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peter martin-browning
03-09-2006, 12:43 PM
Hello everyone

Having recently read a flood of interesting replies to my thread about ki, I would now like to see if I can find anyone who witnessed Saito Sensei demonstrating a throw without raising his hands, for which I can find no better explanation than that he was able to extend ki to an exceptional degree.
In an earlier thread, I unsuccessfully asked if anyone had a copy of tv footage from Scottish television, probably from the 1980's, in which Saito Sensei threw someone without raising his hands from his sides. My new question is, - were you there? It was a demonstration for one of the Scottish tv stations, possibly around the time Saito Sensei came to lead a seminar at Largs. I am unsure of the detail, and I am unable to ask the owner of the video copy I saw.
The throw happened as follows. Saito Sensei standing. Assailant attacks from right front quarter, reaching out to grab or strike; I am unsure. Saito Sensei does something with his hips, does not appear to change his footing, and does not take hold of the assailant, or even raise his hands. The assailant's feet rise into the air behind him. He passes Saito Sensei's right shoulder on his way round Saito Sensei's back, and passes through about 340 degrees, landing on the floor at Saito Sensei's left front quarter, moving forwards past Saito Sensei's left shoulder and thus away from Saito Sensei's front. In other words he passes almost all the way round the back of Saito Sensei, in the horizontal plane, except for take-off and landing.
Were you there? Have you ever seen any such phenomenon? Is there a name for this throw?
I dare to say I cannot conceive such a throw being possible through simple mechanics. I am aware that "simple mechanics" is woefully inadequate for you scientists, - I merely hope you will understand the sense that I intend, - Best Mechanical Advantage as opposed to ki. Of course this statement is question-begging.
I should add that I do not think either that there is anything mysterious about ki. It is not my claim that it is a magical, spiritual or otherwise spooky thing. Merely that my experiences and observations have led me to the conclusion that it is possible to exert a force without using the media that our science has so far identified as necessary for force to be exerted.
I believe that I have witnessed its use, and experienced it first-hand.

I hope you find this interesting


At your service



Peter Martin-Browning

bkedelen
03-09-2006, 06:02 PM
Perhaps the uke was having a bad day and was being a bit indulgent. I have done it. Perhaps Saito used subtle movements to trick his uke into finding himself in a place where he could not continue to stand. Aiki seems to be a common tool used to disrupt an attack before it reaches you. Sometimes a throw works just because of the reputation of the teacher. I have been "thrown" by scary people because I did not want to get annihilated, not because person threw me perfectly.

James Kelly
03-09-2006, 07:45 PM
Wasnít there, but have been thrown in a similar manor and in my experience, there was nothing extra-mechanical involved.

ccain85
03-09-2006, 10:38 PM
i dont know anything about the video at question, but i have experienced similar throws(as uke that is), when i just kinda hit the ground and catch myself sayin, what the hell just happened?

peter martin-browning
03-10-2006, 04:31 AM
Wasn't there, but have been thrown in a similar manor and in my experience, there was nothing extra-mechanical involved.

Many thanks for your reply, James. I wonder, - when thrown in this way, were you gripping, say, the lapel of the keikogi, or was there some other point of contact between you and nage? The part that interests me is how it is possible for uke, making an attack in a straight line, to be thrown through a circular, horizontal trajectory, especially if nage does not take hold of uke with his hands. Of course some throws do make a body describe an arc through the air, but in this case the arc was 340 dgrees of a horizontal circle. One can see how a body can move in a vertical circle, as the feet leave the ground, pivoting round the centre. The weight is distributed above and below the centre. In the example I cite, however, the body starts in a vertical position, with weight above and below the centre, then rises into a horizontal position before describing a horizontal circle. All this is achieved by nage without taking hold of uke.
Do you or does anyone else have thoughts on this?


At your service




Peter Martin-Browning

Dirk Hanss
03-10-2006, 08:33 AM
Just my 2 cts:

A good aikido technique is rather psychological than physical. That is why they look so simple and feel so smooth.

Uke needs to have two goals: to perform his attack and to protect himself. So if he tries to grab or push and he never reaches the point he aims for - but he must be always so close, tha he thinks, he would get it in an instance - , he would follow his target. If uke is facing a response (atemi or anything else), he would try to either stop it or evade.

So the trick is sensoring and timing. Uke must always have the illusion that his (re)action is the best possible and all the little changes lead to fall. You do not need hands an even no direct contact. If uke and nage know each other very well, it often looks like fake and at demonstrations you never know. But if uke has to take some hard atemi before, because he did not react correctly and timely, he might do the right move without playing.

Usually those great no-hand techniques are not the first in a series, but the demonstrating shihan just waits, until his uke is attacking fast enough and seems to expect something else. Then there are the right conditions for an extraordinary throw.

Dirk

James Kelly
03-10-2006, 12:34 PM
I was holding on. Can't think of a specific instance where I was thrown in a horizontal arch without touching nage but I don't see how it's not possible using simple mechanics. I expect with enough practice someone could throw themselves as described without a nage at all. It might look funky, but not impossible.

In capoeira I've seen people fly in what look like impossible directions -- sometimes with a partner, sometimes solo -- and there is certainly no discussion of ki or any extra natural forces (well, it is a very spiritual art, but no talk of extra natural phisical forces). Also, look at video of Michael Jordan in the air. At times it looks like he's changing direction mid flight. I don't think ki is involved, but you'd have to ask him.

I've taken a closer look at your description and here's the thing. If uke wasn't holding on and moved as you say and it's your contention that some extra mechanical force has to be involved, it sounds like it would not be an extension of ki but a contraction of ki. Is that even possible (in the ki lore) to contract your ki to keep uke's upper body close to you while letting his legs go wide (as happens often when uke is holding on)?

When I first started aikido I had read a lot about ki and thought that that was what I was going to learn: magical (read extra natural) physical powers. And at my first dojo, there was a lot of talk about such. But even with all the incredible people I've trained with, and all the spectacular things I've see and felt, I have no direct experience of anything that can't be explained by physics and psychology.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it (until, of course, I experience something that can't be explained).

James

Dirk Hanss
03-10-2006, 01:35 PM
Hi James,

I don't think there is something supranatural in ki, but to though someone without touching is beyond simple mechanics. One thing is to make extraordinary moves, which you told us of. But to make someone move like this who does not want to, you need more. Sometimes simple mechanics does help. There is just very little power, but high leverage. But beyond this you have to find a way to make him move unwillingly voluntarily. I hope I got the right expression/picture.

That is simple or more complex psychology.

Dirk

NagaBaba
03-13-2006, 09:43 PM
That is simple or more complex psychology.

Dirk
yes, I think if you condition uke well enough, so soon, he will throw himself right when you look at him. :D

All these no-hands/touch throws are working really good ........only on aikido uke. There are very many ppl that progressively enter in such illusory world, some shihans included. One important part of this picture is a fact, that these days we teach how to receive technique and how to take falls safely. So often, the beauty of fall/ukemi becomes more important then actual efficient technique.

