Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Sure, lanquage changes, the meaning of words changes. Nowadays anything can mean anything. If I want to shut down my old computer I have to press "start".
We may find this unavoidable or even acceptable. However, when we have a conversation, especially in writing, email, etc., it is important that we try to give meaning to the words that we use. If we would have a conversation about horses, then we may very well use different words like equus or cheval, but in order to progress in our conversation it is important that each of us has the same animal in mind.

If we use the words "manipulate" and "control" then in general these words have a negative sound to it. In a more philosophical sense there is a distinction that we can make between western thinking, that emphasizes control over our environment (and control over others things, including our own mind) and for instance Chinese Taoist or Japanese Shinto way of thinking that places more importance on going with nature instead of controlling nature.

Of course the intent matters most.
But no one can "read" intent without being face to face with another human being.
That makes it all the more important to try to use the appropriate words.

If someone wants to say "nurture" then that someone should not use words like "manipulate" or "control" . Or when he does and wants to give his words a different meaning, he should explain that beforehand.

Communication between human beings appears to be difficult enough - it would help if we would at least agree to the meaning of the words that we use.

Tom

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

The opposite of nurture is neglect
The opposite of manipulation and control is harmonie and a mutual bond - most people call it love.

Where does it say that I own an animal?

If I would have said that I have a wife, you would interpret that as "you OWN a woman"?

Tom

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Let me guess... you either don't have any children or they ride the short bus to school.

You used the word "my", as in my wolf, my horse. Did you reason with these animals, and of their own accord, they joined your family? Or do they stay with you because you feed them? Did you pay some money to someone else and now they are yours? If it was a hypothetical, fine, but the point still stands.

No, I'd say you entered into a legally binding, contractual obligation, with a woman.

Context matters,
Anthony

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Context matters, intent matters.

Is there actually a point that you are trying to make within the context of this thread?

For as far as I am concerned this is becoming a discussion that is drifting into nowhere-land.
As far as I understand it, manipulation and control seems important in your life. And you prefer to see manipulation and control as nurture.

I disagree with you.
Let us leave it at that and get back to original subject of this thread.

Tom

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

I follow the threads where they go... I originally started reading this thread because I was interested in the original post.

You brought up children and manipulation, and I followed it. [edit: or the objection to]

OK.

Evasion and retreat seem to be important in your life, and that is fine. For the record, I am not above "controlling and manipulating" in the effort of nurturing.

Regards,
Anthony

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Wow, that is really not called for. Not at all.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

I take the raising of children very seriously. Someone that claims children shouldn't be controlled or guided is an idiot (with respect to child rearing) and their children, should they have any, would reflect such a standpoint.

But you're correct, no one called for that.

Anthony

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Guiding, controlling and manipulating are similar, but they could convey a difference in intention.
Guiding could imply patient benevolence, controlling could imply impatience or indifference and manipulating could imply calculation (or worse).

I'm a father and I've been a high school teacher for some years. Guiding may be the ideal for a parent or a teacher, but I think that some controlling and manipulation is unavoidable in practice.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Jon - that is a very interesting thought I never had. Thanks for sharing- always appreciate your posts.
Cheers

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Not to go backwards but...

First, of course we manipulate the environment. We wear clothing, we build structures, we farm, we consolidate into social groups, we follow laws. If you do not do these things, then you are not a member of society (and that is not necessarily bad). You may argue that you believe the consequences to these actions are grave and you try to minimize your impact on your surroundings, but you allow these controls in your life.

Second, to possess animals here in the US and not control them is considered poor care at best. Of course, the thought of allowing a wolf to do as she pleases in an urban or suburban environment... We inherent the responsibility of those under our care. We are responsible for the actions of our children, animals, employees. And again, of course you control and manipulate others in the course of your day. Down South, we have a secret driving technique - if you make eye contact with another driver, you may cut them off. Stupid thing is, it works. The other driver sees your intention and accommodates for your [illegal] move in order to avoid a collision. You can any color car you want, as long as its red, blue, or yellow. Would you like to pay in cash or credit? Well, why not turnups? You can have any size Starbucks coffee as long as it is small, medium or large. Or, for you New Yorkers, you can now have as much soda as you like, but no more than 16 oz. at a time.

As an earlier response indicated, I am inclined to contest that people are susceptible to manipulation and control. Some have more personal responsibility and independence than others, but we all are susceptible. The psychology behind basic conditioning camps was intended to alter parts of soldiers to make them prepared and able to war. There is a guy here in the US, Cass Sunstein, a former Obama administrative official, who has several published pieces on societal (and governmental) progressive change. My favorite is "Nudge, Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness". He is not the primary author for this one, but it will change the way you think "that you aren't controlled by anything".

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

I looked up the following three words and came away amazed that we ever understand anything anyone writes.

