Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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But to me it's a matter of degree from good to great. I mean, if a great athlete would have great IP, a good athlete would have good IP. Quote:
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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btw, i don't know about other folks, but i never claim to be a gentleman. it's actually the opposite. i kinda prefer the barbarian meself, since the blood of genghis khan flow in me somewhere. every now and then i have the urge to take my horde (two boys) on a plunder and pillage trip to the local grocery. and every time my wife would yell at me to get eggs, milk and bread. i don't understand it. what can you do with eggs, milk and bread? ok, maybe french toasts. :) |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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To give an example, you don't have to just see Chen Xiao Wang, at a seminar to feel this stuff. Chen Bing and other Chens will show you similiar stuff, they just might not be as "pure" in the motion which isn't a bad thing since they probably know way more than anyone doing this as an amateur. If anyone out there goes to a Chen tai chi seminar, go to one on silk reeling, not the forms based ones, unless you are more concerned with choreography. |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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Ever read Plato's view on this? The choice here is 1. to see IP / IS as a specific way of training that has no relationship with Taoist martial arts like T'ai Chi Chuan or that at most uses a part of it, like a structure to get the notion of IP / IS across. I have no problem with this whatsoever - but it does raises questions on what the nature of this IP / IS is. The answer "it has to be felt" has no scientific value whatsoever. Someone must be able to show some scientific equation or some theory with empirical evidence. Otherwise IP / IS might just well be something like phlogiston or a new sort of Mesmerism. Without a basic theory of what IP / IS is I find it presumptuous to equate IP / IS with Aiki. 2. IP /IS is the same as neijin. Neijin is a Taoist concept. With it comes the whole Chinese Taoist philosophy - if you want to understand neijin, then you will have to get some basic understanding of Taoism. It has nothing to do with one's own opinion or preference. Just to add to this; Buddhism has criticized this Taoist concept, so to get a more complete understanding it would help if you also get a basic understanding of Buddhism. If we are talking about Neijin then the concept is fairly easy to understand as there is a solid theory that we can refer to. And any discussion about neijin should therefor offer no problem. Tom |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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I will even go further - I know of some who understand it but refuse to teach it. Tom |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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Anyway, there have been quite a few definitions of IP/IS over the years, if you search through the forums. There's also a pretty good summary at http://www.internalartsinternational...-internal-art/ For "It has to be felt" - well, it's pretty had to teach anything in a detailed manner by correspondance - try doing it with conventional Aikido and you run into the same problems. The more subtle and complex the skill the harder it is. Best, Chris |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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When you say that IP / IS is only a body, physical thing you do realize that you are getting your feet into a Cartesian mudpool ? Modern top-athletes are moving away from this kind of thinking. And so are surgeons and biologists. The human body is not a machine. You cannot separate the body from the mind / spirit. Science has moved on since Descartes. I get your frustration - but don't you think that others on this same forum are just as frustrated with IP /IS proponents as they make a lot of claims without being able to back it up with anything else but "it has to be felt" ? Or how about the IS / IP proponents that dismiss almost every teacher in the world because they do not have it or show it? Names have been mentioned or hinted at that had a major influence on the spreading of Aikido - but now we are suppose to accept that they did not understand it or did not even learn anything from the founder? And this comes from people who have never seen or met the founder, let alone train with him ! How frustrating do you think that is? I could easily go on and on about the frustrations that are at times - but too often - created by the IP / IS proponents. It drives good people away from what otherwise could be an interesting topic to discuss. And I think it is possible to discuss IS / IP. Unless IP /IS is something from a sci-fi novel. But if it is human, then it should be possible for other humans to recognize it from their own experiences. They may not fully understand it, but they may have gotten a glimpse of it. As an Aikido teacher I find it important that when this happens I assure my students that they indeed got a glimpse of or even more. I do not understand why IS / IP proponents then on this forum tell people they understand nothing and that the IP / IS proponents are the only ones with expertise. It is cult-like behavior. It is not about claiming to be a gentleman - it comes with the suit. Btw, Gengis Khan stayed in his cozy tent with a bunch of half dressed ladies while his men were doing all the bloody work. I on the other hand have the blood of Grutte Pier running through my veins - now that was a warrior! All the best, Tom |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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I've spoken to many, many students of the founder who stated themselves in no uncertain terms that they didn't understand what was going on or how the founder did what he did, take that as you will. It's also documented in many public written interviews. I know that it's frusturating, but a large part of the discussion, like Stan Pranin's Iwama discussion, is predicated on the argument that something went wrong in the transmission. Agree or not, it's hard to deny the fact that a strong argument for that can and has been made - Stan Pranin's body of work alone supports it. Frustrated because someone hasn't met the founder? Sounds like you're making a "it has to be felt" argument to me. :) Of course, the people becoming "frustrated" haven't met or trained with the founder either, so they have no more basis for their opinion than anybody else, if you follow that argument. Best, Chris |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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So it proves my point - it can be discussed. It can also be described, just as we can describe just about anything in this world. It proves another point - several proponents of IP / IS do not seem to know these basic concepts (as mentioned on the website) or are even against it. Some have even expressed this clearly in this very thread. At the same time they claim knowledge that nobody else has. That is a contradiction too. If someone does not understand these basic concepts then a more modest attitude would be more fitting. Tom |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
I think a summery of the argument is something like this.