Some ppl seriously think that if they are able to make high flying break falls they become very good aikidoka. :eek: :eek:
Others think, they must do beautiful ukemi to make looks good their teacherís technique. :dead:

That how was born McAikido. :rolleyes:

Dirk Hanss
03-14-2006, 07:01 AM
Szczepan!
You turned my post by 180 degrees :grr: and thus you spoiled it :mad:

I agree, that there is a good chance, that - especially in demonstrations - a supportive uke or even a pre-arranged choreography make it a farce. And from outside - at least for me as an amateur aikidoka - it is hard to detect.

I have not seen or even those wonderful great techniques, but in videos and one of them was definitely a fake - the one when uke had to lay down and went even unconcious, just because the "big sensei" looked at him.

However I have experienced simplier experiments, e.g. I tried to hit nage with yokomen uchi and nage did not move but put an atemi just in front of my nose without touching me - and I promise, at least the third time, I really tried to hit him, but I was not able to touch him. I have seen similar things on a seminar, where the sensei had to use an uke even of another organisation.

Nevertheless there are good reasons to use only experienced uke for high quality techniques.
1) You have to be very good to predetermine the reaction of a person, you have never seen before. So you better take an aikidoka, whom you have at least watched on a seminar and/or tested with some simplier techniques.
2) Even if the technique works, it might not look good, if uke does not know to roll, when he looses balance.
3) If uke does not react well, he might get hurt by an atemi, he did not avoid (only second level quality, as obviously you touched), or by a fall, he was not used to and could not manage.

But again, I agree, we should not care too much about it. When we feel, we are good enough to do those techniques, it is early enough to check details. I am just still a day dreamer.

For the next time, you choose me as uke, I can promise you: I will not be so stupid and resist to hitting a sensei, while he is still talking. I will just do, what I am told. At least I try my best not t make you look good, but to make me the king of the day :grr: :disgust: :crazy: :mad: evileyes

Have much fun - until then :D :p ;)

Dirk

Yann Golanski
03-14-2006, 10:39 AM
I know a no-hand throw... It does not require any hands -- in fact, it's so you can keep a pint of warm ale in your hands. Uke grabs tori's front shirt with right hand. Tori steps so that tori's left shoulder is under uke's right elbow... need I continue or can everyone work it out from there?

No ki, just body movement and mechanics.

bratzo_barrena
03-14-2006, 03:38 PM
Throws without touching are real, and have nothing to do with mystical powers property of aikido, or some mysterious force. It's just timming.

And I maybe most of us have done it at least once. For example, when we were kids, and you grab the ball for a friend who is going to kick it real hard, to score a goal. your friend runs towards the ball... kicks with all his might, but just before he actually hits the ball, you pull it, so he kicks air and lands on his back.
Well you throw him without toching him. Magic... NO...special power...NO, timing form your part, becasu if you take away the ball too soon your friend is going to stop, and if you take it away too late, then he's just going to kick the ball... and your hand probably. :)
So you have timing, and what happens with the kicker? well he was co confident taht he was going to kick the ball, that when it didn't happen, his mind was wondering "whta the hell happend? where's the ball?, whit his foot was still kicking. So descoordination between mind and body, and he falls.
Same in aikido

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral FL

NagaBaba
03-14-2006, 09:44 PM
Have much fun - until then :D :p ;)

Dirk
So all these years you have been resisting to execute correct attack? :D Bad Dirk, bad boy....you don't trust your sensei, do you? You think he is not able to do a technique if you attack him for real? that's what you call respect......hmhmh........ :p

bratzo_barrena, you said timimg? I have a friend, he is 4th dan TKD. his kicks are faster then the speed of sound. And he will never give you even one milimeter of his balance. I'd like to see you throw him without touchig him :rolleyes: :D
remember, without a special conditionning, nobody will fall down just because you put your fist right to his nose. Only aikidoka do such horrors.

Michael O'Brien
03-14-2006, 10:26 PM
I have a friend, he is 4th dan TKD. his kicks are faster then the speed of sound. And he will never give you even one milimeter of his balance. I'd like to see you throw him without touching him.

remember, without a special conditionning, nobody will fall down just because you put your fist right to his nose. Only aikidoka do such horrors.

Speed of sound is 761 miles per hour. Can I get a video with something that shows his kicks going faster than that? Having studied TKD personally to 1st Dan and trained and competed for many years in the 80's and 90's I've never seen a kick that fast.

Also, the horror of this particular aikidoka falling down when my Sensei puts his fist to my nose is the fact that if I don't fall down then I get hit in the nose.

Dirk Hanss
03-15-2006, 04:26 AM
So all these years you have been resisting to execute correct attack? :D Bad Dirk, bad boy....you don't trust your sensei, do you? You think he is not able to do a technique if you attack him for real? that's what you call respect......hmhmh........ :p


Last time was a fine tenkan, this one is a pure irimi attack. :yuck:

I can take them all. There is so much I have not learned in all these years. But not to blame my sensei I have to reply a few words. I rarely do full impact attacks, - I trust that my sensei can do the technique, but I do not trust my ukemi too far beyond, what I am used to. In other words - I really reduce the impact of the attack to the impact, I think, I can take from the responding technique.

Actually my sensei sometimes forgot to explain something and started again, while I was attacking. Then he just stopped my attack by protecting himself with a long arm, open hand targeting to my face. In the beginning my hit just missied him, and I had to take that - quite soft - hand in my face. Now my reaction is faster and usually I can stop the attack. That is how I am conditioned. You were the first one, I have experienced on my own, who did not only talk when showing specifics of the techniques, but already in the mid of the attack and still expects a real attack. Yes that why I did perform badly.

Probably next time I can switch. Good luck ;)


Dirk

bratzo_barrena
03-15-2006, 09:31 AM
bratzo_barrena, you said timimg? I have a friend, he is 4th dan TKD. his kicks are faster then the speed of sound. And he will never give you even one milimeter of his balance. I'd like to see you throw him without touchig him :rolleyes: :D
remember, without a special conditionning, nobody will fall down just because you put your fist right to his nose. Only aikidoka do such horrors.



MR. Szczepan,
I guess you don't understand Aikido. Timing is not about who is faster, is about the relationship between attacker and defender. This relationship implies distance, direction of movement, intention/determination of attacker, speed, etc. BUT NOT ONLY SPEED.
You said your friend kicks very fast. Which means I wouldn't be able to avoid his kick? If that is what you meant, maybe you're right, maybe you're not. He would need to kick me to know. But as I said before, is not only speed is not the only thing to take into consideration. By the way, I never said I was invencible, did I?
You also said that your friend wouldn't give me one milimeter of his balance. I would expect that. It's not his job to 'give me' his balance; it's MY JOB to take his balance.
And about throwing him without touching, If I get it right would be possible (even easier from a kick than from a punch, because one foot is already in the air). But just if I get it right. ;)

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral ,FL

happysod
03-15-2006, 09:48 AM
You also said that your friend wouldn't give me one milimeter of his balance. I would expect that. It's not his job to 'give me' his balance; it's MY JOB to take his balance. Don't get this one - assuming a decent kicker and assuming you're not playing touchy, can't see how this would work other than the kicker allowing his balance to fail (the fabled holy grail of leading your uke into imbalance with no touch). With a decent kicker who refused to be led...

