Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Hey guys. Glad I was referred to this site, looks great.

Probably a bit heavy for a first post but I've been waiting to find a forum like this for a while.

I've been learning and studying aikido for a while now and I'm having a blast.
Aside from going to class and doing all that stuff I've been doing a lot of reading on the spiritual aspect of aikido. Art of peace and what not.
The whole love thy enemy get, rid of your ego, respect everyone all life is sacred stuff is really clicking for me. I've implemented this stuff in my life, How I deal with people at work and at home and how I approach challenges etc..

Here is my spiritual issue however.

I'm a soldier and I'm heading overseas in a few months for my third tour. I'm having a problem trying to understand how I can practice 'the art of peace' while in that environment. The main idea (open to argument I'm sure) of Aikido is to take someone who is trying to hurt you and disarm them without harm coming to you OR them. Unfortunately some of the people I will deal with won't give me that option. If I for example don't shoot to kill then I am putting my life in danger and those around me, military and civilian. Seconds will mean the difference between life and death. I can't see a way to avoid hurting people in this situation, these guys are not going to give me many options.
Now I don't have a problem against it. It's my job and while I won't enjoy having to hurt someone, I won't hesitate to do it for an instant. I'm just trying to figure out how I can apply aikido principals to the environment I am in and the job I will be doing.

The military seems like an odd environment for aikido due to the training, conditioning, aggression and personalities the army often attracts, especially in the combat arms. That said the few aikidoists I've spoke with in the military seem to really have their stuff together. Their self control professionalism and respect seem to rub off on those around them, I just need some advice on how I can start along that path.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

In my mind, practicality must aim toward idealism, but idealism must yield to practicality. Use your wits and your senses and do your best, beyond that, I can't give any specific advice because, for one thing, I'm not in the military. However, it sounds as if you're already pretty well along that path you described.
Gambatte, Okiotsukete, Ogenkide,
Matthew

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Welcome, Grant. I hope members here will offer you their many facets of expereince on your very pointed, important and timely question.

Let me begin, not in my words, but in O-Sensei's:

"Realizing in your heart that
life and death looms before you
You might wish to withdraw
But the enemy will not let you."

And,

"Thinking that I am in front of him
The enemy raises his sword to attack
But, lo, I am already standing behind him."
Aikido is not about peace unless it is also about war. I firmly believe that none can make peace who cannot also make war. I am personally saddened only that the first go round of the Gulf War (which was my turn) did not ensure that you were not called upon to do it now.
Aikido is training in a way of thinking about conflict, not of force on force, but of victory without directly opposing your force to that of the enemy. It is the practical methods and principles that Sun Tzu described as "Supreme art in war is to defeat the enemy without fighting." He did not say it was the only way, or even necessarily an available way in all circumstances.

One cannot compel an enemy to give up the error of bringing conflict to you. You can minimize the scope of response, and dissipate his tactical effort by appropriate use of aiki. This way of thinking works in hand -to- hand, blade weapons, and in small arms also. The techniques of aiki are training your body, but also you mind and heart. They teach you to look for (and occasionally even find) a response that more likely to destroy the enemy's attack, without destroying the enemy.

Aikido is a strategic paradigm. That is not to say it is of use only to armchair officers and planners. Strategy is the art of choice among available tactics. Aikido techniques school you in reacting to the enemies' strategic choices in ways that minimize your input of energy/effort/or planning, which are all precious commodities in short supply in a hot contact situation.

My first teacher Dennis Hooker Sensei has said before, (and here recently) that he has his aiki of war and his aiki of peace. It was too good a quote not to steal.

It has been told that, in hearing that a number of people survived the sinking of the Titanic, someone remarked that "God was with those that were rescued." Someone else overhearing this, said in reponse, "God was with those who were drowning also." The point being that our view is not God's view. Our wars are not God's wars, and our peace is not His peace.

If an attacker dies in a violent encounter, and the survivor used aikido techniques to save himself or others, it does not mean that the aikido failed because the attacker died. All measures are finite and some results are not avoidable. Take no blame for the results of necessary acts. If you choose always among the tactics available to you, those choices that reduce the necessity of escalation, that provide space for an enemy to end rather than reignite conflict, you have done all that honor and duty require.

What those choices may be in the immediate need you will not have the luxury of knowing in advance. Aikido training will help you learn to make the choices ultimately given to you, immediately, intuitively, and in ways that guide you to the channels of de-escalation, when you must respond directly to threatened or feared aggression.
I never found it odd. You shouldn't either. There are good groups practicing in Iraq. I know of a good Marine who routinely trains young Marines in aikido at Camp Lejeune, and was there recently or is there now. A good dojo mate of mine is shipping out for a National Guard tour in Iraq also, he trains in aikido and iaijutsu.

My own Gulf War deployment experience (Navy) made me value my jo and bokken. (Hint: never try ukemi on non-skid.) It is remarkable to me how much the mere motions of the basic kata I knew at the time, played out in variations, have added depth to my practice. it is good, calming and a good stress reducer, especially when you have NOT been able to set eyes (or outgoing rounds) on the enemies setting munitions against you.

Keep practicing!

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Hey Grant, looks like you found us!

As you probably already know, I am in the U.S. Army as an Infantry Officer. I work at the largest U.S Training area in Europe. I spend most of my time directly training or influencing troops to go "down range". In additon, from time to time I too deploy to various locations.

