Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

In 1967 Tadashi Abe was criticism the Aikikai for the way of the teaching. I had lost its roots and became effeminate.
In 1969 Kenji Tomiki gave a interview to Black Belt Magazine and was criticism Aikikai and he said "Aikikai lost many of the practical advantages that jujutsu possessed"
It is rather uncommon to criticism your teacher, and in the case of Tadashi Abe, quite rude. And in that time Morihei Ueshiba was still alive.
Maybe some of you have similar facts about students of Morihei Ueshiba?
When I started aikido more than 40yrs ago, Ueshiba was put forward as a kind of superman/god. And such a criticism was a capital sin. With the years the image of Morihei Ueshiba changed from superman to a normal person with very big martial capabilities.

Eddy Wolput
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/...+Tomiki+Aikido

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Eddy, I sometimes wonder whether Proff Ueshiba has been too pedestalled and now the truth is gradually coming out? I've no doubt that he possessed great skills as did his uchideshi in their own ways, some better than others, some not so...? Being biased if you like, I also felt that Tomiki Shihan was being rational, more than most and was not into inflating other peoples abilities but experiencing something fascinating as well as "normal" in his eyes, but hard to understand until he got "it" ?
I think we all have that quest with in us to try and find out by real experience rather than going through the "motions" so to speak. Maybe that's the problem today with many thinking there is some "mystical" power? I've a rational hunch it isn't so, but rather precise knowledge and practise in what at first seemed impossible, like the first minute mile by athlete Roger Bannister....? You tell me....:)

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Yes agreed.

We tend to be in awe of things we have never seen before and are unaware of. Its magic or the act of Gods.

With further study, knowledge, and insight, they are the acts of very skilled humans.

Perhaps its a cultural thing to not criticize or to openly criticize.

Yet, IMHO, if we are not opened to being questioned then we already fear the answer.

Thoughts?

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Eddy

In the 1950s I don't believe that we looked on OSensei as a superman / god - I would say he was certainly revered...I would add that of all the early Japanese Budo masters that I met in the 1950/60s none were more more loyal to OSensei than Tadashi Abe Sensei - I remember when he went back to Japan....he visited the Hombu Dojo - he was shocked at what he saw being practiced in the name of Aikido, he apologised to all the ladies in the dojo, stating that the Aikido he was seeing was Aikido for women.

Tadashi Abe must have felt very strongly over what he considered conveyor belt Aikido, he threw his diploma's on the mat and stormed out....

Without criticism many men have become gods and dictators who act like gods...OSensei was admired and respected by Tadashi Abe - Kenshiro Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - TK Chiba, all these teachers referred to him as an exceptional man.

Henry Ellis
Tadashi Abe
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

It sounds to me like Henry Ellis put it, he was separating in his mind the Aikikai and his teacher, Ueshiba sensei. In his position, I think it certainly would be important to criticize the aikikai as he did, if he did not feel it was doing correct aikido.

I think this is an interesting point. If O-sensei really wanted to produce masters of jujutsu, he would have easily made it so. His teacher was one, and as I understand, he was quite "effective" too. But I think part of his vision may have been:
Without being an expert in how to fight, dominate, or destroy, one can still be free from harm by doing aiki.

If he believed in this way, then that could help explain why he didn't insist on making others into jujutsu technicians. If those in the aikikai didn't understand what he did want, then they might think that the lack of emphasis on jujutsu technique meant that Ueshiba wanted soft, flowy movements.

So in different ways, Abe and the aikikai may both have been partially "right."

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Yehaaaay!!:D

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

I don't buy that, when you see what the Iwama style is like, Nothing jujutsu like there ....?

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Hi Lynn -

There's a difference between questioning and criticizing.

Questioning can be used to enhance the knowledge of both questioner and questioned alike and so performs the role of an evolutionary catalyst in the advancement of the body of knowledge regarding the subject at hand. Honest questioning of a teacher by a student is an indication that both teacher and student are doing their jobs. Questioning is a mechanism for eliciting information.

Criticism stops discussion in its tracks. Critic and and criticized become wedded to their positions and any hope of meaningful discussion is lost as participants dig in their heels in support of their positions. The critic enters the discussion with conclusions already formulated and is primarily interested in scoring points. The one being criticized is immediately put on the defensive. Thus the lines are drawn and trench warfare usually ensues and nothing gets resolved.

