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Darren
03-14-2006, 12:22 PM
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!

Ron Tisdale
03-14-2006, 12:46 PM
In general, I've found that they work best when applied while standing, and maintained throughout until the final tap. But most people won't like the pain that goes with that, and I couldn't practice that way all the time. BJJ/judo style locks and pins seem to be a bit different in that it's easier to go from control to severe control to break in easy gradients. Aikido pins seem too often to go from loose control to break or dislocate really fast...sometimes without much in between.

Even ikkajo/ikkyo pin...just hold down the arm above the elbow and pick up on the wrist. I've known dislocations to occur very quickly that way. Whether or not that is *good* aikido is another question...

Best,
Ron

justinmaceachern
03-14-2006, 01:22 PM
Kind a conflicted here. I know for sure the few final locks will work and some wont. I have had the opportunity to bounce in a bar where trust me i got a lot of practice. and you are right some locks judt wont work. But the thing is learning a lock that will work all of the time, for instants no one has evr gotten out of a nikyo that I have put on some one but they almost always get out of ikyo. I thinks that is because drunk poeple are used to flailing thier arms about. as always that is just my opinion.
Have a great day.

Alec Corper
03-14-2006, 01:22 PM
Hello Darren,
No disrespect intended, but in order to forestall yet another "Is Aikido really effective?" threads, I can only say, it depends who does it.
Or as I heard one Shihan say in response to the question, "does Aikido work? Mine does."

ChrisHein
03-14-2006, 01:26 PM
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work.

Well this depends on a few factors. First what pins are you applying? some of Aikido's pins have been "softend" so people don't complain as much during training. A good example of this is the Ikkyo pin as it is commonly applied, you just lay the arm down next to the person and hold it there with both arms, any able person will just roll over their own arm and get out from there.

However many of the pins if applied with attention to the shoulder, work well, you must also realize that you must be willing to brake the arm if they wiggle too much. In Juji gatami (common arm bar in both Bjj and Judo) if I were just to "hold" you there and not truly have intentions of braking your arm you could eventually wiggle out, even on a very skilled practitioner. Aikido's "pins" are much the same way, you cannot simply hold them there, and think you have an iron lock down on you attacker, you must threaten to brake if they wiggle, this is no different then Bjj or Judo submission holds.

The third factor is a weapon, I believe the main reason Aikido pins aren't body on (like say a wrestling pin, Bjj pin, or Judo pin) is because you need to keep your body away from the other hand. In Aikido pins you will generally control one arm fully (the one you know is armed) and stay away from and watch the other arm (the one that may be armed but you don't' know about yet), this gives you a superior blend of safety and control in weapons situations. If you want to see how this works, set up your friend in a Nikyo pin, and hold a knife to the back of his neck and see how much wiggling and escaping he can do them. Notice how O-sensei had a tegatana coming down at the end of most of his pins (probably representing a real katana).

-Chris Hein

Ron Tisdale
03-14-2006, 01:32 PM
Nice post Chris...
Best,
Ron

Dajo251
03-14-2006, 01:47 PM
Well this depends on a few factors. First what pins are you applying? some of Aikido's pins have been "softend" so people don't complain as much during training. A good example of this is the Ikkyo pin as it is commonly applied, you just lay the arm down next to the person and hold it there with both arms, any able person will just roll over their own arm and get out from there.


-Chris Hein
I asked my sensei about that ikkyo pin being ineffective, and he asked If I wanted to see an effecteve ikkyo pin well I had a not so soft ikkyo pin done to me, I thought my shoulder was going to be torn from its socket, and there was no way I could fight it wiith out causing great bodily harm to myself, and at the end it did end up with one of his hands at my wrist and the other at the elbow...oh man my shoulder hurts just thinking about that

Kevin Leavitt
03-14-2006, 02:30 PM
Good post Chris. I was going to head in the same direction you did. so no need to repeat. Locks and the application depend on many factors. From the standard aikido approach that most of us study under they are applied correctly. Grappling locks are good and necessary in many situations and frankly I think they should be studied as a part of martial arts. However, in studying aikido, which is typically principle oriented I don't see a need to practice them since they are pointless to the process of conveying the principles.

batemanb
03-14-2006, 02:35 PM
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. !

Yeah they do, if you do them properly. You need to take your focus away from applying the pin, unbalance your uke first, then compromise them, then apply the pin. If they put up a fight, be prepared to use atemi, I don't necessarily mean a smack in the gob, don't exclude it, but look to distract them. You need to step away from fighting with a resistant uke to doing something else. Go ask your sensei why you can't get it to work on non compliant ule's, he's the best person to work with, everyone here will have ideas and opinions but none of us will be on the mat with you to demonstrate.

rgds
Bryan

Ben Eaton
03-14-2006, 02:38 PM
When I had the Ikkyo pin applied to me, at first I thought it was ineffective, but when done properly* and relaxed, kneeling with the tegatanas pinning the arm actually do prevent a person from getting up, a lot of it is being relaxed while the other struggles wildly to get free.
My sensei demonstrated what happens when someone tries to hit you with the other arm, he merely looped his left around mine, rested his knee (I think) in place of the other hand and voila, I was totally helpless.

In my relatively short Aikido experience, if I was applying a pin I may need to resort to more "street-effective" and unorthadox methods if I didn't want to injure the attacker, but I'm confident that with more experience in applying the techniques I would be able to rely mainly upon them instead of falling back on previous experience.
Every lesson I feel I may be getting the hang of a technique, but then I get shown a tiny thing that makes it that little bit more effective. I was also told that out there, whatever you can do to pin them, do it, don't try too hard to make a specific pin work or else it'll be too late.
If in any doubts, ask your sensei. He may, as Daniel found out, demonstrate a non-training pin. :)

*I say properly only in the sense of the way I personally have been shown how to perform the pin, and this in no way reflects changes in methods that may occur from club to club.

Larry Cuvin
03-14-2006, 02:47 PM
Darren,
With my limited experience in Ki Aikido, try this nikkyo pin experiment: Get a good uke that will try hard to get out of the pin. Have him lie down on his/her stomach and place his/her right arm perpendicular to the his/her body. Kneel down so that your knees touches the arm as if you are performing the finish. Place your left "unbendable arm" above the elbow (do not apply force as this will give your uke something to fight with). With your right hand, apply the nikkyo finish by sending the ki from your ukes fingertips back toward his/her head imagining a huge arc. Lastly, relax when you do this. Then, ask your uke to try and get out of the pin.

Your left unbendable are will provide a ceiling or a stop that the uke can't go beyond. Your right hand will provide the excruciating pain (just be carefull not to injure the hand). When done right, this example pin worked all the time in my training.

If you try the experiment, please post the result.
Safe Training,
Larry

Darren
03-14-2006, 02:49 PM
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm . I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

Adman
03-14-2006, 02:50 PM
Locks and the application depend on many factors. Yeah, like how long you've trained.

Not much of anything I did was particularly effective when I was starting out. However, with a little training under your belt, going for a pin, full boar, without an understanding of what can happen to a resistant uke, is downright scary. I suppose this could tie into the "how many times have you gotten hurt? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9961)" thread.

Ron Tisdale
03-14-2006, 02:54 PM
ahem...except of course...IF YOU BREAK THE ARM. In a cooperative or sportive environment, I would not be willing to do that. In other environments...I may well make a different choice.

I qualify that as working.

Best,
Ron

Adman
03-14-2006, 02:55 PM
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DOReally? :confused:

justin
03-14-2006, 03:49 PM
[NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO[/QUOTE]



i think this should read "no matter what I do" as you cant surley speak for everyone else here.

I myself still cringe when i have a good sankyo put on me and i know it is coming.

Nick Simpson
03-14-2006, 04:01 PM
Nothing works forever. Do you need to pin someone for 24 hours? Im fairly sure not. While your pinning someone your mates could be putting the boot in (uncivilized and un-aiki but its a fact) whats the problem with breaking the arm (except in the dojo/sports) if someone is absolutely set on getting up then you WILL have to up the violence factor if you want to keep em down...

bratzo_barrena
03-14-2006, 04:03 PM
If the pin doesn't work is because is not properly applied. Mechanically the aikido locks work and are effective and requiere not much mucsle power. But for what i've seen, most people don't apply them correctly, some assume they are doing them right, but they're not. Some just don't do it right to be gentle with uke; and others make both of those mistakes.
Too much emphasis in the technique but poor instruction on pins are also a problem

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo, Doral, FL

eyrie
03-14-2006, 04:14 PM
The pins can and do work - without breaking uke's shoulder/arm/wrist. If the pins aren't working for you, it's because the structure isn't formed correctly. Limiting the range of motion, creating a base, using underlying anatomical structures etc. are ways to make the pins work. Look up an anatomy reference and experiment gently.

Michael O'Brien
03-14-2006, 04:31 PM
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm . I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

Darren,

For me the question comes to mind "Why did you do the pin?" If I am taking someone down into an ikkyo pin for example then I am trying to approach this using the least amount of violence possible. I don't want to hold them there for an extended period of time. They go down, they feel the pain, they realize (hopefully) this could be a whole lot worse, and they decide to go take out their agressions elsewhere.

If they get up and continue in their stupidity then at that point, yes, perhaps a broken arm, dislocated shoulder, etc may be in order.

The pin works to accomplish the purpose it was designed for when properly applied.

Aiki LV
03-14-2006, 05:01 PM
Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock doesn't work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passive , but with an uncooperative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

:confused: I'm not sure why exactly you asked for others thoughts on this? It seems to me you've made up your mind and have no intention of taking into account what others are saying. If you were really curious about what others thought and wanted to have a discussion you would attempt to refute their point of view. Referring back to your original post instead of coming up with new arguments to counter theirs says to me you want to make a statement, not have a discussion. If that is the case, have no fear I'm sure someone will come along to agree with you and validate your statement. ;)

Robert Rumpf
03-14-2006, 05:04 PM
I may be retreading ground here, but I'll chime in anyway...

To be frank, I too have often wondered about the utility of immobilizing pins in Aikido.. but from a somewhat different perspective. I have often wondered what the purpose of a lasting pin in a non-sporting art is supposed to be.

In a multiple attacker situation, a lasting pin is pretty useless. Even a brief pin is fairly pointless and probably dangerous. I'm sure that there are people who can pin more than one person at once, but I've only seen that done once in an Aikido dojo, and it wasn't taught or meant to be lasting, and that is well beyond the skills of even (I'd guess) most BJJ people.

If the person has a weapon, taking the weapon and/or destroying the person's capacity to attack will be the priority, and after that, the pin is less interesting. If I've got the knife, why do I need to pin them if they keep attacking?

In a lethal force situation or other situation where you're willing to inflict serious damage, a lasting pin is likewise useless. Just do a brief pin to a break. Why would you not just break the person if you can, and move on from there in case their friends arrive?

If you decide to simply restrain someone who is attacking you and you're one-on-one, what's next? Presumably, you send someone else to call for help, or you cow the person into submission by the force of your personality or whatever... Those both sound like weak answers, and anyone who is around to get help would most likely be able to help you smash someone struggling out of your pin, even if you need the help. Likewise, you can smash them yourself or break off a piece of them if they try to struggle out from the pin.

I've had people struggle out of my Aikido pins, typically while my hands or other weapons were inches from their eyes or other vulnerable places. If I was really worried about them escaping, I would have done something more painful or permanent to prevent it.

If you're in a conflict with someone you don't want to damage (a drunk friend) avoidance is probably better than risking pinning for the long term and the potential damage that may incur, or having to wait until they sober up.

