Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
I've encountered bad aikido in many places, including some rather well-known instructors. I've encountered good aikido in many places, including some very obscure instructors.
These days, I mostly pay attention to a dojo's students and recommendations from people I trust, not the name on the door. I will say, however, that I've seen just as many dismissive statements about Aikikai from Tohei-derived styles as vice versa, but have seen no evidence that either side of the divide produces better students. Katherine |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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Own your practice and either defend it, and explain its worth, or stop asking us for our opinions and then telling us we don't get it. Here we go again being asked to judge videos and practices, and people tell us we do not understand. I think these discussions are too often disingenuous. Why put up video, ask why we dismiss the practice, talk to people who have met and trained with Ki society people and tested them and then, like a certain person here, go on to routinely tell us - we- don't understand. I mean it's getting to be like clockwork. When I first saw this I said to myself..really...seriously...again? Tohei set an example of testing himself against judo players and other detractors who were trying to stop him. Apparently he put his ideas and his ass on the line. It seems that being a follower of that type of boldness, is just too much for many people. Tohei had some power, but overall the styles teachers and members have certainly received quite a bit of bad reviews over the years haven't they? How come Tohei didn't? I'd bet it's because he could actually deliver and many in the art cannot. Is there something to be learned there? The question is, where are the ki society people going out to judo and MMA dojo to test with people who want to see them undone? Since there is so much criticism that comes your way maybe it has some justification? I see no consideration, care or concern that it is perhaps the ki people who are truly the ones who do not understand what ki is capable of after all. Maybe there is nothing wrong with Tohei's model...just the modern players lack of real understanding. Perhaps you should consider that it is you who are being presumptuous, and really don't understand what ki and aiki is truly capable of. While I remain a great fan of ki and aiki. I have seen too many videos of ki society people showing a profound lack of skill and understanding. Sadly, since I am on any other day a fan of the topic, I remain as unimpressed as everyone else who doesn't even believe in ki or aiki at all. From what I have seen, it is apparently because they do not really understand ki or aiki. And I know they would be delighted to move forward in their practice if they did. I have asked any number or ki people if I could test them...except for Greg Steckel, all have refused. That certainly doesn't say much. Mark Patrick trains with me. You are certainly welcome to come and train with us. Then we can have a discussion about who shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the test being performed and what ki can or cannot do. I think you will find we share a mutual interest in the subject itself, just not how one goes about achieving soft power in a more profound way that actually does work against full resistance. This, is simply not it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VGH--Z6RVc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM I have no comment on the ribbons other than to say stop blaming your critics when you put this stuff out here. Good grief, at least own your practice and either stop asking questions or at least deal with the criticism in a more professional manner than to say your critics don't understand. At the very least, if many of you are not as you continually say, doing a martial practice, then remove the keikogis and the fake attacks and make it a Yoga type movement. Most of the stuff that keeps being offered for us to view, certainly has no business being called a martial art. just say'n Dan |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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Go invite some average people in (who are not trained fighters) to attack your teacher. Then invite in some decent fighters and ask them them to tune your teacher. Then answer your own question and stay or leave. In case you don't already know this, most martial artists suck. They can neither fight well, or handle physical stresses well. Many of the "famous" teachers we follow were nothing more than budo wallpaper...also rans in their day. So, it is no surprise that those who followed them are nothing more than highly ranked wallpaper themselves. I suspect it's always been that way. Dan |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
When I think of Ki-aikido I have the image of Yoshigasaki doshu, who can be seen in the first video Dan posted.