Best,

Ron

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Dear Jonathan,
It is difficult to ascertain what the students of O Sensei may or may not have wanted aikido to be after O Sensei passed away.
From my own experience I can certainly state that in my training under a well known Shihan the movements and execution of waza exhibited were anything but soft. Flowing yes, powerful yes, martial yes-soft absolutely no.
Cheers, Joe.

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Hi Joe and Tony-
Tony, if I understand you right, I think you are saying there is heavy amounts of jujutsu in Ueshiba's teachings, based on Iwama curriculum. I came from Iwama background, so I know a bit of what they do. And I know what they don't normally do-- that only took meeting a couple of folks who are good with jujutsu.

Iwama aikido consists of waza that are supposed to have continuous aiki, plus a couple joint locks thrown in.
That is very different from having LOTS of jujutsu skill.

Even just compare this Takumakai vid with aikido-- similar roots for sure. And we don't need to discuss how "good" the guys in this vid are. My point is only: if you are like Hisa Takuma, wanting to do jujutsu with aiki, you can do a lot more to someone than we do in aikido.

Anyway, my whole point was regarding what Tadashi Abe said, and why he might have said it (and see above, it was apparently in regard to Hombu not Iwama anyway). I thought maybe he was saying "you guys are being wimpy" because people were practicing flowing movements instead of kicking a$$. I am saying, he is right that they weren't being tough as can be. And maybe that was on purpose. Do I think those deshi are good, and tough guys, yes they could beat me up, but I am not Tadashi Abe!

And Joe, I hope this explains what I meant better. Basically:
-what did Abe mean
-was he correct in saying that
-and even if he was, does that mean only his way was the right way?

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Don't you do work like this from time to time in your dojo?
I recognize a lot of things we practice sometimes.
Not as "part of the curriculum" but as "possibilities" or "application" or just for better understanding.

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

In the early 60ties the influence of Tadashi Abe and also Aritoshi Murashige was very strong in aikido circles in Belgium. That kind of aikido is (or was) just straight to the point and very different from mainstream Aikikai aikido these days.
In case of Tomiki, he put forward in that article : The Aikikai did a mistake by dropping such key training methods as randori (from jujutsu).
"This is the Hombu's greatest mistake because free practice permits you to prepare yourself for any eventuality, every possible move an attacker might make"
This is not a discussion about "is aikido strong selfdefense?", but it is a search for people who spoke with a load critical voice about the direction of training in Aikikai when Morihei Ueshiba was still the living example of the "institute Aikikai"
In the 1976 when I was practising in Shizuoka at Korindo dojo, it was totally different from the training at the Hombu in Tokyo. At the Korindo in Shizuoka I had the chance to practice with high level instructors and this was really training. In the Hombu, I tried to practice with high level people, and some man, he became a famous shihan later, said to me "it is too hot to practice" and went to the side and stopped training. This never happened in Shizuoka.
I can understand the critisism of Abe and Tomiki, they only saw some kind of a "martial dance" which lacked the seriousness of the martial art Aikido.

Eddy

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Hi Joe

After the incident at the Hombu dojo it is my understanding that Tadashi Abe never ever went back. I had told Chiba Sensei that Abe Sensei was a teacher we had all admired, Chiba Sensei replied " Tadashi Abe Sensei has always been my hero " .

When people ask about the Aikido of OSensei - all that is left from that era is what we have from the treasures that were direct students of OSensei - The ones I trained with were all excellent - powerful and hard , yet, their Aikido was different, just as they themselves were.
I speak of K Abbe - T Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - H Ichumura - N Tamura - TK Chiba - H Tada - their signatures were different but the message was the same..

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Dear Henry,
Yes indeed-these men are /were true Budo masters.
Cheers, Joe

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

It was too hot to practice? Now that says something does it not? I motor better when I'm hot, If I don't work up a really good sweat, I feel I have not done enough.... I think I know when I'm exhausted my muscles tremble and go all weak till recovery, but what a buzz....
All the body aches and pains go away for a few hours at least, then it all comes back.... seize up and then you have to move again to get the oil moving round..... do that thousands of times and one gets used to it, unless you stop....... fatal..:dead:

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

I guess that if you practice each and every day, you can choose, if you like, whether or not 'today' is too hot and to sit out, but, frankly, I don't work that way. If you show up to the training venue, TRAIN.