In my personal life I practice and follow the tenants and philosophies of buddhism, I am a vegetarian on top of that...and pretty much try and follow a path of peace or non-violence.

As you already know, it is a complicated and conflicted life we can lead as soldiers. It can be hard at times to reconcile our personal beliefs with those of our country, citizens, and institutions. It has been a hard road for me at times to make sure I am doing the right things.

I look forward to discussing my experiences with you. I hope they will be of help. I cannot recall the particular books, articles or essays...but the Dali Lama has been an inspiration for me in his writings and has helped guide me in my path. His writings showed me that the world is not necessarily "black or white".

I would recommend reading some of his things.

In a small space I will tell you this. This is how I see it for me right now....I try and train and influence the people I am around as best I can by setting a good example. I don't preach, criticize, or lecture...I simply try and "be the change I want to see in the world". (Ghandi) We need good soldiers in the world that understand peace as well.

I train my soldiers to have the best skills they can. I train them in combatives, I try and help them understand ethics and our Army Values, which are not in conflict with my values BTW. I hope that when the time comes that they will make the best decision they can make, and hopefully make it in a caring and compassionate way...as best they can.

Look at SGT Alvin York as well, a U.S Soldier, but a conscientious objector who made some tough decisions and went on to do great things.

I think guys like you and I make some of the best soldiers because we take the time to really understand peace.

I am happy to talk off line with you as well if you have topics of a more personal nature. PM me if you'd like!

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Oh also this, I am not sure how it works in the Canadian Army...but if you can, go discuss it with your Chaplain...he might have some insights and be of help as well.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Soldiers all over the globe put their life in danger to protect the life of civilians of legitimate nations. Sometimes, circumstances dictate you to kill, sometimes it dictate you save lives. What are we but only a servant to our nation and political masters. Kill if you must, but take no joy at such action only that you are duty bound to carry the action on the bequest of your oath. Do what you must but do it justly, honourably and with compassion even against the bitterest of enemies.

<Esoteric mode off>

Boon.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Wow, that is the most serious question anyone has ever posted in this forum.

Good luck and please share your wisdom upon your safe return.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Used to train the DND provos at 15 Wing in Moose Jaw before they headed out to Haiti back in the 90's.

One piece of advice from one of my Shihan many years ago (paraphrased):

"Ai means harmony. When someone is attacking you with a gun, defending yourself with a knife is not harmonious. If they have a .38 you should have a .45."

Basically, don't take a knife to a gunfight.

Harmony is about fitting in with your environment and those around you. You try and elevate those around you if you can. It's called "hearts and minds". You do the best you can under the circumstances by fitting in to the situation. But, don't place yourself and your buddies into harm's way just because you want to be "nice". You have a job to do and you have to do that first. That will keep you and your buddies safe. You can't be of any good to anyone if you and your buddies are dead or grieviously wounded.

By seeming naive and kind, you just make yourself a target for those who want a soft target and to do maximum damage. BE PROFESSIONAL. That means being fair, equitable, alert, and careful.

You don't have to be a Rambo but you aren't there to be nice. People don't appreciate nice as much as they appreciate fair, especially in a war zone. You are there to provide stability and a chance for the locals to pull themselves out of the mire. You aren't there to do everything for them, no matter how desperate their case may seem.

Remember the parable of the scorpion and the fox trying to cross the river. You aren't there to change the nature of the people but to allow them the choice to determine their own destiny.

Rock

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

IMHO (from an old Army recon/fo/S2 grunt), get out of your head (internal mental obsessing does not lend itself to good external awareness), let your training speak for itself and just do what the situation dictates, keep you eyes open, your head down, cover each other's back, and leave no one behind.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Thank you for the great replies. This was exactly what I was looking for and more than I expected!

I feel many people falsely give aikido a bad rep. Without taking the time to truly learn about it or ask questions they hear someone talking about how it's 'not really fighting' or non-violent and pass judgment. By the sounds of it many people translate this into aikido being about running away or not hitting someone back. It's not a real martial art because it's not practiced in UFC or in some kind of cage fight.

I think many people take the aggressive/violent path because they don't know any better or society expects them too. It's easy to hurt someone, especially when they've hurt you first.
Before studying aikido I've been in at least three situations with the military where according to our rules of engagement I could have used lethal force. I choose not to because I was able to defuse the situation without hurting anyone. I was disappointed that some of my younger peers couldn't understand why I didn't shoot. "If you were allowed to shoot why didn't you! I would have!". I don't think (hope) this is a case of them wanting to hurt someone so much as it is a case of conditioning (Such as the movie jar head where the marines go crazy because they've completed all the training DON'T have anyone to fight) and because they haven't learned that it's beneficial to use just as much force as required.

In the military or law enforcement (and I'm doing a lot of assuming here) if you get into an altercation with someone and you use your martial arts training to break someones legs and arms, chances are your going to put yourself in hot water regardless of the situation. Especially so due to cameras and the media being everywhere. It's easy to start the footage at the point where you throw someone to the ground and hit them to keep them there, NOT the previous five minutes of said guy throwing rocks at you and trying to hit you in the head with a steel club.

Maybe in the case of soldiers (especially) it can be considered tough love? While your not looking to hurt or injure someone you may have to in order to protect the masses. Practicing the aikido way in this situation means you don't hurt people because you want to but because that person has given you no other option.

