Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

[sarcasm]
Yes, I suppose I must appologize to the Aikiweb community in general and Mr. Shaw in particular for shooting my mouth off without knowing what I'm talking about. I don't know the in's and out's of Aikido's politics, and for all I know, Mr. Shaw is correct and Aikikai really is lead by a load of egotistical philosophers whose students can't wait for them to die so they can rejigger the training and do it "realistically."

Then again, for all I know they're not. How does one check that sort of thing? The Aikikai people I've met since I started back in Aikido in 2004 seem nice enough to me, but again, I must be mistaken.

And of course I must have been mistaken when I read the plaque back in Guro Kevin Seaman's school that had the creed he wanted his students to follow, including "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems for they all have something to offer." I certainly mus have been totally incorrect to try and see what I get out of Aikido, not force it to suit me. That can't be what "open minded" means, now can it?

Please forgive me for yet again for wasting your badnwidth. I humbly submit to the requisit punishment of 100 lashes with a wet noodle.
[/sarcasm]

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Michael D,

Well, that was the spirit in which the video was done and created, we were just having a good time messing about with some ideas, nothing too serious. If you can't laugh while training then what is the point to it all? My nose it still not right after it got bounced off my glove. :D Best laugh I'd had in long time. Hopefully we can get another segment up in a few weeks for everyone's entertainment and our edification!

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

I for one am looking forward to another segment. If I can get a camera to film some of our stuff I'd probably post it so we could compare some notes too. I think this sort of training is very important for those who want to explore what can be expressed spontaneously through Aikido in a direct, measurable, physical sense.

Imho this sort of practice helps one to get out of the mind and movement "box" that often develops through kata training only and builds a bridge towards true spontaneous application of the strategy, tactics and waza that are enshrined within the Aikido philosophy. I even have pals who are within the Aikikai who welcome this sort of training because they realise that it can assist one in understanding and gain some real skill in spontaneously expressing the fundamental Aiki principles.

So film on Bob.
LC:ai::ki:

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Good luck with it.

What you might want to think about is borrowing a concept from systems that already come with kcikboxing integrated with locks and throws, such as Filipino maritial arts, in that kickboxing range material faciltitates entry, or getting past the person's defenses. In other words, kickboxing attack and defenses are not done for their own sake but to get you inside to where you can do a lock or throw. You don't just wan to evade or trade shots but get in and do something.

I belive Aikido has this idea, albiet stylized or in "shorthand." What we think of as the first portion of a technique is really the entry, which addresses the initial move and gets you away from other attacks. The pinciple is the same.

You may want to go a bit slower, if necessary, and think about how to evade but stay in close enough to do soemthing. Don't worry about getting a specifc lock or throw; just play with ways to get in where you CAN do something. This include atemi waza, given that one purpose for them seems to be to his the other person to prevent their next move.

I have no idea how well this will work, but it seems the logical way to go.

Just food for thought.

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

We will continue to film and post, both tanto as well as open/gloved hand randori. We will also practice as suggested at slower speeds in an effort to help the body memory ingrain reactions. Thanks for the encouragement. I'd love to see other folk's attempts at free styling, get a camera, LC!

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Also make a point on using your basic footwork and stances; don't go so nuts you forget all about that! If you want your hands up in more of a guarding position, ok. But pay attention to everything else.

Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

Hello everyone...

Bob and I are back for more abuse! After all of the insightful comments from last time we posted (special thanks to Sensei Ledyard, Sensei Camejo and all of the others) we decided to go for another round of Aiki-Boxing. We ran through some slo mo drills before taping as a few of you suggested. Then we threw some MMA gloves on tried to add a little more speed. We tried to implement some of the technique suggestions that we saw as well. We are always open to constructive criticism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI

We also put up some of our Tanto Randori practice (Sensei Camejo made some reference to that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8

Hope you all like it...

Thanks,

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com
http://www.mansfieldtomikiaikido.com

Re: Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

That's very cool, thanks for posting it up. It's definitely a great experiment.

I noticed nage stopping blows directly with his hands though...as in putting his hands up and catching the punches into his palms. That would mess you up without the boxing gloves wouldn't it?

Re: Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

Slapping blows is a common way to parry, however his hands are reaching out for blows, and this is commonly accepted as a bad idea.

By all means keep up what you are doing, its good progress. There were some nice throws in there, and it looks like great fun.

On to the negative part.

You are rushing the puncher in a very linear fashion. On top of this your hands are not guarding your body or your head. Even when your hands were up, they were dropped while rushing in for the clinch. A good striker would abuse this without remorse.

While there were some aiki moves in there, the majority of the techniques were a rush to clinch, then a poor wrestling/judo style takedown with both of you ending up on the ground. Only in very few of these cases did the guy doing the takedown land in a controlling position. Finally, while wearing the boxing gloves, the puncher would get sucked into moving backwards linearly. He should circle off and jab more to keep his partner at bay.

