Re: What is the One Point?
 

Who was this teacher and where did this happen, Dan? And before I check into it, do you want to modify your comments any? When you say "his students", are you be any chance meaning the attendees at some workshop? I.e., by that logic you were a "student" of his.

Let me know. This one sounds so good that I may be able to find someone who was there that can give me the lowdown on what happened. I always like a good story. However, self-glorifying stories tend to be something I'd prefer not to see in the martial arts.


Mike Sigman

Re: What is the One Point?
 

Do I want to modify my comment any?
Self glorifying?
Before you "Check into" it?
My god Man. The things I have heard about *your* antics are deplorable.What a laugh
I have trained with folks who trained with you. You are the one -not me-who should be careful about what you say.

I asked Jun to edit an earlier post to be nice to you leaving out an unkind referrence about my experiences recently with folks who know you. And this is what I get for my trouble.

OK, I've had a enough. So here it is.
I have now trained with over a dozen people who have personally trained with you. Add to that several who attended your "workshops." And sat at tables with masters, teachers and students alike. Their thoughts on you were shared openly with folks chiming in at will. Pretty much I got;
1. That you are dispicable human being. My judgement of your personal character was spot on -I'm rarely wrong. And that got you banned from E-budo. They went on to tell me even more "Sigman stories" their phrase for the many unkind, and awfully rude things they know about you. Their words not mine.

2. That your skills do not qualify your superior attitude. Yes they said you had some stuff but ...engh! No big thing. And after getting a taste of me. After me going in a nobody and being humble and then them feeling what I could do to them... then getting hugged by me and me making them laugh- they were even more disgusted by *your* attitude. Why do you make enemies? I can't figure it out.

3. Five of them offered me money to teach them what I do-after spending many hours with me. In fact they wouldn't let me go till way after the thing ended. At the seminar folks were bouncing off me and when they did their leg things in push hands I didn't move at all. and I showed them some breath work to add strength to their legs.

4. Several have now come here along with a MMA guy they knew and have taken a private workshop on internal skills. Sitting in my living room I decided to share with them the many times you have told me I was full of crap and I don't get it. They died laughing, now having had a close up and personal taste of you and me.

Oh well.
I don't like you Mike. Not at all. You are, as I guessed, pretty much not liked..period. Where you go you leave a bad taste in peoples mouth.
You forgot in your internal training to work on ...your heart Mike.

Call me a lair, tell me I'm all external, and go rate more Chinese masters by warching videos.....Fine by me. As I discovered- your not worth my time

Bye bye now
Dan

Re: What is the One Point?
 

Dan,

I'm not here to defend Mike, I'm sure he can do that for himself, but your post is a supreme case of "The pot calling the kettle black". A shame, because you could have just answered the questions posed or ignored them, your choice. You have chosen to lambast a mans character, through hearsay, and then chided him for lack of heart. I'd say "pots and kettles"!

The question posed at the head of the thread was from a complete beginner to aikido, he will no doubt be more confused, not less, by the track of this thread to date.

I was enjoying your posts up till now :(

regards,

Mark

Re: What is the One Point?
 

Ladies and gents my apologies

Many of you know me personally, others by years on the net. While I am direct, I am usually never rude. For past year I was excited to see like minds in the CMA and have made freinds on that side of the fence. I can no longer explain Sigman, neither can the many I've now met who have trained with him and or conversed with him. I know from Private Emials your thougths on the way he has spoken to me on several boards.

I have allowed for different terminology and such and tried to be nice back but I gave up. I will not discuss the details of things I was told.I have now met too many for it to be the occasional dispute. I will simply no longer converse with the man.

Again, my apologies to the many who are reading.
Dan

Re: What is the One Point?
 

Mark
It was a public seminar. Mike will dig around.

It was not the questions. I never talk about who I train with anyway. It was the constant and continued tone from him.
Pot and kettle? I don't see it. I've told guys flat out there are better ways, and I have critisized and challenged arts methods all while finding ways to be decent while doing so. If you notice I never got mad at Jim. No big deal. I hope to meet the guy. The way Mike is on the web is the way he is in person. I lost track of the insults he has tossed my way. Most of us disagree at points sometimes strongly. He is in a class by himself for insults tossed my way.
I have left off damaging commentary and the many detailed stories I have been told. At one point severl months ago I told some guys "Enough. I don't want to hear anymore."

If you note anyone who has trained with me talks about what a gentleman I am.

Cheers
Dan

Re: What is the One Point?
 