"IP" crowd- Without feeling/experiencing something, that you have no previous experience with, you cannot hope to understand it. Non-"IP", or "IP" curious crowd- There is no reason to believe that there is something to feel/experience, if you can't give an explanation/proof that there is a something at all. Let's agree that both of these arguments are fair, because they are. Then let's accept a fact, because of the nature of Aikiweb/the internet, we can never feel/experience what is described as "IP" through this media. So for a fact, we are limited to explanations/examinable proof of the phenomenon. This limits us to formulas, video's, do at home tests/experiments etc. If you can't experience it directly (which is the case here on Aikiweb), and you want to talk about it, we will have to try other methods. Otherwise we're stuck with- "it's true. no it's not". I personally would love to talk about explanations, proofs, and things we can examine. That is what is totally possible here on Aikiweb, and since this is the place we all are right now, shouldn't we be looking to do that? |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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Like anything else, there's a point beyond which that becomes impractical at a distance, especially if the two people in the discussion don't have a common context for discussion. I don't see how that link proves that anybody understands or doesn't understand anything, you'll have to be more specific. Best, Chris |
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Discussing Mexican food only goes so far, at some point you've got to eat the Taco. Best, Chris |
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this almost as good as light bulb joke. |
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Yo quiero Taco Bulb. How Many Dogs Does It Take to Change a Light Bulb?
Best, Chris |
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Best, Chris |
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Best, Chris |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
It's more like, I've had taco's, make taco's and someone else is describing another kind of taco I don't believe I've ever had. I'm asking what ingredients you use, and all you answer with is," just eat the taco". As soon as I can get to the restaurant, I'll have one. Until then I'd still like to know about the ingredients, and methods of preparation. If you don't want to talk to me about that, cool.
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
Well then, I would say less then half of "we" (the people reading Aikiweb right now) have experienced it. So why even bother to bring it up here? Why not start IPweb and let only people who have had hands on experience join, and then you can all talk there?
I'm not saying to do that, but it's kind of how it feels. Again, if you don't want to talk to me about it, then cool. |
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
Yeah, because I want to talk about it. So, if you don't, because I don't have the necessary information to talk with you about it. Then maybe some of the other members will.
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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I did notice that thread before, but did not follow it as I did not like the discussion. Since you asked I have read the posts. Where do you want to go to with this? I never questioned anyones frame of reference. I try to address the issue, the argumentation and not the person. I expect the same attitude from everyone else. I do not ask someone's curriculum vitae on Aikido or any of the other martial arts and I expect the same from others. I am quite sure that the IP / IS proponents have a tremendous amount of experience. But did you somehow get the impression that I was a beginner? Suppose I would make a list of my experiences, the teachers that I have trained with, the places where I have studied, the many special things that I have experienced. Do you think that you then should at least pause and ponder when I say something? Well, I don't. Pause, ponder and consider might be wise advice for my students in the dojo. But here on the internet it is about argumentation. If my argumentation is wrong then I want people to come up with solid counter-arguments. And if and where I can I will try to do the same. Tom |
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
I would like to talk about why anyone thinks something different then normal athletic activity is going on.
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1. We don't want to talk about your teacher. I admire him, respect him, and given the chance, will train with him. But I do NOT want to drag his name into these conversations which is nearly impossible since you set yourself up as an authority via him. That kills a lot of the conversation. 2. There are hundreds of different Chinese martial arts out there. Even within the Chen lineages, teachers argue about internal methods and IP. Then it gets worse when you start tossing in other kinds of Chinese arts like bagua, xingyi, etc. Training in one lineage and then claiming knowledge of all Chinese internal arts is killing the conversation right from the beginning. When people try to tell you that IP/aiki is different, you go back to either 1 or 2. Which then, pretty much, kills any chance at moving the conversation forward. Have you noticed how many people have bowed out already in the multiple threads you've participated in? They were trying to get you to open your mind. We all were. Several years, many threads later and nothing has changed ... Mark |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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About three years ago I was fortunate enough to get the chance to meet and get tossed around a bit by a man named Kimura Tatsuo. For those not familiar, he was Sagawa Yukiyoshi's student, and wrote a book on Sagawa after the latter's death. Kimura applied something to me that I had never before felt, and I'll try to describe it. I would stand in any position I wished, and he would place his hands lightly on mine. He told me to resist however strongly I wished, and then he exhaled and I became instantly and startlingly off-balance, and then I was thrown. I'll try to make this as clear as I can via text, which is difficult; throughout the above process, I never felt him actually push me at all. Ever. Not one little tiny bit. There was zero change in the incoming force that I could detect. Nothing. Nada. It felt precisely as I already described. His hands lightly on mine, nothing changed, he exhaled, nothing changed, I was sharply and immediately off-balance, and then thrown. It felt a bit like an unseen hand was pulling my spine up and behind me from somewhere behind me. For me, that was it. There was no going back after that. Once I'd seen and felt what was possible, everything about my training changed. Everything I wanted, everything I had thought aiki