Manipulate - 1. to move, operate, or handle something, especially a machine or mechanical parts
2. to work with data on a computer
3. to control or influence somebody or something in an ingenious or devious way
4. to change or present something in a way that is false but personally advantageous
5. to treat a part of the body, or to move a part such as a joint during examination, using the hands only

Control - 1. To exercise power or authority over something such as a business or nation
2. to work or operate something such as a vehicle or machine
3. to limit or restrict somebody or something, e.g. in expression, occurrence, or rate of increase
4. Finance to regulate the financial affairs of a business or other large organization
5. accounting to examine financial accounts and verify them as correct

Let - 1. to allow something to happen or somebody to do something
2. to give somebody permission to do something
3. used to express a suggestion, an offer, or an order
4. to allow or cause something to pass from one place to another
5. used to indicate indifference to what happens or what somebody does, even though it may be unpleasant
6. Environment to release or cause something to release water from a lagoon or pond by breaching a sandbar or other obstacle so that the water drains into a larger body such as the sea
7. to allow people to use land, rooms, or a building in return for rent
8. Ireland to utter something
9. Mathematics logic used to introduce an assumption or hypothesis

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

I own my wife and on a recent trip to egypt tried to sell her for fifty camels . Unfortunately couldnt close the deal .

Note to self . Must try harder

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

I agree and am just as amazed.

There are a lot of words that could be added to your list - we may never have a complete overview of all the possible meanings.
And they can differ greatly. For instance a magician uses manipulation to make his cards disappear and appear again right in front of our eyes, great fun to look at, great fun to do. On a more negative side there is something like genetic manipulation, where an alteration is being forced on a species.

We could argue that manipulation can therefore have positive and negative meaning. It may even be different per culture or language. Maybe americans see manipulation more as something positive. In my native language Dutch the general feeling is more negative, someone who tries to manipulate you is a cheat, it is someone who deliberately misguides another person or his company or the government to his own benefit.

Perhaps control is not per se a negative word. I remember watching a game where you had to cross a field on a bicycle, if you made it you would get a certain amount of money. Nobody managed to cross the field because everytime someone would steer to the left the bicycle would go to the right, steering to the right made the bicycle go to the left. In other words; they were out of control. Great fun to watch and nobody felt that there was anything wrong here in being "out of control".
But in a negative way control can also mean that someone is forcing his will upon someone else. It gets the meaning of forcing, overpowering, dominating. There is nothing positive there.

But understanding each other does not always have to do with the meaning of a word or the positive-negative value that we give these words. Often it is more about a willingness to understand, a willingness to listen.

I think that that is lacking here, in this part of the thread at least.

Also it does not help if people react to words that were not originally used; "nurturing", "guiding" (I am all in favor of nurturing and guiding), make derogatory and insulting remarks and start calling someone names - all good examples of control and manipulation in the most negative sense of the word.

Presenting this list with different meanings in this thread was a good effort to take the sting out of this "conversation", thanks for that.

kind regards,

Tom

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

That is the trouble with rigid ideology, you have to make everything else flexible in order to fit within it. As we used to joke, who are you going to believe, comrade, your lying ears or me?

William Shakespeare was able to say far more with fewer words. Everytime we allow someone to use a word that is not accurate, we contribute to the confusion. I am being more of a stickler here because we (on this forum) do not challenge the use of words as often as we should, probably out of politeness. This thread began because the original post was unclear and several posters voiced clarification.

If I allow someone to call a chicken a duck, then I contributed to the confusion when duck and chicken are used interchangeably. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Another trouble is you may say what you mean and mean what you say only for it not to be understood.

Very common actually, ask any Aikido or other martial arts instructor. One day the student finally grasps the meaning.

The original post to me, the concept being offered, seemed clear enough.

Feelings and emotions can only be changed by you yourself and I would say that is vitally important in the progress and deeper understanding of Aikido.

Peace.G.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Your first remark seems to contradict your last remark. To an extend I agree, if you try to explain something it is best to do so as "claire et distincte" as possible.

This is even more important if you work with a systematized structure like a computer. One word - one meaning will simplify working with it. A certain amount of rigidity or discipline will improve the system.

But this cannot be applied to philosophy. Words can and do have different meanings. This is also true in a dialogue or any kind of conversation. If you decide that a word can only have one meaning; "to manipulate means to nurture", "control is a legal requirement" then you create for yourself a doctrine or as you say rigid ideology.

It is in the dialogue itself that you figure out what the other person really means, whether you really understand what the other person is saying, whether you can follow his definitions, argumentation, conclusions.
For that we need a quality that is called listening or an open mind. Holding on to a doctrine is nothing but a closed door or a brick wall to hide behind.

To add to this there is also a "build up" or structure if you like in each dialogue. Not following that structure leads also to a lot of confusion. To give an example from my posts in this thread; if I state something like; "control and manipulation are a form of aggression" then that is a statement that you can agree with or not. But is also a definition. If you then respond with "I control and manipulate my children and the environment" then from that follows only one logical conclusion.

In such a case it would be wiser to come up with a question, like "what is the basis of your definition?" That is challenging the poster to come up with an explanation. That explanation will either clarify things or show a mistake in reasoning.

