Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

I don't know this sensei, but this is a video I had seen close to 5-8 years ago. Back then it scifi to me, now out is like "dang that is aikido, he did not give any secret there".
painless nikkyo
However, at the same time it comes to me that yes it a painless nikkyo, but because he leaves uke free to run away. At the end of his nikkyo the connection disappears. So it is painless because uke is a good uke. If uke was someone really trying to cut nage's head off, would that nikkyo still be painless to be effective?

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

As you said, the ability to use the technique in the painless manner de-emphasizing the lock that you described requires a cooperative / performing-roles type of ukemi. From a mechanical perspective, all three elements we've discussed -- the lock, the grab of the other wrist, and the step -- can be used in various proportions to achieve kuzushi and the desired result: uke falls.

Emphasizing the step and not relying on the mechanical advantage of the lock, to me, makes this an irimi-nage of sorts moreso than a nikkyo/nikkajo. In Hakkoryu we don't use these terms to describe this type of lock, but ultimately, taking into account the various opinions from aikido folks in this thread, a high-level practitioner should be able to execute the techniques along the same continuum as aikido: with excruciating pain (pain is expressly sought, for example, in the shodan-ge and nidan-ge that introduce variations of the technique and aspects thereof), no pain, or whatever's required in between to get the job done. That said, since the technique is introduced in suwari-waza (an example of which is in the photo in my previous post), stepping in would not be considered a prerequisite for executing the technique in any manner, pain notwithstanding.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Watching that clip again, I noticed something interesting. This way of delivering nikyo is very similar to the way I am used to doing it. Anyway, if you look at the moment when the pin goes on, you can see that there is a moment where uke's arm briefly starts to buckle, before the rest of his body starts to move. I think that it is this "wave" of buckling that causes the pain in the wrist. Personally I try to avoid this kind of delay in application - my ideal is where uke's body is locked almost immediately, and you have a direct control over your partner's structure through the arm and shoulder skeletal system.

Alex

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

I want to put a big asterix next to all my recent posts. Today we had some free time after practice, so I revisited nikajo with Crampton-sensei and the other kenshusei. I think maybe what I've been doing is effective from training with the same people over and over. Crampton-sensei showed how what I'm doing is dependant on uke not escaping with flaccidity. Of course, by actually focusing on the wrist, you can keep uke from escaping with flaccidity. It's hard for me to assess because--as I intimated before--I think the technique relies on maai and using the knees and back correctly rather than the hands, and today my knees, hips, and lower back were having a rough time.

Anyhow, when the Kenshusei course is over in a few weeks, I will make a long post trying to explain how to do the painless variant as I understand it. Right now, I am think Mert's comments make a lot of sense, however.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

You made my day :D

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

many many many moons ago, when i first met Howard Popkin, he was all smile and then we did same hand grab. he put the softess and smoothess nikyo on me (i have not felt from anyone since). my whole body structure was locked. my balance was broken. no pain involved. the freakest thing was i couldn't let go. he didn't even use his other hand to hold my wrist. just one hand and i couldn't let go. tried as i may, opening all my fingers, i couldn't let go. freaked me out. it was one of those WTF moment. it wasn't just me. he went down the line and got everyone. then we did the two hand grab, he put on a double nikkyo and both of my arms, got me shot forward on my toes, weight back, body crunch, locked up tight, and watch this coming.... no pain of any kind. then he said, while all smiling, "you know if i drop my arms your head would whip forward and down, then at the same time i raise my knee. mister head would meet mister knee." ok, for gentle reader, at this time, i was frantically trying to let go and get away. no dice. no can't go anywhere. lucky for him that he was a nice guy and let me out of the locks; otherwise, i would have hurt his knee. many years later, i paid him back by introducing some capsicin oilnment to his knee. :D

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

One of the things I remember most vividly from seeing Yamaguchi Sensei back in the 1980s was the way he could do nikyo on you from katadori without using his hands. He did a little jiggle at the start, and then you felt completely under his control. There was no possibility of letting go, and your body was totally locked, even though the only physical connection between you and him was through the back of your hand tucked in the niche in his shoulder.

Alex

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of my nikkyo if I really, really meant it. No doubt about that.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

So, while I think it's great that people have these amazingly powerful nikkyos - it would be even better if people were dissecting (in my opinion) what were the body mechanics that enabled these things. Were they taking advantage of your "joining" with them? Were they exploiting holes in your structure? Were they taking your balance in such a way that you couldn't escape? Do you know how to do what they were doing now? If not, why not?? I'm not looking for buzzwords, hero worship or "my sensei's nikkyo can beat up your sensei's nikkyo" - how's it work?