I have no real axe to grind with no-touch throws, I just personally would never rely on them - give me a bit of the anatomy to grab or strike and I'm happy

bratzo_barrena
03-15-2006, 09:49 AM
Mr. Szczepan Janczuk
I forgot to clarify,
I don't belive no-touch throws are the result of energy extention, or ki, or some magical Aikido power. It's just mechanics.
Taking again your example of your friend kicking fast and strong.
If I get to move out of his line of attack, thus avoiding the kick, and at the same time make for example I make an atemi to his face (while his kick is still developing, this is very important) and your friend tries to avoid my atemi by taking his head back very fast, it's possible he would fall without I touching him. Why? because part of his body (foot) is moving forwardm and the other part is moving backwards. So balance is broken.
But is very important that he tries to avoid my counter attack. Now what happens if he doesn't try to avoid my attemi?, then I should land a strong atemi on his face. Maybe that would throw him, but in this case is a touch throw and usually with a broken nose.
As I said no magic powers, no mystical KI, just mechanics. And it's not possible only with Aikido either.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

bratzo_barrena
03-15-2006, 09:58 AM
Don't get this one - assuming a decent kicker and assuming you're not playing touchy, can't see how this would work other than the kicker allowing his balance to fail (the fabled holy grail of leading your uke into imbalance with no touch). With a decent kicker who refused to be led...

I have no real axe to grind with no-touch throws, I just personally would never rely on them - give me a bit of the anatomy to grab or strike and I'm happy

Mr. Ian,
I agree with you, no-touch throws is not what you aim for, I's not that one should TRY to throw anyone without touching, that would be stupid.
when you counter an attack, you should aim to strike your opponent if you make an attemi for example.
What throws him without touching is that he tries to avoid your attemi while still his own attack is developing. That breaks his balance.
If he doesn't try to avoid your atemi, then it just must land hard.
So no-touch throws are not (and should not be) your goal, they're are just a consecuense.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

tedehara
03-15-2006, 01:13 PM
People are able to do no touch throws because they understand how to take up slack. The mechanics may look like small movements, but to the uke, the feeling is big. Unlike a beginner, who uses big movement, but has a small feeling to the technique.

Not everyone gets into the psychology of conflict, but it's safe to assume an opponent will have both a mind and body. And since the mind leads the body, it's easier to led their mind than struggle with their body.

Mark Freeman
03-15-2006, 02:19 PM
give me a bit of the anatomy to grab or strike and I'm happy

Ian, if this was on another forum not far from here I could have some fun with that set up :D

Mark

Mark Freeman
03-15-2006, 02:53 PM
People are able to do no touch throws because they understand how to take up slack. The mechanics may look like small movements, but to the uke, the feeling is big. Unlike a beginner, who uses big movement, but has a small feeling to the technique.

Not everyone gets into the psychology of conflict, but it's safe to assume an opponent will have both a mind and body. And since the mind leads the body, it's easier to led their mind than struggle with their body.

Thanks for that post Ted, this aspect doesn't seem to be explored greatly here. I don't see ki as something mystical, but neither do I believe it is purely a function of good body mechanics and timing. Although these must be present for ki to be utilised.
The mind is for me where the aikido takes place, the body just follows the mind. When the 'mental aikido' takes place if the body is co-ordinated, then if the mental aikido is effortless, the body will create it in the physical world.

No touch throws exist for those on the recieving end of them.
If you've never been on the recieving end of one, you can only doubt their validity not their existance.
I am sure there are people out there who do 'fall over' for their teacher ( no one hear of course ;) ). I am not one of them. As a student, when asked to attack my teacher, I do so with as much commitment as I can, I want to know what the 'truth' of that action is. Why would I want otherwise? Sometimes what follows is difficult to put into words. When you have given your mind fully to an attack and the thrower knows how to throw the attackers mind, then this is where the throw takes place, and of course the body has no choice but to follow. The overall feeling I have from being thrown in this way is one of 'joy' I seem to roll up off the mat with more enery than I started with. This does not happen all of the time of course, but enough for me to know what is real.
For me ki / mind are possibly one and the same thing for the purposes of utilisation.
I'm sure there are some questionable no touch throws going on out there, hopefully few.
I'm sure that there are no touch throws that are the result of good body mechanics, sharp timing and uke's art of self preservation, probably most.
I'm also sure there are no touch throws going on that happen on the pure ki / mind level. Some.

regards,
Mark

NagaBaba
03-15-2006, 06:49 PM
I guess you don't understand Aikido.
Yes, only you alone in the whole world understand aikido, those with different opinions know nothing at all.

But is very important that he tries to avoid my counter attack.
That's why I'm telling you, that only aikidoka will avoid your counter by throwing themselves.
In REAL world (outside of aikido set up and NOT on the street) there are infinite possibilities of reactions, very different from preprogrammed aikido uke response.
For example he may go out of line and make counter or simply redirecting your counter. It is physically possible, because our exemplary TKD friend firmly keeps his balance so he has a lot of choices what to do.

In aikido set up, uke does his attack once, and then must endure tori's technique, even if it is lousy atemi. After his attack done, he becomes not only neutral, but participates in tori's technique not by necessity, but because of his role.

And you take his role by natural reaction, or the only one reaction that is possible in this situation. That is of course pure illusion.

If you don't understand this mechanism, you will not only live in illusion until the end of you life, but you will transmit this illusion to your students. And that is a catastrophe.

NagaBaba
03-15-2006, 06:53 PM
Last time was a fine tenkan, this one is a pure irimi attack. :yuck:
Dirk
irimi??? non, only friendly kidding :D :p

NagaBaba
03-15-2006, 06:55 PM
People are able to do no touch throws because they understand how to take up slack. The mechanics may look like small movements, but to the uke, the feeling is big.
I'm very interested by these small movements that don't touch attacker, but make big feelings. Would you like to provide an exemple?

Michael O'Brien
03-15-2006, 10:49 PM
For example he may go out of line and make counter or simply redirecting your counter. It is physically possible, because our exemplary TKD friend firmly keeps his balance so he has a lot of choices what to do.


According to your previous example this would not actually be possible. Per you, our TKD friend has just thrown an incredibly hard and fast kick. If someone steps offline and closes as soon as that kicks starts to come in then his momentum is carrying him rapidly forward. As he comes forward if suddenly he has a fist coming into the center of his face just as rapidly as his kick is going out he has 2, and only 2, choices at that time. Go down, or take ukemi in Aikido terms, or get his nose splattered like a watermelon falling off the back of a truck.

In TKD, when your friend started learning as a young white belt I bet his technique wasn't quite so sharp and firmly balanced as it is now. I bet someone "took it easy" on him and let his technique "work" so he could acutally learn what was going on as he is was figuring out his footwork, attacks, and blocks. Now that he is that foundation he is a formidable weapon and not to be taken lightly.

Apply that train of thought to Aikido now; Yes, rank beginners fumble with footwork, locks, etc and uke "follows them around and takes a fall" so that nage can learn what is going on. However, once the technique is learned uke takes the fall for a whole new reason. Because nage can break uke in half if ukemi isn't taken.

In TKD if you don't get out of the way of a punch or kick you get hit in the chest. In Aikido if uke doesn't roll out of a throw then the shoulder gets broken or dislocated.

Think about it.

tedehara
03-16-2006, 12:13 AM
I'm very interested by these small movements that don't touch attacker, but make big feelings. Would you like to provide an exemple?

