Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Hopefully we know about the scientific method (if not they didn't, they do now :D) But my point was you don't go out drop a brick and a feather and say, heavy things fall faster than light thing because that is what you observe. Especially when Galileo has already proved that this Greek notion is wrong. We should always start by learning the lessons of those who came before us. Then we will develop past them.

I said you may be the person that would say the negative comment about me saying I could handle a BJJer. I don't know you so I can't say you're that person. You say you aren't, so I believe you. But then Darin said,

So someone somewhere at some point will say it.

Like I said before, the best method to deal with a BJJer is to knock him out with one strike! But obviously without the training you will never succeed. Could a karateka do it? I would love to see Kanazawa in his prime have to defend himself against a BJJer on the street. It would be interesting to see. Kanazawa has the sort of spirit you would expect to be successful, with the goods to back it up.

If you want a sure fire method, that will be more of a struggle, and will take longer to do, and will require you to have a similar strength fitness and ability, take him to the ground and beat him at his game. This is how I would do it, after lunching a knee at his face if he shoots, or my elbow to his chin, if he is standing. Maybe it will connect, and maybe he will go down. But at least it will help me when we are on the floor, since he has to deal with his dislocated jaw or his broken nose, maybe.

Talented people can make a sport work for them. But the principle in Yoseikan is mutual welfare and prosperity. Those who will fail with the sport method are then left behind, and this creates an unbalance in society. An unbalanced society will lead to social problems. Hence a training method that is suitable for all is better.

Regards,

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

To me aikido really isn’t designed to deal with someone trying to take you to the ground. But what would I do? To answer the original question i have been of the opinion lately that you need to be able to implement technique in a static environment. Specifically as has been mentioned in this thread you are not likely to get a lead on a trained BJJ practitioner, or any other martial art practitioner for that matter. Techniques that are trained to control and throw in aikido have their origin in much more savage application (which you should know).

1.If you can't lead into a throw then use the technique to break. i know, not very sporting.

2. Take atemi seriously. I work out on a punching bag with the atemi I have been taught and I think it fits into aikido body movement better that boxing style of striking (obviously).
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3. The guy is almost certainly going to get you to the ground. So either train in BJJ or get your friend to kick the guy in the head while you are rolling around on the ground. Not very sporting I know.

a questions for the BJJ people, would hard ground affect your takedown technique??

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Is that why you were training with Ross? How'd he go with him accepting your grade from Hans? Not criticising your ability just wondering about the politics with the Seifukai. How about Patrick Auge?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Back to the topic, I think it all depends on what the BJJ guy will do. The thing is, in a street situation he may be pointing his finger in your face. Or in a bar pushing you. You only see these kinds of attacks in the UFC press conferences! hehehe

I too like Graham have had success using leg and ankle locks against grapplers as well as foot sweeps. But then again we don't do pure aikido and Yoseikan Budo wasn't just aikido.

I still think it comes down to how you train.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Ross was very happy to accept my 4th kyu at the time. He said, in theory, a couple of years (which would have been a couple of years ago) and he was happy for me to be a shodan.

In America, Auge Sensei was very accepting of me. I found with my 8 years (at the time) and 2nd kyu I was at the level I belonged at, but there was really only one second kyu to compare myself to, William, and he, I think, had been doing it for a while (he is the guy that kicked my arse with the grappling). I know for sure the brown belts were above and beyond me, hence I know what I am training to achieve.

Regards,

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Judo also has the same goal of mutual welfare and benefit. However, the training methods are not designed for everyone. My fear is that like the "No child left behind Act" in the Unites States, targeting a training method everyone can do means watering down your training to the lowest ability level of the group. When students couldn't pass the tests in high school, to keep funding schools made the tests easier. Without exclusion, you see the same in martial arts.

That is NOT to say some people should no train. Everyone should train, however, people need to realize they will not always succeed. Not everyone will get a black belt, or even get past their white belt. The encouragement should be to train, everyone can train, even if its only for 5 minutes at the level most judo and bjj clubs train at. The training is for everyone, just everyone might not be successful at it.

In regards to the scientific method, the martial arts are not an exact science. In fact most of our proofs have never been recreated. There is not a single person in aikido today who can do what Ueshiba did. To me this means one of three things.
a) aikdoka of today are training wrong on purpose for some reason.
b) Ueshiba was a poor teacher and did not teach what he knew.
c) The stories were not true.

Unlike the feather and the brick, we can not reproduce what Ueshiba was able to do. I can quickly test the feather and brick and find they fall at the same speeds and grow on it. I can quickly test the effectiveness of an armbar and grow on it. But the metaphysical subjects that I am questioning can not be tested. They are more like philosophy or psychology. There is no proof or right answer, unlike an armbar. Also my personal testing in both types of training environments has proven to me there is something lacking in non-sport training that I think is dearly important. This is in direct conflict with Ueshiba. Who is right? Me, Him, probably both. It is not disrespectful to challenge him. I doubt he even cares.

