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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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and I say that from personal experience as an Iaido teacher. I have had iaido students from many styles of aikido, because Iaido is another thing outside of aikido politics. It's made me appreciate the focus on mind and body coordination even when I didn't appreciate the lack vigorous practice sometimes. I am sneaking in internal stuff all the time from Tohei Sensei and elsewhere, because it's universal in having effective technique. Whether it bleeds back into their aikido I don't know. -Craig |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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excellent point! exactly. |
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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One of senior students who had a injury that was turning out to be chronic was able to continue because of stuff he adapted from Ellis's DVD in the discussion of ukemi. |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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I tell ya the conversation after was most interesting. They both were looking at a model Of how this will change their aikido. Tom was chewing things over about how to have it effect his dojo, considering its effect on his personal aikido. There was a logic string to the discussion (got to love the military mindset) Him thinking things through, to training himself before his students, or to training with them, what effects, what’s more efficient for transmission. His mind was whirling and planning in such a way and with such intriguing questions that brought in single individuals-to-dojo to multiple ramifications of what this Aiki does to Aikido. He was a real thinker. I was impressed. I just talked with Stan and they’re coming back in a couple of weeks so I’ll let you know. In the greater topic of the thread this is just another example of Aikidoka making their personal choices of what to do. Its really not about me. As Ron so aptly quoted me- I care more about what you guys are going to do on your own turf and in your own personal expression. Each of you becoming somebody substantial to reckon with- though your personal expression of your Aikido. Should be an interesting couple of years Cheers Dan |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Everyone I've met in Aikido- just like everywhere else-is up to the challenge. Its just up to all of us to do the work. For some reason-I don't know why-I have a dojo lately full of currently practicing AIkido folks -several of whom are teachers-doing just that.
I suggest if you have a problem with them talking about both their Aikido and their training, here, on this forum, just tell them so. I'm sure they would like to hear your thoughts. I'll continue to talk to them about the Aiki-do we did just last night for 5 hours. I thank you for once again sharing your wonderful, uplifting, and swell contributions. And thank you ever so much for your kind words. Good luck in your training Dan |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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For someone who has yet to touch hands with Dan, Mike or Rob (one days guys, in this lifetime), I understand perfectly where they are coming from. I have tested my aikido against taiji, karate, jujitsu, judo, you name it.... and failed miserably. I had to do it the hard way and go back to the drawing board, working from first principles, starting right back at the basics, and even beyond the basics to arrive at where I am, where I can start to grasp the gist of what Dan and Mike are really saying and how it is particularly relevant to MY aiki training. IOW, I arrived at this (level of) understanding quite independently of knowing Dan or Mike. Whilst I don't claim to be able to fully understand, know or even do what Dan and Mike (or even Rob) are saying to whatever level of competency, I do know that is where I want to take my aikido to the next level. If you have no desire to accept what Dan or Mike are saying, then tune out. But for the rest of us that do... they are an important part of our own learning and development process. "Teachers" come in many forms... they don't all have to be dressed in the appropriate attire or have the charisma and charm of Tony Robbins. That said, I don't believe that either Dan or Mike are "teaching" anything, much less proselytizing. They're simply sharing and exchanging information... or debating the validity of that information... as we all are. On a metaphorical level, I see what they are doing as creating aiki in that they are playing uke... it's what you do with that "gift" that's important.... ;) |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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Best, Mark |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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If I'm understanding you correctly (as well as the terminology others are using), are these exercises primarily aimed at creating pathways within yourself to deal with incoming forces? Do you also train your body's structure to store and release power? Can you give any specifics on the drills (solo or paired, etc.) that you do (I'm not super familiar with Tohei's drills other than what others have mentioned on boards like these) to train these things within yourself? What kinds of benchmarks for success or failure do you use? Quote:
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Thanks in advance for your responses. I also want to repeat a HUGE thank you to EVERYONE that's contributing their thoughts/experiences. It's been a very lively and informative discussion to be privvy to, but again, as a very small fry in this happy meal, I'm gonna bow back out and return to lurkdom. |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Mike Haft wrote: "As an example I recall Ellis Amdur writing something around here about Tomiki having a bunch of young judoka trying to move his arm and not being able to. He made note that it was not the Tohei style 'unbendable arm' exercise and described unbendable arm (but inaccurately)." It was Tomiki - not Tohei. The real issue was that the people were free to do ANYTHING to the arm, and couldn't. And - he then threw them - judoka - with just a subtle movement of the wrist.