I'm confident if required I will do whats needed of me to protect my peers, civilians around me and accomplish the mission. I'm also confident that if someone chooses to do something that requires me injuring or killing them to stop them I'll do it with no malice or hate for them- which to me is what aikido is about. Anyone can comfort a dying friend, it takes someone special to comfort a dying enemy I guess.

That almost seems too simple, I should have thought of that before :D


Again, thank you again for the replies, it's still given me a lot to think about and some very good new perspectives.

Grant

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Grant wrote:

In my experiences people take the violent path when they have fear. Fear is typically bred out of ignorance and inexperience. When you have deep understanding and the proper training, it reduces fear and allows you to have options.


Why we have NCOs and Officers is because younger soldiers have not developed the maturity, wisdom, or knowledge to make proper decisions. One of the reasons I am so adamant about our combatives training in the Army is that I feel it plays an important part in helping soldiers deal with physical and mental conflict directly.


I am glad to hear that. Do make sure that whatever you do, that you go into it with a clear mind and heart. When you are down range and "hot" it is not the time to get philosophical and think. Do all that on your own time and before deploying. If you are conflicted and not thinking straight you are a danger to yourself and your troops!

Set the example, have a clear mind and heart, be honest, and do the right things...and it will work out in the long run!

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

I think the "don't think too much" point is a great one.

At a seminar one of our shihan was talking about the role of the military. He compared it to the role of a doctor. At times a doctor will have to go in with a knife and cut away a part of your body, a tumor for example, so that you as a whole are healthier. In this way a violent act is an act of compassion.

Personally, my belief is that aikido attempts to do the "least possible" harm to an attacker. Least possible sometimes being just moving out of the way, and at others as much as killing an attacker.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Agree. If you don´t want to do absolutely any harm to an enemy, just don´t resist and let him killing you. It would be so unnatural an absolutely non violent martial art, as an art absolutely intended to kill. Every extreme is bad. Ueshiba said 'We must remember that Aikido is BUDO. And we must be strong to defeat evil in World, I think were his words'. Hey, a Nikyo can break a wrist, and a Shiho Nage on the paviment.... Ouch.

Anyway, a martial art doesn´t work only in Self Defense situations. It works in the whole life. So, if one learn to be better thanx to Aikido, is a good inversion I think. This is good for everybody, soldiers included.

And, finally: some day everybody gets licensed from the Army, due to age. Will he rely, when being a civilian, in lethal force (Combatives) only for SD? In war a soldier must 'Kill or get killed', but civilian life is not the same thing. You kill a man, you go to jail. So, for this future life when you won´t have the sad chance to kill your oppponent (this is bad for everybody: for him and for you) you will love Aikido because you will have practised beforehand an art that can be Defensive into the range of action that Law prescribes for civilians, and that can be effective for your body even when you become aged.

My two cents
Dud San

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

I've never seen a contradiction between my Army and Aikido. We seek to deter hostility by being strong. We always strive for the minimum use of force to resolve a conflict. If we capture the enemy, we protect him from harm.

Best of luck to you.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

By blending both you might be able to provide a more aiki solution to replace destruction and conflict

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

In his book, Aikido Shugyo, Gozo Shioda wrote that when he was call for duty in Shanghai during WWII, his aikido sensei i.e., Morihei Ueshiba said, "Gozo, go in peace, you will not be harmed, I have make sure of that".

Not related to this topic, but it sure brought warm fuzzy feeling to me each time I reread that paragraph.

Boon.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

hey grant

i'm not a soldier, but from what i can grasp of it _in search of the warrior spirit_ by richard strozzi-heckler sensei might be of use to you. its (basically) about teaching aikido to green berrets, and deals with a lot of the issues i figure you're thinking about. but if i'm wrong, you still might enjoy it!

jeff.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

I will have some real faith in humanity's chance of surviving and thriving to a more peacefull world, when all an army trains all of its people using the principles and practice of Aikido.

There is no reason why the central 'paradigm' of a modern well trained army could not be built on the core priciples of aikido.
They do not need to be immersed in the 'traditional' elements of dress and ettiquette, but it should be a central part of their combat training.
I respect the position of people like Kevin who are part of the military and doing their best to 'spread the aikido word', through practical application.

I dont think for one minute that aikido should be 'the' only basis for training, it should be a part of many effective techniques, and it doesn't really matter what the names are. Effective combat techniques are many.

The top brass of the military have to be the ones to bring about this change, so I'm not expecting anything soon. ;)

Am I just an idealistic old hippy, or do you guy's think their might be some cause for optimism in the long term?

How close are we to an army being run in this 'enlightened' way?

Just a thought,

regards,

Mark

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

I second that, an essential book for anyone remotely interested in aikido and the warrior/soldier mind.

regards,

Mark

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Good book.

Ideally the military would use the principles of aikido. Directly, they are not ready for it, but the U.S. Army is transforming in a major way, so I think we are moving in the right direction versus the wrong one.

One thing you have to remember on a macroscopic level, the military is a small, specific part of a machine called the United States. So if you look at it that way, it would require society at large to adopt the principles of aikido. The military is but a tactical application of our voters and governments "KI" for lack of a better analogy.

We are however getting much more skillful at laws of conflict and escalation of force. Our combatives program is also a step in the right direction.

Will you ever see traditional aikido being practiced or adopted in the Army in our lifetime? Likely not, it would require a huge shift in values and philosophy in the U.S. as a whole IMO. Will we see the military get much more skillfull in the art of war. Absolutely. From Civil Affairs to soldiers dealing with people...we are getting better at the close fight.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Thanks for addressing the questions I posed Kevin. I agree that society at large would need to adopt the priciples of aikido for it really to take effect in the military. One can always dream...