At the old taigi (http://www.toitsu.de/taigi/taigi.htm) take a look at Taigi 12 Katatedori Ryōtemochi. The first technique is no touch because the uke is avoiding an atemi. The second technique is also no touch when the uke is wrapped up into an unstable postion.

The uke attacks strongly, which gives the nage something to work with. The nage is also able to have a feeling of empathy with the uke, so he knows when to move. In both techniques the nage is able to project a big feeling to his movements. This leaves no room for doubt from the uke.

I'd like to add that I agree with Bratzo Barrena, in that you can't "force" a no touch throw. It just happens.

tedehara
03-16-2006, 12:43 AM
...The mind is for me where the aikido takes place, the body just follows the mind. When the 'mental aikido' takes place if the body is co-ordinated, then if the mental aikido is effortless, the body will create it in the physical world....regards,
MarkIt's been said that the body has weight, color and shape while the mind has no weight, color or shape. When you confront an opponent, you can see their body but cannot see their mind. Yet it seems the techniques of Aikido encourages people to understand this psychological aspect of themselves and in others.

Of course practice doesn't hurt either! You have to bring all this high-falutin' theory down into your daily training. ;)

happysod
03-16-2006, 03:47 AM
The first technique is no touch because the uke is avoiding an atemi This is funny as both you and Dr Seuss are actually saying the same thing - the no-touch is due to specific responses (often deliberately trained). If the learned response of that uke was to cover and slip, I doubt that the no-touch would have been evident.

As I said before, you can get a "no-touch" throw to happen, either because of the defensive reaction of your uke or a mistake on ukes part. However, they only happen when you're attempting to use an actual technique which will throw the same uke with contact. I hate to admit it, I'm with Sze here, if you're intent is to use a no-touch throw, you're relying heavily on uke to be receptive and/or a klutz.

Mark - baad man, all I can say is "play away"

Mark Freeman
03-16-2006, 05:21 AM
It's been said that the body has weight, color and shape while the mind has no weight, color or shape. When you confront an opponent, you can see their body but cannot see their mind. Yet it seems the techniques of Aikido encourages people to understand this psychological aspect of themselves and in others.

Of course practice doesn't hurt either! You have to bring all this high-falutin' theory down into your daily training. ;)

Ted,
Of course practice not hurting has two positive meanings here, and
it is not theory that we are speaking about, rather a part of aikido practice that is given more focus in some schools than others.

Thanks for the video links, I enjoyed watching them, some very smooth, elegant aikido. The no touch throws I saw looked 'real' in that at no time did it look like the uke was 'weak'.
I've seen some good film of O Sensei performing some brilliant no touch throws, so it always amazes me that there is any discussion at all about their validity.

Cheers,
Mark

Mark Freeman
03-16-2006, 05:41 AM
As I said before, you can get a "no-touch" throw to happen, either because of the defensive reaction of your uke or a mistake on ukes part. However, they only happen when you're attempting to use an actual technique which will throw the same uke with contact. I hate to admit it, I'm with Sze here, if you're intent is to use a no-touch throw, you're relying heavily on uke to be receptive and/or a klutz.

Mark - baad man, all I can say is "play away"

I'll keep it clean here Ian ;)

Maybe the focus of our intent should be on our own execution of aikido, rather than relying on the uke for anything other than a decent commited attack. As skill increases in timing, co-ordination and ki/mind extention, dealing with any sort of uke becomes easier.
I certainly wouldn't expect to perform a no touch throw on someone who is not a trained uke, but that doesn't mean it might not happen. I hope I wouldn't expect anything particular to happen as from an aikido point of view, that seems quite limiting.

cheers
Mark

bratzo_barrena
03-16-2006, 09:14 AM
Mr. Ted Ehara, I just saw the video you indicated and if I were to guide my opinion on this video, I would agree with mr. Szczepan Janczuk, that no-hold throws are just BS.
In this video ukes are obviuosly too condescendent, and throw thelselves. Maybe in the first throw, yes, they really need to fall that way to avoid the atemi, but in the second throw, they don't really need to fall that way. I don't think that video is a good example. Of course I don't think any video wolud be a good example, no-touch throws is something that needs to be felt, not seen, to be believed.

MR. Szczepan Janczuk , I didn't say that I only understan Aikido, and whoever doesn't agree whith me don't understand it. I just said you don't understant it, based on that if you consider TIMING just a matter of SPEED, then you're wrong, and you don't understand. But a lot of peole do, not just me.

Another thing kicking by nature IMPLIES that the kicker weakens his/her balance. Why? because when he/she kicks, there's only one leg on the ground (assuming it's not a flying kick), and I guess you understand that a person has less balance on one leg than on two, right? So by nature while the kick IS DEVELOPING (this is important) your balance deminishes. If you add to this condition the speed of the kick, that the kick doesn't hit it's intendent target, an incoming atemi to the face (from the Aikidoka), all these other aspects help to deminish even more the balance of the kicker. If we add to all these aspects the POSSIBLE response of the kicker to avoid the atemi while with such a poor balance, then it's possible that a no-touch throw HAPPENS, not because the Aikidoka decided, but because it's a consecuense of all these conditions. Now if the TKD guy doesn't try to avoid the atemi, then he must received a strong, powerful, committed puch to the face. maybe that will throw him.
Now, obviuosly, I'm asuming that the Aikidoka applied the Aikido principles properly, thus performing an effective defense.
Now if the Aikidoka doesn't have the knowledge to perform his defense properly, then of course the TKD has the advantage and is going to kick him as hard as as many times as he wants.
Maybe the problem is that seems you're assuming that yor TKD friend is (maybe it's true by the way) capable of adjusting to any situation and ALWAYS be in the advange, just becuse he is so good and kicks so fast. TKD has its principles of application AIkido has it's own. One is no better that the other, just different.

Ron Tisdale
03-16-2006, 09:37 AM
Hmm, well, I know people who are just as balanced on one leg as on two. But they are less **stable**...two legs provide greater stability...not necessarily better balance.

Stability:
The state or quality of being stable, especially:
Resistance to change, deterioration, or displacement.
Constancy of character or purpose; steadfastness.
Reliability; dependability.

Balance:

A state of bodily equilibrium: thrown off balance by a gust of wind.
The ability to maintain bodily equilibrium: Gymnasts must have good balance.

Best,
Ron

bratzo_barrena
03-16-2006, 10:11 AM
Hmm, well, I know people who are just as balanced on one leg as on two. But they are less **stable**...two legs provide greater stability...not necessarily better balance.

Stability:
The state or quality of being stable, especially:
Resistance to change, deterioration, or displacement.
Constancy of character or purpose; steadfastness.
Reliability; dependability.

Balance:

A state of bodily equilibrium: thrown off balance by a gust of wind.
The ability to maintain bodily equilibrium: Gymnasts must have good balance.

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron, thanks for the English lessons, Well, English is not my native language, so I hope you all try to understand.
So lets say kicking makes a persons less stable. Which means easilly to get unbalance. Better?

Ron Tisdale
03-16-2006, 10:19 AM
Yes, and please, understand that your english is much better than my anything else. ;) I have made the same clarification to people who speak english as their first language.