This is what Ki-aikido looks like here in Germany and I attended one class of this form of aikido. My impression is that it is fundamentally different from what I know as aikido. No reason to hate it or have negative emotions about it at all. Just stating it's different. |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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In principle I agree wholeheartedly with what you say, however things are never as black and white as you suggest. For a truth to really hold firm it has to reflect both sides of the coin. Respectfully Keith |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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I do own my practice with all it's qualities and faults. There is nothing to defend. I was not asking for opinions. I was responding to Patrick's offhand comment about his kids being able to push harder than what was being seen in the video. Which to me sounded a bit like those who see a Jackson Pollock painting and say "my kids could do better than that". Quote:
If you know you understand something, and from having met you, I know that you do, why worry about those who think you don't? just sayin;) Quote:
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My own teacher had the full on martial training, on offer in the 50's and 60's, that seems to have been relegated to history now. After training with Tohei for about 10/11 years, he uses all the exercises and terminology he learned from him, as he felt that this was a better method than the 'demonstrate and let them get on with it' approach, that was a more cultural norm. Why can't we wear the kit when we practice? what does it matter to others, if we do? Personally, I like the fact that aikido can be practiced by kids and adults, young and old. I like the fact that Ueshiba said that aikido is for everyone. I like the fact that it can be used as a tool for personal development and I like the fact that it can be effective as a means of self defence. I also like the fact that that there are guys like you out there, challenging us to keep it real:) See you soon hopefully regards, Mark |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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"Can't fight well." Since when was budo training about producing "fighters"? Anyone with a brain can see that there are better methods if you want to kick other people's asses. The Japanese and Chinese worked out that training just for ass kicking is juvenile years ago. "budo" doesn't even mean "martial art"! "Can't handle physical stresses well?" There was a huge earthquake and tsunami in Japan a few moths ago. Thousands died. Hundreds of thousands have been left destitute in unimaginably harsh conditions. I'd say that would cause some physical stress. Exactly the sort of "budo" training that you dismiss as producing "sucky martial artists" have helped many of them to cope with difficulty most of us will never experience, (please God). One thing that Budo training should inculculate is some tact and respect for other people. Really. |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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If asked directly there was a simple way to find out. What does measuring the effectiveness of a martial artist have to do with disrespecting them? They either are, or they are not. If they do not do their martial arts as martial arts, but rather for fun, than fine. Why ask a question about effectiveness then? I think too many people want credit for it all, and they have not put in the time or the testing and suffering to get it...but they want to claim equal footing for something clearly not earned. That is the king of disrespect. I have many friends in budo who could care less about fighting or fighting ability (maybe even the majority). There is nothing wrong with that. I continually argue that we should not judge people in budo who are having fun...until and unless they claim ( or worse, teach) something they simply cannot do or know. Dan |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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I don't mind, but while I was on point, you and your tone, pretty much defeats your own position. I would also point out that contrary to many detractors; I publicly and privately support the founding of the ki aikido movement and the very real skills of Tohei, if not the mess we have made out of it and most other Asian arts. The lack of real skill in Ki and aiki in so many modern adepts is the cause and reason for the questions in thread in the first place, is it not? If on the other hand you want me to applaud all efforts as equal and give everyone an "A," than yes, you are talking to the wrong guy. Hopefully that will change Dan |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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I think you're overstating your case, Mark. Yes, O-Sensei trained Daito-Ryu, taught Daito-Ryu, and handed out rank in Daito-Ryu before the war. But I think the history is clear that he did more than add a spiritual ideology to DR. He personally came to a split with his teacher that seems to have been more than just personal; he came to a point where he started to look for another name than "Daito-Ryu" to describe what he did; and those who saw what he did saw something other than Daito-Ryu in it. He may not have come up with the name "Aikido" himself, but he seems to have been clear that a new name was needed--he was calling what he did "Takemusu Aiki" before others suggested "Aikido" to him. And he clearly made choices in what he presented and how he presented it, as much in what he left out as in how he refined what he kept. |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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a) what he chose to present b) what he left out? And the unstated.... c) what remained? |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
Dan, I can think of few surer ways of making a fool of myself than by trying to explain the differences between Aikido and Daito-Ryu to you.