I'm glad as an insider you see the US military moving towards rather than away from the priciples we are talking about. There is a view from the 'outside' however that says 'not before time too'.
Senior British military officials have gone on record here as saying the US is way too 'heavy handed' in their foriegn dealings. Their view is born of a long history of overseas 'skirmishes' inherent in running a global empire. That the Brits tend to use a 'soft' approach, trying to win over the hearts and minds of the local population has been fairly well documented. Some of this strategy comes from the SAS tactics of infiltration and subversion. (I'm not an expert, just an watcher of documentaries ;) )
This could be seen as a parallel to the hard/soft styles in aikido, they both work towards the same ends, but sometimes more blood gets spilled in the former.

This is not an attack on you or the military, if anything, as you say the military is a reflection of society as a whole. It just highlights different emphasis.

It's not really the right section to air my partisan views, but I am trying to see the big picture in relation to 'aikido priciples'.
The US is like a big, strong aikidoka, they find it hard 'not' to use muscle, after all why not use what you've got?
When one nation tries to 'force' its point of view on another, aiki is not present.
We see/hear the verbal jabbing, thrusting and feinting of the 'diplomats' on the news every day. Military conflict often has this ritual dance before the 'real' fight starts.
The US stance in relation to Iran is interesting, if they don't manage to work it out diplomatically ( I hope they do ) we are all going to get knocked about in the ensuing dogfight. I realise that the top brass do not want to lay down their option to 'punch the other guy squarely in the face' if they don't do as required. But that in itself only makes for clenching of fists and hunkering down on the part of the 'other'.

I realise that global politics are far more complex than us small fry can comprehend. But people are people, if they feel they are under threat, they will respond in quite predictable patterns.
Aikido practice demands that we break free of those patterns, to relax when faced with tension, to not push when being pushed etc.

Trying to break an 'ideology' with force is like trying to smash up water with a sledgehammer, there has to be a less messy and more productive approach.

I'll stop now before I get carried away :D

regards,

Mark
p.s. anyone wanting to highlight the shortcomings of the UK's military in retaliation will only be met with agreement, ;)

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Good comments Mark!

I really cannot comment on the current administrations policies or choices we have made. I have my own opinions, but it is not my place to voice them here.

Anyway, macroscopic or microscopic, I tend to view things from a Karmic standpoint. You reap what you sow. Not being judgemental, but I think it is up to every person to think about his/her actions and figure out the connection between those actions and how they relate to the cause and effect of our miitary action.

If we want to make change in the world, we must all "be the change that we want to see". To me it is really that simple. It is more basic than getting out and voting, lobbying, or sending a few dollars to "save the victims of _____" We cannot absolve ourselves of personal responsibilty of the small choices we make each day! If we want to see things change, we must do the small things.

One way is taking our lessons learned from aikido out into the world.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

I see the U.S. Military as more of a "warrior" force now, rather than a mere "soldier" force. That is the difference between the voluntary acceptance of vocation and the conscript. In addition the American tradition has always been a citizen-soldier model. That's why we make such poor imperialists. The tropps ultimately want to leave where they are sent. The Brits of Empire seemed all too comfortable wherever they landed. Other peoples who have a legitmate historical assumption of imperialist ambition, do not understand this. After we are done in Iraq they might differ in their opinions.

What if you stand between the snarling wolves and the infant nation to give its space to grow so as to defend itself ? How much force should we withhold against the wolves? And human wolves have not even the excuse of hunger.

I agree. But there are many uses of force, some honorable, some not. The late Hussein regime indulged and was invested in dishonorable forms of force, agasint its neighbors and its own poulation. We are not trygin to upend Jordan, and have even made terms with Qaddafi, who has decided ot take the (more) honorable road. That is the present effort with Iran, with the outcome as yet undetermined.

Aiki is defninitely being practiced with Iran. They are being given the means for everything they legitimately they say they want, with the sole exception of the illegitimate ability to do other nations great harm. Their response will now determine their true intent.

Cordially
Erick Mead

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Erick,

Why do you consider illegitimate for Iran to have the ability do do great harm. There's a lot of countries who have this ability. What makes these other countries different?

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

A few things. Iran has no good record of refrianing from the use of nuclear arms, and a well-documented record of pursuing that regime's objectives through covert support of violent terror against civilian populations. It has a specific record of disregarding even the most basic norms of interational relations in the sanctity of foreign representatives, an episode in which its current president personally participated. He has visions of himself "surrounded by a holy fire." Not comforting rhetoric to my ears in this context. Nuclear arms are primarily weapons of terror that work without having to be being employed. That's one reason why MAD worked.

Iran's government cannot be trusted with them.

Unlike, say -- Russia, China, France, U.K., to a lesser extent, India and Pakistan (with several asterisks) and -- so they say -- Israel, and maybe even Japan.

Oh . -- and the U.S.

The Tokyo firebombing killed more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. These are the only use of nuclear arms in hostile action. The bombs used in Japan killed about 103,000. The U.S. War Department casualty estimates, based on figure sfrom Iwojim Luzon and Okinawa placed the likely number of American servicemen dead from invasion of Japan at 100,000 per month and easily a million to take just Kyushu and Honshu. The ratio of American to Japanese casualties in those same battles averaged around 1:3, meaning that native Japanese deaths could very likely be several million more. Truman based his choice to bomb on that calculus.

