Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

correct, but try touching lightly on the forearms closer to the wrists.
It will be more of a challenge for you. Any unconscious tendency to
push back at all will quickly cause you to fail. So it can be more instructive on getting the correct feel of your body or mental state.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Beautifully said...

Actually, the Yoshinkan also has an interesting demonstration, as described in Angry White Pyjamas (p 223) "... I saw Chida do ogi, secret techniques, for the first time in a demonstration. He ordered two assistants to hoist him into the air, each assistant firmly holding one arm so that Chida was apparently helpless, two or three feet off the ground. It was like watching Houdini escape. For a moment, nothing happened and then Chida jumped to the ground while at the same time the two assistants flipped up into the air. Chida's secret power was to send his centre of gravity down to his feet without moving. At the same time he changed, minutely, his arm position, which broke the assistants' double-handed grip."

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

did the search on youtube and there is nothing in the videos from the first two remotely like what we are discussing here.

Akuzawa search leads to videos that lead to some interesting e-budo discussion here though sort of off the topic of this thread, some familiar names pop up from years past
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...p/t-31125.html

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

I think is for many an almost an inevitable stage in progress, early on you simply haven't got the skill or body sense to be sensitive enough to what's going on.

A good teacher recognizes this and helps guide you so that you gain the ability to see what's up and become more of a challenge to him and therefore forces him to continue to revise and improve.

A bad teacher exploits this process and guides you down the path towards cultish self-delusion.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Clarke's Law applies in martial art -- as in every other form of applied knowledge.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Craig,
The Akuzawa videos (and Wang Pei Sheng etc) are not "off topic." They are on topic because they show how to use the body in a method related to what Tohei was probably teaching.

The "immovable to a push" stuff especially relates to this thread. You don't have to take my word for it, you can try it yourself (as in, do the drills and exercises) and see.

Re: You might not believe this
 

Erm, feet off ground = lifted.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Hi Craig:

I agree with some of what you say, but I have a somewhat different perspective. Although Criss Angel was using his arms to push upward on the incoming force, the physics was technically not much different from real "ki", if you do an analysis. Criss has no "ki" skills (which admittedly encompass a number of western skills, not just one, as we would look at it in a western science perspective), but his physics usage would come close to the same vector analysis for a similar demonstration using "ki".... it would have to, if you really think about it. Instead of pushing up with the arms, someone with "ki" skills (or "jin" in the Chinese) would essentially come under the incoming force with a counter force, thus ensuring that the pusher is adding to the force which defeats his push against the demonstrator. Whether someone with "ki" can mentally form those upward paths through his body or whether a demonstrator like Angel can simply push upward with his arms doesn't matter a lot in the big-picture analysis. If you look at many videos of similar resistances by Ueshiba, Tohei, and others, you can see that the skill they are demonstrating is mainly a mental-physical ability to manipulate force vectors.

The caution I would mention is that there's more to "ki" than just these simple examples of one area of skills. And BTW, I'd congratulate Raul for his preceptions of what was going on. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

How do you know this?

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

I can see it. Can't you? If he had any ki skills he wouldn't have to do what he does. Surely as a "teacher", you can see this?

Mike Sigman

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Criss is a magician. He has no ki skills. Anyone with a modicum of observation skills can see this plainly. Watch how he limits the push of the first person by pushing up on the elbows. All he has to do is control the first person and while the first person is trying to maintain his balance, the rest of the line is merely supporting the person in front of them.

With the unliftable body trick, note how he's changed the angle of his elbows so that the 2 guys are lifting in a different direction other than up.

Exploiting the physics and mechanics for sure... ki definitely not. Not even close.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Also, all you 'mainstream aikikai' guys should note that Osensei did 'ki tricks' like this all the time. Including one where he sat on the ground and had a ton of people push his forehead to try to topple him, and one where he held a jo with 9 guys pushing on it and unable to budge him.

in other words, it ain't just tohei. And it begs the question, why don't the current aikikai dudes do these things if Osensei did them?

where's the ??

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

A distinction without a difference.

Apparently, knowledge of Clarke's Law has suffered:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Or, if you prefer the Old Man:

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

And so much for Clarke... Now then, here's "Clark's Law":

No matter what happens, there's always somebody who KNEW it would, but still can't explain HOW it did.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

I don't place much faith in "seeing" skills. The eyes are very easily fooled, as any good magician knows.
I believe EVERYBODY has "ki skills."
Some are just better developed than others.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Touché: sort of like how EVERYBODY speaks French, just some better than others.

-ck

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo, :disgust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Darth Vader did it too :cool:

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Just once I want to be the guy holding the sword.


That and I want a waver that says I'm not responsible for my actions.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

Et les exemples d'escrime, ca, c'est du merde gauloise, alors, pour les Belges impressionables. :blush:

And another set of four-hinge arch manipulations at the beginning, by the way :D

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

What the heck is 'ki skills' - the way we interpret ki in aikido seems all wrong. I think people need a better understanding in the chinese arts and philosophy before using such words.

When it comes down to it, the best way to encourage ki flow is relaxation, good diet, exercise and sleep. Basically - stay healthy and practise hard. I hate this mysticism rubbish, it takes away from the real practice, and from any real understanding of ki/chi (P.S. 'jin' is the physical manifestation of ki (i.e. power)in chinese, 'chi' is the chinese equivalent of ki). Taoist practise is derived from naturalness and simplicity. Everything is just as it seems!

P.S. that French video is hilarious! If only the samurai had worked harder instead of slacking they could have developed such skills!

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

actually, as someone mentioned before, Ki Society has people doing these 'tricks' from day one, and the idea of ki is explained so simply that a 2nd grader could quite easily comprehend it. In fact, ki is what we are all born with, it's the cutting OFF of ki with tension and adult mind/body discoordination that causes problems. Ever have a baby grab your finger and squeeze? those guys have KI. Also, babies can cry much louder and much longer than most of us can do a kiai. That's what it is about for me, getting back to that state of connection with all life.

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

There might be some misunderstanding about the Aikikai - it's actually an umbrella organization with different styles... IMHO, the 'style' is not distinctive as the Yoshinkan or Ki Society... For example, students of Yamaguchi Sensei stress certain techniques/exercises which one may not see in students of Abe Sensei.

As for ki exercises within the Aikikai... I'm not sure... what I do know is that some Ki Society groups joined the Aikikai... but they could have retained some of the ki exercises in their daily training (even though they are now Aikikai). I was privileged to train in one of those 'previous Ki Society' dojos and I distinctly remember doing the 'sayu undo' warm-up exercise... something which one doesn't see in a dojo that has been Aikikai from the beginning... so it might not be too hard to imagine that some of these dojos could be practicing the Ki exercises as well... but someone else has to confirm...

I think all the mainstream Aikido organizations have something to offer. I own books written for Aikikai students, Ki Society members, Yoshinkan students and even Tomiki practitioners. Of course, one has to make a choice, but it doesn't mean we shut our minds off to what the other groups have to teach :)

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

I bet another big reason you don't see many ki development exercises within the aikikai umbrella is the fact that Tohei sensei didn't learn the exercises from O Sensei, he learned them from Nakamura Tempu sensei. Just a thought....

Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei
 

which ones are those?

are you talking about:

udemawashi
zenshin koshin
ikkyo hitori waza
sayu undo
sayu undo choyaku
funakogi waza
mae ukemi
ushiro ukemi
ushiro tekubitori zenpo nage

ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, or yonkyo?

Those are most of the exercises we use as 'ki exercises'. Which ones are foreign to Aikido?