Re: Ki and Technique...
 

BTW, Lao Tse is fourth century - BC - lest someone misinterpret my omission on that point.

Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

That was the EXPRESS purpose of the nineteenth century Kokugaku (National Studies) movement to remove or diminish all foreign elements, in service of the imperial cult and the resulting ascendancy of State Shinto. Consequently, the common Japanese soldier of the thirties, educated in state schools, had little knowledge of extent of the cultural debt owed to the Chinese. And we all know where that led.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hmmm, yes, that was the first thing that occurred to me (not). ;)

Thank you for the post...that was a very clear presentation. One interesting thing about John Steven's presentations in this area is that he often plays up these commonalities in a very general way. I think he would get less criticism for this if he laid out some of the back ground as you have just done. I believe he considers his approach as making these topics 'accessible' to occidentals.

Best,
Ron

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Thanks... I knew there had to be *something* like that. And unfortunately, everyone who learns from Japanese sources nowadays is subject to furthering that impression of Japan's nationalistic history because that's what they learn. Now I'm curious to see what really happened in a couple of isolated cases (e.g., Chen Gempin) befor the Kokugaku got hold of them.

Regards,

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I'm hardly an expert, but I'm curious what the basis for that position is, considering the level of devotion Osensei seems to have had for Omoto-kyo and Shinto mythology in general. Based strictly on that it would seem to me the Omoto-kyo form of Shinto would be better described as his "primary" dogma. I wonder too, how much influence Confucianism has on Shinto and if that is what some people might be seeing. I know Buddhism has had quite a bit of influence and there are very similar concepts such as that of yin and yang which pervade much of eastern philosophy. Are similar inclusions perhaps why some say what you said regarding that hierarchy of paradigms?
Take care!
Matt

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hierarchy, yep. That is the name of the game in Japanese history.
Confucianism, or more properly Neo-Confucianism of the Ming, was very influential on Shinto during the Tokugawa period. A similar pattern obtained earlier. From about 1200-1600 (the Kamakura/Muromachi period) the succesive Shogunates promoted Ryobu Shinto as a means of regularizing Shinto practice within Buddhist monastic institutions, and thus registering all people with a Buddhist temple or monastery. This identified potential rival sources of power and was used to control the population. The monasteries, particularly the mountain monasteries, then became quite independent as sources of power in their own right. They played near king-maker roles by the time of the Warring States period, just prior to the Edo (Tokugawa period). Nobunaga destroyed all the yamabushi monasteries and he, and Ieyasu Tokuagawa then imported Neo-Confucianism (which had already in some respects syncretized many Buddhist elements within it).

NeoConfucianism then formed an institutional bulwark of the Tokugawa shogunate in a centralized manner, as distinguished from the more disperesed institutional framework among the Buddhist temple, which had fulfilled the same role under the Ryobu Shinto system. Shinto shrines then adopted a role of ritual support of Neo-Confucian ideals, all controlled from the Edo Shogunate in a tightly disciplined scheme of appointments. This continued until the restoration of the Meiji Emperor. State Shinto was then cultivated to repalce the Neo-Confucian order so strongly associated with the Shogunate, and the Kokugaku (national studies) attempted to "purify Shinto of these "foreign elements." An impossible task, as you will surely imagine.

O-Sensei was raised in this period and reacted strongly against it by experimienting with the Omoto community, itself a reactive hodge-podge (along with the other "new religions, viciously suppressed by the Japanese state) which presented blenderized ideas generally opposed to and subversive of the pyramidal ideology of the Emperor cult.

The result, in many areas of the Kokugaku endeavor, is very much the ideological dog's breakfast that is seen in the same period in European political thought. That simultaneously gave us the national imperialism, the invented German king, the invented Italian king, and in a similar pattern of adhoc ideological reactions, anarchism, socialism, communism, and, eventually fascism and Nazism.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I think "blenderized" is a good term for what I notice in the religion-related maunderings of Ueshiba's writings. There is a very noticeable admixture of Shinto and Buddhism along with Chinese cosmology.

Speaking of "blenderized", I wonder how strong the translations of "peace and love" would have been if more of the translators had understood the "harmony with/of the universe" idea in the context of Chinese cosmology which stresses the importance of a Way of no conflict with the physical laws?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Don't get me wrong. Omoto was simply a less discriminating syncretic effort than that of Neo-Confuciuanism, Ryobu Shinto or others (even Kokugaku). Its emphasis was on heart not logic. That syncretic tendency underlies much of spiritual thinking in the East, and most strongly in Japan.
Our analytic preferences pervade our theology to a fault as the synthetic preferences of the Japanese pervade theirs.

As to "peace/love," try reading "A Terrible Love of War" by James Hillman (2004). I don't agree with everything he concludees at the end, but his observations of the relationship between love and ferocious martial spirit are profound -- as well as disturbing.
He does much to make O-Sensei's point (Budo = Love) much more comprehensible to typical Western sensibility, without ever even mentioning aikido.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Erick,

Can you say more about Hillman and his conclusions? Sounds fascinating.

Cheers,
Stephen

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Basically, Hillman begins by observing that war is a universal condition of human history at all times and in all societies, without substanital exception. He then examines the reasons for this, and comes to some startling conclusions. War exists in human society because
1) war is sublime
(and therefore simultenously horrific and exhilirating beyond normaitve measures of experience)

2) war is inhuman
(and therefore not capable of human(e) controls) and

3) war is religion
(therefore commanding commitment of resources (personal and collective) beyond merely rational calculations).

