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karim\\\
03-11-2006, 11:11 PM
do beginners need to train on weapons or is it too early???

Mark Uttech
03-11-2006, 11:23 PM
Weapon training from the beginning is a good way to learn that weapons are not "weapons" but tools to help you learn and build on body movement. Nothing more. Nothing less. In gassho
- Mark Uttech

karim\\\
03-11-2006, 11:26 PM
what does it mean to move ur hands from ur center not from ur shoulders or arms??

karim\\\
03-11-2006, 11:36 PM
i seeeeeee there is a guy who told that weapon training teach to move ur hands from ur center not from ur arms that's trippin .....how can i do that man

Tom Liauw
03-12-2006, 12:16 AM
Interesing.

I was at my first seminar few weeks back, I've only practiced for two weeks before. There we practiced with jo and tanto. And it actually helped my (barehanded) technique alot.

I can't really explain how, but it's like I somehow can see the bigger picture.

karim\\\
03-12-2006, 12:39 AM
Interesing.

I was at my first seminar few weeks back, I've only practiced for two weeks before. There we practiced with jo and tanto. And it actually helped my (barehanded) technique alot.

I can't really explain how, but it's like I somehow can see the bigger picture.
ummmm i c can u send me any description or something cuz it's really eating my head man how to move ur hands without ur arms or shoulder's

karim\\\
03-12-2006, 12:42 AM
ooooooooooh i think i get it u move ur hands by moving ur whole body.......am i right??

Amir Krause
03-12-2006, 07:57 AM
Different teachers have different approaches.

Some teachers (my own included) seem to feel the weapons make the learning more difficult and therefore require duration of empty hand practice prior to weapons practice. Other teachers (including a Shihan of our style) claim weapons are very important to learn from the start as the weapons work should teach one about posture, center line, mai and working with ones body.

So far, I found a correlation between the way a person has began his own way in M.A. and the way he teaches. Apparently, both ways are legitimate and depend on having a good teacher who knows how to teach in such a manner.

Amir

Qatana
03-12-2006, 09:51 AM
Yes, Karim, you use your whole body. This has taken me threee years to figure out and I keep forgetting but just be patient and train, eventually things will start to make sense.
And then there will be Something Else to figure out...

SeiserL
03-12-2006, 11:44 AM
In FMA we start with weapons and later the hands.

IMHO, since Aikido comes from ken-jutsu, it halps make sense of why we move the way we do.

karim\\\
03-12-2006, 01:45 PM
Different teachers have different approaches.

Some teachers (my own included) seem to feel the weapons make the learning more difficult and therefore require duration of empty hand practice prior to weapons practice. Other teachers (including a Shihan of our style) claim weapons are very important to learn from the start as the weapons work should teach one about posture, center line, mai and working with ones body.

So far, I found a correlation between the way a person has began his own way in M.A. and the way he teaches. Apparently, both ways are legitimate and depend on having a good teacher who knows how to teach in such a manner.

Amir
thnx amir.....but whats an m.a :blush:

justin
03-13-2006, 02:27 AM
martial art its an abbreviation

Nick Simpson
03-13-2006, 05:43 AM
Weapon training from the beginning is a good way to learn that weapons are not "weapons" but tools to help you learn and build on body movement. Nothing more. Nothing less. In gassho

Agree with this. Though I dont see anything wrong with being taught how to use/handle a weapon correctly. Too many people pick up shinken incorrectly/dangerously etc etc...

MaryKaye
03-13-2006, 01:51 PM
Our current regional head feels only advanced students should do weapons as if they start early they learn bad habits which are hard to correct later. I don't understand this--you have to start somewhere and wherever you start there may be bad habits, why worry particularly about the weapon bad habits?

I have done a little weapons work anyway and find it helpful--my teachers often say "Hold the arm like a bokken" or "This is a bokken strike, from the center, straight down" and those of us without weapons training find these corrections less than clear! I think some faults are amplified when you add a big wooden stick to them, which may make them easier to spot and correct. And a weapon attack when you are unarmed gives a "fear factor" which helps you learn to be calm under increasing pressure. Even a tanto tsuki elicits a much worse flinch than a bare-hand tsuki, and this lets you work on the flinching more easily.