I should stop there, but since my momma apparently did raise at least one fool... Just based on the video record and trying to eliminate my preconceptions, I'd say that O-Sensei clearly had little interest in techniques that locked uke up, pinned him, or put him in a complicated submission. Where he does use joint locks he immediately turns it into a projection. Where he uses pins, they're simple. He seems to care most about dealing with the initial attack in a way that doesn't interfere with uke's momentum, either of one limb or of the whole body, and then getting uke out of his space so he stays free to operate. Even when he's bouncing uke off himself he gets uke away rather than going for a submission. Flip side, I believe all those elements are part of Daito-Ryu. So, I infer that O-Sensei didn't want them. And from that, I infer that he thought they weren't useful to what he was trying to teach. Partly, I'm sure that has to do with adapting sword forms and to the martial situation of multiple attackers. But I don't think that's the whole story. |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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Don't take it personal, but I'm going to ask you to support some things. First, you said, "He personally came to a split with his teacher that seems to have been more than just personal". So, is there anything out there that supports that? His split was more than just personal, I mean. John Driscoll does an excellent job of correlating Daito ryu and aikido techniques here on Aikiweb. The end result is a very high percentage. Mochizuki laments the fact that Ueshiba pared down the Daito ryu syllabus ... not that he changed it. Then we have interviews that state Kisshomaru and Tohei changed the syllabus. So, we have to look at what Morihei Ueshiba was actually doing and *not* what Modern Aikido is doing. An older Ueshiba on video still does stock Daito ryu techniques. He still uses atemi to incapacitate an attacker (just watch some of his videos where he uses an atemi motion to simulate a strike to a downed uke's elbow). Kodo and Sagawa did very similar demonstrations as Ueshiba. Kodo is on tape doing the push test from a seated position. Ueshiba carried a fan just like Takeda. Where in Modern Aikido does this happen? Then there's the issue with the money. IMO, what Ueshiba changed in Daito ryu techniques was that he opted for another choice. One in which he opted to spiral the attacker outward into safety rather than the Daito ryu conviction of maim/kill. And even that change is suspect because an older Takeda is quoted as stating that his vision of Daito ryu was self defense. Was Ueshiba just taking a natural progression that Takeda had already found? Or did Takeda take a different path because he had seen what Ueshiba had done? You said, "he came to a point where he started to look for another name than "Daito-Ryu" to describe what he did". Yes. When? After his split with Takeda. Until then, even up to the opening of the Kobukan dojo, he was still a Daito ryu man. As Sagawa stated, there is a time when the student branches out to do different things than the teacher. Ueshiba followed that progression from a spiritual perspective. Sagawa kept the name, Daito ryu. Yet, both said what they were doing was different than what Takeda had done. But both were Daito ryu aiki men. So was Kodo. So, what other reason was there to look for a different name and what research out there supports that? You said, "And he clearly made choices in what he presented and how he presented it, as much in what he left out as in how he refined what he kept". Yes, Ueshiba did. However, aiki was the foundation for his spirituality. Take a look at Seiseki Abe as an example. Around 1952, Seiseki Abe says this about his initial meeting with Ueshiba: "How did you ever learn such a wonderful budo", and he answered, "Through misogi." Now I had been doing misogi since 1941 and when I heard that Aikido came from misogi, suddenly "snap", the two came together. Seiseki Abe had been doing misogi for at least 10 years before ever starting aikido and wasn't at all near Ueshiba's skills or abilities, nor did he even see misogi and aikido as being similar. However, under Ueshiba's tutelage, Seiseki Abe continued to grow as a martial artist. We can see from this that something that Ueshiba knew and had trained was the underlying basis for powering his misogi exercises. Other people who did not have that certain something did not grow to replicate Ueshiba's abilities. Are there other Oomoto kyo, other misogi-type people, other zen adepts that have done what Ueshiba, Sagawa, or Kodo have done? Where are they? Why did those three consider themselves peers even though they were doing different techniques? Daito ryu aiki men through and through. Ueshiba just took the road less traveled compared to his peers. Mark |
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You are making one hell of a presumptive leap to assume you know my thoughts on the scope of budo-to include the entire history of budo- based on some discussion of the well known sad state of affairs with ki and aiki these modern arts. Perhaps I should donate my library from classics of strategy to rare Chinese translations to personal writings of Don Draeger to some interesing twists on Japanese warfare with newer forensic studies to some needy soul. Are you denying the idea of a lower mean, a lower denominator, my budo wallpaper? The fact that Master level people stood out from the masses defines your own obvious resentment at their being "also rans." I will assume the lack of care and serious thought in your statement is intentionally flippant so I'll leave it at that. Dan |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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1. Plenty of Chinese martial arts teachers are strictly