I guess that the only real use I can see for pins is to immobilize someone temporarily in a police-like role, or for this type of "I have weak, near allies" situation I mention above. But a policeman would be able to handcuff the person even from an Aikido pin - handcuffs are a more effective pin overall, even than a BJJ pin.

There are I suppose situations you could imagine where a lasting, non-damaging pin might be useful, for a time at least.. but I still don't imagine anything like that being common, and there are other skills sooner in the encounter chain that it would be more advantageous to practice more thoroughly.

That said, what's the point of spending a LOT of time teaching lasting, non-violent pins in a non-sporting art and expecting them to be effective 100% of the time?

There are more interesting and relevant things to teach, unless you want to demonstrate submission for the purposes of a contest (like BJJ or Judo), or you want to bully someone, or unless you just want a pretty way to end your technique.

Until I can get the beginning of my Aikido technique to work correctly, why should I worry about the end overly much?

Just my opinion,
Rob

Michael Douglas
03-14-2006, 05:53 PM
I agree with Robert Rumpf,
to me the pins seem to be a nod to
taking a weapon off the pinned, not
a long term restraint.
Either that, or a position from which to
inflict great pain and force a 'submission'.

I don't think that pointing out that a struggling
non-aikidoka can get out of a lot of people's
ikkyo pins is at all interesting, or even
surprising. I just don't think it is there
for pinning-per-se.

Upyu
03-14-2006, 06:17 PM
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm . I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

Heh, just means you're just copying the "shape" of the pin, and don't have the finer details down. I don't do Aikido, but the instructor at the standup place I train at can do similar techniques (though he got them from DRAJJ) and there isn't any way you can get out of them ;)
I also do BJJ, and with the training I've had in this particular standup, it's pretty hard for the people in my class to snap on an armbar on me if they're (guys that're 180lb+) just using muscle and weight. So it goes both ways, its not a problem just in Aikido.

Maybe you should look a little deeper into what it is you're exactly training. And I wouldn't say it's technique. :D

eyrie
03-14-2006, 06:45 PM
Also consider the possibilties for kaeshi-waza if uke manages to slip the pin. There are many hidden osae komi and kansetsu waza encoded in the ikkyo-rokyo waza. (Well, hidden in plain sight of course!) These waza are the mother of all other technical variations.... and they almost invariably manifest themselves when uke is not passive and being uncooperative.

E.g. Does anyone use the rear hammerlock to effect a takedown into the pin from nikkyo? Or how about switching to gokyo from ikkyo if uke attempts to pull their arm out from under the pin? Or transitioning into juji-gatame or reverse juji? How many here exploit the Golgi tendon reflex for an ikkyo pin?

I like it when uke struggles - it gives me more opportunity to do other things - in an aiki fashion of course!

So, next time uke struggles, take it for what it is - a gift to explore and learn.

;)

Adam Alexander
03-14-2006, 08:26 PM
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work.

Relative to context, very true. In fact, relative to context, all Aikido techniques require a "passive" uke. It's your job, as an Aikidoka, to train at them so much that they become muscle-memory so that an "uncooperative" uke becomes cooperative without realizing that he/she is now cooperative without even realizing.

Approaching a situation to use an Aikido technique from the perspective "I'm going to attempt first control" doesn't work because our techniques are contingent on context (In fact, as Fooks pointed out, ultimately, so are BJJ's...Only, apparently, it's easier to muscle BJJ and make it work) and the conditions that make a first control technique applicable change too quick for you to react simply off of conscious thought--it has to be reflex.

The pins do work. I believe your problem is that they can't be muscled.

So, the statement shouldn't be, IMO, "the pins don't work" the statement should be "I don't know how to make them work."

Again, this is all contextual. As others have stated, there's plenty of ways to muscle it.

eyrie
03-14-2006, 08:37 PM
Relative to context, very true. In fact, relative to context, all Aikido techniques require a "passive" uke. It's your job, as an Aikidoka, to train at them so much that they become muscle-memory so that an "uncooperative" uke becomes cooperative without realizing that he/she is now cooperative without even realizing.


I think it's more to do with getting the structural and anatomical juxtapositions correct more than progamming "muscle-memory". If you're training incorrectly, you're imprinting an incorrect "muscle-memory" anyway.

xuzen
03-14-2006, 08:40 PM
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!

Chris H, made some very interesting remark and I tend to agree with him. OK, more of the matter at hand...

Let's take Ikkyo / ikkajo as a working example... if the pin does not work, it can easily transition to hiji shime / waki gatame... and that is a high probability lock. Many BJJ'er utilizes it. Many aikido players tend to stop when something out of the ordinary happens. The trick is to roll with it and continue with the flow.

Now let's take nikyo / nikajo. This pin is called ude hineri. I think this is what the MMA people call the "Kimura" yes?. Most of the time, the escape comes from inexperience shite fumbling the locks and the uke escaping before the final lock sets in. There is nothing wrong with the lock, it depends entirely on the method of execution.

Having said that, the following is some of the tricks i used to have a more secure hold.
1) Use your forward shin to press down on the back of the neck of uncooperative uke. The press is such that uke cannot move his neck and his neck is pinned to the floor, without any possibility of movements.
2) Should uke manage to escape the pin by rolling away... transition to juji gatame. Many experience aikido teacher has back ground in judo as well, and they can probably show you how to do the transition. It is not difficult. Again, my point to take home is.. do not stop, roll with the flow and transition to another technique.
Or you could like Chris Hein suggest.. take out your wakizashi and slice the uke's neck and be done with it. (oops... this is the 21st century not feudal Japan... I gotta remember to take my medication ;) )

clwk
03-14-2006, 08:44 PM
[All right, I have no idea how to use this software correctly, but:]

Darren Sez:

>I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can
>honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't
>just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after
>training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they
>only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!

Hmmmmmmm. Call me a lurker.

What is that supposed to mean, "final lock or pin of aikido moves . . . only work if uke cooperates"?

You say, "just take my word for it", but actually, I'll pass. I'll be the first one to say that many people don't apply the 'pins' correctly, but:

Are you saying that, if nage is allowed to accurately find the pin without resistance, that uke can then uncooperatively escape from it? Or are you saying that a resisting uke can always prevent nage from finding the pin (apparently without harm to self)? The distinction is important, but not necessarily decisive. Exactly at what point the uncooperation kicks in might be relevant. For example, you could certainly resist anyone's pin by failing to cooperate to the extent of electing never to be present in their physical space, right?

Barring that semantic option, are you realistically considering the threat of uncooperative force? In other words, you are aware, are you not, that the 'pins' are softening of 'breaks', right?

If your point is that, in a completely free situation, where both 'uke' and 'nage' have relinquished their 'cooperative' roles and are instead just a couple of fellas intent on banging the crap out of each other, possibly fatally, then sure - I'll buy that its unlikely anyone will end up in a 'pin'. However, if your point is that given some kind of 'leverage' into the pinning situation the technical scenario is just infeasible for nage, I'm sort of doubtful - unless uke has specially trained ability to resist. That's entirely possible too, but then we're just talking arm-wrestling with 8:1 odds - good work if you can get it.

If you really really really feel this way, and are willing to sign comprehensive waivers, I'd be happily willing to bet you a pint of whatever beer you prefer that this isn't so.

Sorry if this is more than you or the other lurkers wanted to hear, but enough is enough. Please clarify what position you are willing to let nage start in, and whether or not you are comfortable with the possiblity of having your arm, nose, or ribs broken and/or shoulder/elbow dislocated, etc. This is not a threat or even a challenge. I'm really actually curious whether you've honestly thought about this like it seems - or you're bluffing for the sake of 'curiosity' or 'controversy'. I'm 100% comfortable with the possibility of buying you a pint after you refute my admittedly pathetic attempts to screw you into the mat with a pin - all in the name of science. My interest is entirely mechanical. I get your point, I just disagree.

Chhi'mèd

ps: I don't check this forum very often, so hopefully someone else will email the list I listen to if you take me up on this.

Nafis Zahir
03-14-2006, 10:28 PM
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!

I get so tired of the BJJ guys talking trash. This is such a lie! It all has to do with the person. If I apply a pin to a BJJ guy who is not cooperating, it will just be that much more painful to him. By the way, I once held down a 18 year old boy with a Ikkyo pin. He was very strong, worked out with weights, and very cut. I had him face down with a Ikkyo pin to his elbow. I only used one hand and I am more than twice his age! I told him that he was young and strong and he shouldn't let an old man like me hold him down with one hand. When I told him to get up, he replied, "I can't."

I sure that when you apply a pin to someone and they motion to get out of it, the angle may change and you will have to take another route. But that happens to all grapplers - BJJ practioners and I have seen it with Wrestlers. So spare me the garbage talk.

Upyu
03-14-2006, 11:16 PM
I get so tired of the BJJ guys talking trash. This is such a lie! It all has to do with the person. If I apply a pin to a BJJ guy who is not cooperating, it will just be that much more painful to him. By the way, I once held down a 18 year old boy with a Ikkyo pin. He was very strong, worked out with weights, and very cut. I had him face down with a Ikkyo pin to his elbow. I only used one hand and I am more than twice his age! I told him that he was young and strong and he shouldn't let an old man like me hold him down with one hand. When I told him to get up, he replied, "I can't."

I sure that when you apply a pin to someone and they motion to get out of it, the angle may change and you will have to take another route. But that happens to all grapplers - BJJ practioners and I have seen it with Wrestlers. So spare me the garbage talk.

In all fairness I don't think the original poster was talking trash. He's just voicing a concern that he encountered after training with resisting opponents, and found it to be two different beasts alltogether.

That being said, your comparison of you holding down an 18 year old, heavier, more muscle, and cut than you are, isn't the best one.
Those people are the "easiest" to hold down ;) (Even in BJJ)
It's always the ones that're heavy, maleable/soft, and know exactly how to use their structure/body that give the hardest time.

Which is why I said earlier, maybe for some people (im not pointing any fingers), more thought needs to be given as to what exactly is trying to be taught in the basic techniques...
(and imho, the whole changing of vectors and switching techs to still achieve the lock is still just scraping the surface. the lock should work no matter what resistance/recourse he uses without using "riki" on your part. ^^; )

Nafis Zahir
03-14-2006, 11:51 PM
I agree that you make a good point. I don't know if you study Aikido, but whenever I watch the Shihans do a demonstration, they are able to apply the technique or pin to any and everyone, even if the person is not cooperating (taking ukemi). That is the level I would like to reach. I have been able to apply pins to people who were 'soft', as you stated. I will admit that the application is different, but it is still not fair to say that they only work on someone who is cooperating.

ChrisHein
03-15-2006, 01:59 AM
Darren,
Nothing works forever, even if I tied you up, given enough time you'd likely get out.

You should also remember your ability level vs theirs is always a factor when you are dealing with resistance. When my Bjj teacher pins me, I'm usually pretty pinned, however if I apply the same pin to him, it doesn't work, it’s the same pin, but he’s better then me. "Working" is always relative to who you want it to work on, and what you are capable of doing. If you try doing the same pin to a Bjj Purple belt that you do to a white belt your opinion as to it working or not will probably be very different.

All I can tell you is; from my experience, they (Aikido pins) work well when applied well, when pinning someone who is not more experienced then you.

-Chris Hein

batemanb
03-15-2006, 02:03 AM
.

Or how about switching to gokyo from ikkyo if uke attempts to pull their arm out from under the pin? Or transitioning into juji-gatame or reverse juji? How many here exploit the Golgi tendon reflex for an ikkyo pin?

An effective way of stopping uke struggling is to try tickling them in the ribs, and no, I'm not joking. Obviously not everyone's ticklish, but worth a try ;) . If that doesn't work, for ikkyo, just press one hand on the back of the elbow and lift uke's wrist with your other hand, it soon stops a struggle (recommend doing this slowly in a training environment).