Mary Kaye

Qatana
03-13-2006, 01:55 PM
Even a tanto tsuki elicits a much worse flinch than a bare-hand tsuki, and this lets you work on the flinching more easily.

Unless its Tarik being attacked by me- he just stood there and laughed! Over & over & over....

We do very little weaons work also (swords & mirrored walls don't mix) so it is extremely frustrating when my instructor says "like with a sword" and none of us has had the experience of doing technique with a sword.

Michael Varin
03-13-2006, 06:57 PM
If you do not train with weapons, particularly the bokken, you will be at a major disadvantage as far as understanding the art of aikido. While I'm sure that you can learn aiki without weapons training, the root of most of the techniques and attacks is Japanese sword culture. You will often see that the techniques don't quite fit many empty-hand situations. This is because the situations that the techniques/attacks where born from where armed situations.

Michael

ChrisHein
03-13-2006, 07:43 PM
Weapon training from the beginning is a good way to learn that weapons are not "weapons" but tools to help you learn and build on body movement. Nothing more. Nothing less. In gassho
- Mark Uttech

I would say just the opposite Mark, in fact I would say that the empty hand practice is not really empty hand practice, but in fact weapons technique.

In Aikido you really have no choice but to train weapons from the beginning, as weapons fighting is the only kind addressed in Aikido's traditional technical syllabus.

-Chris Hein

Chris Li
03-14-2006, 01:25 AM
Our current regional head feels only advanced students should do weapons as if they start early they learn bad habits which are hard to correct later. I don't understand this--you have to start somewhere and wherever you start there may be bad habits, why worry particularly about the weapon bad habits?

And of course, they shouldn't have any bad habits at all if the instructors making the excuses are teaching them correctly, right :) ?

Best,

Chris

Erick Mead
03-14-2006, 04:54 PM
And a weapon attack when you are unarmed gives a "fear factor" which helps you learn to be calm under increasing pressure. Even a tanto tsuki elicits a much worse flinch than a bare-hand tsuki, and this lets you work on the flinching more easily.

No, no, -- by all means flinch. Natural reactions are not to be undone or overcome, but directed. Hold on to that instinctive reaction, for dear life -- your brain stem is much faster than your thinking brain.

Just turn it around. If you feel the pit of your stomach fall, then let your flinch happen, in fact, pile on -- into the direction of attack -- it's called irimi.

Cordially,
Erick Mead.

John (King John)
03-15-2006, 06:43 AM
I would say just the opposite Mark, in fact I would say that the empty hand practice is not really empty hand practice, but in fact weapons technique.

In Aikido you really have no choice but to train weapons from the beginning, as weapons fighting is the only kind addressed in Aikido's traditional technical syllabus.

-Chris Hein

I agree with all of this. It most definitely does improve the body movement. Moving the arms but not the shoulders means moving from the centre, ie the pelvis. Tension in the arms is felt in the belly rather than the shoulders. Using your empty hands as if they were connected by the handle of a sword promotes the movement from your centre. Without this feeling the arms move independently and the tension is then felt in the shoulders. Try it, it's almost magical.

Gabriella Wrigholm
03-15-2006, 07:38 AM
Since you're already discussing the subject if beginners should practice weapons or not, I'd like to ask what you teach your beginners once they do start. Is it only bokken and jo suburi, kata or maybe jo dori? In other words what do you think is best to start with?

Nick Simpson
03-15-2006, 07:46 AM
It tends to be bokken and jo suburi mainly at our dojo, but the 13 count kata was taught the other day for everyone in the class (which was mostly comprised of novices) and some jo waza, tachi dori, tanto dori is taught too. It just depends on who's teaching really.

Mark Freeman
03-15-2006, 05:54 PM
Where I practice, the introduction to weapons training is staggered, tanto, bokken then jo, from 2nd kyu onwards.
I was very impatient to get to the weapons when I started, and I didn't understand why I had to wait. When I got there, I really appreciated the preparation I had gone through to get to that point.
IMHO weapons training should be treated with great respect. I'm not sure that a beginner in aikido has anywhere near enough understanding of the basic movements in aikido to do weapons training properly.
I watched a large gathering of different aikido groups last year and saw weapons in the hands of all grades, some of the weapons handling by the early kyu grades (tanto in this case ) was very sloppy. I can't say I was impressed, judgemental I know, but honest.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I think beginners to aikido have enough to deal with just figuring out where their feet and hands are supposed to go, let alone being able to extend their mind to the tip of a bokken and cut with any real effectiveness.