Also, I watched the clips that Ted provided...quite a few of the ones on that page actually. I've always enjoyed the grace of movement and the management of ma ai in the Ki Society. I cannot move the way they do, and it is an art. But I have to say, those clips do make Szcepan's point. Take for instance the munetsuki and keri (kicks) clips. Those kicks are awfull, even by my standards, and they in no way represent any kind of threat. To do those same waza with someone skilled in kicking would be something very different. Perhaps the shite could in fact do that...but if that is the highest level of kicking he trains against, he is going to have a rude awakening.

Again, much respect for the people in those clips, they are very good at what they do...but what they do is not really what Sczcepan is talking about.

Best,
Ron

bratzo_barrena
03-16-2006, 02:32 PM
Maybe would be more accurate to say 'no-touch falls', rather than 'no-touch throws'; considering that is not something that the Aikidoka does by his/her own will, but just something that happens due to the dinamincs of the situation. So you don't actually throw him or her. He or she just falls.
Seen this way, maybe is easier to comprehend the process. And this 'no-touch fall' is also true in other arts or sports. Like when in a Muay Thai match one of the participants kicks but misses and fall because of the momentum, or when a boxer punches and misses and we see him loose balance and sometime even falls, or a golfer that misses the ball and falls on his/her back.
nothig mystical or magical though, just dinamics and laws of phisics.

James Kelly
03-16-2006, 04:39 PM
I have a friend, he is 4th dan TKD. his kicks are faster then the speed of sound.
The fastest known kick in the animal kingdom is from the mantis shrimp at 23 meters per second (51 miles per hour). not even one tenth the speed of sound. If your friend can beat that, you sohuld allert the scientific journals.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-17-2006, 09:41 AM
Maybe would be more accurate to say 'no-touch falls', rather than 'no-touch throws'; considering that is not something that the Aikidoka does by his/her own will, but just something that happens due to the dinamincs of the situation. So you don't actually throw him or her. He or she just falls.
Seen this way, maybe is easier to comprehend the process.

Sorry, but i still don't get to comprehend the process nor the dynamics of the situation in some of the "throws" in this clip.

http://82.182.21.41/jak/film/budokan/Watanabe%20W8%20320.wmv

Mark Freeman
03-17-2006, 09:56 AM
Mr. Ted Ehara, I just saw the video you indicated and if I were to guide my opinion on this video, I would agree with mr. Szczepan Janczuk, that no-hold throws are just BS.
In this video ukes are obviuosly too condescendent, and throw thelselves. Maybe in the first throw, yes, they really need to fall that way to avoid the atemi, but in the second throw, they don't really need to fall that way. I don't think that video is a good example. Of course I don't think any video wolud be a good example, no-touch throws is something that needs to be felt, not seen, to be believed.

There is a contradiction going on in the statement above, first you say that no touch throws are BS, then finish with, that they need to be felt not seen to be believed.

You seem to be implying that the uke's are falling over, perhaps when they need not to, and that they are too complient. As Ron said there are things that the ki society which do which others don't and they can be admired for what they are, grace of movement and mai ai are a result of their type of training. But to denigrate the uke's because they don't do perhaps what you would do, is to do them a disservice ( although I do agree the kicks seen in the video were pretty weak ).
As I mentioned in a post above, O Sensei is on film doing many no touch throws, were his uke's being honest or were they just falling over?
My take on it is that the aikido that is practiced that comes from O Sensei's early students, does not focus on the same type of practice as that which comes from his students later on in his life. That does not mean that I think one is better than the other, they are just different expressions of one man's quest.
Tohei Sensei taught what he learned from O Sensei and he saw 'and felt' his aikido. I'm sure he had a different experience entirely than that of say Shioda Sensei.
Naturally they teach their own student's O Sensei's aikido, same name, different approaches.

By naming no touch throws as no touch falls, you imply that it is not nage executing this but rather it's uke's doing. To some extent this is correct as uke initiates the attack and without it there would be no throw at all. IMHO nage is the cause of this type of 'throw' not uke. Without the skill of correct mai ai, timing, blending and leading and ki extension 'no touch' is just not going to happen. With all of these things it can. Which I guess is why O Sensei was so good at them ;)

regards,
Mark

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 10:04 AM
Sorry, but i still don't get to comprehend the process nor the dynamics of the situation in some of the "throws" in this clip.

Hmmph, yeah, well....I can't comprehend it either. But then, I haven't taken ukemi for him...don't know if that would make a difference or not.

Best,
Ron

Ecosamurai
03-17-2006, 10:16 AM
With regards to the 'no-touch' throws IMO they are essentially psychological in nature rather than physically manipulating uke's body (this much already has been said here).

With regards to Szczepan's points I see what he's trying to say (don't much like the way he's saying it mind but thats how he usually expresses himself....). I would only mention that I found a great quote once by (I believe) St.Augustine. Paraphrasing: "When the mind commands the body, the body obeys. When the mind commands the mind it meets resistance."

Some of the best Aikido I've ever seen/experienced has been when my mind has been played with by nage and as such my body has to obey and do what its told. Szczepan seems to believe that this is some sort of psychological state that only Aikidoka get themselves into, unfortunately this is not true. I've seen the same state of mind in TKD, Karate, Judo, Ju Jitsu and BJJ people of relatively modest level (i.e. not masters but not beginners either).
It really comes down to the individula and what kind of psycholigcal stimuli they respond to as to how they might be manipulated by someone attempting a 'no-touch' throw. But everyone has their mental 'gears and levers' IMHO, some obvious some not.

I'll leave you with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei's motto which seems appropriate:

"I am mind itself.

If I hold positive thoughts in my mind, good things are likely to happen.

Holding negative thoughts in my mind works against my best interests.

Therefore, even if my body suffers physically, my mind remains optimistic.

Even if I encounter obstacles, my mind is never defeated.

Daily I fill my heart with thoughts of joy, gratitude and hope.

I face each new day with a bright and optimistic spirit,

which I express in word and deed.

I have faith in life, and life responds in kind."


Cheers

Mike Haft

Mark Freeman
03-17-2006, 11:22 AM
Hmmph, yeah, well....I can't comprehend it either. But then, I haven't taken ukemi for him...don't know if that would make a difference or not.

Best,
Ron

A couple of those 'throws' on the video were hard even for me to comprehend, as you can see from my posts I am a 'fan' of no touch. The only true way of knowing is to take ukemi from the man himself, then there is no question. ;)

cheers,
Mark

bratzo_barrena
03-17-2006, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]There is a contradiction going on in the statement above, first you say that no touch throws are BS, then finish with, that they need to be felt not seen to be believed.[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]


Mr. Freeman I said that if one judges the no-touch throws by what he/she sees in that specific video, then we the conclusion would be they are BS. I didn't say they are. So try to read carefully and understand what people writes.

[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]You seem to be implying that the uke's are falling over, perhaps when they need not to, and that they are too complient. [QUOTE=Mark Freeman]

Yes, they look like throwing themselves without the need to. That's the way it 'looks' in the video. But I also said that watching a video is not a reliable source to give an accurate opinion about no-touch throws. You have to feel it.