War seduces and entices those minds suited to it, and maims those unsuited minds that are exposed to it. Those who learn to bear the experience of war, more often feel love for those who endure it with them in ways beyond their capacity to adequately express, and in ways that seem to surpass in depth and intensity all other experiences of loving.
Hillman suggests therefore that love is at the root of war, and that love's protective impulse, individually and collectively, is among the most powerful (and non-rational) of human motivators, precisely because if its proven ability to motivate people to act in the face of and in spite of any ordinary limits imposed by experiences of extreme horror and abject terror.

He then begins his conclusion by observing that aesthetics controls martial spirit (spit, polish, and all that finery) as it does loving endeavors ( yet more proof of the close affiliation) He presents good arguments for this. He suggests that martial virtue and the spirit of fierce and rash love that is present within war can also aid us in stopping a conflict from starting in ways that rationality and mere peace-talk can never do. He presents an ancient Greek Hymn to Ares and analyzes its purposes to this end, which is fascinating as well.
All in all, I find much that resonates in Hillman's observations with my study of Aikido, in both technique and as a more general philosophical approach. It is mightily compelling that when considered from a purely Western perspective the same themes find their way to the surface.
The aspect of gracefulness and beauty inherent in our movements does help to control and channel our agression into paths that protect rather than injure. Ugly technique is by an large bad technique.
The awakening of the instinctive impulse to [Attack!!] (irimi) in the face of danger is at the heart of every aikido technique. This distinguishes the warrior mind that is not harmed by exposure ot battle, from the non-warrior mind that is wekedn and debilitated by violence which breaks their will and calm.

And yet in this same way, by allowing our will (to attack) to be bent or broken the result is turned (tenkan) from harm. By then completely accepting the attack we have first entered into with fierce determination, we bring our enemy, our partner, within the bounds of the same spirit of protection that impels us to respond aggressively to the attack in the first place.

Again, I highly recommend it.
Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

thanks for that excellent precise Erick, I for one, will certainly try to get hold of a copy. I particularly liked:
regards,
Mark

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

There was a topic on kiai, way back when...

Let me see if I could find it...

Ah yes...

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...26&postcount=6

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=32


Regards,

K'

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Jakarta was lovely my last time there, about ten years ago. Imagine my surprise to walk into the Twenty-Third Annual Highland Games of Jakarta. God love the Scots! I staggered away some hours later a bit worse for wear, but better than the pints I had bested. Of course, I did not fare any better with the Brits and Ozzies during the Hash run in Surabaya either, but that's another story.

Kiai was best described to me as a sudden crystalization of mind/body (seika no itten) into a single working unit moving from hara. The point about breath in the links provided is well-taken. Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Unless your body, and particularly the dantien area, is trained in the correct way, the pressure addition of kiai won't do much good (in the way it's intended to do).

I'm reminded of a story where a historic Tai Chi figure did a demonstration by lying on the ground, putting some millet seeds into his navel, and then snapped them up into the air with a sudden exhale and snap of his stomach. This ability comes from breathing correctly (reverse breathing), storing and releasing power, etc., over a long period of time. However, there is a "tai chi teacher" I know that has his students put a penny on their stomach and see who can snap it highest.... misunderstanding what the original demonstration was about. So while this teacher has focused his mind on the idea of an object being snapped into the air (totally missing the extensive training of the rest of the body to get there), doing "kiai" noises without understanding the training and pressure, etc., considerations of the body is the same "miss the point". IMO.

FWIW

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Erick Mead wrote : "Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause."

I completely agree.
I find that during training, if all seems to come together
just right, you are 'in the zone', you move faster and
understand what is happening while your opponent seems
slow and confused. At times like these I find myself making
some sound, i.e. Kiai, of sorts.
Now, maybe my making a sound is a tacky subconscious
acting-out of filmic special effects, maybe it is a real effect
of doing excellent stuff.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Maybe if you've only been practicing for a while, it would be I think the films would be the influence.
maybey if you've been practicing for a long time it would be excellent stuff. ;)

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

For those who have not done it routinely, an excellent kiai practice is the fundatori/furatama exercise. The exercise is closely related to kotodama practice, and also has relation to sword-work and the "Ey!" "Yah!" "Toh!" of movement. I have been in number of aikikai dojos that do not do it routinely, so it may be unfamiliar to some.

It looks a little silly, a bunch of people shifting forward and back in time with one another and thrusting their arms forward ("EY !") and back ("SA !") like rowing a boat. But it really does work. The more people doing it, the less self-conscious you are, and the more you can work on blending focus, which is the heart of kiai, and of aiki.

If you have ever been to Japan and seen the kinds of, shall we say, - idiosyncratic - mass exercises that have been done in the corporate world, fundatori/furatama is fairly nondescript. For an howling example of the uncritical acceptance of this kind of thing in Japan: see this clip recently sent by a buddy of mine, which is a recruiting commercial (swear to God) for the JMSDF (Japan's not-a-Navy) :freaky:
http://www.jda.go.jp/JMSDF/info/event/cm_p/16cm.html

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

The clip you provide Erick looks like it would play well in certain clubs in San fransisco! :D

We do not train with kiai as a systematic part of our aikido, so what you speak of is unfamiliar to me. What I do find though is that if I am thrown powerfully with ki, then a kiai type sound comes out of me sponaniously, if I am thrown without, no sound comes out. I don't know what the explanation to this is, it's just the way it happens. :)

regards,
Mark

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hey Mark, that happened to my mate on Sunday.
I threw him powerfully, and a spontaneous "JESUS!" came out of him.
(His words, not mine)
It was cool.