Alternatively (there's quite a few ;) ) sit across uke's arm (if you've seen any old film footage of Kaiso). Doing this applies a yonkyo effect on the back of the forearm using your shin, whilst applying a lot of body weight on uke's elbow. If you've stretched the arm well in the first instance, uke won't be rolling out much, nor will he be able to get up easily. Remembering that you have two free hands from this option........... :D

Or as you go into seiza for the pin, come down with your knee over the ribs. This will cause uke to expel a lot of air and take a lot of fight out of him, possibly, probably cracking ribs (again, recommend being very careful with this in practice).

These are just a couple of options, there's a whole lot more to explore....

elsewhere in the thread

Yeah, like how long you've trained.

i think this should read "no matter what I do" as you cant surley speak for everyone else here.

There's also been a lot of other good advice, basically requires more practice.

rgds
Bryan

Aristeia
03-15-2006, 02:17 AM
many of Aikido's pins are not that different from BJJ's omoplata - basically a bent arm shoulder lock. One of the guys I used to train is a police officer, and according to him the finishing pins were the most effective and most frequently used part of his Aikido arsenal. Apparently they can be used to good effect. Yes sometimes that will result in broken limbs if uke fights beyond movement that is safe for them. That's on them. I was rolling with a BJJ blue belt last year and happened to find my self in a position to apply a pin. He went straight to the mat and tapped immediately. So lets not jump to any premature conclusions on lack of effectiveness.

Michael Meister
03-15-2006, 04:07 AM
Well most things have already been said. The point is, there is no 100% no fail technique, there is no 100% no fail pin either. It all depends on the people involved, on their ability, on there seriousness, on how much pain they are willing to take, and probable the phase of the moon, or whatever else comes your mind.
The point is, if a technique or a pin fails, you adjust and do something else. At least that's the theory... i admit I'm not yet very good at that.
And by the way, I have moved out of a pin, that could be seen as some variation of Nikkyo pin on the ground. I just moved my body around lock. It still would have been able for Nage, to adjust to another pin, but the objective was to find the weak points of the pin, and possible ways to limit my mobility to get out. Each round she changed the pin a bit, and at the end reached a point, where I was not willing to move out, though it still would have possible, with just a little more stress to the shoulder, than I was willing to take in a training environment.

I guess my point is, if something doesn't work, adjust. If you can't adjust, learn it. And if you're in a real fight, well learn real fast...
Life is dangerous, as matter of fact it' so dangerous, that you will not survive it.

Alex Megann
03-15-2006, 04:15 AM
Umm, Darren, since you are in London, why don't you go along to one of Kanetsuka Sensei's classes and tell him you don't think the pins work...

Alex

http://www.ryushinkan.org/details.htm

batemanb
03-15-2006, 05:17 AM
Umm, Darren, since you are in London, why don't you go along to one of Kanetsuka Sensei's classes and tell him you don't think the pins work...

:D :D :D

just cringing with the thought of doing that :eek:

Peter Goldsbury
03-15-2006, 05:37 AM
Umm, Darren, since you are in London, why don't you go along to one of Kanetsuka Sensei's classes and tell him you don't think the pins work...

Alex

http://www.ryushinkan.org/details.htm

Hear, hear!!

Peter Seth
03-15-2006, 07:01 AM
Dont just try to apply locks/pins in the traditional aikido manner ( they are ok for a baseline) - but things move on and you should constantly adapt to any situation.

raul rodrigo
03-15-2006, 07:05 AM
Hear, hear!!

Yes, I think this is put up or shut up time. I think the only real problem here is you can't apply the lock properly or are being uke for people who have the same problem. No offense.

Nick Simpson
03-15-2006, 07:15 AM
I'd like to add that I have used the ikkyo pin to hold a friend down on a pool table and he got quite angry and shouted 'let me up' and thrashed around but he couldnt get up. So on that occaison mine worked.

xuzen
03-15-2006, 08:31 PM
...<snip>...It's always the ones that're heavy, malleable/soft, and know exactly how to use their structure/body that give the hardest time.
Ha ha ha John, this description sounds like my Judo coach. This type of players makes you feel like wrestling with a grizzly bear.

Which is why I said earlier, maybe for some people (I'm not pointing any fingers), more thought needs to be given as to what exactly is trying to be taught in the basic techniques...
If the situation is kihon waza (basic techniques), then I agree that the emphasis should be given to learning the basic mechanic of the technique/lock.

and IMHO, the whole changing of vectors and switching techs to still achieve the lock is still just scraping the surface. the lock should work no matter what resistance/recourse he uses without using "riki" on your part.
John, there is always two side to a coin, nothing is in such black and white and ideal. In an ideal world, our car would run with 100% fuel efficiency, there will be no drag, no tyre wear and tear, prices of fuel/gas will stay eternally low, and we will have an endless supply of gas/fuel.

John, I am saying that in an ideal setting, the single lock should do the job, and that is what kata teaches us. It ends with the lock, uke will be compliant and tap for submission.

In the not so ideal world, shite fumbles with the lock; uke is not compliant, and that is where having a plan B, C or D comes in handy and that is where I am pointing too... a good knowledge of transition is useful in such situation.

Again, such knowledge cannot be gain by just doing kata/kihon alone although kihon is a good starting point for better things to come. That is why an alive environment of training is good, which I do advocate.

You do BJJ, you should know, don't you. You get a pin, uke escape, what do you do? You transition to a more advantages position to reapply pin/lock/strangle...whatever.

OK. I get off my soap box now.

Jory Boling
03-16-2006, 06:09 AM
Just to reiterate what everyone else seems to be saying, the ikkyo pin from my original sensei is much different from the one that was applied by everybody else. However, at my new dojo, i don't think they even show the full pin. I started doing it and was told not to for risk of hurting my classmates. in another class they did the pin by sitting seiza on my arm. it was beyond my power to put up much of a fight in that circumstance. but then again, neither case was life or death.

Lyle Bogin
03-16-2006, 03:14 PM
I think we should differentiate between dojo pins and full restraining holds a bit.

My pins in the dojo reflect my desire to protect uke from unwanted injury. I think a good uke will break free of a pin lacking concentration and the essential elements. But once uke starts resisting with everything he she/has the pin must turn into a full restraining hold, complete with higher risk applications of force.

bratzo_barrena
03-16-2006, 03:24 PM
A pin must be effective by its own mechanics, some times implies some pain, some times don't. But considering that 'for protecting uke and avoid damage' pins are not supposed to be effective, and thus uke could break free is wrong. The pin is nopt being properly applied. Pins are effective by the way they act onte the body structure, without causing severe damage. And if some pain is necessary, so be it. a little pain doesn't kill anyone, does it?

Adam Alexander
03-16-2006, 03:45 PM
I think it's more to do with getting the structural and anatomical juxtapositions correct more than progamming "muscle-memory". If you're training incorrectly, you're imprinting an incorrect "muscle-memory" anyway.

Each his own. I find that in my style, there's more of stealing the technique and having to experiment to get the right positioning, timing, etc.

In my style, I'd say that "training incorrectly" would be a case of not training conscientously and finding the technique in the movement.

eyrie
03-16-2006, 05:02 PM
Well Jean, how would the average Joe know if what they were doing was correct, even if they trained conscientiously? I would say that Darren is a conscientious student, otherwise he would not have asked the question. And if he thought it was correct, he wouldn't be asking. Granted there might be some "stealing" of technique involved, but this is really basic stuff that his instructor should have covered, prior to experimentation - for training safety reasons.

To each their own, perhaps. But I wish people would get over this "s3cr3t d34dly knowledge" rubbish. Aikido is no more and no less devastating than any other martial art. This stuff is easily explained and based on physical laws and anatomical structures. That we choose not to apply these techniques brutally in training is merely in "the way".

Skribbles
03-16-2006, 05:30 PM
Well this depends on a few factors. First what pins are you applying? some of Aikido's pins have been "softend" so people don't complain as much during training. A good example of this is the Ikkyo pin as it is commonly applied, you just lay the arm down next to the person and hold it there with both arms, any able person will just roll over their own arm and get out from there.


k so im sure someone else may have commented on this already but i dont got enough time to read the whole thread... just got to this and wanted to make a comment before i go to work

...
if you put their elbow between your legs and apply pressure it causes some discomfort in their elbow.. rather its effective or not i dunno im only a yellowbelt but it seemed to work on me when i was trying to wiggle outta my sensai's ikkyo pin hehe
anywho <3

Mark Freeman
03-16-2006, 06:28 PM
I can only agree with those that have said if an aikido lock is applied properly it is very effective.
Of course, an ikkyo take down and pin can be done quite ineffectively, but done properly it is very difficult to escape from. If you really want to stop someone struggling, lift the knee closest to the body and roll your shin bone across the arm about an inch or so just above the elbow. The effect this has as it rolls the muscle away from a nerve spot that lies beneath, is usually enough to stop them. :D
Try it, but as this is aikido, be very aware of uke's reaction and don't apply any more pressure than is needed ;)

regards,
Mark

eyrie
03-16-2006, 06:38 PM
Ah... the good ol' Golgi tendon reflex. ;)

If you know how to do this with the shin, you should be able to do it with a tegatana. If you understand how it works, you can also do it without tegatana. :)

But that's only a small part of "augmenting" an ikkyo pin... it has more to do with the juxtaposition of uke's arm with their body, and the manner in which the elbow and shoulder is pinned to the base and all the way to their feet.

Go back to what Rob John said... ;)

Mark Freeman
03-16-2006, 07:05 PM
Ah... the good ol' Golgi tendon reflex. ;)

If you know how to do this with the shin, you should be able to do it with a tegatana. If you understand how it works, you can also do it without tegatana. :)

But that's only a small part of "augmenting" an ikkyo pin... it has more to do with the juxtaposition of uke's arm with their body, and the manner in which the elbow and shoulder is pinned to the base and all the way to their feet.

Go back to what Rob John said... ;)

Whoops, I should have read back thru the post, I see that I have just repeated a few post. Oh well through repetition we slowly learn.

Could you put tegatana into english for me, I want to know exactly what you mean, and I am at a slight disadvantage regarding japanese terms, thanks.

cheers,
Mark

ChrisHein
03-16-2006, 07:09 PM
Knife hand, typical "ku-rhad-ie chop".

eyrie
03-16-2006, 07:11 PM
krotty... and it's not a chop - more like slice. ;)

Mark Freeman
03-16-2006, 07:13 PM
Thanks chaps, now I know exactly what you mean ;)

cheers,
Mark

Ketsan
03-16-2006, 07:21 PM
A lot of people forget to pin the shoulder which is where most problems arise in my experience, especially with nikkyo and sankyo.
If uke has flexible joints then often rather than pinning them nikkyo and sankyo just lift the shoulder off the floor giving uke space to roll over and counter.
If you keep the shoulder pinned you should be in a position where any attempt to get up involves them trying to lift your body weight with one shoulder and maybe one arm.

eyrie
03-16-2006, 07:58 PM
Mechanically, and anatomically - yes. But it's really locking their center through the anatomical structures that's the real key.

ChrisHein
03-16-2006, 11:45 PM
Mechanically, and anatomically - yes. But it's really locking their center through the anatomical structures that's the real key.


Don't know if I agree with that.

Nikyo and sankyo pins are pins isolating a particular part of the body, they don't really go into the center once you are pinning them. It's easy (and should be done) when standing, but once they are laying prone, you are not moving into the center anymore.

From a standing position you can get into their center because you find their point of balance, but when they are laying prone they are naturally balanced by the position, (like a dead guy who has no where else to fall) so their "center" is no longer available to you via the arm.