Someone asks if hard ground would change the way I do takedowns. The short answer is no, my takedowns work the same no matter how hard the ground is, you are my landing mat. Squishy human is soft no matter if its concrete or a bed of nails.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Judo was originally developed for this goal. That is why it is taught in the school system in Japan. This was Kano's goal, not an Olympic sport, with that type of training.

I think with the right teacher everyone can succeed.

It would have to be a combination of the three. But that makes the goal no less important. The main problem today, and I think even in the later years of O'Sensei's life, is that you don't get the feeling that the uke is really testing tori, it is mostly a flashy demonstration. When you see footage of Mifune with his partners, you know those guys are trying to throw him, and he moves effetely past them, and then throws them in return. This is how it used to be with O'Sensei. So with consistent hard mindful training, the evidence is still there, Kano, Ueshiba, Mifune, Mochizuki, that it is possible to cultivate the awareness to use simple techniques to overcome an opponent.

I would not call it metaphysical. This is kind of a cop-out. You can see the physical manifestation. Today I only see it in kendo, were old guys bust out simple flicks and beat down younger faster stronger opponents. But it is there.

The topic of sport or not sport training is highly subjective. To me a sport leads to a competition. A competition leads to a winner. A winner requires a loser. There is nothing mutually beneficial in this situation. I would say that O'Sensei is right. But I track this logic up to the idea of the cold war as Mochizuki Kancho spoke about. If you think about a winning and losing mentality in terms of a war, losing is bad. Ultimately, everyone loses. This is the fact of mutually assure destruction. Plant the seed that it's not okay to lose in a future president's mind, and when it comes time to choose to step down or press the button, there's a chance it won't be good, for the whole world!

Regards,

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I see this kind of rhetoric alot from the art vs sport debate and it tells me that people just don't understand what they are calling "competitive" training.
Having taught in both Aikido and BJJ it is very clear to me that it's the latter that really teaches people the value of losing. It's not a subject that ever comes up in aikido - but it's an almost everyday discussion on the BJJ mat...

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Well, that implies you think there is nothing beneficial to losing. If 'losing' means no longer having training available (i.e., if you had to auditione for it or if poor 'performers' get kicked out or get lesser quality training), that's one thing, but if it means 'you don't get to complete the technique you wanted to complete, and instead you have to tap out', or 'you don't get this particular rank today' that's pretty different. That may or may not teach you a lot, depending on the circumstances (I mean if it's too far over your head it might not be helpful, but if it's right at the right level it can teach you plenty).

Succeed to the same level when compared to each other student, though? (I don't think every human being on earth has it in them to be a 7th dan, unless we arbitrarily change the defnition of 7th dan to include them. The same goes for any rank, unless the ranks are given for effort instead of achievement, which makes them something quite different). Or succeed relative to their own goals and abilities, in the sense that each student should get better in some way with time?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Interesting conversation!

I think alot of this, as everything in life, depends on how you define success and failure.

I think too many times we assume that everyone defines it the same and that there is only one set of values or criteria to judge success and failure on.

I think with martial type training we tend to want to draw a conclusion on success and failure based on a "would you have lived or died, or suffered a severe injury.

Sort of a black or white criteria, or duality so to speak....

I find this quite ironic since this is the very thing that budo really seeks to eliminate or to at least reach a deeper understanding of.

...yet we all feel compelled to judge ourselves and others martial ability and effectiveness against some criteria that we some how established based on ....what?

Our perception of how well we do...however we self define it!

In a competitive environment we do have criteria to judge effectiveness...in things like judo and BJJ tournaments were we determine winners and losers of the matches on that established critieria.

That said, I don't really think that anyone I compete with in BJJ really cares or takes it too seriously macroscopically.

I just think of the 75 plus year old man that I saw from Sweden in January and the Europeans that got out there and rolled with the rest of us! I think everyone considered him a winner just for having the desire and the joy of life to actually be out there doing it!

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

[quote=Someone asks if hard ground would change the way I do takedowns. The short answer is no, my takedowns work the same no matter how hard the ground is, you are my landing mat. Squishy human is soft no matter if its concrete or a bed of nails.[/QUOTE]

Thanks

Do you think as a BJJ practitioner you could implement a takedown or defence of a takedown that would take advantage of the hard ground?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

most takedowns land uke on the ground under nage - so yeah hard ground play into the takedown guys favour. Also if you sprawl on a guy on concrete he's not having a great day....

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I'm also a judoka, so I'm not not a normal bjj player. But most of the guys in my club are either wrestlers or judoka, and they have good takedown skills. Even on the mats I've been slamed so hard I had to take a few seconds to get my bearings.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Certainly the composition of the ground material is a factor. That said, the situation is what the situation is, you don't really have much of a choice many times over what you have for ground cover, it is what it is.