to be had been changed. Kimura had not done any nifty sweeping tenkan movements, hadn't thrown some half-assed atemi to my face to make me react so he could do something, hadn't relied on timing his movement to mine. He had simply done aiki, whatever that meant. And I wanted it. I still do. However, Kimura Tatsuo is not accepting new students currently. That's his business. All I could do is find others who possessed similar skills and try to attend their seminars, and that's exactly what I did and continue to do. For me, that first step was really the most crucial. If I had never laid hands on anyone who could do it, I'd be skeptical as well. I understand people's skepticism, I really do. I had it myself once upon a time. But once I felt it, I could see without any doubt that it is indeed something different. It's not waza. It's not even good waza. It's not athleticism. It's not being stronger, or faster, or better at timing. It's just, in a word...aiki. It's a thing. Really and truly. Now, the easy thing for people to do is to write off my opinion as being that of a stupid, doddering old man who wouldn't know the difference, and that's fine. You can believe what you like. But I know the truth. It's real, it's a thing, and it's largely missing from most folks' training regimens. And I for one am working to correct that in mine. |
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
Hey Brett,
Thank you for taking the time to share your story. The kind of thing you described is what turned lot's of us onto martial arts. As a student, often times your teacher will do something that seems well beyond explanation, and that is what drives us to train. I can remember a time that one of my teachers threw me against the mat so hard that I literally bounced, that was unbelievable. It can be impressive. Now as a teacher myself, I sometimes do something that will blow one of my students away, they will just keep asking me what it is that I did. These mysteries can be very important. And I would not want to take them away from anyone. However, whatever made these mysterious/amazing things happen, has an explanation, I would like to talk about the explanations, even if you're not right, even if no body knows what right is. I would like to talk about why you believe something does or does not exist. |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
Also,
I only sited my training as a reference as to what I've been exposed to. I would love to talk about these issues without concern as to a persons pedigree. I'm sorry if I made anyone feel excluded. |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
I think Chris has a point, if you are not familiar with something it is overwhelming that first time, think of OODA loop and so on. That is an advantage as long as the other guy doesnt know whats going on. This is important in martial arts. Perhaps the only reason for secrecy.
I've had the luck of meeting a lot of the people in these disussions including Chris Hein. We're not all talking about the same things, though the topic is broad enough to encompass all these point of views. It s is not a waste of time to discuss these matters, and you have to admit there are very good questions that cant be summarily dismissed with a you'd have to be there. There are undoubtedly more depths than all of us are aware of here. That's cool isn't it? |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
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with sport science and medicine, we knew how to make folks stronger, faster, more endurance, and so on. we can produce incredible atheletes that are almost superhuman. however, there are so many things we still don't know about. just look at the topics on fascia which only got a bit of attention recent years and aren't readily accepted by sport science yet. yet, the ancients knew and used it. take accupunture, for example, the ancients had map out the human neural network and came up a way to reprogram it by sticking needles at various network nodes, sort of sticking the needle =1, not sticking the needle = 0 or vice versa; sort of binary code reprograming a computer network. even today medical science, we still have no clue on how to deal with the human neural network. but medical science knew how signals transmit though the neural network, what chemical would affect it, and so on. ok. i'll stop rambling now. please resume the discussion on IP. |
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
Below are just a few things that came to mind as I have been reading this thread as well as a couple of others lately.
"There are people who, instead of listening to what is being said to them, are already listening to what they are going to say themselves." — Albert Guinon "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply." ― Stephen R. Covey "It's a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn't want to hear." — Dick Cavett "There's a big difference between showing interest and really taking interest." — Michael P. Nichols "Effective listeners remember that "words have no meaning - people have meaning." The assignment of meaning to a term is an internal process; meaning comes from inside us. And although our experiences, knowledge and attitudes differ, we often misinterpret each other's messages while under the illusion that a common understanding has been achieved." — Larry Barker Greg |
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
All this talk of tacos got me hungry. After years of knowing only Taco Bell and thinking I knew what a taco was I found myself in Mexico and had a taco ... exactly the same it was not in the slightest but it was sort of ...
I spent years reading here and there and when I actually felt someone who could do it ... ohhhh, that's what that mean't. Then when I could actually do it, cool. Then I could actually teach some else how to do it ... OK, boyo, that is step one - now onto the next 1000 steps. Recall this progression? Obsessed with pronography but that first actual experience is way different. Then you meet that one person that takes you way out of you comfort zone with all that freaky stuff - at first it is not comfortable but eventually it's really nice. Then you work together taking your time really working on paying attention and reaching levels you never knew existed. Now when one of you says "strawberries" and the other person knowingly and playfully replies "oh, yeah baby" and those around you are slightly uncomfortable knowing some thing really special and personal just happened and they say "I like strawberries" without understanding they have no idea what you guys are talking about. And the all to real knowing looks you exchange and then place your focus and attention on them and say together "Ooooh, strawberries" and they get all shivery and nervous. Yeah, kind of like that. |
Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?
hey. come on now. There's kids here.
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