Maybe not as long as normal, maybe not as hard as normal, but do it for crying in the mud... If, as you say, only to get a sweat going and to loosen up all the corrosion that sets in if you don't keep active.

I speak as someone who currently is starting to seize up from lack of Aikido practices in the last few months. The sessions take place when I'm at work...

On an interesting note - I met the sensei in the local dojo yesterday - he's a school teacher at the collegiate where I was giving an all-day rowing clinic - I'd heard the name but wasn't in Aikido mind and suddenly - hey, wait... aren't you the Aikido sensei? The :ai: :ki: :do: on his sleeve for the p.e. class he was giving helped clue me in...
W

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

The quote from the Black Belt Magazine is somewhat out of context, here is the link to the original article:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ls4...page&q&f=false

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Both, Abe and Tomiki are questioning the training system at the Aikikai in that time, each from their point of view.Both they noticed a lack of "something".
This is a debate also about what some people from other martial arts think about contemporary aikido. It is not my intention to open again this debate in this thread.
I am just curious if other old students of Morihei Ueshiba also have such a critisism. Those old students were well respected in the world of martial arts and some of them created their own system.
Why?

Eddy

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

David

I took a look at the Black Belt link, seeing the photo of Tatsuo Suzuki Sensei on the front cover brought back memories, he had recently arrived in London. this reminded me of a demonstration I did at the BJC National Judo Championships at Crystal Palace London early 1960s.. I had been asked by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei to do the Aikido demonstration, as usual we never planned anything ( I could never remember set stuff ) and took the demo `` as it comes `` It got nasty and it was a tough one with blood and snot to add a little colour.....just the way we liked it :straightf

As we walked to the edge of the mat, my assistant Derek Eastman whispered out loud - " look out Sensei, Suzuki Sensei looks angry and is storming over here " - he looked angry as he stepped right in front of me preventing me stepping off the mat, I thought " Oh sh!t , we have overdone it this time " ---- His facial expression did not change as he said "" Mr Ellis , thank you, that is the best demonstartion of Aikido I have ever seen " - he then turned and walked away..........He must have said the same to Abbe Sensei because Abbe Sensei smiled and nodded his approval...........just memories.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

I think Henry has answered that one in one honest post....

I have always felt the same way as Tomiki Sensei and many of his students, that aikido is not just for health, it is self defence primarily in my book and will stay THAT WAY until I die..... What ever happens after that will not concern me, but I fear the worst.....:straightf

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

This might be relevant

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Recently I discovered a movie of Senta Yamada about 20 minutes, filmed late fifties somewhere in Japan. Senta Yamada was a judoka but also an experienced aikido teacher. He was a student of Kenji Tomiki and Morihei Ueshiba. He traveled a lot with Ueshiba and was for a period an uchideshi.The movie showed many aikidotechniques and if you compare them with people of about the same age like Tadashi Abe, or if we compare it with the movie Judo taiso of Kenji Tomiki, we only can say this is the same aikido and the origin is with Morihei ueshiba. If we compare the movie of Tomiki and Yamada with the prewar movie of Ueshiba or with the books Budo and Budo Renshu, we only can say this is almost the same. Somewhere in the late fifties and sixties, mainstream aikido changed a lot, and only a few groups kept the old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba.

Eddy

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Could you post a link to that video?

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

So, in your interpretation, who exactly are these few groups and what exactly are these old teachings? And what makes them so distinct from what everybody else (supposedly) does?

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Yamada's movie is in a dvd produced by Hal Sharp, judoka, and the main title of the DVD is Fukko Judo by Tadayuki Satoh. Someone gaave me the DVD, I don't know where to buy.

In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........

Maybe others can add more

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Aikido didn't exist, pre-war, did it...?

As for the criticisms of the Aikikai, aren't the sources very important? - i.e., I have heard Chiba sensei - a man most respected by at least a few contributors here - once remarked that Tomiki sensei 'Missed the point' of aikido; and I think I recall anecdotes about Tadashi Abe which I read here, talking about him lamenting his missed opportunity to be a suicide bomber during WWII; carrying a knife with him - to give to other people when he got in a fight; and being expelled from France because he kept starting fights.