Best |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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As to the rest your best bet it to read one of Tohei's books. IMHO Chinese style internal arts are very good, but they are out of step with aikido because they do not aim to train fudoshin in the same way. I think that fudoshin is probably the most important aspect of ki-aikido, again, IMHO. Like I said, similar to the Chinese stuff but also slightly different in aim and focus. Back to making pathways for a minute, I recall people over on aikido-l telling a story of the late George Simcox Sensei sitting on a wheelie chair (typical office type chair) and having people push on his shoulders only to discover he didn't move or slide across the floor but stayed rooted to the spot. Like I said, plenty of this stuff been happening in aikido for decades if you look for it. Simcox Sensei is sdaly missed. I think the last time I wrote anything to him over on aikido-l I was less than polite, I can't even recall why now, I just hope I've lived and learned since then. I wish he was still here to talk about these things. Quote:
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Anyway, other computer is done with the simulation now so back to the grind. Regards Mike |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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Apologies for any confusion. Regards Mike |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
I have moved many posts from this thread to the "Why are you here on his forum?" thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11423 -- Jun |
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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However, if this is about fights, then heck, why not just pull out my trusty Sig, point it between the person's eyes and stop them in their tracks? Heck, if it's about fights, I can stand there all day long and let my buddy whump on them. Ooooh, wait, if it's about fights, I can practice my ninjer skills and throw knives and shuriken at them and not have to move. If it's about fights, I can have my 125 pound wolf at my side and then I really wouldn't have to move. ;) If you want to talk about fighting, that's fine. I can do that. But, really, sarcasm aside, I was talking about base training skills. Even if you are applying things to fighting, you don't just jump into the UFC ring with a Gracie and expect to hold your own. There are methods used. And if you've been using internal skill methods all along, for years, then you should have some measure of skill, right? That was what I was getting at. If you can do those things, hey, that's great. As to martial skill? Well, I guess we disagree there, too. I think they add to training. But, hey, it's all IMO. Mark |
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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Isn't that when it becomes interesting? |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Or more to the point, the ability to properly hit a speed bag is a parlor trick. You fight as you train, and if you train to rhythmically hit an air filled bag over and over again while somebody takes a whack at you, guess what will happen...
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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Mark |
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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Just to be clear those were my examples. From the very first night, when folks are juuust begining to learn, I have them start to feel it and do some small things in motion. I understand the confusion. Rest assured these skills are free form and fluid in motion; whether expressed in Aiki-do Aikijujutsu or freetslye fighting. Static dills are for training only. Its like hitting a bag or rolling with a bag. In one way its training to change your body, in another just to test what your training. The rest is in motion. Usually the first time I meet folks I have them try to throw us or lock us anyway they wish. Its not for a "look at me!" exibition- which are really bothersome and a pain- they are to show fellows that your not leading them-on into some dumb "ki" demonstration that is uselss in a fight. My goals are to get folks doing these things then and there and give them ways to start to practice. As for the practical uses usually me or one of my guys will start hitting a heavy bag or tossing follks. If it is AIkido folks-maybe showing various free relaxed movements and lock resistance. In MMA we do other things. One stellar by-product is heavy hands and an ability to resist takedowns. Realize that much of the training inlvoves exercises as well. THink of it like core training. There is No corellation to core training- but it helps to think of it like that. Its like building the body... on the inside. And it is the cornerstone of how Aiki is made. In-yo ho Too many folks think of leading a push in a movement and call it aiki. Aiki is first made in us Cheers Dan |
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum
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I liked your description... I realize that much of this stuff has to be shown and felt but I'd be interested to hear about the exercises you do to develop the body structure (to the extent that you can explain it verbally). My own experience with what I think you are talking about is actually via Systema. I did have some very brief instruction from Mike but only enough to leave me hungry for more. - George |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Hi George
It has been my experience that writing and video....don't work. Even hands-on is often overwhelming. That said the only way I can share this stuff is hands on. Its small changes, over time. Even with guys now coming every month or so-the're sill doing things only in pieces. As you do things you realize as you were sustaining this or that-you left out this other piece. While stretching here- your weren't winding there. Or while moving you suddenly realize you were all in your thighs and forgot your spine. The funny part is the mental focus and the buzz, gives out before the body does. The one benefit I can guaranty- is that if folks do the work -they will change. Period. As Murray and Ron have stated about my guys- "They all can do it to a degree and explain it- hands on." On recent visitor said it best at dinner. "It isn't you, Dan that gives me hope. Its your 28 yr old guy who got me to be able to do things I can't believe, your one year student, your dojo full of folks who can do.. We've all met or felt some incredible expert here or there-with skills we know we'll never achived. Your students, not you, made it real for me." I thought that was pretty cool. For the first time (though my guys trounced me quickly) I felt like a teacher. So teaching on the net just doesn't work. But at least -as many know after asking for years- for the first time I'm willing to share. It was a certain mutual friend (a teacher himself) who made change my mind about sharing with people. I still haven't decided whether or not to thank him or kick him for that. I know I'm not up to the job-I suck at teaching, and I'm a nobody so I have to figure out how to grow into the job. As we all know at this age, it just means more screw ups, false starts and frustrations for moi.... I think it may be fitting that it is Aiki folks who are searching this out. And I think I am enjoying that so far. Its still new though. Lets see if I can avoid it screwing up my own goals. Cheers Dan |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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- George |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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Dan |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
I posted this in the External VS internal thread But thought better of it. I thnk it addresses Gerges comments...and my confusion over many conflicting statements given by those in AIkido.
Where do you find your answers if its not OK to train with Mike, rob or or me? Where is the interal skills in Aikido's past? Where does the past lead? You had a plethora of men surrounding Ueshiba, sitting there under his direct tutelage and many lectures. Yet oddly enough, probably his two best; Tohei and Shioda, went elsewhere for their own enlightenment. With those that remained clearly stating they did not understand him. What remains of Ueshiba is his pointed to two places. Daito ryu and esoteric Shinto practices. On Aikiweb we read these arguments put forth by many in Aikido that only Aikidoka can really speak to Aikido issues. People are being told by teachers to look to Aikido teachers for their answers. Yet if we research and read even here we see: 1. Tohei pointing and even going elsewhere and then? He left and started his own art. 2. Shioda pointing and going elsewhere and then? He left and started his own art. 3. Ueshiba pointing and stating clearly that Takeda opened his eyes to true Budo. Then? Ueshiba pointing and training esoteric Shinto and solo training- and then? HE- left and started his own art. Were one to follow the logic one would jump ship, find internal skills and then? Leave and start their own art. I'm still ruminating over George and Dennis's many comments about only Aikidoka being able to fix/work-on/adjust/modify or alter Aikido. Then being told to look back to the masters in Aikido. Many of whom are pointing everywhere else BUT Aikido. All while the student is being told …they…of course must not look anywhere else. Where do they go to get a straight answer? Now I read where some teachers are openly stating "Go train and steal it. And bring it back to alter/fix/adjust that.... which they- by their own admonitions state doesn't need to be fixed to begin with." All while I read where Ikeda is now looking elswhere -like to Ushiro- for internal coaching And now....just recently I read where some, George included, are stating it finally is ok to go get and bring back. I think that's a pretty fair take on many of the positions written here. So, just who, is stating Aikidoka should do... what? And what harm is there in a student openly admitting theyt went elsewhere? Cheers Dan |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Dan, please check PM. Thx
Sorry all, it's the only way I can get through, sometimes. ;) |
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