interested in teaching skills that work in a combative context (street or ring sport) and are not trying to make better people, teach spirituality, religion or anything like that. 2. Budo is not a Chinese concept, I've never heard any Chinese martial arts teacher discuss what he did in terms of budo. On at least one occasion I have heard someone dismiss the concept of budo entirely with the comment "that's a Japanese thing, we don't do that." The Chinese community is enormous, however, so there probably are some guys out there doing it, but it certainly isn't mainstream. |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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武 -- BU -- of or pertaining to military matters 道 -- DO -- way, art, way of life 武道 -- budo -- martial way, martial art What translation for budo would you prefer? Whether a martial art/budo is only, or even primarily, about "kicking asses" is a valid question, of course. But it seems to me that if a field of study claims to be a budo, then asking about the martial effectiveness of either the art or an individual practitioner is completely legit. Katherine |
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I recall reading a speech by O'sensei, where (to paraphrase) he says that the reason the world is in the state is in, is because those with the wisdom/correct spirit to guide society, have been lacking this martial ability: might trumps right - but if right can negate might (as aikido is said to be able to) then society can progress. Or you can flounce about with ribbons, and talk about peace, and not wanting to be martially effective...while the world burns. |
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You want to know why Gozo Shioda's uke for an instructional tape of Yoshinkan aikido's techniques, gives himself away easily? If somebody's centred, they cannot be thrown; in aikido, you take somebody's balance, and can therefore throw them with ease. The point of the instructor asking that his students test him, is to validate the effectiveness of his technique - i.e., so nobody looks at it and says "That's fake: he's taking a dive for him."; if I saw something similar in the Ki Aikido I have seen, I might actually regard it as effective. I know there are things I cannot see at the moment; however, I can tell when somebody is sincerely reacting to a technique - and when they are feigning it: it's happened to me often enough. Sincerely - Graham |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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The BAB is the body all aikido organisations in the UK belong to, I believe: it provides insurance, regardless of style. The BAF is the main aikikai affiliate, I believe. I believe I have seen his ki test videos. Regards - Graham |
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My thoughts..... |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
I should add - I continue on a regular basis, in my work, to go throughout this process of intensive examination and critique of my theory and techniques, approaches and outcomes with colleagues and senior therapists. This is called clinical supervision. To not do this is highly unethical. So, I do the same thing with my aikido.
Well, I hope this analogy fits somewhat. |
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
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I'm not competent to claim that this or that Aikido technique isn't in Daito-Ryu, and I'm not going to try. Instead, I focus on what O-Sensei chose to demonstrate vs. what Daito-Ryu masters choose to demonstrate. Public demonstrations may not be a perfect representation of the art, but they do at least show what the master in question thought people should see of their art. So have a look at the 1935 Asahi news file video. That's fairly early on in the Daito-Ryu/Aikido transition, but there's nothing there technically that would look out of place in a Modern Aikido (tm) dojo. Well, except the general excellence. (And the weird habit of ending with one hand high, palm up, the other low, palm down. What's that about? :rolleyes: ) Conversely, there's not much there that looks like what Daito-Ryu people choose to show when asked to demonstrate their art. Perhaps there's little there that they couldn't show if they chose to, but they don't generally choose to--it's apparently not what they consider most important. So it seems to me that at this point O-Sensei is already demonstrably moving in a new direction. Couple that with the story of him escaping Takeda Sokaku by sneaking away at night, abandoning his (Daito-Ryu) dojo to his former teacher, and the story writes itself. Sagawa and Kodo, as you point out, continued to call what they did Daito-Ryu. Why, when O-Sensei did not? Could it be that though they saw themselves as modifying the teaching they received, they saw their own arts as extensions of Sokaku's art? Whereas Ueshiba saw what he was doing as something essentially different? And again, the reaction of the other martial artists of his time. Did they go to Sagawa or Kodo, asking them what they called their art and refusing to take "Daito-Ryu" as an answer? Yet it seemed to be accepted that this Ueshiba thing needed a new name. I don't want to downplay your point that O-Sensei infused his art with his spiritual insight, by the way. I think that was certainly a key influence on what he decided to keep and what he threw away. In my view, he kept the movement that reinforced the spiritual attitude he wanted to engender: centered in the six directions, neither aggressive nor defensive, overcoming conflict by negating conflict. That became the core of his art, and he threw away extraneous techniques like a sculptor throws away all the material that doesn't contribute to the image he wants to present. |
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