Jumping to conclusions will also contribute to confusion. And starting from the premiss that no matter what, you are always right or worse the other is wrong and therefor the enemy, will not only lead to confusion but to frustration and much animosity.

Tom

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Graham,

Very true - it has happened to me often enough that I taught a technique or a principle month after month or even year after year and that people did not grasp it.
But it also has happened that when I would ask a friend over to give a class or invite my sensei for a seminar everyone seemed to understand the same technique or principle within what felt like minutes.
It is how the learning process works - someone understands at the moment that everything, so to say, comes together.

A forum like this has its limits. Sometimes it is really impossible to share your good intentions or experiences or acquired knowledge, no matter how you express them.

Greetings from the Auvergne,

Tom.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

This is true. Dissemination of thought does not necessarily guarantee consumption and retention. I could lecture algebra to elementary school children. I would not be wrong in my dissemination, but the children would not be able to consume and retain my lecture. Also, the ability to consume and retain does not guarantee the quality of dissemination. For example, technical engineers like programmers have a poor stereotype of their ability to interact with others.

The choice to narrowly define a term is not equivalent to "doctrine", nor are either words equivalent to "ideology", rigid or otherwise. Words have limited definition; within the context of its usage one ascertains its meaning and the rest of possible meanings are dismissed. Our dialogues are intended to clearly provide for the dismissal of possible meanings, leaving our consumers with strong direction as to how we want the meaning of our message consumed.

This is a good question to ask when the meaning of the message is unclear. Of course, in doing so we are confirming that the original message did not sufficiently communicate the meaning of the message...

First, if my message required my consumer to jump to a conclusion, that means I left the path unclear. I can blame the consumer, but I was the one who was unclear enough as to cause them to make an educated guess. Unless it was Spock, because I trust Spock's educated guesses more than most people's facts (sorry, some Trekkie humor).
Second, to begin from an infallible premise is often the best way to begin most debates, if not dialogues. For example, many debate arguments begin with a factual statement, around which the debate is focused. I think it is obvious that equating "wrong" with "enemy" is a poor association; if that was the case my house would be at war (I love you honey).

Sometimes when our uke's give us a hard time, I'll ask nage, "what did you do to cause uke to hunker down?" We often blame uke for bad energy or bad partnership. We sometimes forget that nage's role is to communicate too. Expressing ideology is difficult because we are often emotionally attached to the message. Rejecting the message is in some respect considered personal rejection. This forum tends to express ideological perspectives often, much of the time without adequate evidential support. I think we try to accommodate these perspectives with greater tolerance than many other forums.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Normally, I abstain from posting to threads on which I have received my aikiweb moderation spanking... however not today.

I thought clarified myself with control and manipulation as a means to an end (nurture). Not that controlling and manipulation are the definition of nurturing. I also gave you a hint at the intention of such control, by saying the child doesn't need to be aware it is happening. Does that context indicate to you aggression? Simply the fact of talking about control in the children context vs. the martial context should have conveyed the intent. While there are parents out there that don't abide an instinctual connection of love and bonding with their own children, maybe I could have been given the benefit of the doubt as to my (normal) intentions towards my own children.

But you choose to parse language much like a computer, needing things spelled out explicitly. One of the pleasures of conversing with humans vs. instructing computers is you DON'T have to spell things out, or shouldn't have to. One can marvel at all the multiple definitions of various words and how we understand one another (and indeed it is amazing - as any computer scientist researching natural language parsing might tell you), however it is in our nature to use the context of a word to pair down the possible meanings into an understanding, again, within the context.

And when that dialog devolves into quibbling about the definition of "my" and what it means in different context, that speaks volumes in and of itself.

Which gets back to my assertion above, you seem to need things explicitly spelled out, and here you offer your schema how a conversation works. What an unnecessarily tedious method of communication, especially in an informal setting such as this.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Are you sure you don't mean "precise"?

Not entirely tongue in cheek,

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

And yet one more example of tediousness.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

add on top of that with differences in experience and cultural, you will find how difficult it is to communicate. i found that this lesson seemed to work well https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits-habit5.php, at least when i paid attention to it.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

thought i would respond to this. short answer: yes, i did and do and will continue until they are 18 years of age, out of my house, and gone to college.

my grandfather to my father: you don't want to go to college? fine. the army will draft you. i will prepare a plot for your grave. (this is during the vietnam war)
my father: i believed the medical college will accept my application. (dad became a doctor)

father to me (took me to hospital where they treated drug addicts and long time smokers): see those people with only skin on bones that looked like corpses? druggies! see those people with tubes ran out of their body to drain their lung fluids? smokers!
me: haven't touched or went near drug or ciggarettes eversince. i still remembered the images after all these years.

manipulation and control are just tools. by themselves have no evil or good. it's the people who wield it that determines its association. same goes with power.

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Well said....

Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings
 

Actually, it's more "hoist by your own petard". Shakespeare, ya know. Or something.