Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2
Well, you can find such a skeletal lineup configuration in olympic weight lifting and women carrying loads on the head in the developing world. I guess it works well if the circumstances are right for it.
But it's not a very stable configuration. As soon as the force line moves outside the lineup of the bones, the whole thing falls apart. So in a more dynamic situation, like a martial encounter, it's less useful I think. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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I haven't heard you explain how 'internal' resists a push any differently than modern athletics would. Yet, you're sure that it is different...:) |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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If you want to talk about physicality in old age, Ueshiba has some stiff competition. Jack Lalanne 1984 Age 70: Handcuffed, shackled and fighting strong winds and currents, towed 70 boats with 70 people from the Queen's Way Bridge in the Long Beach Harbor to the Queen Mary, 1 ˝ miles. Ueshiba wasn't competing at anything into old age. He was teaching martial arts, and as he got latter in life, he wasn't actively doing lots of that. So if we compare him to his peers, there are lot's of martial artists like him. If we compare him to top level athletes like Jack Lalanne, who were interested in physical activity late in life, he's coming up short. Comparisons are interesting things. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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Best, Chris |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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It's funny, because to me, it's not a question of which is better. It's a question of what else is there? If you're not using skeletal structure to aid your muscles, you're using muscle alone. Does anyone think it's easier to only use your muscles?
If there is anything else to use besides bones, connective tissue and muscle, what is it? It's not like we have much choice here.... |
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Martially its better to not have force on force on the same angle unless you can generate more than the other guy. As for athletics, it is not my experience that most people can innately do a ground path. Sure they can do it once they are shown, but that isn't their initial reaction. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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Anyway, it's not really relevant to me. In my opinion, this ability to sustain a load is about being in a state where you don't align for a load from a specific direction. With push tests, uke can push on different parts of my body while I should not have to change anything. I try to be in a state where it does not matter where the push comes from, I'm just more stable when I'm "on", than when I'm "off". My stability is different from different directions, because in some directions, body alignment happens to contribute to my stability, but IMO that's not what's being tested. What's being tested is the development of that which does not rely on aligning my body to the direction of the force. Ideally, I would develop that other thing to a point that the contribution of body alignment is more or less inconsequential. |
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But Dan also convinced me that you need it to go further. Can one really achieve the bold part without this ability if the opponent does not cooperate? |
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Even if they person tries pushing harder or leans on you at that point, it just makes it even worse for them. |
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In the following picture, imagine someone has gotten you to a compromised position where structure is not going to help. Some might recognize this from Forrest Chang's SJT video. Can you counter it without resetting? Obviously while resetting, your opponent can still apply force and make it worse for you. If you know how to move the body in an IS matter, you don't need to reset. |
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Ted Williams once said something to the effect that hitting a baseball was the hardest thing to do in sports. When the ball leaves the pitchers hand it has to travel roughly 55 feet to reach the plate. The batter has less than 1/2 second to decide whether or not to swing at a 100 mph fastball. Add to that the fact that the pitcher has a variety of pitches at his disposal and there's an awful lot of information for the batter to process in that less than 1/2 second. So what differentiates an exceptional batter from an average batter? Assuming they're roughly comparable in physical development, mind. The exceptional batter will have a higher degree of mind/body coordination than the average batter. Integration of mind and body is an important factor effecting performance in all human activities. And Aikido is no exception. When practicing push tests we see a noticeable performance difference when the student consciously lets the mind waver, loosening coordination of mind and body, as opposed to when the student "centers" the mind and closely coordinates mind and body. Ron |
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Floating someone requires you to get under them. My thinking was that the ability to resist a push internally greatly enhances the ability to float someone who is not cooperating. |
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I'll cite this post from RSF from Robert John: Quote:
You will also notice that people who train to get their feet very heavy (which by the way implies more than just feeling pressure on the soles), start to have very wirey feet (from tendons) and "thick" feet. This isn't the best aun statue picture, but you can sort of see the feet in this one. Next time I hit up the Smithsonain, I will try and get a better photo of the aun statue at the Freer/Sackler gallery. While I think we all would agree that training for different sports leads to different body shapes (swimmers don't look like 100m sprinters), IS training leads to different body development that for most doesn't look like, exhibit nor produce the same characteristics when used as a typical athletic body. |