Have to say, having met Mike at one of his workshops when he was in the UK recently, I didn't get this impression at all.
I certainly appreciate any instructor who gets the beers in off their own bat and found him nothing but pleasant and willing to discuss things.

Mark, I don't think the added twists of the thread have done anything but reveal the "One Points" true source - it's whatever I damn well say it is at this point in time. With that in mind, the answer boils down to the nice little homily of "ask your sensei what they think it is" and act accordingly.

Re: What is the One Point?
 

Greetings All,

For the record, my invitation to Dan to show what he is talking about still stands. Please see http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287.

Dan, I am sure that our meeting will be pleasant --- if you can do and teach what you say you can.

Jim

Re: What is the One Point?
 

i can't figure out why Dan would turn down an all expense paid trip to Virginia to demonstrate his skills.
if Jim offered me the same deal, i'd be there in heartbeat!
a former sempai of mine teaches Aikido in that area as well.
i'm afraid i would be there to learn rather than teach though.
sigh...i suppose i have little to offer...other than how to be a humble student of Aikido.

Re: What is the One Point?
 

I understand that, Dan. You also smeared some unnamed teacher and his "students" (are you referring to workshop attendees... they are not his "students"). I ask you to name the object of your back-handed disparagement and you start attacking me. Par for the course; you've done it before.

Now...back to the question which you didn't answer. Are you going to tell us the name of these people you belittled with your self-pumping story earlier or not?

Mike Sigman

Re: What is the One Point?
 

I didn't smear them. I like them. and from student to teacher we get along. And I don't need your help in differentiation.
But this is the third group...funny how the training speaks for itself and we can make friends. I now train with them- me learning two different CMA's forms and training them in internal skills. Funny how it works when you show up and don't insult them and just let them feel you. You make freinds They are as unconcerned with your methods -having trained with you- as I am.

When Ron and his friend come up I'll have them train and introduce them and they can go to dinner. They can tell Ron what they think.

As for smearing? Thats what you do.... I've heard plenty.
But I'll let that go
Keep training Mike. Its out there for ya......

Dan

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

All,

I know Mike. I have met and trained with him. I will not provide testimony either for Mike's technical ability, or for his character; and here is my reason (apart from my own dubious qualifications in either regard): I sincerely believe Mike would not want me to. I suppose that, paradoxically, I have lied by offering this information in such a way - but so be it. I would not speak up at all except that character attacks of the sort quoted above are so insidious. They imply everything while saying nothing, and they smear a man's name without even the chance of rebuttal. Sometimes it takes a third party to point this out, and that is really all I am doing. My only qualification in this regard is that I have in the past, defended Dan to another party - pointing out that based on a long history of reading his words, I thought his knowledge was deeper than might be suggested by his rash words at the time. I am not one to call for peace, but I think the information being discussed is important; and I for one would be happiest if it were possible for discussion to take place publicly without character assassination, attempted or otherwise.

Sincerely,
Chhi'mèd Künzang

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Although as usual, Dan's trying to make this a "bad Mike Sigman" diversion, as he's done in other threads and other forums, this is a serious charge that he's made about a purportedly well-known Chen-style teacher. All the attempts to change it to a Mike Sigman conversation are fatuous.... who was it, Dan? When you say about some well-known Chen teacher that "Their teacher could do nothing to me and bounced off me" you've opened a can of worms. If I wrote something that derogatory about a well-known Aikido teacher, D-R teacher, whatever, I wouldn't act surprised when someone wanted the name... it's an insult to the art.

And yes, according to an ongoing discussion on QiJing it's pretty obvious what seminar you're talking about and who, but you should be big enough to step up to your own words for once.

Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Look guys... this type of exchange serves no useful purpose. On an Aikido Forum, it's about the Aikido. Both of you believe that you have something to offer the Aikido mainstream which is missing. I don't have a problem with that, it's clear to anyone who looks that there are all sorts of issues in Aikido today. Anyway, character and personality issues don't count in this discussion. it's about the technique. Frankly, both of you come up short when it comes to exchange without pissing some else off...

I would like to see what both of you have got going on... I am motivated strictly by self interest in that I'll train with anyone I think has something to show me that will make my Aikido better. I am going to suggest that Stan Pranin invite you both to do classes at the next Aiki Expo. That will give you a venue in which you can both make a positive contribution. This is what you trying to do, right? Make a positive contribution? Otherwise, I can't figure out what either of you are doing here on Aik Web.