So although it's frustrating in the beginning, I'm glad I had to wait. :)

regards,
Mark

Amir Krause
03-16-2006, 07:17 AM
Since you're already discussing the subject if beginners should practice weapons or not, I'd like to ask what you teach your beginners once they do start. Is it only boken and jo suburi, kata or maybe jo dori? In other words what do you think is best to start with?

We start with Jo, and start teaching suburi (hit to head, then feet then zuki). We then go on to teaching practical Jo exercises (reaction of Jo weilder to attack with another Jo) and only then move on to Jo Kata (Korindo first Jo Kata has 7 parts)& Jo Tai-Sabaki and in parallel - Jo Randori. At some point during this process, the boken practice will be added to, going in the same flow.
Later, at BB level, we also practice Jo Vs Ken (Mostly by attention to the Kata, but we have done some Randori in the pathis way too). But at this stage, the number of weapon sand traditions (Koryu Kata origins) is growing rapidly.

IMHO weapons training should be treated with great respect. I'm not sure that a beginner in aikido has anywhere near enough understanding of the basic movements in aikido to do weapons training properly.

Those who teach weapons from the start, use the weapons practice to teach movement.
One can expect to be slopy and weird when holding a weapon he is not famlir with (unless one is famlier with a similar weapon).


Amir

roosvelt
03-16-2006, 11:27 AM
Weapon as training tool as kata should be taught in day one if possible.

Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.

ChrisHein
03-16-2006, 01:04 PM
All of the techniques are important to the system, as a whole. Of coarse beginners are going to be terrible at weapons, they will also be terrible at tai no henko, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be doing it, the only way you can get better is to train. I know a teacher who didn't teach free practice Jiyu waza until 1st kyu, then he had a bunch of students ready to become shodan's, and they were all horrible at free movement, he was shocked and upset. But the reason this happened is because he didn't think they should be practicing such an advanced practice till later, and he thought they would just be good at free practice over night once they became black belts! needless to say, he had to put in lots of effort with these guys to get their jiyu waza skills up to par, and he now trains Jiyu waza from the beginning, and his students are much better now.

Leaving out part of the training just makes your students lag in their training.

-Chris

p.s. My earlier comment is not saying that weapons makes your empty hand body movement better, I'm saying that there is no empty hand movement in Aikido, it's and armed system.

Gabriella Wrigholm
03-16-2006, 03:09 PM
Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.

Why not? Because it's more important to teach them more simple things at first? Or is there another reason?

Nick Simpson
03-17-2006, 10:15 AM
Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.

What level do you suggest tachi dori, jo dori, jo waza etc etc are done? Nidan? Sandan? Yondan...

karim\\\
03-18-2006, 06:16 AM
I agree with all of this. It most definitely does improve the body movement. Moving the arms but not the shoulders means moving from the centre, ie the pelvis. Tension in the arms is felt in the belly rather than the shoulders. Using your empty hands as if they were connected by the handle of a sword promotes the movement from your centre. Without this feeling the arms move independently and the tension is then felt in the shoulders. Try it, it's almost magical.
so i must originate my movement from my center (pelvis) while executing the technique, and with the same breathing sequence enter inhale then throw exhale right??

John (King John)
03-18-2006, 08:48 AM
Sounds good to me! :D

Qatana
03-18-2006, 11:22 AM
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.

ChrisHein
03-18-2006, 02:21 PM
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.

probably the best advice given to date.

-Chris

tabascoisgood2
03-19-2006, 09:57 PM
I am relatively new to Aikido, but I remember hearing - when training with a bokken, move as is empty handed. When training empty handed move as if you were handling a bokken. Weapons training has helped me understand Aikido greatly. My Sensei (Gleason Sensei) is a great advocate of weapons training early on. He actually has a video that will be available to the general public shortly that is great in explaining and showing the relation between taijutsu and kenjutsu.

roosvelt
03-20-2006, 10:02 AM
Why not? Because it's more important to teach them more simple things at first?




Yes.

And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?

roosvelt
03-20-2006, 10:06 AM
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.

