needs to set/maintain the standard for the reigi (etiquette) in the Dojo.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

I can't stress enough the importance of conflict resolution in predispositional relationships in domestic environments. It happens every day we must co-exit with others, strangers different from us. At work, the dojo, or school. Being brought together under volunteer circumstances we are required to function and interact together if we are to maintant any type of status or recognition . Because of our backgrounds and personal experiences, we set visable and invisible bountries with individuals we barely know or want to know, or understand. We don't lend to communicating effectively as it poses personal risk and volunerablity. Our personal backgrounds and experiences not disclosed in these enviroments (where we don't feel personally safe, where we don't feel secure) become powerful hanicaps to interpersonal skills and relationships. We don't move forward to resovle personal conflict, over-coming the interference of predispositional elements we harbor in dealing with people.

Both individuals have failed to communicate effectively to reduce conflict instead of inciting more intense conflict in a domestic environment. Changing the predispositional view of these two individuals, taking another angle on the current relationship and how to move it productively forward for the purpose of a positive and porductive training relationship, is vital to each individual. It is also vital to the other particiapants in the dojo and their dojo experience. The benefits of changing our predisposition are psychol in relation to the purpose of being a part of the environment, and the goal of being an erudite practitioner in the art of Aikido. No other goal or purpose should exist.

Not only do you live your ego at the door, but everything else.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Again, I am very appreciative to read the thoughts of everyone.

When we are training, remember, come into the dojo a "whole human being", with whatever that means to a person. Just because we practice aikido doesn't mean that we stop being human. We bring our strengths and weakness with us and we train with that. Our mindset, or perspective dictate where we go with our training. Free will...It's easy to get "super spiritual" and esoteric about how we need to "seize" this or that opportunity. The simple fact is that we are humans and we do the things that humans do. Until the spirit and the mind is open to a new way of being, we remain in a constant struggle against our weakness and the weakness of others as it impedes on our respective environment.

It is easy to say "both" failed, etc. etc....The simple fact of the matter is that there is an order to the dojo that is there that can protect us and provide structure for learning. I went through my paces until I EARNED my rank.

I would say to all who look to go to another level, you don't lower yourself to someone else's nonsense. You maintain the standard and move forward. It's up to the student to do the necessary. Period. O'Sensei would not stop "communicate". He did the technique and that was that. The students either applied themselves, their attitudes and their spirits or they didn't.

I trained today, had great training. Just as I suspected 5th kyu instructor said some things, didn't do some things and go harshly corrected by the Aikido teacher. This is only the beginning. Because even then, he "knew" what he was doing and was not open to what was taught to him....

He is on one path and I am on another.

Again, I appreciate what others have to say. But, at the end of the day, this is a Martial Art...Due care should be taken and training should be serious and enlightening....And when someone steps out of line, there needs to be an immediate correction. Hopefully by the sensei, as some have stated here.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

I would really hate to train in a dojo that made that an actual rule and where sempais felt they were justified in 'correcting' me for not giving them enough 'respect'.

Real respect is _earned_. If someone keeps giving good helpful advice, if I can see by their example that I want to be able to do what they can do, I will quickly learn to listen to their advice - and it won't be because I was told they're my senior so I have to.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Not sure but think you may have misunderstood the point. The respect should be there for your sempai from the get go. That way you don't get into a pickle, like 5th kyu's handing out advice to 2nd kyu's. This etiquette is inherent in the Japanese social hierarchical system. And although we are not Japanese nor are we attempting to become, it does lend itself to creating a well ordered and structured learning environment. Which is for the betterment of all deshi.

A sempai will not correct a student for not showing them respect, they don't have to, the instructor has taken care to ensure that everybody understands the correct etiquette from the get go.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

IMO, that's not respect you're talking about anymore, it's etiquette. Which is fine, I suppose, to say that this is just the way we do things, like bowing or something...

But you can't respect someone 'from the get-go'. You just don't know them well enough to respect or disrespect them... I suppose you can say you'll just follow the rules of precedence regardless.

But IMO, if the seniors are good technically and good teachers there isn't really any need.... It doesn't really take that long before new people start to respect them anyway.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Once again, I see nothing wrong with a 5th kyu giving advice to a "sempai"? If you have this person pinned for ikkyo, and it is loose enough for their shoulder to turn out of it, wouldn't you like them to let you know you need to move their arm that extra half inch?

In my mind, that slows down progress for both the sempai and the kohai. It would be great if one could wait for the instructor to come over and offer pointers, but honestly, if you have 6 pairs practicing on the matt, that isn't going to happen very often.

I would also argue that by encouraging our kohai to critique us, it encourages them to think critically about the techniques and not drift into that "if I just do it 50,000 times, it will somehow become good."

That being said, if one feels there is abuse on the matt, then it is important to talk to that person about it off the matt, and if that isn't effective, have a conversation with the dojo-cho about it.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

Ha ha..... ditto:D

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

I understand you feel your perspective is above reproach, and the onus falls on the other individual. Thus, you views and behavior is without fault; void of admonishment, or critique. It is the individual and their personal predisposition, and background creating experiences that formula individual expectations of behavior for the relationship and resulting individual behavior of both parties. Thereby dominating our perceptions of who is and isn't at fault. Resulting in the impedance to productive conflict resolution; applying to both parties involved.

Without objective circumspect of our own behavior and how it effects others and our environment, we can't objectively evaluate our own and that of others. Training can't be done alone to truly be benefitical. We must have mutual respect and tolerance of others, placing aside our judgements and expectations of others' and their behavior during training in the dojo.

We also must understand it is a Martial Art that lends itself to male stereotypes. As well as, both male and female low level controlled aggressive behavior. The cynosure of personal conflict comes from the same precipice found in most domestic relationships, the common power struggle. Amplified, not mentioned, gender expectations and prejudices.

When we understand that we are a whole human "beings" and how we effect other's and the environment we exist in, we can better navigate personal relationships towards a platform of an harmonious mutual training and understanding of ourselves and others.

Yes, both are at fault. I would like to point as well to the reponses given in the thread in the Anonymous forum titled, "is there another solution" where posters direct thoughtfully why both individuals are equally at fault and why. Very enlightening indeed.

Re: 5th kyu shihans
 

I don't think the anonymous forum was created so you could rebut anonymous posters from hiding.