Both of you go on at length about what you know and how the rest of us don't "get it". Then you attack each other... Now I know I don't get it, so you don't get my hackles up much. But what is the purpose? In my opinion, the only legitimate reason for either of you guys to be on Aiki Web, since neither of you are Aikido practitioners, is that you feel you have something to offer which is positive. So I think the best way to go beyond these constant repetitions of "you guys don't get it" without any way to actually see and feel what you are talking about for ourselves would be for both of you to step up and show your stuff at the next Expo. That's what the event is for, after all. I am going to suggest it to Stan. Hopefully the outcome will be more interesting than with Tennenhouse, the last guy who was busy telling all of us that we didn't get it.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

ouch

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Isn't this the part where someone's mom jumps up and says, "I don't care who started it...behave?" :)

They're playing a game...it's called "Who Has the Biggest Tar-Brush?" :rolleyes:

I've yet to see anyone win at this game, no matter what the topic. The players only end up getting their dogi's sticky. :uch:

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I think it is hilarious that the two guys who claim to know so much about being centered have completly lost their own centers..
The cool part is that they can just relax, go back to good posture and positive mind and get their centers back......
Mary

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

And making snide remarks about both individuals doesnt seem to increase your appeal either Mary.
FWIW both of them only made claims about knowing physical aspects that are contained within Aikido, which seems to be lost among most practicioners. Neither of them claim to be saints.
Plus from what Ive seen, both of them have served up more concrete physical information about this stuff than yourself.
Leave it between them ;) Guys will be guys right?

I think both of them have stuff to offer the arts, and itll be an interesting day if they take up Georges offer to show up to AikiExpo.

Speaking of which, George, whats the off chance of Ark getting invited to AikiExpo?? :)

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Dan, Mike, and Ark at an Aiki-Expo? I'd show up.

A group of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out. Quelle Surprise. -- Chas, from rec.martial-arts.

Best,
Ron (looking forward to the trip up, Dan)

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I get a little tired of the "hidden gratuitous shot" in a lot of Aikido conversation, but I've learned over the years that it's de rigeur and almost unconscious. It's a part of the personality that comprises western Aikido as a whole. As I've said before, George, I'll be happy to put you temporarily on QiJing if you want to see what dispassionate and productive discussion can be like between a number of different styles. There's not even any sly digs on QiJing, believe it or not. I still occasionally do Aikido on the mat, George. But what are your personal criteria for me to qualify as "doing Aikido"? Is there some minimum standard I will have to meet? If you could lay it out for me, I'd be glad to review it.

In terms of what I do on the list, frankly the amount of information I've been getting for over a year from various friendly sources in Aikido has made Aikido forums quite productive for my own practices. Plus, in talking about these things, I'm forced to think, formulate, and articulate my thoughts and approaches. It's very productive. Talking, debating, explaining, etc., are good methods of making progress, George. I realize that the Ki and Kokyu basics are not very important to you personally, but I think I can show that all the emphasis on them which Ueshiba placed was worthwhile. Actually, I'm available most of the time, George. You're welcome to come see, if you're really interested. And I've done various 2-day workshops when I've had the time (unlike you, I don't do these things as part of my income, so I pick and choose when I'll do them).... you could have attended if you've had the interest or thought the subject was germane to Aikido. Insofar as doing some sort of quickie at AikiExpo, I wouldn't bother for the same reason that I turn down offers to do quickie workshops at Chinese martial arts expos.... there's not enough time to even get started.

Plus, at a large gathering like Aiki Expo there would be what I call the "Embarrassment Factor"... it's difficult to deal with and it has to do with the problem I've mentioned a few times (just to get it out in the air). Anyone watching the gradual advent of this material getting into western martial arts knows that more and more people are realizing that there is some important factor that demonstrates that all the old Asian talk about "ki" and stuff was something larger and more substantive than most westerners have thought for a while. The number of westerners who have or who are beginning to have *varying degrees* of skills is growing. So what effect does being "a high-ranked dan" have in relation to "doesn't know these basic skills"? I've run into the question for years (long before this last year's surge on AikiWeb, BTW). Generally, most people are friendly and the topic doesn't really come up. But in the case of a bunch of guys/gals at an Aiki Expo who are there in the trappings of status and pecking order.... yet they really should already know this stuff... I see a recipe for problems. And yes, behind the polite, P.C.-speak is often a LOT of passive-aggressive behaviour, George; a fact well-known by many in the Aikido community. So adding that "Embarrassment Factor" with its promise of some sort of passive-aggressive confrontation, I'd say I'm not interested in playing.