To me, putting things in perspective, there is no difference in execution on hard ground vice soft ground...it just hurts more and not something you want to train on.

you tuck your head in on soft ground as well as hard ground, you move the same way on the ground, albiet you might get scuffed up and road rash...

it is what it is.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Where was this, please?

Besides which, it's a little disingenuous to say 'handled' when you patiently did things that were outside the scope of that practice session, isn't it? That would be akin to me pulling out a gun and shooting you during Jiyu-Waza.

Same question again.

Mike Fooks: clean up your inbox: I'm trying to send you PM's but they keep bouncing back :(

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

It was at the Scarborough PCYC.

No it was just Ne Waza randori. However, I had no concept of "rules" so every now and again Allen would call "Shido". Allan liked to use me as a practice dummy for his senior brown belt, as I was bigger and had a little more resistance in me then his black belt (also I think the brown belt had sussed out the black belts tactics). I stopped training with him because I didn't like being used as a training tool for his competition. And I got injured due to this in my 4th and final class with him.

I will say I have surprised most of the judo clubs I have gone to, even Peter at Judo International (;)) was surprised. However, I felt he was a little heavy on the competition aspect.

I do most of my ground training on Friday day at ECU in Joondalup. The final 15 to 20 minutes of training is grappling. Occasionally we get a chance to do some on Tuesday night.

Regards

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Interesting Bob...same thought came to my mind concerning the gun analogy.

there certainly is a spectrum of force, paradiqms, rules (implied, specified, and assumed) in any situation.

The concept of "handled" can mean many things. As with you the concept of a handgun popped in my mind. I can pretty much handle any body with a empty hand attack, or even a non-projectile weapon outside of that fighitng range with a handgun.

So what is the point of developing a decision criteria surrounding the overall worth of an art based on whatever you personally decide is a good one to judge things on?

I will "one up" you with the hand gun. then someone else will "one up me with guided missles, or blow darts, and on and on.

The point is, not the comparison of whether Aikidoka can handle judoka, bjjers, on others within a set of parameters we establish.

The point is, IMO, what we can learn from the various encounters and experiences that can lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and others we interact with.

Not trying to sound too esoteric or high brow on this...frankly I love a good challenge and would gladly meet anyone that wants to test their skill level against me.

I always win.

why? because it ain't about the being "handled" part of it for me, but the understanding and knowledge that we both gain from the encounter.

(I am both an aikidoka and a BJJer)

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I think this embodies the principle of Shiai Kano Sensei gave us, "to try together," not to compete.

Regards,

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Yes. I think Kano's point is missed often. The competition model can be a good tool to learn his lessons and grow with as long as competition is a means to the end, and not the measure of overall success of effectiveness.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Hear, hear.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I think I know that judo instructor at the Scarborough PCYC but I can't remember his name. Been over a year since I was last there. The aikido school there is now a part of John Langley's institute of aikido.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

I was about to say, I would have thought you would have trained with them. But then I though, Yoshi was more of a Karateka, so he might not have been to heavy on the Judo. Didn't he teach kids judo?

Regards,

PS Yes, his name is Allen, or maybe Allan, or Alan... I don't know

Just looked him up, Allen it is.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Beating a man well into his 60's is not going to look good on paper :)

EDIT: Oh I see. Yes, I know of whom you speak....

Still, a sample size of one judoka BB (whom, AFAIK, doesn't like or do a lot of groundwork)...hmm

Yes, well....Alan is an interesting character :)

Oh - you're that Graham! :)

But I only saw you there for one class - what happened? Were you just popping in to check the place out, or did you decide that didn't meet your needs?

Shame, as there is some decent training going on Monday and Thurs nights, esp in regards to randori (newaza and tachiwaza). Strong guys: we now also sport a few BJJ purple and blue belts.

I'd recommend you look at UWA (ex Olympians and Int'l players)....but it seems you'd prefer a less competitive atmosphere?

PS: Did you check out the Kawaishi folks I recommended (IIRC)?

The BJJ / MMA club there? Or something else?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

No, it wasn't Allen, it was his black belt, I say his, as for the 4 weeks I was there, there was only one. I can't recall his name.

Well lets just say there was one other thing that made me want to stop training :D

I enjoyed the training, but like I said, Peter was very into the competition, so it doesn't really gel with my "philosophy" I really just want to learn techniques to improve my Yoseikan.

YOU MENTIONED SOME KAWAISHI PEOPLE!!! PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMENTION THEM TO ME! I HAVE KAWAISHI'S BOOKS, THE MAN IS A LEGEND!

:eek: Shin kyoku, deep breath...

Regards,

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 

Aikido will work well if you concentrate on distance,tech,Off Balancing and throwing.Do not try to pin,because BJJ artist train to fight on the ground,your technic( small circle & tight no slack) Ok.Now to all who read this message RESPECT THE ART OF BJJ,because these artist will put your lights out.I have a great respect for BJJ,and all arts,and so should everyone.