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But did you simply bypass my main question, or are you saying, modern athletics provides us with everything we need, so we don't need the example of Ueshiba any more in aikido, or we don't need internal training or what? Not sure. |
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I guess I glossed over that question because I didn't understand it. I believe Ueshiba was a guy who used his body a lot. I also believe he had a pretty good working knowledge of how to use it. I don't think he was physically doing anything that many of his peers couldn't also do. I think what Ueshiba was onto wasn't so much about the body, but more about the mind. I think he saw problems of conflict differently than most people do. I know studying Aikido has made me look at conflict much differently than I did before studying it. I do believe since Ueshiba's time we understand the body much better. So I don't think he was showing us the future in his movements. I do believe he's an important figure in Aikido, if not the single most important figure. I think the impressive thing about him was not the way he used his body, but the way he looked at the situation. |
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As for NFL linebackers, we totally see them stiff-arming the opposing linebackers all the time. Yeah, right. If Chris H's diagrams can't even explain straight athletics, why are we still talking about them? |
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This is my whole problem with not using skeletal alignment with the ground, and still use less muscle. You can't do both at the same time. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
Well, you did, when you drew the diagram and started treating "efficiency" and "using less muscle" as the goal, and decided that fascia and tendons couldn't play any part in using less muscle (since they aren't accounted for in your diagram).
There's no part of this discussion that makes sense. |
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I also said that good athletics uses skeletal alignment. I also said, a number of times that it takes more muscular force to resist a push if you are not aligning the bones of the body. I also said that the better the alignment the less the muscles will have to contract. If using less muscle is not a goal of internal, then maybe alignment is not not your answer. If you do it in another way I would love to hear about it. Don't put words in my mouth Hugh. |
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It's fine if we think each other are wrong, but you aren't going to get mechanistic discussion when one group thinks there is something that the other group thinks is fantasy. We know it isn't fully described scientifically yet. It's just that we don't all need to wait for that in order to train! So regarding the "what is it" question. There is a name for this. "Kokyu ryoku." It's something that appeared to be of primary importance to O-sensei. It has to do with the tanden controlling a surrounding body that is "filled" with ki. Non-scientific words like "ki" and "fill" and "center" get used because we don't have physiological data. It all hinges on the idea that one can control ki with the intent, ki can control force (like things like rubber bands, ropes and pulleys can), and the center can manipulate a body whose ki is under load. Oh, and of course, the ki can get stronger if it is exercised. (This can be done with or without a lot of muscular activation-- i.e. ki use can be separated from muscle use) [edit: ps, the question of how the intent controls the "ki" is of course not physiologically resolved. Does the intent make some muscle activate and pull on connective tissue? Maybe. So is it "just muscle?" The Peter Ralston motion-abort demonstration when studied at its extreme really suggests that if muscles are the mechanism by which intent controls ki, this is very different from what happens after. The intent for reaching for a coffee cup causes different things to happen in the body than does the actual reaching which happens after. They may both involve muscle but they are 2 different processes.] |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
Hey Jonathan,
I get it. I tell you what, I'll leave all you guys alone. You're doing your thing, and here I am messing with your fun. Sorry. |
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It's a shame that you seem intent on disproving at a distance and from your point of preconception what you, by your own admission, cannot explain. |
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When I stated in another post that Dan Harden can resist changing forces from a non-cooperative training partner without the need for conscious adjustment to those forces, there was zero metaphor in that statement. No doubt muscles are in play (Dan has repeatedly publicly cited the psoas, for example). If adjustments in his body are happening, they are virtually autonomic; and even then you can't sense or see muscles firing. But none of the athletes I know train like this, and none of the folks with athletic training backgrounds I know who've trained with Dan can relate it to anything in athletics. Now, many others here can back this up because they've experienced it first hand as well. These are rational, and in many cases formally skeptical people. But we can't adequately explain it to your satisfaction, so there's only one option left: go get a sampling and conduct the requisite analysis by meeting Dan or a reasonable analogue. The effort to form a western-centric model and rationale is fruitless without you working off the same data points as those with whom you're trying to engage in said effort. |
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