I'd agree with Rob's comment and I think you should acknowledge it, too, George.... a LOT of information not commonly known in the Aikido community has been presented gratis on the forum. I've gotten the information (mostly historical, but also a number of things that affect my current practice, too) I wanted and I've tried to give more than I got on these very substantive issues. I feel beholden to people that give me good information and yes, I think it would benefit western Aikido, Taiji, karate, etc., if these stuff were brought out even quicker than it is now. But each person has to make their own choice about whether they're really interested enough to look for all the information pertinent to their own art. If they decide they already know enough, I certainly don't see any reason to spend the time cajoling them into going further. ;^)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

:D Heh. Over the years at various workshops there have always been some Aikido people. On the QiJing list there are a number of Aikido people. Heck, I remember do a workshop purely for an Aikido group near Heidelberg, about 10-12 years ago (and as I've improved, still improve, I look back at some of those workshops and wish I could have done better for all those people). In other words, the interaction with people from different martial arts, including Aikidoists, is nothing new, as far as I'm concerned.

However, just to keep it on the table, let me say that while I have a lot of friends in the Aikido community, going back to the mid-70's, there are also a lot of people in Aikido who I don't have the highest regard for. The superficial "Aiki Speak" stuff far too often hides a petty, "gotcha"-type personality. There are people who are interested in these ki things, Ron, and there are people who are anxious that this talk of ki things either go away or be trivialized so their own knowledge can continue to shine through unblemished in the Aikido community. One of the reasons I'd personally be reluctant to go ton Aiki Expo is because it disturbs me to see people playing Aikido Sage while actually being distressingly human in their foibles. But then, to be fair, I see that sort of behaviour at every Expo and gathering of all martial styles. Not that there aren't a lot of good people at these things.... it's just that the number of role-players can be distressingly high. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Now I don't have a p[roblem with people stating their opinion on something and arguing a point, and disagreeing, hell its what these forums are meant for.

What really bugs me is that a lot of the time it comes in the form of 'let me tell you why you are wrong' rather than 'here's what i think' and no one likes to be told that they are wrong, so bad feelings start and people go on the defensive, they feel like they are getting cornered and so look for ways to get strikes in so that they can get out of it. Much like in physical fights.

This leads to stupid bitching and in a few posts everyone has forgotten what the post was even about to begin with. I mean honestly, its like listening to 4year olds. So why dont we just stick to the post, and what we think about what the one point is without making reference to "he said this, she said that" "well i have kicked this guys butt", "oh yeah well when was that coz im gonna ask him" crap.

So my two pence, for what its worth. Ki can be whatever you want to think of it as being. IF you are worrying about if your idea of ki is the right one then you are going to loose your center in the mele in your mind. I think Ki can be another step in your aiki progression if you want it to be. But i have met and trained with some people who i feel have very solid (by which i mean it hurts like hell :) ) technique but don't put it down to Ki. But hell, i have only just started to scratch the surface of my aikido training (3 years) and who knows, i may "have my eyes opened" and suddenly find that i have been missing the big picture.

But i dont think it should be made to seem that people who don't focus on Ki are lacking in some way, or that they are just playing at aikido. we are all on the same journey, some may have just took a left turn at that fork in the road a few years back, while others went right and some went straight on. If there is no concrete destination, how can anyone be lost.

(okay, so that last statement came out far more profound sounding than i expected it to.)

Steve

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Mike,
You are in a group of folks that has some substantial Aikido experience in the past but has chosen to pursue other martial arts as his main focus. This puts you in the same boat with all the Koryu folks, most of whom started in Aikido, who later abandoned serious practice of the art in order to pursue other training (Larry Bieri sensei is the only one of the bunch who has kept up his Aikido). I include Ellis Amdur in this group as well.

Just because you have some insights into areas which could substantially benefit us, as practitioners of Aikido, doesn't mean that you are an Aikido guy. Ellis is teaching Aikido workshops all over the country but that doesn't make him an Aikido guy either. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't attend one of his classes, in fact I have had him to my dojo on a couple of occasions to conduct his workshops. He knows enough about Aikido to have intelligent, relevant things to say about it. But he's not an Aikido guy either.

Some of us are on the mat every single day doing Aikido. Our primary focus is on Aikido. If we do other training it is to make our Aikido better. That's what I mean by "doing Aikido". The fact that you have done Aikido doesn't make you an Aikido guy in my eyes any more than the fact that I have done some koryu, some escrima or some systema makes me a real practitioner of those other arts.

