Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I read a little of the start of this. I also read a little of it here.

I think it's very usefel. After I burned a lot of time on these petty arguments, there was moments of clarity--freedom from anger. At those moments, I could see what was happening to me--What I was losing.

It actually changed my life. I was more brought into the fold of aiki-mentality? Recognizing what "mental-Aikido" is, maybe. Or, recognizing that there's a right and wrong technique in words as in physical techniques?

So, I figure it might be useful for them in that way.

Second, it's useful because I can drop in and be reminded of what a jack-a** I was. LOL.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

BTW: I don't claim to be perfect or consistent in the application of these ideas;)

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Heh. :) I have to admit that that may have been one of the funnier statements I've read on an Aikido forum. I assume it's your "aiki-mentality" that forces you to imply other people are "jack-a**'es". Really a good one. "Aiki-Speak" at its truest. :D

Anyone noticed how much trivialization has been attempted in this thread? Or how much explicative, direct knowledge of "ki" and "one point", etc., was actually contributed by Aikido experts in the lead-in conversations?

One of the interesting things I was mulling over on my trip back from the mountains a little bit ago was the idea that "How to do Ki things" is something that a number of *western* Aikido experts are making out to be "how is this useful in Aikido and you need to prove it". An interesting approach to the discussion of something that's supposedly a cornerstone of Aikido. I decided that the reason this is so intriguing to me was that when I got a whiff of it from a Japanese Aikidoist many years ago, I could see the value and I started chasing it down. What I'm watching with interest is people whose approach is quite different from chasing it down.

It's that curiosity and desire I experienced compared to casual dismissal by *some* Aikidoists; not all.... bear in mind that there are a few Aikido players on this forum and other places that do have some good and demonstrable skills that I respect. And I've seen them just shrug off the trivializers crowd, but the mentality of the trivializers constantly draws my attention. What intrigues me is the size (within the western Aikido community) of the dismissive crowd who would like to trivialize the topic. The one question I keep probing at is the logic behind the dismissive segment... and I keep trying to get people like Chuck Gordon to explain it to me logically instead of trying to piddle on threads that contain the question. No emotion attached... just keen clinical interest in the thought processes involved.

Just thinking out loud.

Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

It depends on your perspective, I suppose. Tohei totally rips into people at times with little snips (i.e, Ki in Daily Life he calls U.S. soldiers weak for dying in the "death" marches. The French Aikido's founder [I can't remember his name. I think the style is Yoseikan] talked smack about Tohei in regard to recognizing that internal troubles would cause issues for Tohei in Aikikai by saying "I saw it coming, I guess you could say my Ki was stronger. There's hundreds of them.)

I think aiki-mentality would be more along the line of trivializers who recognize there's nothing you can do. Like when I say something stupid and the seniors don't respond.

I guess your Ki isn't very strong...since you responded.

LMAO!! I'm just messing with you. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Even better!!! Compare yourself to Tohei as an excuse!!! Heh. ;)

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

LMAO! You're a nut-case. I'll compare myself to an apple or box if I want to exemplify straight and round lines...not as an excuse...only to help you understand.

Hahaha.

I can't play anymore. I've reached the obnoxious boundaries of my aiki-mentality.

Hugs and kisses from a fellow jack-a**. LOL.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Oh, I dunno. I think the venom portrays a lot of what is behind much of the "aiki-mentality" and "aiki-speak". Most of the experienced Aikidoists know that most of the outside martial community and a LOT of the Aikido community realize there is a great deal of passive-aggressive behaviour behind much of the "aiki-mentality" facade. I think you've done a pretty good job of displaying it, Jean. Don't sell yourself short. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Going back to an earlier post...
 

Seems a fairly clear assertion, does anyone have an opinion on whether this is - or isn't - what happens?

(Feel free to stick this in the One Point thread btw)

Re: Going back to an earlier post...
 

The problem with this sort of discussion is that there should be a *number* of Aikido teachers who just casually agree "Yeah, that's a general description of it, alright", and then the conversation should move forward with perhaps someone else mentioning his preferred method of concentrating the breath at the tanden/hara. It's a very basic discussion. But since the number of people who can describe how to do this is fairly limited (although I am quite well aware that there are a number of people reading the thread that know how to do this thing, but who aren't commenting), it leaves some people free to take partial umbrage that there is something being discussed which they don't know about. Is it better to use "Aiki Speak" and simply not discuss these core concepts in order to not offend anyone???? ;)

I think I posted a website previously that mentioned Misogi and "concentrating the breath at the navel". "Breath" can by synonymous with "Ki". Part of the problem with the very generic word "Ki" is that often "what kind of ki" becomes a question. Is it air, pressure, fascia-'tension', electro-magnetic/nerve responses, etc. In the general case, the most probable usage is a buildup of pressure in the lower abdomen, bounded by the diaphragm, the abdominal walls and spine, and by clinching the perineum/anus area (this is the same thing, for the same purpose, as a yogic "lock").

FWIW

Mike

Re: Going back to an earlier post...
 

