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Re: Aiki-Boxing
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Re: Aiki-Boxing
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Re: Aiki-Boxing
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I think there are purists in every style of martial art. Some are dojo purists who don't want to train in any other dojo than their own; more are style purists who feel theirs is superior to some degree. Personally, I can't think of a time I've seen an Aikidoka say one couldn't mix their training...though granted I'm not always paying much attention. I've heard people say they don't think they need to, and I agree that's a dangerous mentality. Any perspective is improved when it comes from more than one point of reference...that's how our 2-D eyes form a 3-D image allowing us to see depth much better and the same is true for martial training. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
I have a possibly daft idea here, let me just bounce it around and we'll see where it goes. I think we're too busy trying to use Aiki as a tactical principle "How do I defeat x using Aikido" or "How do I over come x using Aikido" might be a better way of putting it.
I think (emphasis on think) we should be using Aiki as a strategic principle "Do I need to defeat x or do I just need to be in one piece at the end of the encounter?" The former, I feel, is a competition/sport based mindset. You have turned up for a fight and you must win it. The second, I feel, is a martial mindset. You are in trouble, you must get out of it. If I during the course of my day come across a boxer that wants to beat me up it makes far more sence for me to keep my mai-ai and force him to come across it, onto my atemi and then technique than it does to stand in his mai-ai and risk getting punched. Obviously there are exceptions to this, I might literally be boxed into a corner etc, but overall I've been taught how to move, been taught to keep mai-ai, in short, I know how to make it difficult for someone to hit me. I am, reletively speaking, safe, let him throw punches and exhaust himself. Let him goof up, come storming at me and get thrown. Just a thought. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
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I think the essence of what OSensei taught is still present in Aikido today. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure because I never trained with OSensei, but if I had to make an educated guess, that would be it. I've done a highly Ki-society oriented style and Shodokan/Tomiki style; both felt different from each other, but both were very much the same. One uses competition; the other doesn't; both seem pretty potent to me. Both seem to have involved a high level of feeling the way through the technique and it's there that I think the real learning takes place. When you can experience having people find and exploit openings, you find out how to not create them. The better your training partner, the more you tend to learn. The thing i really like about aikido training, per my own experiences anyway, is exactly that ability to begin from a powerful-feeling posture, move with that same kind of feeling, and finish with it, ready to move again at a moment's notice. Mix that with continually practicing with different partners who are doing the same thing and it's awesome. Granted, I can see how there might be different levels of awareness/proficiency; different areas of focus, etc. I agree there must be some who simply don't get it, or aren't looking as much for the ability to physically overcome another person, but I think "Aikido" is perfectly oriented for teaching someone how to maneuver quickly, with power. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
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Aikido as it is taught today in most instances, is not directly from the founder. One one if his direct students, Hiroshi Isoyama stated, "As you know, O-Sensei never wrote much about aikido in books, although some of this techniques are recorded in Budo. Sometimes I've wondered why he didn't write more about aikido, but on the other hand, I think I might understand: his thinking gradually evolved, and he may have felt that anything he wrote in his younger years would potentially end up being contradictory to his thinking later on. The same is true of his techniques: if he had said anything definitive about them at any point, he might have ended up contradicting himself later on as he evolved. Another difficulty is that different people have tended to interpret O-Sensei's words in different ways, even though he may have actually said the same thing to all of them. People then end up expressing their own interpretation as if they had absorbed all of what he meant, leading in turn to small variances and eventually to misunderstandings. When O-Sensei taught he never gave any particularly detailed explanations." |
Improving
I had a look at the videos on the skinnymonkey YouTube account. The third aiki-boxing shows significant improvement from the first one - both the aiki and the boxing side of it :)
Here it is, if you didn't already know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q It is very difficult to compare martial arts, mainly because of their rules differing so much, and also because one tends to adapt to one of the two arts when trying them out together. For example, in the first video, I got the impression that the aiki-guy moved more like in boxing than in aikido - stepping sideways instead of forward. In the third video, especially the first half of it, the aiki-guy moves more like in aikido. Irimi steps. Not that I imagine to be that accomplished at it, but I guess that one needs to stick to aiki steps and principles, and go for the body more than those quick boxer arms. I would probably try iriminage nine out of ten times. A wrist technique probably needs to be applied from a clinch distance, not at arms length. You go in close, apply a wrist grip, and then step out for the throw or pinning. Anyway, it is clear that you guys experimenting with it have great fun, and that you improve. I am curious as to what it will look like in a year or so. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
Thanks Stefan! I'm glad you liked it. I'm curious what it will look like in a year or so as well! Your suggestions are very good. We'll try to keep them in mind next time we do this. The 3rd experiment felt a lot better from the Aiki side (for me). We haven't been catching as much flack for the boxing on the 3rd one, so I guess that has improved too! Either way, it keeps us on our toes and we are having a lot of fun with it, so we'll keep on moving forward.
Thanks again for your input. Jeff D. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
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I don't doubt there are mistakes of understanding which have occured. I imagine it a bit like the parable of the 3 blind men and the elephant: all three have very different ideas of what the elephant feels like. In a sense, all three are wrong about what the elephant "really" looks like. As it relates to Aikido, still, through experiencing other methods (whether from different schools, styles or people), one can begin to get a pretty good idea of what's strong about each. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
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Re: Aiki-Boxing
Thanks Don... I didn't take it that way so no problems here.