[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]As Ron said there are things that the ki society which do which others don't and they can be admired for what they are, grace of movement and mai ai are a result of their type of training. But to denigrate the uke's because they don't do perhaps what you would do, is to do them a disservice ( although I do agree the kicks seen in the video were pretty weak ).[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]

I didn't denigrate any one on the video, I jus comment how it looks like from the outside.


[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]As I mentioned in a post above, O Sensei is on film doing many no touch throws, were his uke's being honest or were they just falling over? [QUOTE=Mark Freeman]

Sometimes, some ukes, I suppose they did just fall.

[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]My take on it is that the aikido that is practiced that comes from O Sensei's early students, does not focus on the same type of practice as that which comes from his students later on in his life. That does not mean that I think one is better than the other, they are just different expressions of one man's quest.
Tohei Sensei taught what he learned from O Sensei and he saw 'and felt' his aikido. I'm sure he had a different experience entirely than that of say Shioda Sensei.
Naturally they teach their own student's O Sensei's aikido, same name, different approaches. [QUOTE=Mark Freeman]

I never compared any of O'sensei's students, or judge them. I just commented on the video I saw.

[QUOTE=Mark Freeman] By naming no touch throws as no touch falls, you imply that it is not nage executing this but rather it's uke's doing. To some extent this is correct as uke initiates the attack and without it there would be no throw at all. IMHO nage is the cause of this type of 'throw' not uke. Without the skill of correct mai ai, timing, blending and leading and ki extension 'no touch' is just not going to happen. With all of these things it can. Which I guess is why O Sensei was so good at them ;) [QUOTE=Mark Freeman]

What I meant, wich you could read in other posts, is that maybe is more acurate to call them 'no-touch falls' because tori doesn't actually 'trhows' uke without touching by his own will. What I mean by this is that if some thinks that can trow any other without touching him, at will, is wrong. The throw or fall, call whatever you like, just happens as a consecuences of the relationship between tori and uke. I don't know if I'm clear, though. Maybe I'm not.
So it's not a matter of will, is a consecuence of the dynamics of the situation.

bratzo_barrena
03-17-2006, 11:54 AM
[QUOTE=Demetrio Cereijo]Sorry, but i still don't get to comprehend the process nor the dynamics of the situation in some of the "throws" in this clip.
There's is not even one technique in this video that actually contains the elements for a no-touch throw/fall to happen.
Ukes just follow sensei until they get out of balance. the problem I see is that ukes could regain balance at any time throghout the technique, or just stop when they feel they're getting unbalanced. By the dynamics of that specific video, uke are pretty much in control of their own balance/body, until they just give it away, doesn't seem like sensei is taking their balance and controling them.
But maybe they're just trying to show a form or a principle, not effectiveness. You have to ask them.
But if what they're trying is to prove effectiveness, the throws in this video are just BS.
Specially when sensei throws one of the ukes from like 11/2 (4 feet) away, that's ridiculous even for demonstrating any principle.

Mark Freeman
03-17-2006, 12:01 PM
What I meant, wich you could read in other posts, is that maybe is more acurate to call them 'no-touch falls' because tori doesn't actually 'trhows' uke without touching by his own will. What I mean by this is that if some thinks that can trow any other without touching him, at will, is wrong. The throw or fall, call whatever you like, just happens as a consecuences of the relationship between tori and uke. I don't know if I'm clear, though. Maybe I'm not.
So it's not a matter of will, is a consecuence of the dynamics of the situation.

Bratzzo,
The accuracy does indeed come from the source: if as you postulate it is a function of the uke 'falling over' then you are right they should accurately be referred to as 'no touch falls'
If they are a function of what tori does to uke then they are 'no touch throws'. And if the throw eminates from tori leading uke's mind and throwing his mind rather than his body then they are definitely 'throws', as uke's body does not have a choice but to follow where the mind goes.
You are correct that they are a consequence of the dynamics of the situation, we just differ in 'where' the throw/fall eminates from.

regards,
Mark

bratzo_barrena
03-17-2006, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]Bratzzo,
The accuracy does indeed come from the source: if as you postulate it is a function of the uke 'falling over' then you are right they should accurately be referred to as 'no touch falls'[QUOTE=Mark Freeman]

Mark, I never said it was ukes/attacker "function' to fall, or that he/she 'is supposed' to fall. As a o-touch throws/falls is not condicioned to the wiil of the tori/defender, they are is not condicioned to will of the uke/attacker either. They just happen.
It would be very stupid to attack anyone with the idea of: 'once I attack I'm supposed to fall'. I never said said or suggest that.
So, no-touch throws/falls, don't happen by will of the tori/defender, or the will of uke/attacker. THEY JUST HAPPEN because if the dynamics of the situation. I'm I being clear this time? Remember English is not my native language, so maybe I'm not expresing myself properly.

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 12:25 PM
I understand what you are saying, Bratzo, and on this I agree...they just happen because of the dynamics of the situation. That's why (for me) seeing them in demonstrations is a little strange. Aikido without 3 points of contact is strange enough, relative to most standing grappling systems. No points of contact? It can be very unusual, and I am not surprised at skepticism.

Best,
Ron (somewhat of a skeptic in that regard myself)

Mark Freeman
03-17-2006, 02:38 PM
So, no-touch throws/falls, don't happen by will of the tori/defender, or the will of uke/attacker. THEY JUST HAPPEN because if the dynamics of the situation. I'm I being clear this time? Remember English is not my native language, so maybe I'm not expresing myself properly.

Hi,
your english if fine and understandable, I am envious of your fluency in another language. We are close to a conclusion here, and it may well be that we will agree to disagree. I say again, of course no touch throws/falls happen because of the dynamics of the situation, this is obvious. My belief formed through my own practice is that it is the defender that makes a no touch throw happen, it is not an 'accident'. Most people that I practice with 'cannot' throw me without touch but there are some that can. My teacher does things with an attackers (my) mind that leave me flummoxed I just cant get hold of him. I don't fall over for anyone, part of my desire to find the 'truth' in the movement made as uke.
So in conclusion, IMHO no touch throws/falls start in the mind of the defender. You are free to think otherwise.

regards,
Mark

Mark Freeman
03-17-2006, 02:52 PM
I understand what you are saying, Bratzo, and on this I agree...they just happen because of the dynamics of the situation. That's why (for me) seeing them in demonstrations is a little strange. Aikido without 3 points of contact is strange enough, relative to most standing grappling systems. No points of contact? It can be very unusual, and I am not surprised at skepticism.

Best,
Ron (somewhat of a skeptic in that regard myself)

Skepticism is healthy Ron, you can take that from real skeptic :D

But if you and I had been brought up on a remote island and all we had never seen an aeroplane, and one day we found a stranger that claimed that he had parachuted in from a passing plane. We would likely not believe him, we would be mildly skeptical to say the least. But our skepticism in this case would be misplaced wouldn't it. Until we had experienced an aeroplane, we would find even the concept of flight hard to grasp.
However, in this case of visual demonstration, there is still skeptiscsm. When I first saw O Sensei on film, his no touch throws were the main thing that really blew me away. I thought, I want to be able to do that! My skepticism program was switched off at that point, and I'm glad it was. I was lucky to find a teacher that practiced in this way and I have been going long enough to be able to do this 'sometimes'. :D

Cheers,
Mark

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 03:04 PM
Hmmm, well, how do I say this...