Sorry, I meant to say: does anyone except Mike Sigman have an opinion on whether this is - or isn't - what happens? ;)

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

well if it makes you feel better, I do and I didn't start feeling a pressure area in that abdominal region , a sort of hard knot, and sometimes a quite intense heat too, until years into my regular aikido practice. But then again I've not had specific instruction on this and i've been stumbling around these topics for quite a while (I don't want to be fumbling forever either) What/how/where and when this is useful, I have very little idea, I'm trying to find out more.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

No kidding. I dunno either. But I do know what passive-aggressive looks like. At no time does it look like screwing with someone in such a direct way as I usually take (as on this occasion).

Don't confuse wit with passive-aggression.

My experience concurs with your's, there seems to be more fakers in the liberal/artsy/granola-eating/peace-loving types. It's like the new VW commercials where they're driving around and everyone has a blow-horn...but they're sooo superior they don't need their's. The peace-knicks need to "prove" how superior they are the same as the buyer of a VW...because they're denying what they are. Unfortunately, they're so busy trying to prove it, they don't see that they're the opposite in their behavior...Nor, because they're too busy, do they see the real reason they believe what they claim to.

However, I've found that when I behave in a likable way, most of the passive-aggressive stuff disappears. Be a good boy and it'll stop.

It's all Aikido.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I see. You're only passive-aggressive if the other guy is a bad boy. It's not even your fault or responsibility, even. This is perfect "Aiki-Speak", in my opinion, Jean, and you have done much to make the case.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

How sorry. Get a life.

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Ooh...I guess he showed you...

And now, I guess you showed him! :freaky: (altho, I think, he DOES have a point, Jean...)

But hey! Don't pass ME that tar-brush: My dogi's plenty tarred enough, as it is... :yuck: ;)

(someone please, please PM me the Japanese translation to "I don't care who started it: behave!" willya? I'd ask Sensei, but I'm afraid she'd get a little miffed... :) )

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Another Bon Mot! I feel blessed. :)

Jean..... do you know ANYTHING about the 'one point' or how it applies to Aikido, etc.? Even a vague idea? Wouldn't you like to show that you actually know something of interest to the discussion, instead of just being judgemental about others' character flaws, real or imagined??? ;)

Mike

Re: Going back to an earlier post...
 

All I've learned is that we can replace ground strength, ground path vector/ whatever, with something like "pressure in the anus area".
:eek:

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

After a few years of hearing it mentioned I decided to practice breathing to the one point area. It probably took me about 6 months before I felt something that is more than just imagination but I do feel something there. Now I'm just trying to work out what to do with it.

In my case I just had to try it out for myself and see if anything happened because my teachers were pretty elusive and/or very esoteric about it. I've often been in dojos where even if self-exploration is not actively discouraged it is neutralized in the sense that student's own doubts are allowed to stop them from progressing in certain areas. If we have teachers or people that we trust telling us to breathe into the one point and it will begin to form over time then we'd probably just do it and trust that it would happen. In time we could experience it for ourselves and those initial doubts would diminish - but if we never push through those initial doubts in the first place then we'll never really know for ourselves.

A lot of things have been glossed over in my own training that I'm going back to now. I remember things that I heard mentioned briefly on a forum like this or elsewhere and think "man, if I just put in a bit of regular practice in that - then I would know either way now". Worst case scenario I waste my time but dispel my confusion. Best case scenario I actually get some new skills.

Re: Going back to an earlier post...
 

No, one thing augments the other. Ask your teacher to explain it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

"Actively discouraged" and "neutralized" are pretty accurate. Like the comment to "talk about beer" earlier on.

Of course you need to do more than just "breathe to the dantien". You have to breathe with the idea of strengthening the area inside and out, gently, over a long period of time. But I think that basically you're putting your finger on the problem... many of the "teachers" will actively discourage or neutralize anything that might diminish their stature, etc., since that can be far more important than progressing forward in something they don't know much about. No matter what "nice guys" people are, they tend to protect their turf. None of us is perfect, though. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

"None of us is perfect, though" surely you aren't including yourself in that one mike :eek: :D :D

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

I don't have any problem including myself in that group at all. One of the ways I've figured many things out over the years is by constantly saying, "So OK, what did I do wrong?" or "What's the facts that can come back to bite me in the butt?". It's the way I work.... *assuming* I am doing something wrong and trying to catch it before it gets out of hand. It's why I never became a martial arts teacher. Not only did I find a lot of things I was doing wrong, I STILL find a lot of things that I'm doing wrong. If there's anything valuable I can tell people, it not's things they can do... it's the things they should avoid doing, because I've already been there.

You?


Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Boy you have a real knack for taking all the fun out of a joke. :(

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

Well, sometimes. I was in a conversation one time with a bunch of Chinese who were martial arts teachers. One of them noted that most real martial artists constantly think like engineers... while commenting that most western martial artists tend to be more like Liberal Arts majors. If there's going to be any progress in the Ki/Kokyu things in Aikido and other Arts (in the West, particularly), the trick will be to convince people to think more critically and clinically about how certain things are done. Many westerners hear an Asian speak with poor English and mangled descriptions and they don't understand that in his own language and terms, the man is more of an engineer than a "Taoist Sage".

;)

Mike

Re: Dan and Mike's Thread
 

So because you ripped the fun out of a joke you are a real martial artist? hmm i have this handfull of magic beans, and i remember that i read in a book that if i plant them a mighty bean-stalk will grow and i can get a goose that lays golden eggs. *rushes off to get a spade*....... now we wait. Does that make me a real fairytale hero???