But don't do "reverse" breathing.

If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.

Dirk Hanss
03-20-2006, 11:28 AM
But don't do "reverse" breathing.

If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.
Wonderful Roosevelt,
I always thought that less than 20% of all aikidoka would ever get IT. So maybe we are better off, if we do not train breathing ;)

Regards Dirk

Gabriella Wrigholm
03-20-2006, 11:44 AM
Yes.

And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?

Good point. :) But people probably can't on higher levels either but we still practice it.

ChrisHein
03-20-2006, 11:44 AM
Yes.

And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?


This is a question we should really be trying to find an answer too. I wish the Aikido community at large would stop arguing about: magic powers, historical facts, pseudo intellectualism, pseudo spiritualism, fantasy/roll playing, and other trivial bits, and instead try and figure out if a black belt could really stop a guy with a sword. This of coarse is my wish, and of coarse the goal of stopping a man with a sword is kind of a trivial bit if you think about it.

-Chris

MaryKaye
03-20-2006, 01:10 PM
On Saturday I spent an hour of class trying to improve my forward rolls by rolling and rolling (and working with some kids trying to do the same), and then an hour of class trying to improve them by rolling with a weapon (jo, then bokken) in hand. Wow! I felt a lot less stuck after the second hour. The big piece of wood really spotlights certain deficiencies.

Mary Kaye

thomas_dixon
03-20-2006, 02:13 PM
In FMA we start with weapons and later the hands.

IMHO, since Aikido comes from ken-jutsu, it halps make sense of why we move the way we do.

Yeah the movements are practically the same for stick, knife and hand.

Aikido mainly comes from Daito Ryu jujistu iirc, of course jj was (is) the empty handed compliment to kenjutsu, etc.

ChrisHein
03-20-2006, 07:56 PM
of course jj was (is) the empty handed compliment to kenjutsu, etc.

That's not a true statement. Jiu jutsu is the study of the principal of Jiu, it can be taught (and is taught) with and without weapons.

-Chris Hein

Mark Freeman
03-21-2006, 05:23 AM
And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?

Yes. but the question is a bit vague, and may I add a bit pointless.

Is the guy with a real sword:-

1/ Trained as a swordsman, or just a guy that happens to have picked one up?
2/ is it in a training environment or does the the guy actually intend to commit serious harm?

There are many thousands of aikido blackbelts around the world, some/many would I'm sure completely chicken out if faced with a real sword in a non training off the mat situation. And I am sure there are some, who would quietly go about the business of disarming the sword wielder.

We cannot train for 'real' with live weapons, by that I don't mean we can't train with live weapons, just that the intent to kill is not a training option, so we never actually know what this is like until we come face to face with someone intent on killing. The chances are a non trained swordsman would choose a different weapon, probably a gun, a trained swordsman would probably have enough self control to not want to kill in the first place.

Just a few thoughts FWIW.

Nick Simpson
03-21-2006, 06:05 AM
I'd chicken out...

John (King John)
03-21-2006, 06:47 AM
I'd chicken out...

What if you had no choice? Would you then 'chicken in'? :sorry:

Nick Simpson
03-21-2006, 06:51 AM
I'd pick up the biggest, heaviest household implement I could find and go apesh*t.

Mark Freeman
03-21-2006, 06:56 AM
I'd pick up the biggest, heaviest household implement I could find and go apesh*t.

Then the question becomes:- Could an aikido black belt cope with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t?? ;)

John (King John)
03-21-2006, 06:59 AM
I see, so you expect to be attacked by a sword-weilding maniac in a domestic environment. Interesting.

Steve Mullen
03-21-2006, 07:05 AM
the trick here is to cry like a baby, cry so hard and so loud that they turn away in disgust.....then its time to kick some back ;)

Nick Simpson
03-21-2006, 07:08 AM
Well, not really, but its not too far out of the question is it? My house is arguably a domestic environment (some would say no, but thats another story), it has two swords in it. All we need is the maniac to get a hold of one of them and bobs your uncle...

Then the question becomes:- Could an aikido black belt cope with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t??

"Some aikidoka would prefer to deal with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t this way. Now thats not wrong, but I like to do it this way..."