For example - something I can do. I can lock up your structure with a nikkyo just using my structure (through the standard grip), but if I show you the trick of how to receive my structure with your structure, then it won't work the same way. But if I add additional jin vectors to the equation, it does work, until I show you how those work and how to receive them. Then if I add dantien driven work to the nikkyo, I can lock you up again and so on and so on. There's layers of sophistication that you can apply which make the technique such a good study (beyond wrist lock), but the "how's it work" bit should be paramount otherwise we're just admiring (or denigrating) each others' nikkyos.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Hi Mert sorry for the delay in response. The picture you posted is exactly what I described. What I meant to describe was something different. But what you posted was better suited to the discussion at hand so I shut up for a bit (as my familiars will tell you that is not an easy thing to do, which was some profound ki extension on your part).

What you posted we don't really train as a formal technique, but I find myself reflexively going to this on occasion. Particularly if a same side technique is going south on me, I can often give a little whip of the arm while stepping and click into the right alignment to destabilize uke. If the lock is solid take them down, if it is transitory I enjoy the kuzushi and use the opportunity enter into another technique. I use a soft palm rather than the edge of my hand, but I think potato potahto applies here.

What I failed to explain in my original post, is nage's hand wraps the forearm from the inside in a vertical nikyo/sankyo hybrid (twisting the arm/qua open rather than closed) it still locks the elbow and shoulder and ends in a sumi otoshi-esque throw. Again, upon reflection, many would argue this is not even remotely related to nikyo due to the opposite direction of rotation (probably has it's own name), but I see some common principles; then again that is just my take. Your photo was more applicable to the discussion at hand.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Hilary,

Thank you for clarifying! It would be interesting to see what the lock you intended to describe looks like, even if you can't exactly replicate the effect (at least at this time).

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Thanks for referring to my ancient video. In a way you are right, the nikkyo is painless because uke is a good uke - not a collusive uke, but an uke that is maintaining his attack to the central core. A committed attack is all that is necessary. At a recent seminar given by a direct student of Osensei I attended, the shihan in no uncertain terms recommended trapping fingers as the attacker could let go and re-attack, but I have found that the only reason for uke to let go in the heat of the moment is if his automatic defense system is triggered by nikyo applied as an attack. If for any other reason (he didn't really grab, he was just using the palm of his hand to push keep your appendage out of the way) ki no nagare connection to the attacker's center provides a self correcting point of connection - in other words it means some other resolution will appear rather than the thing we call nikyo - here is a clip addressing that very thing shot a couple of days ago.

http://youtu.be/25ZV3yhB_jY

Here is an earlier vid from a couple of years ago of one of my students initially regretting he'd never learned how to apply a painful nikyo: http://youtu.be/bVTeiifBbDU

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

If you are doing the technique all the way correctly, you can cause the structural collapse of uke without much, if any, pain at the wrist. If your technique is not quite "dead solid perfect" to use a golf reference, it can still be "effective" though it's more a pain-compliance thing, with the drawbacks therefrom.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

The better my ukemi gets, the less nikyo hurts me.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

I am sure this didn't hurt a bit!

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

i can appreciate a carefully applied little twinge and a slightly delayed burn.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Still it's important not to go down before nage gets a chance to fully apply the technique, as that will limit his ability to learn.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

I've had Nikkyo applied to me hard enough to make me lose vision briefly...didn't hurt though.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Hi,Adam,
Did your glasses fall off or your contact lenses fall out during the nikkyo? Cheers, Joe

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

No, I don't wear either. My body just moved from standing to crunched up ball quicker than my equilibrium could keep up. Not all that uncommon in drop throws, really.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

just remembered having experienced temporary numbness/paralysis of hand(s) during some of those long nikyo sessions.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Adam,
Just having a little jest when I made my earlier remarks.I am sure you sussed that out.Cheers, Joe.

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

Sorry, that's nage's problem. My first job as uke is to protect myself, and I'm not letting someone twice my size crank on my wrists until he convinces himself that he's got it right. I'll let the big guys play that game with each other.

Katherine

Re: does nikyo hurt?
 

I understand that all of you practice nikyo in such a way that uke can decide to "leave" the contact by "going down"? Is this acutally possible for uke in your way of doing nikyo if tori does not want to let him go?