I think Mr. S. is in some ways correct when he says "only aikidoka would react this way". Please understand when I say this that I say it as much about myself **in certain circumstances** as I might say it about others. There is a very fine line here...I don't always know where it is. I don't think I can believe Watanabe Sensei's demo to be "real". There were some things in the ki society video that are the same...but I have been thrown [without overt cooperation] in some pretty amazing ways...but if conditioning was the reason, how would I as uke know?

Best,
Ron

Michael Douglas
03-17-2006, 03:28 PM
I apologise for going back to this ;

Ted Ehara wrote "At the old taigi take a look at Taigi 12 Katatedori Ry temochi. The first technique is no touch because the uke is avoiding an atemi. The second technique is also no touch when the uke is wrapped up into an unstable postion."

I'm sorry for going back so many posts but I just HAD to give
my response to Taigi 12.
Some idiot running almost towards a fella who holds his arm
up and the first idiot flops himself to the ground for fun.
Most of the rest of that video is the same awful rubbish.
I cannot comprehend who anybody here can think that is even
related to good martail arts !
What is it with this hooked-fish-flopping behaviour of Uke ?
Amazing and seriously EMBARRASING if any of these guys
train in the same art as yourself.

Mark Freeman
03-17-2006, 03:59 PM
Hmmm, well, how do I say this...

I think Mr. S. is in some ways correct when he says "only aikidoka would react this way". Please understand when I say this that I say it as much about myself **in certain circumstances** as I might say it about others. There is a very fine line here...I don't always know where it is. I don't think I can believe Watanabe Sensei's demo to be "real". There were some things in the ki society video that are the same...but I have been thrown [without overt cooperation] in some pretty amazing ways...but if conditioning was the reason, how would I as uke know?

Best,
Ron

I have no problem with the statement "only akidoka would react this way" this is a given, we train to make ukemi for our own benefit. Sometimes 'no touch' is the result of ukemi skillfully avoiding a strike. Something a non aikidoka may not be able to do, and they may have the bruises to show for it.
However sometimes it is more than this. Watanabe Sensei's demonstration does stretch credulity, but if we write it off as not 'real' then are we not effectively calling him a charlatan, or is it that "this would not happen in a 'real' situation ( whatever that is ).
The only explanation I can offer to explain the quite spectacular flip that the uke executes a few feet in front of Watanabe, is that the ukes mind was "thrown" and his body had no choice but to follow.
If the Uke did it of his own accord, this would be a sham.
So I hope that my explanation has some truth in it as I would hate to think that it was otherwise.

If your aikido practice relys on making contact, then your practice progresses to the point where technique is applied skillfully with the minimum of effort, if your aikido practice utilises the mind of the attacker, then physical contact is not always necessary. Maybe Watanabe Sensei has developed this to a point much further than most.

We might remind ourselves of the 'beginners mind' remeber when we first stepped onto the mat and everything was possible. Let's not think of ourselves as able to know where the limits of this fantastic art that we practice are. ;)

Cheers,
Mark

Michael O'Brien
03-17-2006, 04:05 PM
More good food for thought Mark.



We might remind ourselves of the 'beginners mind' remeber when we first stepped onto the mat and everything was possible. Let's not think of ourselves as able to know where the limits of this fantastic art that we practice are. ;)

Cheers,
Mark

This quote brings to mind the quote I heard once:

The more I learn the more I realize how little I really know.
(Or something to that effect)

bratzo_barrena
03-17-2006, 04:18 PM
The only explanation I can offer to explain the quite spectacular flip that the uke executes a few feet in front of Watanabe, is that the ukes mind was "thrown" and his body had no choice but to follow.

Mark,
If it were possible to 'throw anyone's mind' from a distance (like in the video of Watanabe sensei) and for that cause the body to follow, thus throwing the person at will, then there would be no reason to train any other technique. That would be the perfect, safest, and only technique necessary ever.
If you can throw people at will without touching, from a safe distance, then nobody would be able to even get close to you, and if they, for any circumstancial reason, could reach you, then you could use this same power and throw him without any technique. JUST THIS POWER.
Sorry mike, but,yes, I would say that what Watanabe sensei is doing seems to be a lot of crap.
But any one wants to believe, it's their choice.

Michael Douglas
03-17-2006, 04:35 PM
Mark Freeman wrote : " ... Watanabe Sensei's demonstration does stretch credulity, but if we write it off as not 'real' then are we not effectively calling him a charlatan, or is it that "this would not happen in a 'real' situation ..."

I would say that I am not calling (in these Taigi clips) the Nage
a charlatan, but that I am definitely calling the performance
nonesense.
If there needs to be at least one charlatan, then I nominate
the ridiculous Uke.

tedehara
03-19-2006, 11:23 AM
Mr. Ted Ehara, I just saw the video you indicated and if I were to guide my opinion on this video, I would agree with mr. Szczepan Janczuk, that no-hold throws are just BS...Certainly. ;)

The better the aikido, the more fake it looks.

Although the people in those videos are not as well know as Aikikai instructors, they were some of the top people in the Ki Society at that time.

Years ago, I was listening to a stunt man/martial artist who worked with Jackie Chan. He was also the model for a video game. When the programmers asked him for some type of "magical weapon" for his character. He said, "I can position myself like I'm holding a ball. Then he can create this ball of Chi which he can fire out at others." Maybe that's what people imagine when they hear about "no-touch throws"

Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw. There is really nothing special about it. :eek: eek!

NagaBaba
03-20-2006, 07:47 AM
Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw. There is really nothing special about it. :eek: eek!
non, Ted. In order to execute physically any throw, some basic principles must be preserved. None of this technique do it. And if base is false, any extension will be false.

tedehara
03-20-2006, 02:30 PM
non, Ted. In order to execute physically any throw, some basic principles must be preserved. None of this technique do it. And if base is false, any extension will be false.Ma-ai, Kokyu, taking up slack, etc. are all observed. However these are principles of the mind. Principles that are not physical would apply directly to a no-touch throw.

You can deny that people from O Sensei on down, from many different schools/styles, have done no-touch throws. If you don't believe it can't be done, then you can't do it.

People used to think that way about the four minute mile. But then someone said, "Why can't I run faster?"
:D

Michael Douglas
03-20-2006, 06:53 PM
Ted Ehara wrote : "People used to think that way about the four minute mile. But then someone said, "Why can't I run faster?""
Nope.
Didn't.
Roger Bannister simply trained well, ran great, and found at the end of his mile
that he had done it in less than four minutes.
He ran it on two legs, on the same shoes as his competitors, on the
same course.
He didn't train his students to fall over when he waved his hands at their faces !

And : "Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw."
Well, while achieving no-touch Aikido throws requires BOTH uke and nage
to have trained in normal touchy-throws, the 'extension' is an extension of
belief. If that is accepted, then no-touch throws are valid in the uke-nage
dojo context, but still totally invalid as martial application.

THEY GIVE AIKIDO A BAD NAME

Adman
03-21-2006, 01:04 AM
Well, while achieving no-touch Aikido throws requires BOTH uke and nage to have trained in normal touchy-throws, the 'extension' is an extension of belief.I was going to suggest it is sometimes an extension of belief. But then thought maybe it *is* always an extension of belief.
If that is accepted, then no-touch throws are valid in the uke-nage
dojo context, but still totally invalid as martial application.???? Sorry, I was doing fine with what you were saying, until that last bit in bold. Are you saying invalid if ... let's say, someone was training to always pull off a particular technique without ever touching? Or are you saying if someone had a legitimate way of making another fall without contact (on a consistant basis) -- that would be invalid?

