What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

do you imagine yourself being attacked by a BJJer in the near future? If not, what does it matter?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Do I imagine myself being attacked by a BJJer?

Given the rate BJJ is growing at makes the possibility very high in case of any attack.

Learning/exploring and knowing how to deal with different situations dose matter to me and should do to any martial artrist.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Strike to the throat or other vital point. Break a finger or wrist. EDIT: Or elbow or shoulder...

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I appriciate your advice Michael however my intention is to hear opinions on how to deal with it from an Aikido perspective I believe Aikido has the tools/techniques to neutralize the whole attack at its begining if applied in good time.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

this is a bit like a "punchers chance" In other words you have some possibility of success if you get everything just right at just the right time. The chances of that happening in the chaos of a fight is pretty slim.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Not for me...but of course, that all depends on how you train and how you catch on.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I agree, Jean.
If you are relaxed and aware of openings, you can work wrist techniques on an ankle, execute sokomen while lying under an attacker (for example), you can flow and be flexible if you train hard and often.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Sprawl and more sprawl, after that, try to break some finger I think (remember that, we do not have rules or judges). They have the same skill that we to protect to complex parts like arms and legs.. Respect to the blows, i believe that the UFC already demonstrated that they are not so efficient with them.
I think that our greater weapon is to always attack his attack (irimi) leaving its trajectory of entrance, always.

PD: And now, to sweeten the situation, How to neutralize to a Aikidoka? :rolleyes:

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Try a technique with your knife or sword, any weapon really. The BJJer will be scared and confused, and if he grabs your arm(s) use aikido techniques. . . that's what they are for, if he never attempts to control your arms stab, or cut him repeatedly. (Disclaimer: I do not advocate the use of violence unless it is for self-defense. The above example is for illustrative purposes only.)

Or you can use your weapon against him. Jujutsu wasn't that important to the samurai. I wonder why?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

First off. Honestly, I doubt any high ranking BJJ is going around looking to submit Aikidoka or picking fights to show off to their friends.. Although I do notice more thug like mentality in some lower rank BJJ practioners.

If your gonna be fighting a BJJ in his game......better learn some BJJ!! I think that is the only way to learn defense and what NOT to do in that situation. If they grab you and take you down your in big trouble. BJJ people have great endurance so don't expect them to tire before you. I think Aikidoka would tire first generally.

Learn to sprawl. Atemi with Knees to the face, elbows etc.. Learn to move (which as an Aikidoka you should be comfortable with). Keep moving is your best defense probably. A good rocking knee to the face as they come in...would probably end it right there. If you miss, your screwed. Eye gouges...ear grabs. Eyes are eyes and soft tissue is soft tissue. Doesn't matter what art you do. If your being attacked and your life is in danger..no holds barred until you feel you can safely deal with the attacker. At that point, no need to be brutal.

Lastly, and this is somewhat tongue in cheek but a criticism I've seen of BJJ. BJJ isn't very effective against more than 1 person! Kind of hard for them to submit you if your buddy is tap dancing on their head with a steel toe boot. BJJ really falls short on the multiple attacker scenario side. At least Aikidoka train for it. Whether you can actually pull it off is another story, but at least Aikido aknowledges that if your attacked it usually is by more than one person in a street situation.

I think overall Aikido is a better package than BJJ in the sense of atemi-waza, flowing movement, multiple attacker scenarios, weapons, and spiritual awareness. After 35....who needs the injuries!! I would be bored and a little uncomfortable rolling around on a mat with a sweaty neanderthal for 2 hours.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

*sigh* we've been round this block before neh.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Mary, can I ask how many BJJers you've worked out with and what level they were?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

easy - don't attack :D

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

If only that were true! It is worth pointing out that the so called "dirty" techniques are going to be much more likely to be delivered by the person dominating position. If you're on the ground that is likely to be the BJJer
hmm.....
I would say
Aikido is a better package than BJJ.
I would also say
BJJ is a better package than Aikido.

Which one I would say at any given moment depends on what comes after "and by better, I mean better for......"

Beleive it or not I and many of my guys have found BJJ to be less injury prone than Aikido I'm sure you didn't mean this to be as offensive as it came across?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Sorry, but the question is stupid:
How would he attack you?

There is more then one option for BJJ people to attack, and your response should vary based on the situation. Obviously, you would not like to get to the ground, and keep the fight in the circumstances you are comfortable with.

Note, that standup BJJ is ery similiar to Aikido at least from the technical point, so you could probabl ask the same question of an Aikidoka.

Amir

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Well, sort of, not exactly. Jujutsu as practiced in most ryuha was integral to the core art and was usually a subset of techniques within a sword, spear or other armed art. And it was usually practiced ith a weapon in the obi or in the hand as well.