-Chris Hein

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 01:47 AM
Don't know if I agree with that.

Nikyo and sankyo pins are pins isolating a particular part of the body, they don't really go into the center once you are pinning them. It's easy (and should be done) when standing, but once they are laying prone, you are not moving into the center anymore.

From a standing position you can get into their center because you find their point of balance, but when they are laying prone they are naturally balanced by the position, (like a dead guy who has no where else to fall) so their "center" is no longer available to you via the arm.

-Chris Hein


...and then again, there is always starting over from the beginning to see what it is that you have missed. For example, that there is more than one center. There are many centers. There is also the center of centers as decoded by O-Sensei that comes from "Amenominakanushi O-Kami" in Kojiki... Oops, forget that I mentioned that. "This is not the Aikido you are looking for..." I would be somewhat impressed if anyone would send me a private email with some details about the thing I didn't mention. Thanks

Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher.












See I forgot, the only thing we can mention these days thanks to the white noise of the few overly posting, non-aikido postulating rather than practicing types is something about Oomoto and neo confucian, buddhist or cosmological references having a whole lot of nothing to do with O-Sensei or his Aikido. Yeah, and that being an attempt to clear things up about Aikido, Kokyu, etc. ... (Hey I put this way on the bottom of my post here, cause you weren't supposed to read it) Now get back to the rest of the thread!



.

ChrisHein
03-17-2006, 03:26 AM
Shaun,
I'm the center of the universe, or so my momma told me.

-Chris Hein

Upyu
03-17-2006, 03:36 AM
Mechanically, and anatomically - yes. But it's really locking their center through the anatomical structures that's the real key.

locking their center through the use of... <drum roll>

sorry that was obnoxious, but I couldn't help it.

Btw you know none of that was aimed at you Teo :D

Shaun:
Very englightening as always :yuck:

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 07:21 AM
Shaun,
I'm the center of the universe, or so my momma told me.

-Chris Hein

1. Yeah, but she doesn't study aikido.... Does she?

2. Okay, but you are only one of many centers.

3. Even so, do you know to what the center of centers refers?


In any case I enjoyed your reply. It is clear you are only an egg... as am I.



.

roosvelt
03-17-2006, 08:33 AM
I would be somewhat impressed if anyone would send me a private email with some details about the thing I didn't mention. Thanks

Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher.



Here we go again. I-know-better-but-I-won't-tell-you shaun.




the only thing we can mention these days thanks to the white noise of the few overly posting,
.

Sending out more white noise doesn't help the matter either.




I know it's not correct to judge a teacher by his students' behaviour in the forum. I think you're a nice guy and that. But the way you're exchaning information makes me wonder if the rumors about Mr. Seagals are true. At least the inherent cockiness may be a factor of generating unwanted mis-information.

Mark Freeman
03-17-2006, 09:18 AM
It is clear you are only an egg... as am I.
.

And I'm a chicken, now we can argue which of us was here first! ;)

p.s. what does it mean to be an egg??

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 10:15 AM
Here we go again. I-know-better-but-I-won't-tell-you shaun. Sending out more white noise doesn't help the matter either.
Mr. Roosvelt,

Thanks for your retort. I can see exactly what you are saying here. What I will say is that when I formatted my original reply, I inadvertently put two non-related points in close proximity.

When I said "I would be somewhat impressed if anyone would send me a private email with some details about the thing I didn't mention." it related only to the preceding paragraph. It did not relate to my next point where I said "Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher." The latter was a statement which only related to Chris Hein's original conclusion stated in his post. So sorry if I caused any confusion with that.

As for your point that I was inferring that "I know better but I won't tell you," I would have to disagree. You see I made these very clear statements:

1. "...there is always starting over from the beginning to see what it is that you have missed."

2. "...that there is more than one center."

3. "There are many centers."

4. "There is also the center of centers."

5. "...decoded by O-Sensei that comes from "Amenominakanushi O-Kami" in Kojiki."

There were more, but they are not hidden points designed to provide wonderment to the masses of unenlightened.

To once again provide a bit of clarity as to my earlier remarks, when I said, Of course, you could ask your teacher for a better explanation. If he doesn't have one and he can't send you to someone who does, you may just have found out that it is time to find another teacher. I was inferring that Chris should ask his teacher to explain things in a way that would allow him to broaden his seemingly narrow perspective. I was in no way making any conclusions about his teacher and most certainly not relative to me, as you seem to deem I had done. I don't know his teacher, nor his teaching methodology, so I would be very unlikely to draw any meaningful conclusions about he, or it, respectively.

My real point comes from a larger context. It was that although I may clearly speak to some, my point is missed by others. I believe that you have clearly demonstrated this with your reply. Yes, it may be a statement about me. It may also be looked at as a statement about those who can't understand what I am saying. However, coming from a holistic approach, I prefer to see it as a statement of the overall relationship between me and the other person. If this were in a dojo setting, I would equate it to an ineffective teacher-student relationship rather than say one or the other person is at fault. Should that be the case, and the circumstances insurmountable, the best thing to do may be to move on.

My feeling is that sometimes, regardless of the time invested in a teacher, dojo, organization or what have you, I think it prudent to start over and seek things from another perspective. If that means moving away, or seeking from another source, it is done in an effort to move oneself forward rather than as a means to invalidate a person who contributed to us or our past efforts. It is acknowledging the errors of the past that bring us to the conclusion to move ourselves forward.

I believe the examples I gave were pertinent, and might help spark an idea that already is floating around in someone's mind. I believe that my overall context outlined above is a dispassionate reality check that was by no means meant to harm, lay blame or mock someone's ability or understanding. I hardly see it as "Sending out more white noise which doesn't help the matter either. However, I wouldn't be so sure about the intent or desired effect of your post. Might you also clarify (for the rest of us) your position on those points?

As for these sentiments:
I know it's not correct to judge a teacher by his students' behaviour in the forum. I think you're a nice guy and that. But the way you're exchaning information makes me wonder if the rumors about Mr. Seagals are true. At least the inherent cockiness may be a factor of generating unwanted mis-information.

I would have to say that I believe that you can judge a teacher by his students, and visa-versa. Also, I am not exchanging information in this forum. I do so in private, both on the mat and off. I simply offered up my perspective, a few ideas to be considered, along with a prod and a push to encourage a person to take a step and confront their own current level of comfort. As for me being a nice guy, well I have been accurately accused of being much worse. In truth I am not trying to be nice at all. If I was trying to be nice, it and I would be false. On another message board I use the tag line, "A real villain is always preferable to a fake hero. I can see by the nature of your posts that in your own way it would seem that you agree.

Lastly, as for your comments about Seagal Sensei, I will only say that wondering about rumors is like investing in yesterday - quite pointless by my account. One thing for sure, in the time I was fortunate enough to be connected with Seagal Sensei I came to see that he knew how to be himself at all times. This is a great power. As with all great powers - just like a double edged sword - it can work for you or against you. This is why we must all continue to train.

Ganbattemasu



.

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 10:18 AM
And I'm a chicken, now we can argue which of us was here first! ;)

p.s. what does it mean to be an egg??

Well, you would have to ask Robert A. Heinlein what it means to be a Stranger in a Strange Land. Might I recommend the unabridged version.

Shall we head back to the thread?



Namaste



.

roosvelt
03-17-2006, 11:44 AM
Ganbattemasu

.

????

Thanks for the reply.

I have a question. A nage is lying on his back on the mat, arm outstreched, a uke is sitting on his arm. The nage lifts the uke up.
How does it be done?

I hope you can answer the machanism in this.



Disclaimer: I don't know how it's done. The answer is not important to me now. I have enough stuff to work on for another 3 years at least to get me into a basic "ki" level. I was looking for short cut. It seems there is none but hard work every day. Now, it's just curiosity.

ChrisHein
03-17-2006, 11:51 AM
Shaun,
I did start over, I left Aikido all together, I found some neat stuff, and came back very excited about Aikido.

There is more then one center, yes. I can be centered, you can be centered, the universe can be centered, yet it is very neat maybe there is only one center (the divine light that comes in through a part in the clouds),. That is all fine and well, but I was talking about a persons physical balance point as commonly referred to as the "center".

I think I've hatched.

-Chris

Upyu
03-17-2006, 12:23 PM
????

Thanks for the reply.

I have a question. A nage is lying on his back on the mat, arm outstreched, a uke is sitting on his arm. The nage lifts the uke up.
How does it be done?

I hope you can answer the machanism in this.



Disclaimer: I don't know how it's done. The answer is not important to me now. I have enough stuff to work on for another 3 years at least to get me into a basic "ki" level. I was looking for short cut. It seems there is none but hard work every day. Now, it's just curiosity.


Dude, that's too easy for him. :D
Even I can do a reduced version of that. :cool:

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 12:23 PM
Thanks for the reply.
You are quite welcome. Thank you for reading taking it in.
I have a question. A nage is lying on his back on the mat, arm outstreched, a uke is sitting on his arm. The nage lifts the uke up. How does it be done?

I hope you can answer the machanism in this.
Well without seeing the demonstration it would be impossible to tell. Even with seeing it, there are more than likely several methods. However, for the sheer joy in understanding the question without seeing the imaginary demo, I would need to know when you say, "...the nage lifts the uke up." do you mean the uke rises (falls, is thrown or what have you) off of nage's arm, or Nage raises his arm (and uke with it) where it looks like Uke is sitting on Nage's outstretched arm? The former I have seen and been on the receiving end of many many times. The latter I believe is mere fantasy, that is until I have been on the receiving end of it.
Disclaimer: I don't know how it's done. The answer is not important to me now. I have enough stuff to work on for another 3 years at least to get me into a basic "ki" level. I was looking for short cut. It seems there is none but hard work every day. Now, it's just curiosity.
Hard work is great is magical in two very specific ways. First is for those who will understand as it leads them where they expect to go. The second even more magical because for those who will never understand it leads them both in the opposite direction of where they expect to go and lets them believe they have arrived. I am sure you already understand exacty what it is I am saying.

????

Ganbatte - means Hold on; Go for it; Keep at it
Ganbatte (masu or kudasai) are other ways it may be used.



.

...

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 12:27 PM
Shaun:
Very englightening as always :yuck:

really? How so?



.

Josh Reyer
03-17-2006, 12:56 PM
Ganbatte - means Hold on; Go for it; Keep at it
Ganbatte (masu or kudasai) are other ways it may be used.


頑張る ganbaru - to persevere, to do one's best, to "hang in there"
頑張って ganbatte - gerund form
頑張ってください ganbatte kudasai - "Do your best." "Hang in there." "Good luck."
頑張って(い)ます ganbatte-(i)masu - "I'm doing my best." "I'm hanging in there." "I'm perservering."

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 02:38 PM
Shaun,
I did start over, I left Aikido all together, I found some neat stuff, and came back very excited about Aikido.
Maybe yes, maybe no as only you really know for sure. Most often when people begin again, they do so from the point they believe at which they left off. Neat stuff is well, neat. However gather up enough of it and all you have is reason to find a bigger place to live. My recent effort has been to identify where I have done just that and then find ways to pare my tricks and goodies down to the basic level and isolate one of O-Sensei's training methodologies found within the his Misogi-no-Gyo. It is wonderful and depressing when I find something that has been staring me in the face for so long. Then I get to go back and watch the video tapes of my earliest time in Japan and hear and see that it was explained to me right from the beginning. I simply had too much in the way of seeing it.
There is more then one center, yes. I can be centered, you can be centered, the universe can be centered, yet it is very neat maybe there is only one center (the divine light that comes in through a part in the clouds),.
Chris, yes that is all very true, but I am not talking about metaphors. I am talking about simultaneous points of conversion around which activity flows in circular arcs - arcs whose linear motion occur along various planes and differentiating angles of orientation.
That is all fine and well, but I was talking about a persons physical balance point as commonly referred to as the "center".
Chris, let's go back to your original point (about which I made my original comments)
Nikyo and sankyo pins are pins isolating a particular part of the body, they don't really go into the center once you are pinning them. It's easy (and should be done) when standing, but once they are laying prone, you are not moving into the center anymore.
At one point in my training, I too held the same view. However I found that I had to rely on strength and speed in relation to an attacker's reaction time to what I was doing. While this can work, I found that when someone is either stronger or faster, it often does not. Of course this view I held at the time allowed me to pursue my understanding that the joint locks were just that - joint locks - they were either based upon pain compliance or damage. I understood this as Aikido, and rectified it as such because it was uke who decided if he wanted to comply or be injured. However by training with another teacher at another point in my training I came to realize several things.

1. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is committed to harming someone.

2. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is on drugs and can not feel what is being done to them, or is on alcohol, and reaction times being slower they get injured while they are trying to de-escalate the situation.

3. Pain is not required or needed, nor is it even the goal of aikido. Since the antithesis can be achieved as a way of neutralizing the strength and speed one-ups man-ship contests that often are passed off as aikido, it is actually the desired methodology

4. (most importantly) that joints actually work in two ways - they can be locked and unlocked. The natural state of the joint is unlocked. This is so we have the flexibility to do things. If we did not have any joints you might imagine how difficult life would be. This also means that the natural order is for an attacker to lock them (i.e. when making a fist, or avoiding nage's lock) where by the next natural action would be to once again unlock them.

Detail
If I give away my intention of attacking someone's wrist, as in what many people do when they think of nikyo, then I give a signal to my attacker to lock the wrist. We have all run into that scenario in our training. I am often asked how do I get uke to "unlock" so that I can then (re)lock uke's wrist with nikyo? As an answer, I all too often hear, "Oh that is the time for atemi... " and that is certainly one way of approaching the waza. However, there is another way. Since the natural progression of uke's joint is from unlocked to locked, rather than trying to find a way to unlock it in an attempt to apply our own lock - only to have uke initialize another effort to avoid having nage lock it - I can use the understanding that uke is trying to avoid nage trying to lock the wrist. Rather than trying to apply a lock to the wrist, I allow nage's joint to achieve its ground state - that being unlocked. There are two levels of achieving this. The first as you might imagine is to draw uke's intention in another direction. As I have indicated this can be done with atemi, but then we are in the domain of reaction and that may not always be preferable. The second is to not lead it to be locked in the first place.

If you are following me then you quickly realize that this only leads right back into the "Nage tries to lock Uke's wrist while Uke tries to avoid the lock" scenario. However, as I mentioned that is one way of approaching the waza. Another way is to use the unlocking method (i.e. maintaining the ground state of the joint) because there is no time involved in this process:

T=delta(S1 & S2) where T equals the difference in time between state one and state two. If uke is remains at the ground state, T=0. Time is relative at all points along the line except for two points:

1. When time equals zero

and

2. When time equals infinity

Since space/time is curved, we understand that both point one and point two are the same point. This is where Aiki lives and the point for which we must stand to do Aikido. That is the reason we continue to train.

Since we have the joint already unlocked by keeping it this state we can use it to connect to the center. If it is already locked, nage simply moves to the next joint in line, or any other along the path. The goal is to reach Uke's center. Nage can do so using Uke's wrist, elbow, shoulder hip, knee, ankle, finger, toe, neck. These we know as kansetsu waza (joint locks) but I prefer to call them shapes instead of locks. It is really not necessary to even grab the joint when the shape can be maintained. By extending this idea Nage can use almost any point along Uke's body to access Uke's center. This we know as kokyu nage. Once again we are describing shapes that are maintained at one level and altered at another level at the same time. By extending this idea it matters not what Uke's orientation is to the ground (the earth). He can be standing, prone, in the air, and, (going against the accepted grain these days) so can Nage. It is not necessary for Nage to be touching the ground to achieve aiki, as aiki may be achieved while both uke and nage are in mid air. Aiki is in itself a grounded state where time equals both zero and infinity. I am not talking about metaphysics, cosmologies or metaphors. I am specifically speaking within a physical realm.

Okay I went trough all of that, but once again go back to your statement:
That is all fine and well, but I was talking about a persons physical balance point as commonly referred to as the "center".
It is certainly true when you make that statement and then use it as the principle upon which you based comments which followed that all is in order in said paradigm However, when considering the many physical concentric centers and the ability and desire to use the joints as an unlocking mechanism versus a locking mechanism it opens up another avenue for each of us to consider and which to adapt.

In my opinion, joint locking and the like is Ju-Jitsu. I like Ju-Jitsu in its many incarnations. However Ju-Jitsu is not aikido. Using Aiki, as a method to achieve some form of lock is what I would call Aiki-Jujitsu. Once again, Aiki-Jujitsu is not aikido. Aikido is simply different than those two things. You may care for one, I for another, and still someone else for the third. That is what makes for horse racing and the UFC.

It is important that each of us, regardless of our personal take, or particular preference realize that if we are going to discuss Aikido that we clarify as best as we are able at the moment if we mean O-Sensei's Aikido (whatever that may be) or something else. If we see O-Sensei's Aikido, then we can discuss things in one way. However, if we, as has become the fashion of late, want to discuss other things, that we admit out loud that we are not discussing O-Sensei's Aikido, his methodologies in the way that he saw them, used them, taught them, demonstrated them... etc. Otherwise we reduce ourselves to bowling balls talking about oranges in an apple orchard... Nespa?
I think I've hatched. - Chris
Let's hope not! (Clean up in aisle four!)




.

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 02:58 PM
Shaun, I'm not sure I agree with everything you said, but I REALLY APPRECIATE that post.

Thank you very much,
Ron (hope you are well)

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 03:17 PM
Shaun, I'm not sure I agree with everything you said, but I REALLY APPRECIATE that post.

Thank you very much,
Ron (hope you are well)

Hi Ron,

Having had the chance to get to know you a bit, I have a feeling I could point out the parts where we may disagree. However, I tried to put things in terms of "my opinions' and "my beliefs" versus it "is" this way or that...

For me, this is my current understanding, and a simple representation of part of the framework within which I am pursuing what my teacher has been able to put forth in front of me. I am sure that, too will change given enought time. Rember though, its ony when T=0 or T=∞ that I will really have anything concrete to stand on. Given that one is the moment before conception and the other just after passing, I may come to know something, but alas I won't be able to pay it forward, as they say... Perhaps the honor is in the effort.

We each shall get to see, but never get to say.



.

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 03:25 PM
Well, to be more concrete:

1. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is committed to harming someone.
True

2. Pain compliance does not really work on someone who is on drugs and can not feel what is being done to them, or is on alcohol, and reaction times being slower they get injured while they are trying to de-escalate the situation.
True

3. Pain is not required or needed, nor is it even the goal of aikido. Since the antithesis can be achieved as a way of neutralizing the strength and speed one-ups man-ship contests that often are passed off as aikido, it is actually the desired methodology
I have some small resevations with this statement, but I think it is generally true.

4. (most importantly) that joints actually work in two ways - they can be locked and unlocked. The natural state of the joint is unlocked. This is so we have the flexibility to do things. If we did not have any joints you might imagine how difficult life would be. This also means that the natural order is for an attacker to lock them (i.e. when making a fist, or avoiding nage's lock) where by the next natural action would be to once again unlock them.

I'm in some new territory here...need to try to work with this idea, and think about it. You can probably guess the rest of my thoughts from there. But I am seriously intrigued.

I like posts that take me into new territory! ;)

Best,
Ron

Michael Douglas
03-17-2006, 03:55 PM
Shaun wrote "Aiki is in itself a grounded state where time equals both zero and infinity. I am not talking about metaphysics, cosmologies or metaphors."

Well, this sounds like metaphysical cosmological and
metaphorical nonesense.

Lyle Bogin
03-17-2006, 05:40 PM
I sometimes like to study chin na or hapkido and I have noticed a willingness to accept the fact that locks are usually temporary in practitioners of those arts. Often they are combined with strikes and breaks of course (what Imaizumi Senei may point out as "old style"). If it hasn't been mentioned in a while, Tim Cartmell's work in that area is excellent...including his videos and two important manuals he translated from Chinese.

How long does one have to go before we can say that we've really got the hold? 10 sec? 15 min for the cops to show up? A good hold is great but I think that the ideal of the unescapable, never breakable pin is best studied as an ideal.

ChrisHein
03-17-2006, 07:12 PM
Shaun,
I don't think I said anything about "pain compliance", I also don't believe pain compliance is a viable option in a serious matter. I believe the pins are mechanical yes, but they are not dependent on pain, just functionality. If your arm doesn't work (because it's broken or dislocated) you will not be able to use it, weather it hurts or not.

I believe the principle of Jiu is inherent in the system we practice today as Aikido. While it may have been the founders intention later in his life to dedicate the practice only to the study of Aiki, many of it's original elements still exist, and as it is practiced today, many mistake jiu for Aiki, but yes they are two different a distinct principals.

Long and complicated explanations of Aiki can lose even the most astute student. Aiki is: your chosen relation to another's actions and intentions. It could simply be called Attention and rhythm. This is the basic of what Aiki is, understanding this is the first step in understanding Aiki, beyond that it is best experienced.

When I said "neat stuff" i wasn't talking about cool moves, and sweet techniques. I meant I learned what a fight was, what a martial art is, and what I am doing in regards to both of these.

In my earlier post, I was cutting to the chase, I don't like reading long and self indulgent posts, so I figure others don't either.

-Chris Hein

eyrie
03-17-2006, 07:27 PM
Wow... go to sleep and a flurry of activity occurs....

Great posts Shaun (esp. #73) ! But I think I lost you on the time/space relativity thing... ;) (Time to brush up on Quantum Physics?)

Sorry, Chris... what I should have said is: ...it's really locking (or pinning) their "center" through the anatomical structures that's the real "key"

As Shaun explained... there are many centers. From a simple mechanical perspective, when you move the point of the fulcrum and/or change the length of the lever, the center moves. But we're not doing jujitsu, although understanding how it works in jujitsu can be helpful.

The difference in pinning someone using aiki and plain old jujitsu is the "quality" (for want of a better word?) of the pin. As Shaun mentioned, it's not primarily pain compliance, but being pinned in such a way that uke finds it hard to move/struggle because it feels like they're stuck - not because there is pain centered on the joint(s) which is(are) being pinned/locked. It's the same reason how you can "pin" someone with one finger on the elbow and knee, and they can't go anywhere or get up.

As Shaun mentioned, joints can be opened/closed, or locked/unlocked. You can "lock" a person from their fingers to the toes (yubitori-waza is a good way to feel how this works - without the jujitsu type pain compliance). It gets really interesting when you "open" uke's joints and establish a path to their center, and they don't know what the heck you're doing and why they can't do any thing. And if uke closes a joint off (as in "resist"), the anticipated center of the movement changes. The aim of aikido is to establish harmony (whatever that means?), opening that which is closed, closing that which is opened, to establish a path to uke's "heart" and create movement from the center (any number of the multitude of centers or center of the center). Sometimes you have to unblock what is blocked, or fill what is empty, or empty that which is filled. ;)

It requires a distinctly different spiritual mindset to find the "blockages" in uke's structure. To this end, tori is merely a vehicle for uke to experience "opening" and "closing". Very, very different to jujitsu...