I always appreciate a spirited debate as long as I can learn something from it. Jeff D. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
[quote=Larry Camejo;191622]Hi Robert,
I daresay attempting entries from other arts will only help one in developing tsukuri that will be best suited to execute waza from those arts, but will not assist one in developing the Aikido responses to that scenario. The challenge is to improve my own Aiki waza to a place where it works just as well as a well trained approach from any other method. But to do this I need to fully understand and be able to execute those elements that make up sound, effective Aiki waza. I have found that traditional Tai Sabaki (especially the way it's done in Shodokan) is quite effective at getting one into position to execute Aiki waza in the Boxing situation. The problem however does not lie in the physical response but the mental. Btw, do you have a copy of "Aikido: Tradition and the Competitive Edge" by F. Shishida and T. Nariyama? Larry, Yep, have the book and have read it once or twice, need to read it again. I agree that Shodokan taisabaki is effective, as it is not much different in footwork than basic boxing is. I'm not sure that all styles taisabaki is the same, what little I have seen of other styles seems too big, too circular to respond well to sharp blows (jabs and crosses). And taisabaki as Shodokand and Nariyama teaches it is not always that effective, the famous story (in Ohio at least it's famous) of Nariyama getting shot in the chest six times with a burning cotton wad proved that without a doubt. He was quick to admit that getting out of the way of a boken is quite different than a cotton wad shot from a .38. As to my goals from this excercise, they are multiple, but mostly to become a more effective combatant and improve the use of my Shodokan techniques: "to fully understand and be able to execute those elements that make up sound, effective Aiki waza". Well put summary. When I referenced other entries I was not really thinking of doing DLTs, more like using hubud/lubud or bagua and tai chi redirections (pardon my misspelling for anyone who is a kali practioner) to close the gap and make faster initial contact and entry possible. Once, as you state, we go to the ground it isn't shodokan anymore, it's ground grappling. Thanks for your insight and comments. Oh, and welcome to the JAA/USA, I see you are applying for membership. That is great, welcome aboard! |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
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This brings an important point to your testing - mindset. This is partially why it is difficult to balance safety with reality. The real attack comes with certain psychological elements that are impossible to replicate in a "test" environment. This of course can make the test a lot more difficult or easy depending on the test. Recently we had the Kendo club go at us with Shinai (we put on the Men to protect our noggins) what we quickly found out was that if the Kendoka used bokken or tried a more powerful stroke with the Shinai (i.e. in an attempt to really hurt the attacker) we would be able to avoid and execute waza on most occasions. However, after realising what was happening they modified their strikes by pulling it short at the last second or by doing quick snap strokes (not full powered cuts). The change in mindset resulted in it being more difficult to avoid and we got hit most times, so the experience was most enlightening. The reality was however that even if they did hit us it would probably not end the fight at that point and we'd be inside where they had no defence. Bringing this back to Aiki-Boxing - the gloves on the Boxer would enable him to be a bit more free with his striking power (this is good from an Aiki perspective), but due to the size of the gloves the potential for certain Aiki waza (esp. kansetsu waza) is reduced. We see this in the videos as the more effective waza tend to be those going for the body and not the limbs. You can move to smaller gloves, but the safety factor diminishes and your partner may hold back more, making things more difficult. As I indicated in an earlier post, you also saw how putting on gloves as the Aikidoka also modified your movements, which was as a result in your changed mindset now that you had gloves and could strike in a different manner. My own experience in this sort of training says that there may be some benefit in presenting a clear, easy target to your opponent (lead his mind) so that he dedicates an attack and then remove the target at the last instant as you enter. I use this in tanto randori and it never fails as long as I am relaxed enough to move efficiently and at the right time. Also, from using this in sparring against Kendo, Judo and Jujutsu it also worked, but one has to be willing to almost taste the strike so that when you do move at the last instant there is no possibility of recovery for the Boxer. Quote:
Regards. LC:ai::ki: |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
I would recommend a glove like
http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22614 or http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22292 Not much noticeable difference from the impact of a boxing glove, but a lot smaller footprint, and it's possible to control the hand better. |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
[quote=Larry Camejo;191819]"Now that is quite an interesting story. Would love to hear the details via PM. "
I'll send that on a PM later! It is very good story. "However, after realising what was happening they modified their strikes by pulling it short at the last second or by doing quick snap strokes (not full powered cuts). The change in mindset resulted in it being more difficult to avoid and we got hit most times, so the experience was most enlightening. The reality was however that even if they did hit us it would probably not end the fight at that point and we'd be inside where they had no defence." I agree whoeheratedly mind set is all important. When there is no "real" danger (often seen in tanto randori matches) we react totally differntly thatn when we percieve the attack as "real" and react from the superconcious/instantaneous part of our mind instead of the thinking side if that makse sense. Wish I had better words for that concept. "My own experience in this sort of training says that there may be some benefit in presenting a clear, easy target to your opponent (lead his mind) so that he dedicates an attack and then remove the target at the last instant as you enter." Another good point and it atkes great deal of centering to be able to present that target, good goals to work on. Domo arigato! "Lol. Wow it doesn't take long for ones business to get out does it? :D Thanks, I hope we can do the organization justice.:)" I'm sure you will do us justice, Larry, it's great to have you joining. We have been contemplating for a while about how to make it a Pan-American organization (instead of just USA) since we have associated clubs in Brazil already as well. And as to knowing your business, it helps that I'm on the board. Got that inside track! |
Re: Aiki-Boxing
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