Good work though, I'd suggest spending some more time working judo throws, you are in great position to do them. You just need to work on your unbalancing more. You might try an opposite drill where one guy just tries to clinch while you try to break the clinch and throw.

Re: Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

Although if the idea is to develop aikido techniques, that might not be the best direction. I mean, if aikido people show they can use judo throws in an MMA-ish context...isn't that really judo-boxing instead of aiki-boxing?

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Fun stuff, and a good experiment. thanks for posting it.

I think that one of the most important things to remember in this type of encounter is that in Aikido, the outcome can often be determined in the initial engagement. Throws and locks can only be executed properly and safely if one is not open to a pummelling while trying to do them. So, with a striker, position is very important, along with knowing how to either eliminate, or successfully guard, openings. Without that, it's difficult to actually get to a throw or lock etc. without getting knocked out or smashed up too much first, as I think you've experienced.

I personally would work on the opening engagement much more - "blending" movements and dynamic positioning. This, to me, is what you have to figure out. Then everything after that will be somewhat easier. The moves are there in Aikido, but I would say they're not generally successfully taught in application to this kind of encounter. Parrying, covering properly, and understanding off-line irimi, guarding the strike zone, and circling movement, will go a long way.

LN

Re: Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

Jeff

I watched the new Aiki-Boxing.
The good news is you have improved, you move forward rather then back, and I hope you can feel the difference yourselves.

The bad news are this is still far from my understanding of Aiki. You are both too full and put too much importance on the end, rather then the way.
Focus the practice on the first movement, as Uke attacks, the Nage should get into superior position. Forget the throw \ continuation, and check if Nage achieved anything or is he still expecting to be hit. I rarely saw any example of superior position \ owning the space \ ... (Different people have different names for this).
You still practice at full speed, and thus neither your timing nor your movement has improved. Work slowly, both of you, and let the strike enter if you were too late.

Very often you jump straight into the line of attack. This is both a sign of waking up too late and knowing it (in your body) and of lack of experience in Aikido movement.
Irimi into the center is legitimate when you actually control via the move. One should not move this way if he is totally open.

Hope this gives you some more hints.

Amir

Re: Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

Hello Jeff,

I have to comment on this because it simply doesn't look much like Aikido. Granted this may be because Aikido is difficult to use, or not geared toward modern attacks. I applaud your efforts to update the techniques with more realistic training. But if we don't try to apply the principles then it becomes bad MMA. Take this with a grain of salt of course, because I don't have a camera or opportunity to try to go you one better on this. What makes this look unlike Aikido to me is the lack of control and decisiveness. I don't know which person is you, but I would expect nage to be more reserved and in control of his own center, waiting for uke to attack. In some scenarios it seems nage is moving around just as much and just as uncentered as uke.

Clearly, trying to gain control of uke's arms in a boxing context is simply not going to work, and in addition it's not up to nage to dictate the technique used. If uke grabs you, fine, but otherwise reaching for his arms could never work to control his center. Look at the Shioda clips on your site. In some cases he strikes as uke enters, which of course is a difficult timing issue. But I would suggest forgetting about manipulating uke's arms most of the time. Take over the space he occupies and manipulate his head. Forget about the lead hand, there is no reliable way to capture a jab even if you go from the shoulder. Against someone with better boxing skill it would be totally hopeless. If uke were to restrict himself to either single jab, or fake plus jab, or double jab, just those three options at random, you'd never get the arm. I think the best chance to get an arm is to focus on his rear hand. When he starts to throw a jab, smother it and attack his rear hand, smothering both at the same time since he may being doing a 1 - 2, and then either going for his head or his rear arm with ikkyo if it's in the way. Only if he tries to throw the rear hand while you're in contact with it would tenkan be appropriate. If you miss the entry, you can't chase him though. If you're chasing him, how can it be Aikido? You become the attacker then and he can counter you. Evade as needed until he overcommits, or you can time it and control his center even if he doesn't commit. If you both do essentially the same thing, but one tries using Aikido techniques while the other boxes, that just doesn't seem to be Aikido to me, you may as well just box. Well, that's my armchair quarterbacking. If it doesn't work and this is the direction you want to go, then real MMA training may be a better option.

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Thanks so much for the insight everyone. We did make many changes to how we moved since the first attempt. Neither of us claim to be doing this perfectly... we're just trying something out that we know would be extremely difficult. We are absolutely doing this from a frame of mind of mutual education and it is very helpful to get such great feedback from people all over the world. Your suggestions are all very valid and we appreciate them all.

We are trying to avoid making this into an "MMA" style thing, and we are making an honest effort to use aiki techniques and principles. I like the idea of trying to control uke's head... one of the most difficult things we've found is trying to get that arm under control.