Hmmm.... pins and locks as misogi? But I'm getting ahead of myself.... and I think we lost Darren along the way back there. ;)

ChrisHein
03-17-2006, 07:38 PM
As Shaun mentioned, joints can be opened/closed, or locked/unlocked. You can "lock" a person from their fingers to the toes (yubitori-waza is a good way to feel how this works - without the jujitsu type pain compliance). It gets really interesting when you "open" uke's joints and establish a path to their center, and they don't know what the heck you're doing and why they can't do any thing. And if uke closes a joint off (as in "resist"), the anticipated center of the movement changes.

What you are referring to hear is the principal of jiu, and has nothing to do with the principal of Aiki.

The principal of Jiu has nothing to do with pain. Jiu is the ability to move your body around force, to take no more force then you can comfortably manage and to redirect the force in a new way. Physical out reaching, feeling inside of someone's body via mechanical connection is part of Jiu.

-Chris Hein

eyrie
03-17-2006, 07:55 PM
And in your opinion, what is aiki? And how is that different to jiu [sic]?

ChrisHein
03-17-2006, 08:10 PM
Jiu is the ability to move your body around force, to take no more force then you can comfortably manage and to redirect the force in a new way.
-Chris Hein

Aiki is: your chosen relation to another's actions and intentions. It could simply be called Attention and rhythm. This is the basic of what Aiki is

-Chris Hein

eyrie
03-17-2006, 08:38 PM
Ah, ok... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. ;)

In my (admittedly limited jujitsu) experience, a jujitsu lock closes the joints and works by isolating the range of movement in a joint (hence pain compliance) - and is usually achieved thru mechanical connection, independent of taking uke's center in the way aiki does.

Aiki, OTOH, is finding the path to uke's center, mostly indirectly, and seldom thru mechanical connections through closed joints. ;)

Which is why nikyo and sankyo are very different in the way the jujitsu folk I play with apply it and how the aikido folk I play with apply it. YMMV of course.

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-17-2006, 09:33 PM
Shaun wrote "Aiki is in itself a grounded state where time equals both zero and infinity. I am not talking about metaphysics, cosmologies or metaphors."

Well, this sounds like metaphysical cosmological and
metaphorical nonesense.

Mr. Douglas,

Well sure it does. It is for that very reason that I stated that I wasn't speaking along those lines. If it had been obvious, I wouldn't have needed to restate my point as being to the contrary. However, regardless of one's take on something, if it is not understood then it should sound like nonsense, even when it is not.

There is a wonderful analogy that I would like to share. In the movie awakenings staring Robert De Nero and Robin Williams there is a moment when he has a grand realization that his catatonic patients aren't standing still because they are not moving, but rather that their brains are firing so fast that it is beyond the body's ability to respond... (my take on what the actual diagnosis was) Instead of a regimen of experimental drugs designed to speed up the mind, he gives them something to slow them down and it works, albeit temporarily. I am sure that had Dr. Malcolm Sayer simply explained his thought process to a medical board, they too might have said something along the lines of "...sounds like nonsense, but then again, they would have been wrong.

The example is analogous to a system state that is moving back and forth at the speed of light It seems as though there is no movement at all. When one studies speed of light formulas one realizes that there is something magical that occurs at the speed of light where matter and time become "interesting" In the paradigm about which I speak, I am referring also to interesting observations.

I believe that we may be limited by our overall view of things. Just to pull random numbers out of a hat, if two people are both on the same path and the first believes that path has 10 segments that equal a particular distance, the second person might agree, or disagree. If the second observes it to be 10 times as long, and both travel only half of the path each observes, the second person will travel ten times the distance as the first. My point here is that if we limit our view we may not travel as far as we might like.

It is easy to point at something and ridicule it. It is also easy to attempt it and not being able to succeed go back to what we know. What is difficult is to believe in something so much and for so long and then find out in the very next moment that we were incorrect. What is even much more difficult is to struggle to walk along the new path and let go of the old. We are constantly making these choices. Many seek the comfort of the recognizable, others the embrace sheer fear of the unknown. With which one of these do you identify Mr. Douglass?



.

Yokaze
03-18-2006, 04:02 PM
I thought the same thing not so long ago... for instance, on the Shihonage pin it seems very easy to slip out and get back to a neutral position. I asked my sensei, and gave him permission to show me where I was mistaken.

See, it is true that the uke cooperates, but the nage goes out of his or her way to be extra gentle. My sensei, without applying much pressure at all, nearly wrenched my shoulder out.

I was convinced.

Adam Alexander
03-18-2006, 06:14 PM
Well Jean, how would the average Joe know if what they were doing was correct, even if they trained conscientiously? I would say that Darren is a conscientious student, otherwise he would not have asked the question. And if he thought it was correct, he wouldn't be asking. Granted there might be some "stealing" of technique involved, but this is really basic stuff that his instructor should have covered, prior to experimentation - for training safety reasons.

To each their own, perhaps. But I wish people would get over this "s3cr3t d34dly knowledge" rubbish. Aikido is no more and no less devastating than any other martial art. This stuff is easily explained and based on physical laws and anatomical structures. That we choose not to apply these techniques brutally in training is merely in "the way".

Relax sweetheart, no-one's p*ss*ng in your Wheaties.

In the style that I train, I've rarely to never been told too much about details...even the "stealing the technique" part. What I described is simply what I've read that I've found to be consistent with my experience.

If he's in a style that doesn't talk too much about that stuff, then what I'm saying is appropriate...Forget to take you Midol?

Further, the "s3cr3t d34dly knowledge" is how I've experienced Aikido...and I like that stuff. If you don't, get over it. That's how it is.

Agreed, this stuff is easily explained and based on the same laws. However, I've heard many things that were way too advanced for me and never meant a thing for years. In those cases, I spun my wheels trying to figure out things that were way too advanced when I could of been being productive working on things at my level.

This may be a case where basic stuff is more productive than anatomical info...which is what I get from the original post.

Michael Douglas
03-18-2006, 06:21 PM
Shaun Ravens wrote : "We are constantly making these choices. Many seek the comfort of the recognizable, others the embrace sheer fear of the unknown. With which one of these do you identify Mr. Douglass?"

Well, aside from spelling my name wrong, which isn't
important, I'd like to ask you to rephrase the question.
As it stands it doesn't make sense, so I can't choose.

eyrie
03-18-2006, 06:24 PM
Well, it's ALL basic... ;)

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-18-2006, 09:56 PM
I'd like to ask you to rephrase the question. As it stands it doesn't make sense, so I can't choose.
Mr. Douglas,

Okay one time I am writing nonsense, and the next I am not making sense… Perhaps it is me…

The question was a simple one. Simply, do you believe yourself to be more apt to practice what you know, what feels right in other words your better techniques or do you seek out the unknown, feeling uncomfortable and tend to practice your weakest techniques - even though it makes your uke think, "gee this guy really doesn't know what he is doing..."?
Well, this sounds like metaphysical cosmological and metaphorical nonesense.
The question really stems from these earlier comments made in response to a section of one of my previous posts. You seem to basically say that since you don't understand what you read, you'll simply choose to criticize it so that you can continue to ignore it. This is done rather than embracing the possibility that there may be 10 times the distance or the width or the depth to the path you are on and say that you are committed to. With regards to my question, I am equating the first with choosing the safe, the familiar, practicing the techniques you are good at. I am equating the second with seeking out the unknown, the uncomfortable and standing for long periods of time in the question rather than the answer.

Perhaps you believed that your comments were going to be seen as insightful and poignant, but in stark contrast to making a statement about me, or what was said, I believe you made more of a statement about you and how you think. I asked my question simply to give you the opportunity to make a clear statement. I thought you might want to avoid appearing nonsensical for criticizing what you deem nonsense without seeming to have made any real effort towards critical analysis of the material you chose to write off with a simple, glib comment.


.

Michael Varin
03-19-2006, 02:03 AM
Shaun,

This all sounds great, but one thing has been bothering me.

It's N'EST-CE PAS.

Starting over from the beginning to see what it is that you have missed applies to the French language as well!

Michael

batemanb
03-19-2006, 03:21 AM
Bloody hell my head hurts, that's a hell of a lot to try and take in on a Sunday morning :D There's some interesting thoughts back there but I confess to getting lost way back (T=what and all that). I don't count myself as a studious man so trying to absorb all that isn't going to work for me, probably I'm missing out somewhere. But I thought Aikido was lot more simple than that, by which I don't mean easy, just that if you really do just accept whats coming at you and work with it instead of against it, Aiki (joining/ blending/ harmonizing with ki) takes uke's centre and joins it with my centre, making one, and since I am the centre of my universe........

If I start thinking about that more I'm not sure it stacks up, but my head hurts too much and I'm already thinking about yesterdays football game. Instead I think I'll go down the dojo tomorrow night and have another play at getting things right, work on things that don't go right, and probably not giving any thought to scientific formulae. I'm not trying to p!ss on thoughts and posts above, they are all food for thought and probably very valid, but I can't help thinking that they're maybe overcomplicating things.......

Maybe I need a new sensei, maybe my students need a new sensei? Not sure I do yet, I've still got plenty to learn and he still inspires me greatly, so little time left to play. As for my students, I'll let them decide, I'll close the doors when they stop coming.

rgds
Bryan whose head is now bursting but final lock seems to work if I do it right :)

ChrisHein
03-19-2006, 11:37 AM
I think you just said what we are all thinking.

-Chris

senshincenter
03-19-2006, 06:12 PM
I'm with Chris on this one - my opinion.

It's true, there are multiple centers, but when you see these centers affecting other centers (such that a majority of the opponents body comes under your control - however you want to phrase that) in Aikido waza one has to take into account that the various physical properties (inertia, centrifugal force, gravity, etc.) of motion are playing a huge part in this type of control. Without the physical properties of motion playing this huge role, as when someone has already stopped moving because they are laying prone on the ground, the amount of centers that you can affect from any single center goes down significantly.

This is why one feels more controlled as Nikyo is being applied than when one has taken ukemi and is sitting or laying at the bottom of the Nikyo motion - where motion has stopped. This is all compounded when one has stopped and laying on the ground prone. Why? Because it becomes next to impossible to mechanically control the two major axes of motion (i.e. the spine and the hips) from a single center (e.g. the elbow as in Ikkyo) when the action has stabilized somewhat. The forces necessary to align the centers, such that one lock can lock several other centers, are absent; so then is the necessary restriction on alternate alignments, so then is the capacity to use one to control another. This is why BJJ is so great on the ground - you learn how to move one or both of these axes; you learn how to control them in someone else; and you learn how to use them against someone else.