What similar moral dilemma and crisis of total war does the Iranian regime face that justify development of such weapons -- apart from attempts to maintain power over growing internal dissent by appeals to chest-beating nationalism?

The Iranian people deserve a better government. That government does not deserve nuclear weapons.

Cordially,
Erick Mead



Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Hi folks,

I just wanted to step in and ask that the subject matter in this thread be focused on the matter of reconciling aikido principles and philosophy with being in the military.

If you feel the need to move this subject to a broader context outside of aikido, please take it to the Open Discussions forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Whoah. Talk about reality, disconnected from perception.

Out of respect for the thread topic, I won't go into this disconnect overmuch, unless someone wants to start a new thread topic.

But please...comments like this:

make me wonder how anyone can honestly make these kinds of statements. Consider our current record: Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo, Fallujah, Haditha, Ishaqi, etc.

Granted, these incidents are the exception, rather than the rule.

But, a brief analysis of these events suggests a complicit top-down hierarchy that permits these abuses to go unpunished (and uninvestigated), so long as it doesn't get out in the media.

In short, we do not have, IMO, a "warrior" army. IMO, "warrior army" implies some institutional commitment to a greater, nobler cause. A "warrior army" would not engage in an illegal war without some principled stand against it, as in the case of Lt. Ehren Watada.

No, we have individuals who can be called "warriors" within the US Army: but the US Army could hardly be called a "warrior army:" not without employing a serious dose of historic amnesia (for a remedy of this amnesia, I suggest reading A People's History of the US).

I believe that a great many Philippines, Hawaiians, Cubans, etc. might disagree. In the words of General Smedley Butler:

So, to tie it all back into the first post: yes, I agree with all the points about using Aikido as a means to become a better warrior.
But the US Army has a long, long way to go before it can properly be called a "warrior army." Warriors engage in self-reflection; and self-correction. In an insititutional warrior army: this would translate to full, transparent investigations of itself; and a firm commitment to uphold its moral directives (i.e., the Geneva Conventions).

The US Army cannot even properly be called a "volunteer" force anymore: the way we're operating now--we're more properly called a "volunteer/privatization" force. Some of the worst abuses were caused by unsupervised contractors, who do not have the same commitments to the Geneva Conventions, as a US soldier should.

CAN a privatized mercenary with no clear mandates for rules of engagement employ Aikido techniques, to transform into a warrior? I suppose it's possible, but IMO the next mercenary might well be just as prone to moral slacking, with no centralized code of conduct, as a moral center. In a dojo where there is no Sensei and the rules are vague, with little fear of retribution: why adhere to rules?

No, the only rule to adhere under these circumstances is CYA...cover your (and your buds') a#%. Make sure you get out alive, and leave the finer details to whomever signs the checks, for later.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Neil,

This topic is not about politics, but about a soldier from the Canadian Army trying to reconcile his personal beliefs with those of war.

As Jun states, it is about reconciliation and doing right actions, not about politics. In all due respect, I have never come in and dumped all over your threads, I'd expect you to show the same kind of respect on this one. If you have something of value to contribute along a positive vein that is about reconciliation and ethics, then by all means please contribute.

I have no issue with your politics as long as you keep them in the forum they belong in and keep them pointed at the civilian sector, but once you come in and start messing around with soldiers and soldier ethos I start taking it a little bit personally.

I am assuming you have never been a soldier or in the military, so I really don't think you are qualified to have an opinion about what soldiers think, feel, or do. Maybe you have seen some bad acts, or had some bad experiences. I am sorry if that is the case.

The majority of us have families, would love nothing more than to have no war and to have peace, and essentially want the same thing out of life that you do.

As a citizen of the U.S. you are a part of the process to make change. (please refer to my earlier post).

Again, if you have something to add about aikido and implementation of the art or martial arts in general in the military, then please contribute. Again this is not an area to get on your soap box. Keep it in open discussion please.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Kevin,

As Jun stated,

Now I took that admonishment very seriously. I felt that simply calling our Army a "warrior" army was an incorrect assessment of the current function and make-up, of this army.

I'm sorry that you felt the need to label my post as "dumping." And in point of fact, I was being very respectful. I challenge you to go back and find one sentence, where I showed a lack of respect.

Now then...

Good: I hope you do. It is your job, after all. I meant it personally; but with no disrespect. I hope you now see the difference.

Nope, never have been a soldier; probably never will. And no, I am not qualified to express myself as some sort of authority on the subject.

But not qualified to have an opinion?? Since when are people not qualified to have an opinion?? Do I need to sign a verification now, before I post an opinion...? Please.

More to the point: I was talking about the function of the Army, rather than what soldiers think/feel, etc. And since I'm partly footing the bill for what this Army does: well then, IMO, that makes me MORE than an expert...that makes me complicit, in their actions.

So no: I cannot expertly state how a soldier should think...but I certainly can state (with some assurance) that they, as an Army, are not acting, as warriors.

A Warrior Army, IMO, has a central moral code...a volunteer/privatized Army, does not.

As I have attempted, several times in the past. I am sorry my post made you feel defensive: but it was not intended as an attack upon soldiers.

The topic, again: was about Aikido and the military. Now IMO, that also includes a discussion about the Army as a whole, as opposed to the Army as individual soldiers.

If you cannot see the relevance of this topic within the discussion, then we can agree, to disagree.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Neil,

I refer you to the first post made by Grant:

This is the focus of discussion.