;)

Michael O'Brien
03-21-2006, 03:47 PM
Back to topic a little bit, that is if we are done with sword wielding maniacs locked in mortal combat with guys going apesh!t with heavy household appliances. LOL

We did some weapons work today in class and afterwords I talked with Sensei about it and he said that we use weapons with beginners because it helps reinforce the footwork and changing hanmi smoothly. He stated weapons work, specifically jo, also helps with the hand techniques but at lower ranks it is more for footwork than anything else.

Just another .02 in the bucket. :)

Mark Freeman
03-22-2006, 03:25 AM
[QUOTE=Michael O'Brien]Back to topic a little bit, that is if we are done with sword wielding maniacs locked in mortal combat with guys going apesh!t with heavy household appliances. LOLQUOTE]

Let a bunch of Brits in on the proceedings and things go downhill from there! ;)

Gabriella Wrigholm
03-22-2006, 06:47 AM
Back to topic a little bit

So several people have answered that beginners should practice suburi, which is logical. But how much suburi do you think beginners should practice before they start with lets say for example jo dori or tachi dori? One or two classes or maybe two months? Though it probably depends a lot on the individual too of course.

Amir Krause
03-22-2006, 07:39 AM
If "Jo-dori" and "tachi dori" mean Randori with Jo or Bokken. And By Randori you mean free-play with both sides attacking and defending freely, then I believe you are skipping a few stages here:
After Suburi, one should learn basic paired exercises (Kata), just like we do with un-armed Aikido.
Randori should start after a while of this, when one can perform a pre-ordained multi-attack paired exercise with reasonable control and accuracy. This normally takes ~1/2 a year or so. Even then, one should start with simpler variation (only one side attacks, the other defends, going up to allowing the other to counter ...)

Amir

Gabriella Wrigholm
03-22-2006, 08:15 AM
If "Jo-dori" and "tachi dori" mean Randori with Jo or Bokken. And By Randori you mean free-play with both sides attacking and defending freely, then I believe you are skipping a few stages here:
After Suburi, one should learn basic paired exercises (Kata), just like we do with un-armed Aikido.
Randori should start after a while of this, when one can perform a pre-ordained multi-attack paired exercise with reasonable control and accuracy. This normally takes ~1/2 a year or so. Even then, one should start with simpler variation (only one side attacks, the other defends, going up to allowing the other to counter ...)

Amir

Oops sorry I didn't mean "jo dori" I meant kumi jo and kumi tachi. =) Or like you said "kata". Of course that's the next step after suburi.

Josh Reyer
03-22-2006, 08:40 AM
Jo-dori and tachi-dori don't mean "randori with jo/tachi". They are techniques against an armed opponent. The "dori" here is "tori", "take, (the same as in morotetori, katatetori), and refers to jo- and sword-taking techniques.

ChrisHein
03-22-2006, 11:44 AM
I think, after a student can fall safely, they should be let into a general class that allows them to practice with everyone else. This means saburi, Kata, Awasi, Kumijo, Kumitachi, Jo dori, Jo nage, Tachi dori, etc etc.

-Chris Hein

Nick Simpson
03-27-2006, 04:03 AM
I think all should be taught from the beggining.

Steve Mullen
03-27-2006, 06:13 AM
the bokken is meant to be thought of a an extension of the arm, you let your ki flow through it too. so why not let everyone use them from the start

spainki
03-27-2006, 04:34 PM
Weapons training ever is necessary for your progress in aikido. One of the bases established by O´Sensei was the serious training with Jo, bokken, tanto... No are really weapons for us, are more, they are tools, instruments to know the body´s movements in attack and defense, at the end if you want the practice regular induce in you a "spiritual state" that gives you graet developement like a person. Good ki for alls. (And excuse my very poor inglish).

thomas_dixon
03-28-2006, 02:05 PM
That's not a true statement. Jiu jutsu is the study of the principal of Jiu, it can be taught (and is taught) with and without weapons.

-Chris Hein

When I refer to jj, I refer to the completely empty-handed portion, mostly based on grappling.

karim\\\
03-29-2006, 04:14 PM
But don't do "reverse" breathing.