Aikido "pins," in my opinion, are better seen as setups for breaks, and/or holds from which you can strike (armed or unarmed), and/or exercises meant to develop a sense of grounding/kokyu, etc. One should not expect to pin anyone - in complete control - with standard Aikido Kihon Waza pins (in my opinion).

dmv

Misogi-no-Gyo
03-19-2006, 08:55 PM
I'm with Chris on this one - my opinion.
I am sure most people who consider themselves to be "grounded" would as well.
It's true, there are multiple centers, but when you see these centers affecting other centers (such that a majority of the opponents body comes under your control - however you want to phrase that) in Aikido waza one has to take into account that the various physical properties (inertia, centrifugal force, gravity, etc.) of motion are playing a huge part in this type of control. Without the physical properties of motion playing this huge role, as when someone has already stopped moving because they are laying prone on the ground, the amount of centers that you can affect from any single center goes down significantly.
There must be an old adage that would work well here, it probably goes something along the lines of, "If you say that you may be able to if you try, then you have the hope that someday you may indeed succeed, However, if you say that you can not, you have already proven yourself correct." While both may be true, I do not consider them equal.
This is why one feels more controlled as Nikyo is being applied than when one has taken ukemi and is sitting or laying at the bottom of the Nikyo motion - where motion has stopped.
This should not be the case at all. What is in effect before contact is no more or less in effect at the beginning or the end of the technique.
This is all compounded when one has stopped and laying on the ground prone. Why? Because it becomes next to impossible to mechanically control the two major axes of motion (i.e. the spine and the hips) from a single center (e.g. the elbow as in Ikkyo) when the action has stabilized somewhat. The forces necessary to align the centers, such that one lock can lock several other centers, are absent; so then is the necessary restriction on alternate alignments, so then is the capacity to use one to control another.
This is a great observation. I like your choice of words ("...next to impossible...") leaving room for at least the possibility of something beyond what you have already achieved or can imagine. However it merely indicates that there must be another level that needs to be achieved in order to obtain such control. While I only have elementary ideas as to what needs to be done to accomplish this as Nage, I have been on the receiving end enough times to know that I am still only playing in a sandbox while there are jets flying over my head.
This is why BJJ is so great on the ground - you learn how to move one or both of these axes; you learn how to control them in someone else; and you learn how to use them against someone else.
Well, as it is ju-jitsu, we would all imagine that to be the case.
Aikido "pins," in my opinion, are better seen as setups for breaks, and/or holds from which you can strike (armed or unarmed), and/or exercises meant to develop a sense of grounding/kokyu, etc. One should not expect to pin anyone - in complete control - with standard Aikido Kihon Waza pins (in my opinion).
I think it may be more precise if you said, "I do not expect to pin anyone - in complete control - with standard Aikido Kihon Waza pins ...whatever that may be



.

senshincenter
03-19-2006, 10:12 PM
Well the thing is that a lot of aikidoka all over the world think that they have been on the receiving side of some totally 100% immobilizing pin. That has to be included in any reflection involving what may or may not be on the other side of ignorance. This is because delusion - especially self-delusion - is just as warping as ignorance when it comes to issues of truth and accuracy.

As far as that goes, the key word here is "think" - and what goes unnoticed in all that "thinking," and then of course also in the hoping of being able to one day do what they thought they "felt", is a whole lot of culture that has nothing to do with the pure and simple task of pinning someone down that does not want to be pinned down.

When you see someone being pinned from one corner of their body, I would propose, you are viewing, at best, an unconscious application of a training culture (i.e. a kind of ignorance in and of itself). Let's remember, it is a basic principle of Aikido waza that one should be able to move at all times: If someone has control of one of your corners, move your other corners, and then that person won't have control of that one corner any longer, etc.

What one sees when Aikido pins "fail" against escape attempts is nothing more than this basic principle (i.e. the person is moving their free corners - the other centers they have at their disposal - thus nullifying the control the person had on the first corner). If a person doesn't have movement of these other corners, then its primarily for one of three reasons: 1) One of Aikido's most basic principles is flawed (which I do not think it is); the person is subconsciously allowing their other corners to be controlled via the assumptions contained within a training culture (e.g. "When I pin your arm in ikkyo, try to move your arm."); or the person feeling totally immobilized doesn't understand this basic principle of Aikido waza and simply does not know how to move his/her other centers to free the one center once being controlled.

In my opinion, one has to equally consider all of this, weighing it carefully, fully, against any position that posits "if one really knew what he was doing, he would know how to 100% immobilize a human body in the prone position by having contact with the elbow point of articulation alone (for example)." Why? Because while it is easy to be wrong about what one knows, and though it is difficult to attain high levels of training, the easiest of all things to do is to say, "Well, you can't do it because you don't know, and you don't know because you can't do it." - having that justify anything and everything that does not work as expected.

For me, I have to feel it, then I have to understand it, then I have to do it, before I go on thinking that other folks' position is supported solely by ignorance (i.e. a lack of wisdom and insight). If I hear it from someone else, before it carries any weight (which is that solely of consideration), I have to know that the person in question has legitimate martial skills (i.e. skills at countering and neutralizing attacks - launching them as well). That said, I think there are a lot of aikidoka out there that could quite easily be pinned by solely having one corner of their body controlled (as in Ikkyo). It's just that this is probably more related to an ignorance regarding martial skills than it is to any wisdom regarding pinning. In that sense then, we are at an impasse regarding where ignorance lies and/or where wisdom lies.

All the more reason to keep thinking and training with and upon these things.

CNYMike
03-19-2006, 11:52 PM
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm .....

In Aikido: The Way of Harmony, John Stevens how Shirata Rinjiro Sensei was challenged by people in the 1930s (I think -- the book is at home and I am not), and "more than one arm was broken." Shirata Sensei attributed this to his opponents resisting him. So you can't say they have no effect at all. ;) So there IS a way to make it work, but you probably don't want to break someone's arm if you're just horsing around with them. But why do you want to maintane it for "any length of time"? BJJ players don't get someone in a submission and hold there for hours; they (should) hold just until the person taps out. The same is true in Aikido practice -- you aply pressure until uke taps. In a law enforcement context, you get the person face down on the ground (like most Aikido pins aim for) and get the hands behind his back and cuff him. Again, no major "length of time."

...... I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

When I had just started karate, I sparred with some friends and they kept doing things that confounded me, mainly low kicks and fakes. Does that mean it "doesn't work"? That never occurred to me. Instead, I learned to watch for what they did. In other words, I took it as a leanring experience.

Instead of pronnouncing, "Aikido doesn't work unless uke cooperates," especailly since it seems to be within the context of horsing around with some BJJ guys, learn to watch what they do. How do they get out of your pin? What can you do to sector off those possibilities? This isn't going to happen overnight. But persevering in Aikido while bearing in mind what your friends do is probably more productive then just writing off the whole art. And remember, Aikido is one of the systems law enforcement uses to restrain perps who are most definitely not coopertating. Food for thought.

Pauliina Lievonen
03-20-2006, 05:10 AM
When you see someone being pinned from one corner of their body, I would propose, you are viewing, at best, an unconscious application of a training culture (i.e. a kind of ignorance in and of itself). Let's remember, it is a basic principle of Aikido waza that one should be able to move at all times: If someone has control of one of your corners, move your other corners, and then that person won't have control of that one corner any longer, etc.
If you have gotten hold of one of ukes corners, and they try to move the others, isn't it possible to just move the one corner away from the others again, so that they loose their balance again towards the one corner? Or is this something that is not "allowed" for the purpose of this discussion? :D

kvaak
Pauliina

senshincenter
03-20-2006, 10:10 AM
Yes, in my experience, this is what you must do if you are not going to opt for one of the other three options I gave before. It's just that I wouldn't consider this a matter of being pinned - more a matter of being controlled. Alternately, you can also seek to capture more corners (which is what we do in our arrest and control program) - so, someone could be pinned, but this would take us away from standard Aikido kihon waza pinning architecture. In our arrest and control program we seek to capture both arms and the head - which allows us to control the hips indirectly. Once all of these centers are captured, it is extremely difficult to become unpinned.

Noela Bingham
03-20-2006, 01:04 PM
I know several students who are flexible enough to *unpin * themselves from the shiho nage lock has any one found an answer to this other than atemi

Adam Alexander
03-20-2006, 01:56 PM
I know several students who are flexible enough to *unpin * themselves from the shiho nage lock has any one found an answer to this other than atemi

Proper form.

eyrie
03-20-2006, 05:19 PM
Well, what IS proper form?

Adam Alexander
03-20-2006, 05:25 PM
Well, what IS proper form?


I'd assume that the poster is referring to the position just prior to taking down uke. In that case, I'd assume that the issue has to do with being to high--relative to uke's shoulder-- and not having uke extended far enough.

If it's on the ground, find the point of pain and make sure uke knows you have it when they wriggle.

senshincenter
03-20-2006, 05:31 PM
I understood the poster to be talking about "when on the ground." On that note, I'm with others here - pain compliance is not reliable in the real world. Additionally, no one taps in the real world - which is a big problem in and of itself if you are used to relying on taps and/or other types of willful submission signals. And this brings us to what pain compliance is - it is not a pin - even when it works. It is not a matter of you pinning a person; it is a matter of the person being willing to lay down themselves. That's a whole other topic - in my opinion.

Adam Alexander
03-20-2006, 05:41 PM
I think the kind of pain that can be generated by our methods is so severe and cuts so deep, a person instinctively cooperates because you've never known anything like it combined with the choice to avoid it.

I don't know for sure. But, I don't think too many people experience that sort of pain in the dojo.

senshincenter
03-20-2006, 05:51 PM
Well, the principle of unpinning oneself by moving other centers so as to free up the originally controlled center still applies in some pain compliance maneuvers - especially in shiho shoulder (usual) final pin. This is said on top of a whole lot of other factors that make pain, and reaction to pain, far less universal than one would thing in the real world. For example, if you are tweaking my shoulder, you may cause pain at the shoulder (like one poster said earlier), but the rest of my body can move, and with that allowance, I will move in such a way that the pain at my shoulder ceases to have any say, consciously or unconsciously, in whether or not I will lie down for you.

My advice, if pain is present, good for you. However, it is best considered an added benefit of control; it is not control. Control must be located totally outside of this psychological luxury. Pain is icing - it's not the cake.

Michael Douglas
03-20-2006, 06:20 PM
David's earlier post continuing from : "When you see someone being pinned from one corner of their body, I would propose, you are viewing, at best, an unconscious application of a training culture ... ..." is in my opinion excellent, and touches on some enlightening observations.
I think everyone should study this, whether they agree or not.
Personally, I agree totally.

And the shihonage pin to me seems to be a transient position from which to
injure or strike the victim, therefore not to be worried about if it doesn't hold
for long.
It is a position which follows from the shihonage throw, and for that reason
has to be used, but to transfer to a better face-down pin would seem a priority.

eyrie
03-20-2006, 07:10 PM
I think initially, in the early development stages, some pain is unavoidable and to be expected. As uke and nage develop and become more "connected" within themselves and with each other, it is possible to lock and "float" uke throughout the entire movement in shiho nage, without pain.

Like David, I assumed Noela was referring to uke escaping from the pin when on the ground. Whilst "correct form" is important, there are several key factors involved.

1. the positional relationship between nage and uke on the ground
2. the juxtaposition of uke's wrist, elbow and shoulder
3. pinning the wrist to the ground (in a yonkyo hold)
4. pinning the whole body (all those centers) thru the wrist

At a more advanced level, the use of the radial and ulna nerve points to effect the internal structural connections for kuzushi, lock and pin can be quite entertaining. But I'm getting ahead of myself. ;)

senshincenter
03-20-2006, 08:23 PM
Yes,I'm with Michael in how to understand that final "pin" in shiho-nage (what Ignatius is calling a Yonkyo pin) - better to take the opponent over into a prone position (face down), etc. If you want to keep someone on their back - for striking, etc. - a better pin than the yonkyo pin, in my opinion, is the switching of the hands such that the "yonkyo" hand becomes the striking hand (or whatever) and the other hand presses down on the opponent's elbow (trapping the forearm underneath). While not a totally capturing of all the relative centers, this trap does capture more centers than the standard yonkyo pin.

eyrie
03-20-2006, 08:58 PM
Well, if it's done with the correct "feeling", uke should feel as if their whole body is immobilized. If by some chance you lose that "connection", and uke slips out of pin, there are many jujitsu-type counters to re-pin uke and maintain restraining control. The "kimura" is one possibility.

In any case, one should NEVER switch hands in the middle of a pin without maintaining some form of controlling restraint on uke.

I think some focus on the finer "technicalities" is essential, but too much focus on the actual technicalities, to the detriment of that "aiki feeling", detracts from the practice of aikido.

senshincenter
03-20-2006, 09:15 PM
Well that's the part that has the debate going on now: "uke should feel as if their whole body is immobilized." Some are saying yes to this, some are saying no way. I'm of the "no way" camp.