This isn't a slight on you in any way. You and I have corresponded and I think you understand that I am quite interested to see what you have to show us. I strongly suspect that you have some very valuable information to impart. My only problem has been that between my own teaching schedule, the commitment I have to support my own teacher's events, and the fact that I am still a Dad, it takes me a while to get to all the events that are on my "shopping list" so to speak. You and Dan are high on my list of folks to check out.

At least you are willing to step out and share what you know with interested folks. Jimmy Sorrentino repeatedly renews his invitation to have Dan do a workshop at his dojo and gets no positive response. If it's so important to let us know that we, as Aikido practitioners, are missing some crucial elements in our training, then why isn't it equally important to show the Aikido community execatly what those elements are?

As for the Expo thing... I think you are making excuses. I have demo-ed or taught classes at each of the Expos. Sure, if you are not one of the "Big Ten" instructors, or a Soke, or somesuch, you don't get much time to show your stuff. But most of the real important interaction was off the mat between training sessions anyway. It's really about making connections between people. I've made a whole array of good friends by attending the Expo and it has paid off in my training.

The folks that I know who have had serious back-off about the Expo were all folks who basically had a hard time handling group situations and were sensitive to the issue of "being judged". They didn't like appearing somewhere they weren't center stage and couldn't control the interactions to their own satisfaction. The Expo is an event that is about showing your stuff. You have to "take the risk" of putting your stuff out there for all to see. If some meaningful technique gets imparted, that's great. For many of the senior folks who had a deep foundation, I know the training there had some serious impact.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Well, then, we're back to my "Dumb Ole Asians" theory. ;) If Ki is anything you want it to be, then those DOA's' opinions about martial arts are a waste of time because anything we do is just as good as anything they came up with. Heck... I wonder why they gave weird names to something that wasn't even important as a concept.

I love relativism. ;)

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Not at all Mike my point was, that is what they want to think of Ki as being, who can say if its right or wrong. If mr red thinks of Ki as being some esotric form of hidden power then that up to him, if mr blue thinks its just a frame of mind then its up to him, if mr yellow thinks that its all about the physics of how you put your body then why not. Its all cricket.

Why do we all have to think the same way about something, isnt diversity what makes life fun

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Good points, George, but remember that my question was essentially what minimum criteria it would take to clarify the rhetorical discussion of who "does Aikido". I think that having done "some Aikido" is better than "never did Aikido", but after that it gets murky to me.

Think about it in terms of Taiji (Tai Chi in Wade-Giles), so that we can be a bit more dispassionate. There are tons of people who "do Taiji" who have no qi/jin skills. The Chinese who really do Taiji simply look at it and say "not Taiji". Much blunter than I am, believe it or not, but I would say the same thing even if they have been "teaching Taiji and know all the applications" for 20 years. ;)

So now take Ushiro Sensei's comments once about "no kokyu, no Aikido". My point is that saying who does Aikido and who doesn't can lead to an emotional discussion, particularly if someone has "done Aikido" for a number of years. This issue of Ki and Kokyu skills is unique in the way that the idea of "who has experience in Aikido" becomes very murky. That being said, I just happen to like it as a philosophical discussion while in the real world I don't emote about it very much. ;) No, I'm serious. I couldn't constructively show anything in a too-limited environment. It's a *reason*, not an "excuse". I've even "gone outside" with a few guys at expo's who wanted to make a point... but kicking someone's butt doesn't make the point either. It's simple and yet it's very complex, George... I don't mind spending the time occasionally trying to show and explain, but it's simply not possible in the Expo environment. I've done things like it before. It does not work. Yeah, but I read that as a form of minimalization, George. If someone doesn't accept an invitation to Expo, then there is a negative connotation that implies their stuff isn't the real stuff and therefore it can be trivialized. I would suggest in turn that showing well at Aiki Expo has little or nothing to do with the validity of these skills. How about the possibility that many Aikidoists would feel more secure in being surrounded by their own equally knowledgeable-or-ignorant peers when looking at something which may or may not upset their applecart. Fair enough?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I get what you are saying... it's my experience, however, that there was plenty at each Expo to "upset people's applecarts". But the folks who didn't want to deal with it just ignored it. Some of us went precisely to have our applecarts upset and others went to show everybody else how great their style was. The most important things I got out of the Expo experiences was from the non-Aikido teachers. I personally know several 6th dan level folks whose Aikido has changed completely since the Expos because of exposure to some of those teachers. Ikeda Sensei, who, along with Pat Hendricks Sensei, were the only ones of the of the "top dogs" who attended the classes of the other teachers, has changed in very noticeable ways since that training. The relationship he has established with Ushiro Sensei has been extremely important, in particular. So, I know for a fact that there were plenty of sincere "seekers" at the events. These are folks with enough background that I suspect, you could impart something worthwhile to, even if it were just a short time period. At least it would be a good way to establish that personal relationship that makes exchange much easier. Just my own thoughts...