Amir... I can definitely tell the difference when feeling like I'm moving forward instead of retreating. I'm glad it is showing up... I know that I'm reacting and moving in instead of blending. I guess that's why we're practicing this! We did do some slow motion stuff before this, but we didn't get it on tape.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to get circular movements in with such quick direct attacks.

Thanks again for all of the input... it is very valuable to me and I really appreciate it. We'll try to get another tape on this sometime in the next few weeks and we'll post another as long as anyone is interested!

Jeff D.

P.S. This is kind of like distance learning with Aikido... interesting.

Re: Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

Great improvements in tai sabaki and irimi in this video. Much improvement also in looking for/creating opportunities for Aiki waza.

Jeff: You appeared to be very "hand" centred. This means that you are often rushing in hands first, using a lot of upper body strength without much follow up by engaging your centre to provide power and stability for your waza through your hands or to manipulate your attacker's movements. What often happens is that when you make hand on hand contact with your attacker he feels your movements through that contact and as a result will find ways to avoid or block your technique by relaxing and feeling your movements. Waki shimete (keeping armpit closed while executing technique) should help some. It will also help you to keep the arms and hands relaxed to feel and adapt to the attacker's changes better while being able to generate power and movement from your legs the instant you want to attempt technique.

Imho you also did quite a bit of stepping backward when you put the MMA gloves on and appeared to be using more of a boxing tactical set, standing toe to toe with your attacker a lot and attempting to tie up his hands at close range boxing style. Keep moving at angles and force him to adjust and recalibrate, this will assist you in creating an opening to his side for entry and technique or force him to strike and give you an opening. Your loss of footing on a few occasions occured when you tried to "muscle through" some techniques instead of keeping posture and using i do ryoku (power of movement).

Bob: Great improvements in technique discipline. I saw a few times where you felt the need to go for a leg reap or sacrifice throw and successfully stopped the urge and did the Aiki waza that was available at the time. You got off a few good hiji waza as well as a couple aigamae ate and mae otoshi, which was nice. The only bad thing I saw was similar to what Jeff was doing when entering with hands raised, your attacker was able to sense your intent and movement and shut down your options, causing you to run after him a bit. It's good to try to initiate contact instead of always waiting to react to an attack but it is difficult unless one can get in a deceptive, clean atemi that gives the opponent zero reaction time (i.e. no telegraphing).

I think generally when you guys put the MMA gloves on you went a bit into a "strike focused" approach instead of a movement, timing and entry approach that is more characteristic of Aiki waza. Remember how we do atemi waza in Shodokan/Tomiki, if it does not penetrate through the attacker enough to cause severe kuzushi then it will be difficult for atemi to have much effect. Imho putting the gloves on may have encouraged you guys to try using the more percussive approach to atemi (instead of the full power entering strike/pushes we use) which would result in some of the lighter, impact oriented strikes that had little or no effect on balance. I personally find it easier and safer to go full force with our type of atemi instead of the impact-oriented type during freeplay.

Imho I think however you folks should not worrry too much about what others believe "looks like Aikido" since most have never seen or used Aikido in a full resistance "fight" type setting (it never resembles kata closely) and also, the vast majority of our (Tomiki/Shodokan) randori waza tend to be quite linear (quite different to what many might believe Aikido to be). Having said this however the core Aiki principles must be there.

Will post comments on the tanto randori later. Trying to get some of our stuff on tape so we can compare notes. It should be up soon as long as I get someone who can handle the ukemi who also has some decent boxing type skills. We however have no boxing mits so that should be most interesting.:)

Overall good improvements.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

While in many ways you might be the best person to figure out what you might improve, or what ideas might help, I thought I'd throw something in on the off chance that an outside suggestion (with less knowledge of the specifics) might help.

One of my all-time favorite articles on Aikido is the following:

Irimi, by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=686

One of the key ideas I take from this article is that all tenkan begins with irimi. That is, the circular movements begin with a strong, direct thrust in off-line. Only after uke's balance is disrupted do you turn it into a spiraling motion.

In my limited BJJ experience, although dealing with grabs and takedowns rather than boxing jabs, I also have trouble with circular movements. I feel like I generally get "out-circled"; that is, they take advantage of my turning to get to my back.

Re: Aiki-Boxing part deux...
 

[quote=Larry Camejo;177622]Great improvements in tai sabaki and irimi in this video. Much improvement also in looking for/creating opportunities for Aiki waza.

Thanks Larry, I appreciate your comments as you have an understanding of how Tomiki aikido works as compared to more "circular" aikido systems.

[quote=Larry Camejo;177622]Bob: Great improvements in technique discipline. The only bad thing I saw was similar to what Jeff was doing when entering with hands raised, your attacker was able to sense your intent and movement and shut down your options, causing you to run after him a bit.