Not if you think Soldiers are warriors or not. How I define myself, or you define yourself, or what you identify with is irrelevant to the discussion. Personally I define my soldiers and myself as warriors. To debate that here though is not what this is about.

What I would be interested in is how you feel a soldier can reconcile his beliefs about valuing life and peace and harmony with the act of going to war and dealing with the conflict that such an environment can create.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Respectfully, I take issue with this assertion. A discussion takes many roads, and the last few posts have broached the topic of the spiritual function of the Army.

Again, I'm sorry that you take issue with my opinions, but I fail to see how my take on the subject is anything other than a continuance of the topic.

To me, it seems as if you are attempting to establish a "political correctness" gauge to this thread...you can ONLY talk about individual soldiers' beliefs, and NOT their function, as an Army.

Or, you can ONLY express your opinions here, if you are a soldier.

Sorry, I don't march, dance, or tenkan to that tune.

Sez you. I could just as easily use this tack to argue that you have no place discussing the role of Aikido to a soldier, unless you are currently practicing it, as you aren't a "real" Aikidoist unless this were so.

And if I did, I would be just as misplaced, in my assertion.

Well, as you pointed out: I am not a soldier. And so, I will go with the stance of Lt. Watada in his recent statements.

IMO, every time you are ordered to pick up a gun to kill: a soldier should examine the moral and legal ramifications behind that order. If he honestly believes that going to war will bring greater peace and harmony to the world: then there is no reconciliation needed...off to war, you go!

But in these politically convoluted times, there are few instances where such simple resolves are clear. But that is an individual choice.

An unknown (and significant) number of soldiers are returning from Iraq and Afghanistan psychically damaged. IMO, many of these soldiers are paying the price, for not reconciling their morals with their orders. It's very sad, but it's also very telling.

Somewhere along the way, some of these soldiers forgot to engage in this vital introspection...and their superiors failed to set a clear moral framework.

If you fail to discuss the latter (as you are attempting to do, here): you leave out a large part of the problem of the soldier's dilemma. It's the elephant in the room...what is the role of the Army, in shaping the individual soldier's moral code?

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

The Army has no spiritual function.

Soldiers in the army are human beings and as such have spiritual needs.

Yes there are many soldiers that are returning from battle and have many psychological issues to deal with. It is a unfortunate casuality of war. One that we as a society must think hard about along with all the other horrors that you present. No one is debating that social issue. It is one that involves not only soldiers but our society as a whole.

No i am not excluding discussing from the topic introspection that people must make as they make a choice about going to war or making decisions to use violence or force. That is a good topic to talk about in this forum. Especially how it relates to the individual.

Absolutely every soldier should question his orders to pick up a gun and kill. At least in the United States we have a military that is volunteer (regardless of the social-economic issue of if we really have a volunteer army or not). By law it is still a volunteer army and as such, no one is required to join the military if they do not believe in the cause. There is also provisions in place for those that "change their minds" and become C.Os.

We also educate soldiers and train them of Rules of engagements, what constitutes lawful orders, and ethics, values and all that good stuff. So they are free to make decisions with in the confines of their faculities. No one sacrifices indiviuality.

In the case of your LT you quote, he made a decsion that he felt was right. He also made a decison and took an oath. Some casualities of war die on the battlefield, others will be along the lines of this LT. He made a courageous stand, and now he will deal with the fallout from that stand. Many people in life will be faced with having to make difficult decisions.

It is why it is important to think, comtemplate, and understand as much as you can about yourself, your beliefs, values, ethics....all stuff dealing with Budo...before you have to pull the trigger. Once you are faced with making that decision under fire, so to speak, it is not the time to change your mind. When you do that, you always will have to deal with the consequences of your action/inaction.

The problems we face in society and the military are very, very complicated. Really the military becomes a distillation or concentration of what problems we face as a society. From segregation, to ethics, and religion...the military has traditionally been the organization that has been the focus of these issues and has typically lead the way to showing our society how you can fix such problems.

I see no difference in this current war. We are facing many, many problems. We as a military are a reflection of society as a whole.

Do we have problems, of course. Are we trying to fix them. I have seen us take many steps and are heading in the right direction.

I spend about 5 hours a week teaching Army Combatives (martial arts). In that course of study it becomes very evident to soldiers that we are asking them to do things. Without preaching I and my fellow instructors always ask them to "think". think about what they are doing, why the are doing it, what they might be asked to do. Think about your emotional state, your family, friends etc.

No, it is not about political correcness, but about trying to help indiviudals...soldiers...be good people, and to do the right things. I am embarrassed and ashamed that many of the bad things happen that we have seen happen. Some people in our miitary make bad choices. I know of no leaders I personally work with, nor my subordinates that feel these actions are just or right.

Can we do more to better prepare people to make good choices? Yes we can, and we are! can we do more...absolutely!

So, to round out and get back on topic.....

It boils down to indiviual action. As Ghandi said "be the change you want to see in the world". For some it may being a peace activist and lobbying for social change. For others it may mean being a soldier and being a leader and setting a good example for other soldiers to follow.

I try not to get caught up in the whole gestalt of the thing as it is overwhelming a complicated. We all have a certain "karma" that puts us where we are in life. What actions we choose has a significant impact on things regardless of how small. What may be right for you may not be right for others. Being judgemental and accusatory, and pointing fingers doesn't solve anything. Exuding the values, and "change" that you want to be, is what is necessary for all of us to do regardless of where we are and what we are faced with.