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Fair enough, George. As I've said, I've been to enough of those venues that I have satisfied myself that they offer very limited abilities for substantive exchange. And then too, think how many people get a chance to watch O-Sensei's performances on Stan Pranin's videos and yet how many of them haven't picked up any ki/kokyu/jin skills, even though they positively admired watching O-Sensei and had some warm feelings about him personally.

Frankly, one of my main positions is that at a higher level almost all of the Asian martial arts use these principles when they're "real". Yet the average Aikido observer currently can't pick that out and anything that doesn't resemble the "Aikido" they're used to seeing probably won't ring a bell. On a personal level, I tend to think that working with a few good "martial artists" with a "good heart" is more satisfying than all the public demonstrations I've done to "promote the art" of any sort.

Despite Ushiro Sensei showing some perspective of "kokyu" (I've only seen a couple of film clips)... something that Ikeda Sensei picked up on... how much interest has been shown in the Aikido community? Almost none, statistically. Maybe the problem is not the people who won't conform to Aikido, but the Aikido community perspective? It's a debatable point.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I don't know Mike...Ikeda Sensei specifically invited Ushiro Sensei to a well attended summer camp, and people like George (another top dog in the art in the States) participated and spoke well of the event. And even teachers in the Yoshinkan are building bridges with Ikeda Sensei (they go to him and he goes to them).

I'd say we are off to a pretty good start, relatively. My experience at the Expo was much as George's; many people shared on many different levels. The demos were the smallest part of the exchange. The workshops and private sessions were the meat. And that would be the venue I would want to see someone showing these skills in...not a demo.

Best,
Ron

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Been to all three Aiki-Expos. Had a great time in training, cross-training, discussion, and friendly conversation.

While I have not heard of any plans to do it again, I would hope there continues to be venues we can meet and share our experiences directly on the mat. So much of this is hard to put into words.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Hi Ron:

You're talking "relatively" (although I don't know in relation to what), but I said "statistically". For instance, how much conversations in re Ushiro, kokyu, etc., do you see in the community or the forums right now? I can appreciate that, Ron. It speaks well of your impressions of the Aiki Expo. However, you and George seem to just dismiss my comments about why the time and other constraints wouldn't work for me, even though I have broad experience at "expo's" and "tournaments". You seem to be more interested in defending Aiki Expo as some sort of validating venue for Aikido. Too bad O-Sensei was never able to attend. ;)

There seems to be a strong undercurrent, in my opinion, of a sort of "conform to the community if you want to be taken seriously". I've seen this same thing in Taiji and other arts. To be taken seriously, someone needs to find a legitimate place in the pecking order, it would appear. Although I recognize this sort of thing and I tend to be fairly friendly, I also make an effort to NOT become part of any social organization, Ron. I realize that it irritates a lot of peoples' herd instincts, but in my experience the first step on the road to Hell is to become a part of any social community.

I once had a friend of mine extend an invitation to join a "Taoist Club". My first comment was, "Do Taoists form clubs????". They don't. A club is the antithesis of the Tao. Yet even though Aikido is supposed to be a "Tao" or "Do" in exactly the same sense, the vast majority of practicing Aikidoists are involved in a community conformity. But so are most other martial arts engaged in similar social pursuits, for the most part. I just tend nowadays to engage on a friendly level with the real "seekers".... and they're easy to spot, as opposed to the people who are "seekers" to the extent that their social stature requires it.

Not that I want to offend people... don't get me wrong... but I could easily point out that the pressure to conform or to make "personal relationship that makes exchange much easier", as George said, is itself unwarranted and presumptive. ;)

I kinda like these threads in "Open Discussions" sometimes.

Best.

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Mike, you are reading way too much into this. I have no interest in defending the Expo, the experience spoke for itself to those who were there and those who weren't don't know. I don't look at the Expo as some sort of "validating" experience except insofar as it was the first time I have ever done my Aikido in the presence of so many people who are my seniors and peers. In my own organization, I am fairly senior.

Sure, I was happy that, after the exposure I got, I was able to forge some wonderful long term relationships with teachers whom, I see as at the top of their game.