If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.
thnx for the heads up man

Ed Shockley
04-01-2006, 07:24 AM
Sorry for weighing in so late but Aiki-weapons is what I most enjoy. Both my sensei, Henry Smith(6th dan) and Nizan Taleb(5th dan) have come through schools that interpret Aikido as inseparable from Aiki-weapons. (Chiba Shihan and Icchimura shihan respectively) Taleb Sensei rarely demonstrates a technique without exploring it's interpretations ken v ken, ken v jo, jo v jo etc. Invariably different students get insights at different points in the process. It is the basic theory of multiple intelligences. More importantly, the organization of ones energy (musubi) is far clearer when holding a sword. The blade screams the absurdity of not focusing in the proper direction and adds enormous clarity when we return to open hand. I also have found that kata have helped identify weaknesses in my movement and balance. At our school we practice Saito's 20 jo suburi, 7 ken suburi, 7 awase ken and jo, innumerable variations of the 6 jo kata (including ken v jo), 13 jo kata, 22, 31 (you get the picture). Each teaches something different. Most importantly, we stress counter kata. Responding to a strike with the added energy of a weapon inspires self correction.

Koren Ko
04-13-2006, 12:43 PM
We start with Jo, and start teaching suburi (hit to head, then feet then zuki). We then go on to teaching practical Jo exercises (reaction of Jo weilder to attack with another Jo) and only then move on to Jo Kata (Korindo first Jo Kata has 7 parts)& Jo Tai-Sabaki and in parallel - Jo Randori. At some point during this process, the boken practice will be added to, going in the same flow.
Later, at BB level, we also practice Jo Vs Ken (Mostly by attention to the Kata, but we have done some Randori in the pathis way too). But at this stage, the number of weapon sand traditions (Koryu Kata origins) is growing rapidly.



Those who teach weapons from the start, use the weapons practice to teach movement.
One can expect to be slopy and weird when holding a weapon he is not famlir with (unless one is famlier with a similar weapon).


Amir


Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

Thanks!

Amelia Smith
04-13-2006, 01:59 PM
Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

:freaky:
Well. You do one or two bokken classes, and you feel like you're doing ok, because you know where the hands and feet go, and can do a shomen and a yokomen, and maybe one or two blocks. That's OK for a couple more classes, then it all falls apart as you try to work on the finer points. Then, if you're even the slightest bit dyslexic, you might suffer months of confusion doing kumitachi.

In my experience, feeling like you can do something "pretty ok" comes and goes in waves over the years. Looking at other people, someone who does frequent and regular (twice a week or so) weapons practice can get to a point of reasonable profficiency in a year or two. But, everyone is different.

--Amelia

Kevin Leavitt
04-13-2006, 02:11 PM
Given the mechanics and dynamics of aikido and how it works....even though we practice a bunch without weapons, it is a striking/cutting weapons based art. So, I believe you need to introduce weapons from the very beginning, otherwise it is difficult to understand aikido.

If we didn't have weapons, or assumed them away, we'd all be doing some form of BJJ, because it works better when there are no weapons....think about that! :)

Michael O'Brien
04-13-2006, 05:06 PM
Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

Thanks!
The other thing that goes along with this is how much time do you spend with your weapons? Only in class when you train or outside class as well?

I had my instructor show me some drills for bokken and jo that I could work on outside of class and so I spend at least 30 minutes every day with either bokken or jo if not both.

Try to get your hand on the video Buki by Ikeda Sensei as well. It has some good drills in it that you can do alone.

Good luck and keep swinging those sticks around. :D

Amir Krause
04-16-2006, 08:05 AM
Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

Thanks!


:freaky:
Well. You do one or two bokken classes, and you feel like you're doing ok, because you know where the hands and feet go, and can do a shomen and a yokomen, and maybe one or two blocks. That's OK for a couple more classes, then it all falls apart as you try to work on the finer points. Then, if you're even the slightest bit dyslexic, you might suffer months of confusion doing kumitachi.

In my experience, feeling like you can do something "pretty ok" comes and goes in waves over the years. Looking at other people, someone who does frequent and regular (twice a week or so) weapons practice can get to a point of reasonable proficiency in a year or two. But, everyone is different.

--Amelia


As Amelia wrote. At first, you feel you learn the weapons very quickly, nothing complicated about it. As you advance, you realize you are barely touching a minimal level of skill. The more you practice and advanced you are, the more you feel your own misconceptions and unsatisfactory level.

