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moon in the water Blog Tools Rating: Rate This Blog
Creation Date: 04-26-2010 10:46 PM
the water does not try
to reflect the moon
and the moon has no desire
to be reflected
but when the clouds clear
there is the moon in the water
Blog Info
Status: Public
Entries: 155
Comments: 1,111
Views: 1,008,338


In Techniques koshinage koshi waza hip throw Entry Tools Rating: 5 Stars!
  #32 New 12-03-2010 04:15 AM
koshinage koshi waza hip throw There is no point in destroying your uke because then you will no longer have a training partner.
How to Do a Hip Throw (o-goshi) by eHow.com

"So I said can you show us some hip throws?
And he said no, but I can show you some cool pins..."

Koshinage is the name used for all hip throws in aikido. In judo hip throws - koshi waza - are a category of throws.

In aikido there are two basic types of koshinage.

old-style koshinage
In the first type of koshinage at the instant of the throw the uke is at ninety degrees to tori. There is not really a comparable throw in modern judo but the equivalent right-angle body position appears in kataguruma (uke is loaded onto tori's shoulders rather than the waist).

Tori breaks uke's balance and then rolls uke approximately over the line of the belt off to the side. The hip movement in this throw is much less pronounced. This throw is the traditional aikido koshinage and O Sensei can be seen doing it in old photos and film. The older generation of Aikikai teachers sometimes used this technique. For example Sadateru Arikawa Sensei did this version.

O Sensei doing koshinage (from the aikiweb forum discussion below): http://img248.imageshack.us/i/koshiuz9.jpg

If you look at the animation of kataguruma you can see the similarities with traditional aikido koshinage.

judo-style koshinage
In the second type of koshinage uke is behind tori at the moment of the throw. Tori breaks uke's balance and with a sharp twisting hip movement - almost a flick - throws uke directly to the front.

Animation of ogoshi http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

history of koshinage
This second judo-style koshinage has some disadvantages for real self-defence because for an instant you turn your back on uke. So the technique has to be perfect with no weak points - accurately breaking uke's balance. That is probably why this style was not incorporated into aikido originally.

I was at a seminar in Tokyo some years ago with Shoji Nishio Sensei. He said clearly that because of his background in judo he had personally introduced most of the koshinage into aikido. So he was talking about the second judo-style koshinage.

It's true that teachers who have some experience in judo have very powerful koshinage. For example I remember Seiichi Sugano Sensei had a great koshinage. Also Kenji Shimizu Sensei of Tendoryu Aikido has a very dynamic koshinage.

koshinage in aikido today
Some dojos teach koshinage as a normal aikido technique. But it's also true that in many dojos in Japan koshinage is not really thought of as aikido and so it is not included in training at all. At the Aikikai hombu dojo there are only a few teachers who teach it regularly.

So the result of all this is that for a lot of people koshinage has become a little bit intimidating.

On the other side people who have done judo wonder what all the fuss is about. Ogoshi - a simple hip throw with tori's arm wrapped around uke's waist is one of the very first techniques taught in judo. In the Kodokan in Tokyo it is taught to beginners after about one month of learning ukemi and the basics of judo.

So if a white belt can do a hip throw after one month why are even some experienced aikidoka intimidated by koshinage?

One big reason is the ukemi.
In judo ukemi are - mostly - in a down direction.
In aikido mae ukemi are - mostly - in a forward direction. That's what mae means. That's why most aikido dojos teach a mae ukemi with the leg bent. That allows you to get into an attacking position facing any direction. In judo both legs are kept fairly straight in mae mawari ukemi and some of the impact is absorbed by striking the tatami with your feet. So a judo ukemi is kinder on the body for hard throws, especially for beginners.

Related to that is that in a traditional judo dojo the tatami is sprung. One person walking across a dojo can create vibrations at the other side of the dojo. The sprung tatami mats are excellent for absorbing judo throws which are often uke plus tori hitting the ground together. Aikido dojo mats are traditionally much harder. Hard mats are safer because it's not so easy to twist your ankle. They are much better for rolls too. In aikido the uke rolls away from danger and is ready to attack again immediately. In judo the throw is the end of the technique.

In the end it's not rocket science. If you do the ukemi from koshi nage after every training it's going to feel comfortable in a few months. If you do the ukemi from koshi nage every few months it's going to take a long, long time to improve. Crash mats can help beginners to overcome the fear but in the end like most things in aikido it comes down to practice. Then more practice. And then more practice.

the throw
Keep your feet, knees and legs parallel. Your feet should be like the number eleven. Your legs should look like a downhill skier's. It's very dangerous to let your knees splay out - uke might hit one on the way down.

Break uke's balance! Lower your hips well below uke's hips. Get good tight contact with uke. All basic points. As you twist uke over your hips raise them sharply by partly straightening your legs to get a dynamic throw.

There are a few things in aikido which are open to criticism from other budo. For example I'll talk about sword work another time. But koshinage is one. If your dojo doesn't do koshinage that's fine - it's not absolutely necessary in aikido. But if you do it don't do it half-heartedly. I don't want to accept that a judo white belt can do a more effective hip throw than an aikido yudansha. Neither should you.