This issue of being taken seriously... what does that mean? If people who don't know very much take you seriously, is that significant? If people who are really excellent take you seriously, doesn't that count for something with you? It does for me... The individuals capacity for self delusion is almost infinite. I definitely take the respect of my seniors and peers to be an indication that I am on the right track.

The Expo gave me a chance to enlarge the number of folks I know who are REALLY at the top of their game. No one gives a **** about a pecking order.... It's not as if being up on the Aikido "pecking order" is some ticket to fame and fortune... After thirty years and three Expos my teaching income is just starting to cover what I spend on training. But I count myself fortunate that I can pick up the phone or send an e-mail to some of the best martial artists I know and they will respond in kind. I sincerely do not think that I am in some sort of "pecking order" with Chuck Clark Sensei or Toby Threadgill Sensei. I don't think Todd Jones Sensei spends any time at all worrying about where we stand relative to one another on some mythical pecking order. The relationship I am developing with Francis Takahashi Sensei is extremely important to me and would never have happened without the Expo. The fact that he started Aikido when I was 4 yrs old is enough of a marker as to where I feel I stand relative to him... These folks have become close friends, not competitors for the Aikido world's esteem... Isn't that what the Expo was really about?

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Well, if we are going to talk 'statistically', then we have to have actual statistics. Since we don't... ;)

Actually, a fair amount. We are in one right now :) There are at least 3 active threads here, one on e-budo on these matters and judo, there was a recent one on rec.martial-arts, etc.

I certainly don't mean to be dismissive...I'm just providing an alternate viewpoint. And it has nothing to do with 'validating aikido', since aikido is not the only art there. I'm defending the workshops as good places to learn whether it's Systema, Karate, internal skills, or anything else.

I do see this, you are correct. I don't blame you for stepping outside of it. That's why I've always tried to support viewpoints like yours and Dan's and others.

Well, sometimes you have to break a few eggs. ;) But I happen to agree with George that "personal relationship that makes exchange much easier". It's a fact, whether we like it or not. No surprise it's a fact here same as anywhere else.

Best,
Ron

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Part of my previous point was that people at Aiki Expo, according to their posts, largely didn't understand the concept of what Ushiro meant by kokyu power. I would refer you back to a thread on Aikido Journal which you yourself participated in. It was an astonishingly short thread, though. And yes, one of my favorite comments to people is "who do you want to take you seriously... the masses or the few true experts in a given field?". Insofar as being on the right track, I think anyone on the right track can duplicate Tohei's "Ki Tests" on the spot, on demand. Since the "Ki" body skills are the basis of Aikido and aiki, wouldn't that be a better gauge than the "respect" of others? (Yes, I'm being a gadfly). I never said anything about "competitors" and the nuance you're shifting to isn't what I meant, George. But I understand your position.

Regards,

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I've got nothing against your position, Ron. Personally I go by either someone's ability or by their honest efforts to search out information. There are people on QiJing, for instance, whom I personally dislike, but they're on there for their knowledge or for their genuine interest in getting at this heart of Asian martial arts.

"Personal relationships" are a complete side-issue to the real pursuit, as long as reasonable courtesy is involved, IMO. You either know it or you don't... and no one knows it all. If you focus on the core skills and don't get distracted by the social stuff, "personal relationships" of the best kind will develop, in my experience.

Regards,

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

No arguement there. There are people at my dojo that I don't hang with...but on the mat, it's all about what they can do. The dojo where I train probably isn't a good example though...it's always been pretty much about the training there. There was another dojo I trained at which was more guilty of the things you mention. I'm not there anymore...

The point is...even if the nature of the relationship is not that of "best buds", it is still a relationship. That's all I am saying...not some fluffy bunny psychobable feel good, I'll jack you if you'll jack me kind of thing. ;)

Best,
Ron

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

One of the real problems with the jin/kokyu things is, as I mentioned, that it's not something that can be shown/taught in some quicky sessions as an expo-type setting. In fact, it's one of those things that keeps expanding, fractal-like, as you get into it. For years I've fought to keep the workshop discussions as simple as possible and yet provide sort of a big-picture overview (mainly because I don't like doing workshops that much and I'd rather just show what I know and get out of peoples' lives). But it's complicated and some things can't really be shown/taught until one's body has developed a certain amount of abilities/skills.

Take the "One Point" discussion that this thread is an offshoot of. It seems like a simple discussion that someone says "what's that", an answer is given, and everyone moves on. But that's not true; the "one point" or "tanden" or "dantien" is actually a complex concept because, like so much of the nomenclature around "ki", etc., there is no one-to-one easy conveyance of the concept.