BJJ'ers: BJJ is judo groundwork, refined and simplified. All body arts share a certain set of principles. The techniques may differ, but the principles remain in effect. Remember, gravity is your friend, and if you can, hit 'em with the biggest thing you can -- the earth.

It also helps to learn a little grappling, so that the mat, as well as gravity, becomes your friend ... or at least friendly territory.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Okay, what would you do?

David

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

yea.., make to he attack first ? :p

if it is by strategy, aikidoka would have to attack first.

Yes, that is very certain, we are very near relatives, start from a a same technical base, only we have moved away in the form, but the bottom is the same one.

certain, and already I did it :cool:

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I think what we really need is some sort of automated bot for the message board. As soon as it detects any sort of "Aikido vs BJJ" post it deletes it then forwards the poster the dozens of threads that already exist on the topic.

--

Anthony:

One, as Michael said, that's rather insulting. Two, your attitude and comments come across as completely ignorant of what BJJ is all about. I'd also agree with Michael in that I have found there to be far fewer injuries in BJJ than Aikido.

In regards to the question at hand, who cares? Why is someone trained in BJJ going to "attack" you? How are the going to attack you? It's not like there is one singular attack that BJJers perform. I'm assuming your actually asking: "what should I do when a guy shoots in for my legs?" The answer is: go to a BJJ/MMA/Sambo/Wrestling gym and they'll show you what to do (short answer: sprawl, whizzer, knees to the face). You'll get a basic understanding of what to do, be satisfied with that. However be aware that, more than likely, if someone wants to take you down, they will. If the the person going for the shoot grew up wrestling here in the States, forget it, game over, they are taking you down.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

In the early part of the latter century there was an intense and rivalrous competition between Brazilian Jujitsu and Japanese Jujitsu. The Brazilians had been practicing in realtive isolation, developing jujitsu to meet their own culture and standards, boasting all the while that they were undefeatable. A match was finally called between the Brailiain team and the Japanese team headed by a sensei named Kimura. After rounds and rounds among the sempai, some leading to near death and broken bones, all appeared to be realtively equal. The event culminated in a fight between Kimura and the Brazilian Teacher that almost lead to death in the first match. The match was stopped. It was restarted just a short while later. In the middle of the heated match, after everything else was exausted The Japanese Sensei then brought out his secret signature move and pinned the Brazilian on his back to the floor and the won the match with that one move. The move is now referrred to as the 'Kimura' and is the backbone of many practicioners repetoir.Essentially it is still a 'signature' winning move in BJ or JJ. The Brazilians adapted it to their form and others to theirs; if they know to look for the move. It is in the essence of the Japanese Arts that this move emerged.

So, I have two thoughts:
Thought one: The answer to the original thread question woud be,in essence, The Kimura and the functioning properties of Japanese Arts as emerged from the land.

Thought Two:
Our reasoning and method for training, as it is generationally passed down from the founder and his diciples, is to learn to Co-Exist not to Compete. They have very different end purposes and the way we practice the same moves as say, The Kimura, lead to a larger effect than winning a Brazilian. It leads to the possibility that we can, of whatever origin, Co-Exist with the Brazilians ( or name your favorite country ........here) based on unversal principles of nature that bind us all on this earth. If you ( One) end your mind at the thought of fighting and winning then you (one) also end your mind at the thought of death. Very un-samurai and very un-alive way to 'progress' in this mortal plane.

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita,

jen

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I believe the best way to deal with them is on the ground. So I would use any technique from suri-waza.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I got kicked off by the administrator for taking too long with my thoughts ( oh well:rolleyes: ).
I wanted to add that the 'Brazilian' is Heloi Gracie.

and here is a link of the final match

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1eN...elated&search=

and here is a link of a Kimura Documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw

Domo!

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

"near death" is a exaggeration imo.

I don't believe that's accurate. Helio Gracie had a match with Masahiko Kimura, and I believe this is what you are referring to. The match ended after Gracie's side threw in the towel during the second round (The total match time was over 13 minutes). It should be noted that Kimura was significantly younger and larger than Gracie at the time of the match. Also Helio himself did not submit, despite having his arm broken during the match.

There were rounds, although I do not know the length of the round (I would presume 10 minutes). I don't believe the match was stopped for any reason inbetween rounds. Also Kimura had publically stated that if Gracie lasted longer than 3 minutes Gracie should consider himself the winner.

Regards,

Paul

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Tactically, I would disagree. Groundwork is the strength of bjj, so choosing to engage on the ground with a bjj'er would be similar to wanting to box with a boxer. I wouldn't recommend that, myself.

In my own experience, swari-waza is not an effective way to counter bjj, nor would be attempting to apply submission holds from a inferior position which I think was suggested earlier. Of course, ymmv.