Sure, it would be nice; sure a lot of aikidoka feel totally immobilized; sure higher skills allow for greater understandings; etc., but, in my opinion, none of this makes it true that you can pin all of the relative centers from one or a few centers when motion has stopped. If a person is feeling totally immobilized from the yonkyo pin in Shiho nage or the elbow pin in Ikkyo (where you late the arm on the mat at an angle out from the body) then, in my opinion, you are not looking at a greatness of skill in the nage but the presence of a great ignorance on the part of the uke.

To keep things clear: The hand switch I was referring to is not a matter of going from one hand to no hands to the other hand. The switch is more of a replacement - using the yonkyo pin to gain some control, placing the elbow/forearm pin to gain more control, and then removing the yonkyo pin and striking (etc.) with it. At no time are you out of control of the opponent's arm.

Here's some tape of that pin and its transition. This video is part of another thread on how to check the cross-lateral side of uke's body in shiho nage hanmi-handachi, so it doesn't really have any close ups of this pin and the transition. But it's not an novel pin or anything like that - it's in a lot of styles and even in a lot of Aikido dojo, etc. - so I imagine one can see it even if it is not being focused upon in the video. In other words, I imagine it is familiar enough to see it from what is shown:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/Shiho%20Nage%20Experiment/shihonage.html

eyrie
03-20-2006, 09:38 PM
He he.... sounds like a session of "laying of the hands" and "some o that lovin' feelin" is in order... ;)

batemanb
03-21-2006, 02:01 AM
In simplistic terms, stretch uke. When pinning, you just need to figure out where to and how to stretch, and maintain the stretch.

rgds
Bryan

Pauliina Lievonen
03-21-2006, 03:13 AM
I wonder if last nights teacher had read his thread because we were working on pins. :) The common experience with the shihonage pin last night seemed to be that, pinning not only the wrist to the ground but also the elbow, made it more difficult, but not totally impossible for uke to roll out of the pin. But rolling out of the pin didn't leave uke in any kind of advantageous position if tori kept the hold on uke's wrist. Basically you ended up in a nice set up for another shihonage or kotegaeshi or throws of that direction.

kvaak
Pauliina

happysod
03-21-2006, 03:44 AM
As usual, I'm sure I'm being thick here, but how long are people expecting to being hold a pin on for and is the pin being assumed to be the final point? I always thought the pin was at best an interim point for greater control prior to either causing more permanent damage or the dojo catch and release.

eyrie
03-21-2006, 03:45 AM
Pinning the wrist and pressing on the elbow with the other hand seems to be common way to immobilize uke. But that only has the effect of isolating the wrist, elbow and shoulder to some extent, leaving uke with the ability to move the rest of their body and wriggle out of the pin. The elbow compression also causes some pain and discomfort for uke if they attempt to struggle.

There is a way to pin the wrist without applying yonkyo, without the elbow compression, and using kokyu "extension" to control the whole body. It is hard to describe this in words, but it can be demonstrated through feel.

BTW, I've seen versions of shihonage which involve a knife hand strike to the throat as uke is going down, and others which involve dislocating the shoulder as uke drops under their own weight, obviating any need for a subsequent pin, so the point about pinning from shihonage is somewhat moot, since by definition, shihonage is a throw - not a pin or immobilization control.

FWIW

creinig
03-21-2006, 07:37 AM
Just a few of my experiences on that matter:

When Sensei pins me after shihonage (The Yoshinkan kihon version), I'm on my toes while lying on my back, frantically trying to get even higher. So I'm, um, at the same time lying on my back, pinned, stretched out and off balance. Oh, and it hurts :D
The key to that definitely seems to be proper movement while bringing uke down -- once on the ground you have to already be in the pin. Retrofitting it later won't work on an uncompliant uke.

When Sensei (or any experienced student) pins me after kotegaeshi, both my shoulders are effectively nailed to the ground and my throat is pressed to the ground, making it impossible for me to breathe.

With nikajo / sankajo pins it's similar, except that there's typically more airflow but also more shoulder pain.

I'm sure I could get out of any of these pins, but definitely only with a broken arm/shoulder.

The ikajo pin (even the one-handed version) can also be made to work really well, but given time (and lack of threats) uke can almost always wiggle out of it (at least for the basic version)...

Ron Tisdale
03-21-2006, 09:00 AM
The shiho pin in my mind needs uke's hips to be off the mat/floor/ground to be effective. Notice in David's clips that uke's hips are almost always clear of the mat. Without that base (of the hips) for power, struggling becomes ineffective. The yonkyo grip is certainly one way to achieve this, but as has been noted, you really want to limit your reliance on pain compliance for control outside of a dojo context. There seems to be a few things that can get uke's hips off the mat, some of which rely on pain compliance, some not as much:

1) yonkyo grip
2) keep uke's elbow absolutely pinned to the mat, this gives better control of the shoulder than thinking of pinning the wrist
3) use your inside knee to pin uke's elbow to the mat, so that your whole body weight is pinning that "corner"

In the end, as long as uke's hips are off the mat, they are in a really bad position. Consider also that outside the dojo context, it is like that uke will have a concussion from being thrown to the pin from their head bouncing. As to shiho being a throw, not a pin, it is taught as both in many many styles of aikido.

Best,
Ron

senshincenter
03-21-2006, 10:58 AM
When Sensei (or any experienced student) pins me after kotegaeshi, both my shoulders are effectively nailed to the ground and my throat is pressed to the ground, making it impossible for me to breathe.


What is this pin like? Can you describe and/or show some pictures or video of it? I'm wondering how both shoulders are being controlled by Nage directly (vs. being controlled passively via Uke's action and/or non-action). I've seen the latter; never seen the former come out of any kihon waza version of this technique. Hence, curious.

On the other question: When I am referring to an Uke being able to move his/her other centers, I am referring to an immediate capacity. Hence, I'm not expecting a pin to hold for forever here, or even a relatively short time (e.g. time enough to get a pair of cuffs on). What I am describing is not someone wiggling and wiggling until they are out of pin - like Houdini did out of straight-jacket. I'm pointing out that Aikido's kihon waza pins - for good reasons - do not control all or even the relevant majority of centers; such that they would seem to spark threads like this for a person looking to pin someone once and for all with these types of architectures (as is).

Let's also point out that moving these centers (under pressure, under pain, etc.) is a skill. Not everyone is going to be able to do that. Additionally, probably most folks in the street won't be able to do that or won't want to do that past the pain and/or torque that one may be feeling on the one or few centers that are being directly controlled. In some kihon waza pins, moving the remaining centers to free up the controlled centers (and/or to relieve both pain and the chance for dislocation/fracture) is a relatively easy matter (i.e. requires less skill). An example of this would be Ikkyo. Some pins will require higher skills at moving one's centers (e.g. Nikyo); others will require an even greater level of skill (e.g. the elbow pin variation of Shiho Nage). If pain is involved, which which is more psychological than the less-experienced of us might imagine, or if the inability to move because pain is involved, which is all psychological, then you are going to have to be even more skilled at moving your remaining centers. That said, I do not think it wise to rely too much on what we individually experienced either as nage or uke. It is better, in my opinion, after a certain level of experience has been obtained, to approach these kinds of topics as pure mechanical matters. I think this is more important if we are someone that still winces in pain at Nikyo's or Yonkyo's controlling points, makes faces during ukemi or during weapons work, and taps out urgently to be released from rokkyo, gokyo, yonkyo, sankyo, nikyo, kote-gaeshi, etc. In other words, if you still have not built up a certain level of pain tolerance, flexibility, a capacity for calmness, etc., you are not going to be the best judge of what works or does not work - since just about anything is going to work on you.

From a biomechanical perspective, it might be advantageous to ask, "How do I control a chain laying on the ground by controlling one or a few links?" Then note how much of the chain you can move, such that you change the relationship between the links that are moved and the link(s) that you are controlling. Then note how many new relationships you can form between these two sets of links (the links you are controlling and the links you are not). This is the basic issue at work in moving centers while pinned. The idea then is to capture as many centers as are relative to making the remaining un-captured centers tactically irrelevant in how many new relationships they can form with the controlled centers. In my experience, when the person is face down, this will mean that you must capture both arms, the head, and the hips. When they are face up, you must capture both arms, the head, the hips, and the feet.

thanks,
dmv

creinig
03-21-2006, 11:38 AM
What is this pin like? Can you describe and/or show some pictures or video of it? I'm wondering how both shoulders are being controlled by Nage directly (vs. being controlled passively via Uke's action and/or non-action). I've seen the latter; never seen the former come out of any kihon waza version of this technique. Hence, curious.

Pictures can be found in the standard Yoshinkan literature (most importantly Total Aikido). I don't think I have any of them lying around, so I'll try a description:

As Uke: Lie face down on the mat, both arms pointing to your feet. Then raise your right arm until it points straight up. Have your (right hand) fingers point toward your left side, palm down.

As Sh'te: Stand in a deep forward stance, right (bent) knee close to Uke's right elbow, left foot at his legs. Grab his right hand with your left in a kotegaeshi grip and softly "grip" his right elbow with your right hand, fingers down. Then drop your weight, transferring it through your right (!) hand to uke, primarily downward, but also a bit inward to keep his elbow locked. Your right hand should actually start at his elbow and slightly slide down to just below it.

You might have to experiment a bit with the angle of uke's arm (relative to the ground, both upward and slightly "inward" until both shoulders are really locked) and the direction of your weight dropping.

If you want, you can also use your front knee to keep his elbow locked. That sometimes feels a bit more comfortable and natural to me (as Sh'te only of course ;) ).

Do *not* put your foot under uke's shoulder -- you want to drive it straight through the mat :D

I hope that was somehow understandable :) . And maybe someone with a better understanding of the lock can provide a better description...

senshincenter
03-21-2006, 12:00 PM
Okay, i've seen, done, and experienced this pin. Thanks for the description - it was very good. Just never had it affect my breathing, etc. I wonder if as uke you tried scooting forward while on the ground? Combining this movement (even half an inch) with whatever you can get out of the left shoulder/arm does a lot to free up the hips and thus the legs, which does a lot to make the pin cease in its pinning, breaking, and pain generating functions. Remember, the shoulder and elbow control of this pin works because Uke's body is being stilled by friction with the ground. Once that friction is compromised, the angles controlling the shoulder control and the elbow control cease to function - then the left shoulder becomes more free, the hips and legs/knees become more free, and controlling the right arm/shoulder from the original position becomes impossible.

creinig
03-21-2006, 12:09 PM
Okay, i've seen, done, and experienced this pin. Thanks for the description - it was very good. Just never had it affect my breathing, etc.

Well, it might depend on your chest musculature etc. It certainly doesn't affect the breathing of women ;)

I wonder if as uke you tried scooting forward while on the ground? Combining this movement (even half an inch) with whatever you can get out of the left shoulder/arm does a lot to free up the hips and thus the legs, which does a lot to make the pin cease in its pinning, breaking, and pain generating functions.

Sounds like a good idea. I'm just usually quite, erm, busy slapping when that pin is applied to me (and I know how easy it is to make it even nastier if uke doesn't yield)..

Ron Tisdale
03-21-2006, 12:23 PM
and I know how easy it is to make it even nastier if uke doesn't yield)..

Well, that's one of the problems with working some of the escapes and counters to escapes in class. I find these things are best worked with a few close partners after class or outside of the dojo all together. Otherwise, misunderstanding can occur, as well as injuries.

We all have to go to work the next day...

Best,
Ron (well, most of us anyway...)