Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

I doubt that comes from 1925 but I know he said it after the war.

It is well known that after the war he had changed. Well known, well discussed. Therefore his views were different so how can you think he said the same things? Impossible.

I would even guess that when he got angry and said 'that's not my Aikido' he was frustrated with those still doing it as if it was daito ryu.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

except according to you he wasn't teaching Daito-ryu by that point and had "changed", well before actually. So how would he be angry at people for doing something he wasn't teaching, wasn't talking about and something that wasn't really discussed within his organization at that time?

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Quite simple really. See it all the time. People reverting to what they used to do or even thinking, as many still do now, that he must be doing those secret internal daito ryu stuff.

Still in the old time samurai mindset.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

And, I wonder why he promoted Gozo Shioda to 9th Dan for not doing "his" aikido. Similarly, Rinjiro Shirata, Minoru Mochizuki and other pre-war students were not doing "his" aikido....that's a bit too far fetch AFAIK.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

THere seems to be an ever shifting timeline from when Ueshiba and his aiki changed from the hard and godless Daito-ryu to the soft and loving Ai-ki-do we know today. Good luck nailing that one down. :)

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Nothing to do with pre war, nothing to do with one incident either. No connection.

Regards.G

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

It's not hard, really. After the war. Simple.

Regards G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

From the o/p....

Fills every part of the body, like water flowing that never stops. From seika tanden.

From a calm, serene, relaxed body and mind.

You can't find this through intellect. You can't find this through logic. It's not dependent on who said what and when.

Through spirit, yes. I personally call this Hara, for both location and resultant conditions and flow.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

I know that he said it before the war - it's a matter of public record. I can think that he said the same things because I can read...

Anyway, my previous question remains - which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

Best,

Chris

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

You're the historian, you tell me. As I said, those things said after the war are Aikido, those which contradict these from earlier are not.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

You want me to tell you what you are saying is irrelevant? I don't think so.

Since you have such a clear idea what those things are it should be easy for you to state them.

Best,

Chris

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Too many. It would take all night and all of tomorrow.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Pick the top three and cite where he said them pre-war.

Best,

Chris

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

I don't store dates and times and places, it's a waste of time. I leave that to intellectuals to intellectualize about.

Regards.G

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

So you don't know what he said or when he said it - just that you disagree with whatever it was you can't remember?

Best,

Chris

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

I know Aikido. I know lots of what he said as Aikido. Knowing is not data.

When you know you don't have to remember.

I feel sorry for all those who carry all that data around in their heads. Cups still full.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

So Graham, Let me see if I got this right.
You're saying
A guy from Japan said stuff you can't read that was translated by a guy who admits he didn't understand many things the Japanese guy said and was joined by a son who fabricated a history that you like.
So now you know things that you have heard and read that may or may not have ever even been actually said by the Japanese guy whom you can't read, but after all that..... you know what you know but you don't know from where or when you know only that you know....something that you can't define.

Now you are telling Chris that because he can read what the Japanese guy actually said and when he said it and can memorize and research it, define it, and explain it, and tell you and has also translated for the Japanese guy's hiers...that it is he who's cup is full and he can't learn?
I think that is a pretty fair review of the exchange. I'm lost. I'm laughing..but I'm lost
Dan

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

That's quite a story. No wonder you're laughing. Very creative, mystical, complicated, oh and nice additions too.

Let me try.....

Once upon a time there was a guy who started a new art called Aikido. He called it 'the true martial art based on universal truth' He said it cannot be anything but a martial art of love. He said many universal things and principles including the true state of Aikido is love and harmony.

Being a very spiritual man and seeing spiritually how the principles of love, ki, life, goodness, non resistance, non-control etc work in the universe and lie and living and being enlightened and pointing out it's not to do with logic and intellect he proceeded to share his new spiritual, compassionate art.

If you want to learn only physical Aikido, to do with just the body, he advised you take up nutrition.
If you want to learn mental Aikido he advised zen or any that rids you of the need for data and thinking and especially the past. To empty your cup. Now if you want to learn Spiritual Aikido he said you must learn what he says now and forget all that went before.

Alas the masses as usual hung on to the past, filled their minds with data and reverted back to past Ryu.

He smiled for he knew they had to go through such processes but meanwhile smiled also as he saw some bright stars emerging in the universe, some who understood, some seeds had taken root. He was happy.

And from Kokyu Ryoku to the heavens and earth Aikido spread.

Now that's a better story.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Sounds dangerous to me: Knowledge obfuscates as well as reveals; hence the need to constantly question, both the world around you and yourself. While data doesn't equate to knowledge, it must match up or one of the two is false. Data is fact. Fact is truth. Truth is reality. Not all data are accurate, but insofaras they are, they determine the validity of what one knows.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Hi Matthew.

Data is a reality. Data put together is knowledge. A bunch of related facts. None of this is truth however.

There's a body of knowledge for every subject you care to look into, you could gather, gather, gather, like a great computer and be called 'intelligent'

That just about covers it. Notice I haven't mentioned understanding, or knowing. They are spiritual matters related to truth.

Different level.

Regards.G.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Dan, I thought that Graham's last post pretty much said it all - there's nothing I can add to that. :D

Writing from Narita Airport - maybe I'll be warm soon...

Best,

Chris

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Level 42?

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

Nah, there's only 36 chambers.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

I am not Dan. I think so too. Basically there is nothing much you can add to someone who has suggested that he has reached satori. :D

Enjoy your trip home.

Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku
 

I think he's more into Nirvana... but still I maintain Level 42 were better.