I started practicing Jo as a beginner, in my first month (unusual in our club, most times sensei requires a couple of months to half a year, but somehow this is how it worked for me). After a year or so, I felt rather good, after a couple of years I was quite certain of my high skill level. Today, over 10 years afterwards I can point to a growing number of errors I have identified and trying to stop, and surely there are many more I have not found yet. And yes, I have practiced the Jo on my own in addition to classes, and I am much better then I once was.

As for the Bokken, I started rather late, after several years of practice. Further, I was introduced to a large number (over 4) of Koryu Kata too early in my study of the bokken. As a result, several years later, I am still sure I know nothing of correct handling of the bokken ( I know much more then I knew before, but still, hardly scratching the enormous size of things to learn).


Amir

Suwariwazaman
04-18-2006, 02:03 PM
I am going back for my 4th kyu at what point do we start using Jo. I am practicing with bokken. Using Shomenuchi, and Yokominuchi.Is it ok that I start using tenchin, and tenkan too. Or do I just continue. We have done Happo Giri some. Is this right for someone at my level? :straightf

Michael O'Brien
04-18-2006, 05:29 PM
I am going back for my 4th kyu at what point do we start using Jo. I am practicing with bokken. Using Shomenuchi, and Yokominuchi.Is it ok that I start using tenchin, and tenkan too. Or do I just continue. We have done Happo Giri some. Is this right for someone at my level? :straightf

That might best be a question for your Sensei or check your organizations testing requirements.

We require bokken and jo techniques both starting with your 6th kyu test.

ze do telhado
04-19-2006, 06:44 AM
what does it mean to move ur hands from ur center not from ur shoulders or arms??
Hi Karim...I guess what they were trying to tell you is that when cutting the ken moves along a perpendicular line from the top of your head to your hara....as in all techniques... to be centered is fundamental...aikiken is diferent from kendo or kenjutsu...all the cuts are on a vertical line...if they start from your shoulders they become diagonal.
hope to have helped

Suwariwazaman
04-24-2006, 09:07 AM
I will check into that. Also anyone know in tachi dori are you in seiza, or regular hanmi. can any technique in jo waza be done from seiza or hanzi dai or dou?. My appologies if I am saying this wrong Also does anyone know at what point you started jo-waza?4th kyu-3rd kyu?

Karen Wolek
04-24-2006, 12:17 PM
Jamie, it depends on your dojo. In my dojo, you can start taking the weapons class as soon as you start. (not your very first class, but you can take it for your second class, if you want) Our weapons classes consist of: Bokken and Jo Kata, Kumitachi, Kumi Jo, as well as unarmed defense against tanto, bokken and jo, and nage jo waza. May include both weapons and empty hand (tai-jutsu) practice.

Suwariwazaman
04-25-2006, 02:12 PM
Thanks Karen! Just one more idiot question! Does it matter which weapon you start with, or does it again depend on the dojo, and does the USAF have a set criteria which you do first. 1 more if I may. What is the most fun, hardest? Just for a heads up! :D
Thanks again. I am going back for my first class tonight in 3 years. Regular class that is! :D Hope I dont trip over my hands! Thanks again.

Michael O'Brien
04-25-2006, 06:13 PM
Thanks Karen! Just one more idiot question! Does it matter which weapon you start with, or does it again depend on the dojo, and does the USAF have a set criteria which you do first. 1 more if I may. What is the most fun, hardest? Just for a heads up! :D
Thanks again. I am going back for my first class tonight in 3 years. Regular class that is! :D Hope I dont trip over my hands! Thanks again.
Jamie,

Again it will probably be up to your particular dojo. When we are training Sensei will say "Get your bokken", "Get your jo", etc and that is what you are working then.

Different people find certain things easier, harder, etc so that will probably be up to you. I had done some katana work before when I was taking TKD so the basic bokken concepts weren't too hard for me but I know other people who have struggled with them. Of the two weapons though I do find jo work to be more just fun to practice though.

Suwariwazaman
05-02-2006, 12:00 PM
Thanks Michael, I appreciate your reply. I went back for my first class this week. It was great! Take it slow, one class at a time. We worked on some Bokken. Happo Giri, and Suburi Cuts. It was fun, and I feel good! Thanks for all the encouragement, and hope to see some of you in the furture. Thanks again Jamie :)