If that's pre-war aikido, I can't wait 'til it's well and truly dead.

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Henry Ellis wrote :
After the incident at the Hombu dojo it is my understanding that Tadashi Abe never ever went back. I had told Chiba Sensei that Abe Sensei was a teacher we had all admired, Chiba Sensei replied " Tadashi Abe Sensei has always been my hero " .

And about Tomiki Sensei, he was a shihan at the Aikikai in the fifties, Chiba started aikido in 1958 after Tomiki Sensei formulated his aiki randori method which was not well accepted by the Aikikai. Chiba can have critisim on the randori method but saying he missed the point...... what point?

And Aikido started after the war and nothing before??

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

OSensei named his martial art Aikido in 1942 if I recall ?
He named it - he didn't find it in a cupboard.......he had been developing the art for many years...

Tadashi Abe left France to deal with an urgent / serious problem involving his family business.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

"I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. “Aikido,” rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to “Butokukai-Ryu” aiki budo within the Dai Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Dai Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.
...
In other words, the term “aikido” was a cover-all term that could include other things as well. Mr. Hisatomi’s idea was to intentionally select a name that would not be opposed by kendo or other martial arts, but rather an inoffensive, comprehensive term to group together all of the yawara schools. In the end, no one opposed this proposal."

Minoru Hirai in http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87

Bold mine

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

So we can say that the word "aikido" can encompass all martial arts....? sounds good to me....

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Some would say that the majority of present day aikido is already dead......:rolleyes:

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

And some would say Aikido is alive and well!

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

As dance yes......

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

And what did Yoshimitsu Minamoto base Daito-ryu on?

Best,

Chris

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Haha. As someone with even a cursory understanding of the history of aikido would know...
I was going to mention this, too. :)

As much as some aikido might have neglected martial intent for connection/softness, I think that is the heart of aikido, and makes aiki possible, and I think too many 'martial' people - including some present here - have no idea what aiki is, as they don't know what it is to be soft/not tense.

How can you be in harmony/yield when you have such an ego, and discord between yourself and others...?

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Really? I remember this concept being questioned by Ellis Amdur in Hidden in Plain Sight.

Here is an article on Aikidojournal that is in the same light - http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2702

As Ellis states in the article:

Emphasis above is mine.

Imho the Yoshimitsu Minamoto dance Aiki link is an interesting concept but where is the evidence to support it. Sometimes History is really just His Story :)

Regardless of whether Yoshimitsu Minamoto had an effect on what became S. Takeda's Daito Ryu, the evidence states that what Takeda did and taught as DRJJ was designed for combat or fighting. This is what Ueshiba M. learnt from him as well and is what he did up to the 1930's.

What happened later as "Aikido" is another story.

Just some thoughts.

LC

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Funny you say that Graham.

From my experience, those who really know Aiki and can execute it do not exhibit the ego and discord that you are referring to. There is also no loss of connection or softness where needed.

So the question may be "what are you referring to as Aiki"? I was lucky to be part of some recent research that pretty much concludes that no more than a handful (meaning 5 or so) of Ueshiba M.'s earliest students were even taught anything about Aiki by him, and by the postwar period he simply did not teach it openly anymore, you had to steal it.

In Daito Ryu and by extension Ueshiba's Aikibudo and early Aikido, Aiki is considered a tactical combative concept embodied in the techniques. This existed long before the re-codification of the concept to match the popular post-WWII "Art of Love" slogan imho.

Just a few thoughts.

LC

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Sure, I read the book, I'm even cited in the acknowledgements, although I'm not sure why...

I wonder if Morihei Ueshiba would denigrate dance - he taught many dancers, some of them quite well known.

Anyway, I think that you might be surprised how much faster dancers often pick up Aiki.

Best,

Chris

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Well I don't think anyone here is denigrating dance Chris. I'm merely questioning the real facts behind the popular story.

I agree with you that dancers pick up Aiki faster. But imho this has more to do with the individual's coordination and understanding of how their mind and body operates so it does not only apply to dancers but gymnasts, judoka, ppl who do yoga and anyone who does a lot of choreography from my experience.

Just some thoughts.

LC

Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism
 

Oh, I wasn't talking about you ;) . Anyway, myth or not, AFAIK Ueshiba believed the story.

Best,

Chris