(1.) If someone legitimately talks (as opposed to some of the pretentious BS that always floats around) about "breathing to the one point", they mean "breathe to the seika-no-tanden". In the start of this "breathing to the navel" or "condensing the breath/ki to the navel", the practical matter is learning to condense the breath pressure at the lower abdomen area. After some months of practice doing this, a pressure area develops there.... that's the start of a lot, but not all, of the "ki to the navel" discussion and the "one point" is the imaginary center of that pressure area.

(2.) And yes, that area is near the center of mass of the body, but that's really a tangential issue to the point. When you move the body the center of mass, *supported by the power from the ground* is the strongest area to apply force from. A path from the ground (that's the real "mass" you want to use, BTW, the "earth") must go from the ground to the tanden to the object of the push, pull, etc. That means it can't really be manipulated by the shoulder, so the tanden becomes the manipulation point. The "one point" is the center of that manipulation point.

(3.) Lastly, there is a control of the body "connection" that is very hard to describe to someone who has not felt it or who has not developed some part of it through breathing and focused stretching cum jin exercises. But when you feel this odd additive to the body's abilities (it sounds strange, but then just describing how to wiggle one's ears sounds strange to someone who has never done it or seen it), there is indeed a sort of focused "one point" of "feeling". Being sort of an analytic cynic, I suspect that point of focussed feeling has a lot to do with the fact that you've developed that area... i.e., if you really worked at it, for some weird reason, you could probably develop a "one point" feeling in some other part of the body.

The point in the stuff above was that just in this small part of the whole subject of ki, it gets pretty complicated to go through and describe... much less time though than it would take to lead people to where they can feel and do these things themselves. A quicky at an AikiExpo would simply be too limited a venue to even get started. Good relationships or not. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I understand that you may not be able to teach it at an expo. The point of an expo is not to teach, but to show ideas, possibilities and to demonstrate concepts.

I would fully expect to be wow'd by your technique and how effective or different it was to anything I'd ever felt before as I came at you within the parameters that we agreed upon in which the demonstration would take.

The only issue I have had, and not necessarily with you Mike, is those that have professed to possess abilities, but then cannot demonstrate them effectively within the parameters we establish/agree upon.

No doubt that there are guys that can lift heavy weights with their penises. However, what is impressive to me is that you can translate that skill into something that is remotely useful to generally accepted within the martial arts or sports community, and be able to effectively demonstrate how it adds to or increases the effectiveness of the sport/art.

Saying, I'd show you but there is not enough time. Or I'd show you, but you do not have the right skill level, or I'd show you but then I'd have to kill you, generally peaks my BS meter right up there. You should be able to demonstrate this stuff on some level regardless of the time/skill level involved.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Kevin, despite discussing this exact same issue before, and a couple of others along exactly the same lines (remember when I discussed the example using Wendy Rowe??? If she can't kick my ass with Aikido, does that mean that Aikido is useless??? Remember the conversation????), and you backing off and pretending to be polite, you keep coming back with this same crap. I'm tired of it. I'm talking about not having the ability to teach the principles of this form of strength to any useable degree in an expo format.... you're back to the same BS about "if I can't whip somebody's ass at Aiki Expo then it's useless, yada, yada, yada." Go back and read your posts on the "Jo Trick" thread... we've BEEN through this, Kevin. If you want to see what I have, come see me.... don't start this backhanded trivialization by distorting it to "can you kick ass with it" crap again. It's chickenshit. You've come back to this same approach between 5 and 10 times now.


Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Preach it Brother Kevin!

Sounds about like time for a throwdown, neh?

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Actually, I think it's time for some of the Aikido people and Koryu people to start wondering how they "teach", but they don't seem to understand the physical body skills that all the "ki" discussions are about. Including the "stillness in motion", Reiki-no-ho, etc... those are all part of the "ki" body skills.

Instead of trying to divert the discussion to a "throwdown at Aiki Expo", just show up. My comments about discussing a complex subject not being suited for quicky venues still stands. So far, instead of politely acknowledging that as a possibility (Ron being somewhat of an exception), all I get is some mindless tangents.

The real question, Chuck, for someone supposedly knowledgeable in Koryu and Aikido, is why your archived comments about "ki" are so far off. How do you justify it? Is the best solution for you to trivialize these body skills that you apparently have no real knowledge of?

Regards

Mike Sigman