It might be a Whaling boat as a Green Peace activist, or a Soldier having to make a choice to pull a trigger on a "enemy".

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Kevin,

Congrats, for a thoughtful, and well-written response. Now then...

EVERYTHING, IMO, has a spiritual function...right down to the rocks and stones, lining your streets. Even a seeming absence of spiritual direction from an organization still propounds a spiritual imperative.

And of course the Army provides a spiritual direction...just look at their mottos:

Look at some of these keywords...Strength, Freedom, Leadership, Integrity...all of these are spiritual signposts, if you will. Maybe they don't always advocate specific spiritual practices (i.e., meditation); but I'm sure that the Army has experimented with it, at least to enhance soldier capability.


Yes. Sure, it's society's burden.

But, what about the Army? They have a significant role to play in the way soldiers behave on the battlefield.

(very difficult-to-prove provisions, I might add)

Well, apparently, in light of Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Fallujah, et al: the Army seems to be falling down in its role to train its soldiers in what consititutes "lawful orders."

(Or, can we simply dismiss a Marine Corps-attempt to cover up a clear war-crime on spiritual grounds, merely by saying that that is not their function...?)

I don't know the answers to these questions (as I am talking about the "spiritual," as opposed to the "legal"), but your elaboration leaves holes in the role (and responsibility) of the institution of the Army, when these spiritual directives are not met.

Yes. I am reminded of a doc about the Kent State killings in the '60's. The film simultaneously showed two interviewee's (a decade aftter the massacre)...one a protestor, the other a National Guardsman, both relating their feelings at that moment. The protestor was expressing his disbelief and confusion, while the soldier kept saying "this isn't happening: this isn't happening."


Yes, agreed. Right down to the economic problems.

Interesting! I thought that you, of all people, would try to see the whole picture, and your role in it.

(no judgement call: I just find it surprising)

Yes. All true.

But, a whaling company, GreenPeace, and the Army (ANY army) all provide a moral and spiritual framework, from which we operate. Yep, even a whaling company. They might not talk about the spiritual underpinnings of what they're doing, but it's easy to evaluate...

1. Whales and fish are commodities. As such, concern for their lives are secondary to profit. The spiritual directives of GreenPeace are diametrically opposed to this ideal, and so the two groups sometimes clash.

2. Fishing in the ocean is fishing in a commons, but capture of fish and whales is collecting property and resources, to be bought and sold.

Adding international laws to the mix also betrays the spiritual framework of governments and people involved in the whaling industry. NAFTA laws allowing Japanese whalers to side-step other nations' environmental protections reveals a world of spiritual focus about the concerns of those nations.

In short: the drive to profit is more important than the living requirements of small, or local, communities. And don't even get me started about Free Trade...

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Not at all, and no moral hierarchy or judgemnt is implied -- a "warrior" is some one who fights from his own motivation; a "soldier" is somone who fights because someone else motivates him. A warrior may disregard orders for his own reasons, sometimes that is necessary adpataion to the vagaries of battle and saves lives; somtimes it's a war atrocity.

A soldier is one under command; a warrior is a fighter, without regard to command.. As I said, the american forces are more of "warrior" force than a "soldier" force, but they are very much part of both.

I did not say we were NOT imperialist, I said we were POOR imperialists. I stand by that, and your examples tend to support my point, with Hawaii as the exception proving the rule .

Since the thread as Jun has said is about the spiritual issues surrounding military service, the warrior/soldier dichotomy necessarily comes into play.

A soldier follows orders; that is a definitional criterion. Orders do not excuse soldiers from moral responsibility, although they routinely try to argue the point. A warrior decides when he will, or will not, follow orders. He takes the consequences in both decisions, whether he follows or disobeys the order. But bad soldiers disobey orders too. That does not make them warrirors, thought they like to view it so.

That decision, for good or ill, is rich ground for spiritual thought in military service. The cult of honor is often the only guide, and never an explicit one.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Hi folks,

Last request before I move this thread to the Open Discussions forum.

Please remember that this forum is about aikido. Let's try to explicitly include that subject in your posts, please?

-- Jun

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Nuff said.

The attacker gets to decide how his attack will begin. Aiki is about choosing how the enemy's attack will end.

If a soldier merely slavishly follows orders he is controlling nothing, and in fact abdicating his choice to someone else. That is plainly not aiki. A warrior takes every order critically, and chooses how each such direction will end up, regardless of the intent of the one giving the order. That is aiki. Given an attack, the intended victim gets to shape the outcome. Given an order, the person executing it gets to shape the outcome.

Practice in Aikido gives one the ability to internalize this dynamic, and to deal with the issue more intuitively. If aikido practice has begun to internalize, one ought not be as conflicted in accepting the order as given, precisely becasue there are so many contingencies in its execution that may take the execution of that order is directions never intended or contemplated. If one is a warrior and not merely a soldier, how it turns out -- well ... , that depends on a lot of things -- just like good aikido randori.

I think the Bhagavad Gita had something along these lines, actually,

Ah well, nothing I write is truly original, anyway.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Jun could we possibly split this thread into another broader debate in the general forums?

In any case I'll do my best to tie this into Aikido.

The military is like Aikido in that unless you've actually done it then it's hard to get an accurate account on what it's like.