Agreed, very difficult to resist chasing uke after initial contact and the raised hands do give away intention and put uke on the defensive. Thanks for the comments on improved discipline. We played some tanto first which helped me to generalize and transfer the skills.

[quote=Larry Camejo;177622] Imho putting the gloves on may have encouraged you guys to try using the more percussive approach to atemi (instead of the full power entering strike/pushes we use) which would result in some of the lighter, impact oriented strikes that had little or no effect on balance.

Yes, the MMA gloves make me want to strike as in sparring instead of focusing on doing atemi waza full bore. Excellent observation. Will have to work harder on that.

[quote=Larry Camejo;177622]Imho I think however you folks should not worry too much about what others believe "looks like Aikido" since most have never seen or used Aikido in a full resistance "fight" type setting (it never resembles kata closely) and also, the vast majority of our (Tomiki/Shodokan) randori waza tend to be quite linear (quite different to what many might believe Aikido to be). Having said this however the core Aiki principles must be there.

Now that is very true. I was bothered initially because so many folks said the same thing: "it doesn't look like aikido". You are right on the money, resistance aikido is much more linear and I am not focusing on those comments anymore. That is really a matter of perception. Instead I'm just trying to get clean atemi waza or hiji waza. Tekubi waza is going to be almost impossible to get on a gloved hand in a traditional sense unless we concentrate on the forearm, not the wrist. Jeff actually can get a modified kotehineri that is effective but still has trouble keeping balance coming out of the turn so it doesn't look "aiki", it probably looks like a twisting jujitsu arm drag to most folks. I am looking into getting heavier padded MMA gloves as they would allow for more tekubi waza as compared to boxing gloves. But as you say: "the core Aiki principles must be kept!" Therein lies the hard work.

[quote=Larry Camejo;177622] We however have no boxing mitts so that should be most interesting.:)

Good luck with that!! Thanks for your comments!

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

[quote=Paul Sanderson-Cimino;177628]
One of my all-time favorite articles on Aikido is the following:

Irimi, by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=686

One of the key ideas I take from this article is that all tenkan begins with irimi. That is, the circular movements begin with a strong, direct thrust in off-line. Only after uke's balance is disrupted do you turn it into a spiraling motion.

Great article, very apropos to our experiment. I'll be thinking about that all week, Paul. Thanks!!!

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

[quote=Robert King;177637] This is what I was getting at with "take over the space he occupies", and I think it's what people are getting at when they say it visually doesn't look like Aikido. According to the article, tenkan happens if the opponent reacts a certain way to having his center taken, but the clear point is that Irimi is the key. It has to be decisive and disruptive enough that it will affect his center even if he is not strongly committing his center to an attack. Please note again that these comments are not to imply that I or others can do better, only that we aren't seeing that bold and decisive (hopefully in your favor) irimi which should be the main principle. Easier said than done, but again I applaud your willingness to do this and share it.

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

I'll add in, "Study some more boxing technique" while I'm at it.

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Amdur Sensei's article is spot on.

This is precisely what I meant when I spoke about using the penetrating,.balance-taking, blow/throw Shodokan type atemi instead of the percussive type of atemi that you tried with the gloves. Because you are practicing and attempting to maintain a modicum of safety it will be difficult (unsafe) to apply full force impacting atemi that penetrates so that you occupy your attacker's space. A good alternative then is to use the atemi you are accustomed to from our randori method, which is not as impactful/percussive but is very effective at taking the attacker's space and balance. This can also be applied at full power without worrying about the possibility of injury too much.

You indicated that with the MMA gloves on you felt compelled to spar, boxing style with Jeff, which is exactly against what Ellis, I and others have indicated regarding Aikido tactics, irimi and atemi. Imho you should lose the MMA gloves when in the role of Tori/Aikidoka in this case and use the style of atemi that would allow you to go full power without the need of gloves (blow/throw option instead of impacting force blow only option). This will allow you to take your attacker's space much more effectively without having to hold back in your atemi waza. You actually did this once with an aigamae ate in the video.

On tenkan, irimi is very important also. You will see with some of Jeff's attempts at waza you were spun around until you both fell to the ground. This is what happens when irimi is not used before tenkan, both people start orbiting each other until one or both lose balance. When we tenkan correctly however we should be the centre or controlling/anchoring element of the circle or spiral. We get initial control through good irimi.

Just my few cents. Hope it helps.
LC:ai::ki:

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Only the attacker should wear gloves,
and they should be small.
This will change everything for the better but increase the risk of a bloody nose or chipped tooth. Which is nice.

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Mouthguards FTW.

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

In more resistive, sparring environments, and against larger, stronger opponants, I find hiji shime / waki gatami to be your fast friend...but be careful not to send your partner to the bone doc...

Best,
Ron

Re: Aiki-Boxing
 

Example: http://tinyurl.com/f6rje
[Warning: Rather nasty imagery.]