Regards,

Paul

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Very true. Except, that was the last time when I accepted your "challenge" to go check out dojo. Then I found that ground guys couldn't take me down until after I was totally winded and was indifferent to going down. I consistently got holds that were initial steps in Aikido techniques. And I chose not to apply techniques because I had several individuals in very delicate positions and I was afraid to hurt them (I had their fingers/hands/wrists under control).

I consistently controlled distance with Aikido. As a result, I controlled the situation.

Apparently the problem with you is that your Aikido is weak and you've failed with it. Because your technique is weak, you think that no one else's Aikido is effective?

It's good that you didn't continue on with that post. I put up, I figure it's time for you to shut up... my Aiki-failure friend.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I think the ultimate unstoppable technique that should have been used since the beginning of this thread is the Aikiweb Search Engine. Use words such as BJJ, shoot defense or any other BJJ specific terminology and you'lll find a host of very long threads dealing with almost everything to do with a BJJ/Aikido encounter.

For those of us here for some time, like Michael Fooks etc. this concept has been beaten to death, literally. Imho folks who compare style vs style instead of person vs person probably do not have very extensive experience/knowledge in fighting or sparring.

Gambatte.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Totally agree. Aikido can work quite well but one has to understand Aikido and be able to apply it very well. If you end up on the ground with no ground skills... good luck.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I call shennanigans on this. Please name the bjj school you went to and the level of the people you sparred with.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Indeed. And to be clear to all, ground skills involves actually training on the ground against resistance, not saying "I'll just do ikkyo from my back"

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Great idea! And lets add to the bots duties by having it also post youtube links to video's of those that have trained "hard enough and long enough" using Aikido to thwart the attack of BJJ blue belts or highter.

Oh wait.....

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Name the exact BJJ gym you went to, along with people who were blue belt and higher that were there. Almost any reputable BJJ will have a website as well so you should be able to link it for us. I call ultra-double-super-shennanigans if you were both wearing gi.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Yeah, yeah. How about you post the names of the people you've trained under in Aikido who's technique is too weak to deal with BJJers?

Since my visit to that initial dojo that ended my questions I had on whether it was me who imagined I saw too much in the techniques or your blindness that prevented you from seeing the depth of the art, I've messed around with a handful more.

I'm not going to appear to brag or insult people who don't take it personally that I get the better of them on most occassions.

In the end, the case is closed for me. Your technique is immature, that's why you couldn't find the answers in Aikido.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Sure. What sandan Aikidoka have you tangled with to support anything that contradicts what I'm saying.

BJJ, JJ who cares? It's all JJ just like Aikido is all Aikido.

You guys play this game. If I head to a dojo, it's not the right dojo. If I name a rank, it wasn't the right rank. If I name a name, it's not the right name. If an Aikidoka won the UFC, it was the wrong time to win the UFC.

You're blinded by denial because you can't grasp it.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Well, one of my best friends is a sandan (we met at our Aikido dojo) and we train in BJJ together on a regular basis. So...pretty often.

No, the game is, you come on here and make wild claims and we ask you to back them up, you resort to ad hominem retorts. Which, tends to make everyone not believe anything you say. At this point, I'm fairly resigned to just regarding you as a very clever troll.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.

And let's face it, one sandan doesn't really represent Aikido as a whole.

You're right. I'm very clever. But if I'm a troll, it seems interesting that I'm an Aikidoka on an Aikido website responding to posts made by non-committed or non-Aikidoka.

Makes me wonder, who are the trolls?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

What does any of that mean?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

The real problem is that you ask a question to which very few Aikidoka's can answer.
You will see the usual defensive answers like "why you wanna know? Aikido is..." or "when a BJJer will attack you?". But this is to hide the fact that someone who does only Aikido has not a clue on what to do on the ground. In dojo's it is never practiced and so no way to tell you.

One thing I agree with what I read, if a BBJer wants to take the fight to the ground in the long run it wil happen. So if you wanna know what to do the only thing is taking your Sensei and train in dojo with him on avoiding being taken down. But most likely go to a BJJ gym and learn some ground work which won't hurt you to know.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

who knows what I mean. I do remember that in the last discussion that Jean went on a bent about how rank doesn't matter. I predicted he'd change his tune on that and I see he has.

Sandans? Well I'm one, does that count? I was Nidan when I first walked into a BJJ club and got completely handled. My grades have all been confrerred by an Aikikai Shihan - so of course when you insult my level and ability you are also insulting that particular Shihan and indeed the Aikikai.

I noticed something odd in one of your responses. Can you confirm for us that the "dojo" you went to test yourself was *Brazillian* Jiu Jitsu and not japanese?