The soldier vs warrior question is a biggie in the military community.
A good friend of mine pointed out some thoughtful differences between the two. Some will argue that the warrior is what someone should strive for yet others (such as my friend) will point out "warriors" are easily defeated when faced against soldiers. Examples include Native American braves vs US cavalry. Samurai vs their Japanese soldier counter parts. Barbarians against roman soldiers. In most cases warriors with their singular codes of conduct (battle) and preferring to keep with tradition and "the old ways"will loose when faced against soldiers who arguably put mission first and are willing to adopt new tactics and technology. I'll see if I can dig up his argument on it.

Above my friends compelling argument against "warriors" I still try to see warriors in a good light. To me a warrior is someone who makes soldiering his life. Where a soldier will take time off work, relax and do whatever, a warrior will spend his off time training to be a better soldier. I feel many soldiers who practice Aikido bring with them a warrior mentality. (It's easy to offer help to a dying friend, it's something all together different to comfort a dying enemy).

I don't feel we (north America, the allies) have a warrior army per say. Watching the recruiting commercials and such I feel the powers that be are trying to push this army of one warrior stuff and convince anyone listening that that is what we are. In truth I think our military is full of professional soldiers some of whom ply their trade under a warriors mentality.

A warrior or fighter who doesn't follow orders would probably find himself without a job pretty quick.

A warrior, like an aikido student in my opinion, is someone without an ego. Who does not have to put on a show or posture themselves trying to convince people around them that they are tough. Someone willing to do what they think is right vice what everybody else is doing. A quiet professional.

In the military, especially due to conditioning, I think it's easy for young soldiers to get caught up int he close with and destroy the enemy, hooah kill em all but 6 mentality. Aggressive and competitive. It's a necessary evil when you consider what we are asking 18 year old people to do. Approaching anything military with the aikido way of peace is tricky. It's a challenge to practice aikido spiritually while not looking like a 'tree hugger' or distancing yourself from your peers who may still be at the blood makes the grass grow! stage.

I'm not sure if this is a good example but just this week I was talking to a soldier and the topic of his ex girlfriend came up.'

'God I hate her, if she was here right now I would blow her head off with a shot gun!' Obviously it was posturing and all talk but instead of agreeing with him and egging him on I gave him an alternative."

"You should be happy that you guys split up! Look at it this way dude, I'm sure you guys fought like cats and dogs, think about how crappy you felt int hat relationship. If you were still with her you'd probably be talking about putting that shotgun to your head instead"
I know my comment hit home, i could literaly feel him look at his situation from a completely different point of view, and he agreed with me. It was like he dropped a huge weight from his shoulders.

Applying the spirit of Aikido in the military is tricky but if done right, in my opinion, has some awesome results.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

From Wikipedia:

The posts by Mr. Mead mix warrior and warrior code up, confusingly. Aikido is nothing like this, although one thing is definite: in aikido, you cannot do what you like either, else you will not be going anywhere fast, except perhaps out the dojo LOL From my experience aikido everywhere takes on the aura of the senior teacher there - and I believe it is that teacher's severe responsibility to find out and discover what the founder of aikido meant with aikido, and its application in the world. That heavy and never-ending task should be the code of a seeker after the truth in aikido, and guide his or her actions, thoughts and words. If a person wants to do something else, that is fine too - many people split off from Aikikai and do their own thing with their followers, and this is a respectable thing to do.

FWIW
Gernot

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Neil,

What is the sprititual function of a screwdriver or hammer? It might have some fancy slogan on the side of it saying "tempered" or "quality guaranteed", or "always faithful". It describes the characteristics, and values that the company that built it hopes that it will endure and exude in the use of it.

When it comes down to it, it is simply a tool for turning screws or banging nails. It has a purpose, a very specific and narrow purpose.

Now, in the hands of the user, it might be used to build a church, it might be used to build a well in Africa, or serve any number of greater purposes, but it in itself has no purpose.

Soldiers and militaries are the same thing. Tools to serve a purpose. That is what I mean about not having a spiritual purpose. He mission of a miitary is not to serve for the spiritual needs and growth of people.

That said, soldiers are people and most modern armies recognize individualism and the need to appeal to a "higher purpose" in order to maintain good order and discipline and focus on mission.

We have values, ethics, and codes, but in the end the goal is to serve the state that we represent and have sworn allegiance to.

The state and the people it represents may have a "higher calling" or may be fighting for religious reasons, etc, but that is the purpose of the state, and not the military.

Re: Aikido, the military and fighting
 

Erick Meade wrote:

IF only it were this simple Erick! :)

Most major orders given to commanders are along the lines of "secure a foothold at the bridge", or "establish command and control in the town". It is not "kill 100 people" or "make sure everyone is dead".

Most modern militarys focus on endstates and objectives, not individual task when issuing orders. We don't typically measure success by a body count or an individual task. This allows for a great deal of latitude in how you as a commander or soldier interprets those orders. So, each soldier or subordinate command has the flexibility and choice to decide how he/she wants to proceed to accomplish that task.

I don't see much difference in aikido. Sometimes we have the choice, given the luxury of time, skill, speed, etc, to make a choice that benefits both uke and nage. Sometimes we are suprised, overwhelmed, or outskilled by uke, and we must react, speed up, use more force than we might use in another situation.

To me being aiki does not always require that you have the ability to shape the outcome, you may not always be able to. I can think of the thousands of times in the dojo where I failed to correctly or appropriately deal with uke! What is important is to do it when we can, or to be of such character that we show compassion as best we can always considering how our actions will effect things once all is said or done.