List of judo techniques http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_judo_techniques

Ogoshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Goshi

How to Do a Hip Throw (o-goshi) by eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_4716702_hip-throw-ogoshi.html

Aikiweb forum thread discussion about koshinage (which I found while I was looking for an illustration of koshinage on the internet!) http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2165

great action shot: O Goshi by Jonathan Beck http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorconfusion/3495097925/ photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorco...th/3495097925/ used with his very kind permission

By chance this same shot was captured on video here:
Check it out - keeping in mind that Joe's opponent is doing his best not to be thrown while doing his best to throw him. Joe gets it done though! So in aikido keiko without the resistance and blocking from the uke this should be a piece of cake. Right? So koshinage is not a big deal.

niall matthews 2010
Views: 7726 | Comments: 27

RSS Feed 27 Responses to "koshinage koshi waza hip throw"
#12 12-06-2010 06:29 AM
niall Says:
[continued] But it's not difficult, really, and sometimes it's the most useful technique for a situation with a very close ma ai - critical distance. As Joe said there are a couple of different entry positions for your hips for the judo version (uke behind tori): shallow and deeper; and then the 90 degree angle for the aikido version. Next time I come over I'll include it if you like - but you probably will have cracked it by next summer!
#11 12-06-2010 06:29 AM
niall Says:
Thanks, Chris. Congratulations on your nidan! As I said koshinage isn't really necessary for aikido. For example it's not in the Aikikai syllabus: http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/gradingsystem.htm.
#10 12-06-2010 05:44 AM
chris wright Says:
Hi Niall, the elusive koshi nage, i've always wanted to learn this technique, but my technique still remains clumsy - for me the problem with the technique is the entry and getting the hips turned into uke, into the correct position. I think i'll commit a lot of training time in 2011 to learning koshi nage.
#9 12-04-2010 06:50 AM
niall Says:
If anyone is interested in the judo versions of koshi waza this is the excellent judoinfo.com page of technique videos http://www.judoinfo.com/video4.htm and this is the page of technique animations http://judoinfo.com/animate.htm
#8 12-04-2010 06:30 AM
niall Says:
Thanks, Joe, it's always good to have your wise comments. Ukigoshi (floating hip throw) also has much less hip insertion. Classification of judo techniques is sometimes mysterious. Uchimata (inner thigh throw) which is an ashi waza (foot or leg technique) looks as if it could be related to haraigoshi (sweeping hip throw) and hanegoshi (spring hip throw) which of course are koshi waza. Cheers, Niall
#7 12-04-2010 04:32 AM
sakumeikan Says:
Regarding the article on Koshi waza, the Judo throw Hane Goshi [Spring Hip Throw] also has a different hip insertion from waza like tsurikomi goshi or o goshi .Both O Gosh /tsurikomi Goshi have more hip insertion .Kata goruma is classified as a Te waza [Hand technique ]therfore theorectically is not a hip throw.
#6 12-04-2010 04:06 AM
niall Says:
Check out a video of Isoyama Sensei's kataguruma (shoulder wheel throw) at about 1.40. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfJXNuT02h0 If you watch the whole video you can see how hard his uke worked!
#5 12-04-2010 04:04 AM
niall Says:
Thanks for your comment, Billy. Kenji Shimizu Sensei left the Aikikai and started his independent Tendokan dojo in Sangenjaya in Tokyo. He had a judo background so his koshi nage was excellent. The shihan who got the gasps at the All-Japan Aikido Embu was Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei. In fact the technique was kataguruma. As I said it has similarities to the aikido koshinage in the relative positions of tori and uke but uke goes over tori's shoulders, not hips, so the fall is from much higher. Cheers.
#4 12-04-2010 03:03 AM
Makochan Says:
Hi Niall; Very interesting as always. It is true; I have not seen koshinage trained in many dojo. The first time I saw koshinage was at Hombu when Tada Sensei was teaching. It was the aikido style and very nice. One teacher at the All Japan Aikido Embu had a very dramatic koshinage, we all felt very sorry for his uke who dropped from about 7 feet in the air, Shimizu Sensei? Best, Billy
#3 12-03-2010 05:01 PM
niall Says:
Thanks Carina - very interesting. It's usually best to do an effective kuzushi breaking uke's balance (for all techniques - not just koshinage). Both of those have a different emphasis. The second one is very unusual because uke is thrown over tori's hip with his back to tori, not his front. That doesn't exist in judo and is very rare in aikido because that ukemi is very dangerous for beginners. If you can't land standing safely you have to do an ushiro ukemi like a parachute landing.
#2 12-03-2010 02:20 PM
guest1234567 Says:
#1 12-03-2010 02:20 PM
guest1234567 Says:
Thanks Niall very instructive again and you are right, why it is so difficult for some of us and in judo a white belt dominates it? Maybe we must start with judo ukemis? to fall down without fear. And we must practice much more, as you say every day after class to get the movement legs like 11 down and up and don't take ukes weight on the back but on the hip.

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