<subconscious>
Good God! I'm going to get hit! Must avoid! SPLATTT!
</subconscious>
or
<subconscious>
Must grab arm ... Must grab arm! Why can't I grab it? Why can't I grab ... oh, there it is. WHAMMM!
</subconscious>

Or are you referring to suspending dis-belief?
<conscious>
Okay, I'll duck and fall down ... but I'm not convinced.
<conscious>

thanks,
Adam

Michael Douglas
03-21-2006, 05:03 PM
Yeah, sorry Adam, I made myself unclear.
What I mean is that training as if no-touch throws are martially effective is pointless because of the miniscule chance of one working against an assailant who does not practice Aikido.
Training them in the dojo is fine, ... as long as you don't take them seriously.

"... if someone had a legitimate way of making another fall without contact (on a consistant basis) "
That would be amazing, fantastic, and in my opinion worthy of a whole matial art! Unfortunately there is at least one martial art (OK, I saw some wierdos in Japan on 'kick-ass-moves semi-documentary) which tries to do this, and as far as I can see, fails.

Mark Freeman
03-22-2006, 03:21 AM
And : "Actually a no-touch throw is simply an extension of a regular throw."
Well, while achieving no-touch Aikido throws requires BOTH uke and nage
to have trained in normal touchy-throws, the 'extension' is an extension of
belief. If that is accepted, then no-touch throws are valid in the uke-nage
dojo context, but still totally invalid as martial application.

THEY GIVE AIKIDO A BAD NAME

How and why no touch throws work have been discussed many times on these fora and just about all agree that they are often a case of uke skillfully avoiding contact with what could be a damaging strike. Nothing wrong with that. They can also be a result of tori being just a fraction ahead of uke's grab so that uke continues to try to grasp the target and is being lead to the position where a roll is the only way to maintain co-ordination. There is also the third way which some may have come across, but not by any means all, where tori works directly with uke's mind, and performs the throw at this level, uke's body has little choice but to follow the mind. This is an extension on the second example given.

Not all teachers have learned this practice, but some have. Not all aikidoka can perform the, but some can. But to rubbish a part of aikido practice because it doesn't fit in with your model of how it should be done is short sighted.

Good aikido is good aikido whatever style/school you practice. It all boils down to whether you are following the principles of aiki.

No touch throws do not "give aikido a bad name" unless your understanding of how and why they are applied is lacking.
O Sensei did them, and that is good enough for me. If he is guilty of giving aikido a bad name, then maybe it's because he didn't have the benefit of Mr Douglas' wisdom. :rolleyes:

regards,
Mark

David Yap
05-11-2006, 03:56 AM
This is the extreme!!

George Dillman on National Geographic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-x4iJM2aU4&search=dillman)

Now this really beats Takeda Sokaku, O sensei and even Watanabe shihan (Aikikai Hombu).

The pressure points do work on most people but ole George really outdid everyone with his no-touch knockouts this time. I heard of lightning balls that originated from outer space but throwing ki (chi) balls is something else :D

NG also said that his students include Mohammad Ali and the late Bruce Lee. As I recalled, the pictures with Mohammad Ali was taken at a fight promotion when ole George took students to visit the gym where Ali was training for his fight. The pic with Bruce Lee was taken at the Long Beach karate tournament in the 70's.

Wow!!

David Y

James Kelly
05-11-2006, 12:05 PM
the tongue-in-cheek thing was rich.

Suwariwazaman
05-14-2006, 09:31 AM
Hello I thought this relationship between uke and nage was called "Inwashi" Or key blending movements ! Just going back to few posts ago. This movement is the foundation not only for aiki but all MA all over the world. This I know! Unless uke doesnt move or react then nage gets to have a field day. The energy or dynamics have to be in play. I do have a video of Saito Sensei doing such a throw in a demonstration, but Sensei is going a bokken takeaway. He only touches the bokken. I think this throw is possible without grabing a hand technique or gi. I believe it is in the hips. and the energy of uke that makes it happen. If I am off base then my aplogizes. :D I do believe a throw can be done like this under real circumstances if the energy exists. It can only work if nage is prepared and the just the right situation exist. OSensei did do these throws and from what I have heard the uke's were not coming in like they were dancing. They applied the force necessary, and OSensei demonstrated this with effectiveness. I have seen the throw personally also which made me a believer. Like I said it takes the right situation, Ki and timing for this to work in a real situation. I dont believe there is anything diluted in Aikido.

Thanks Jamie :D

Jimmy L
05-14-2006, 03:23 PM
www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&search=morihei

Is this a further example of above?

mathewjgano
05-14-2006, 06:27 PM
www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&search=morihei

Is this a further example of above?
I'm not personally sure, but I've seen Sensei Barrish do the ma'ai/musubi pressure thing at the very beginning of the video. I always assumed it was to give a proper sense of ma'ai and tracking. ...teaching not to get up before there's an opening which would allow it.

Thalib
06-29-2006, 07:00 AM
www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&search=morihei

Is this a further example of above?

I think it's probably more like Watanabe-shihan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3viOy-bQSyU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rHuQiugSks

DonMagee
06-29-2006, 08:04 AM
Reading this thread reminds me of my first MMA class. I was working on passing the open guard from standing. I had my partner on his back and he was up-kicking and attacking my knee's, feet, face, etc. I was having a lot of trouble, I couldn't get in on him before he could stand back up. I got my coach over and I asked what I was doing wrong. This is what he told me:

"Sometimes you have to eat a kick to get inside".

This changed the way I trained and fight. I realized that I had been so focused on reacting to his attacks and avoiding contact that I had forgot this was a fight. Now when I hear these marital chess games of "He has to take ukemi or take a crushing blow" I realize that most people don't realize taking the crushing blow might not hurt that bad and might let you hurt your opponent. I read above of an example of a TKD guy attacking an aikido guy.

The aikido version was like this

1) tkd guy throws kick
2) aikido guy steps inside and throws punch
3) tkd guy either takes a fall or takes a punch that ends the fight.

Why isn't there a forth option.

4) tkd guy had his hands up and chin tucked, absorbs the blow and attacks again.

If I want to hit you, I'll take your hit. Why? Because I get punched in the face hard at least 4 times a week. Its not a big deal to me anymore. So unless you hit really really hard, I'm still going to keep hitting you.

A little more on subject with no touch throws. A lot of these seem to depend on the fact that uke does not track his target. He throws a punch, but he doesn't try to track his target in a lot of cases. This leads to him punching where the guy was and losing some balance. Usually the nage will then make a motion that the uke over reacts to and takes ukemi as a result. As it was posted above I agree with the assertion that no touch throws work best on other aikidoka. Its mostly a mental game. Its like guys who do pressure point knock outs. It seems to work 100% on their students, but not so well on guys from the local press. The reason being the students are in awe of their sensei. This gives him the power he needs to make just about anything work on them. It gets even more obtuse when they know it is for a demo. Most people know that for demo's you want to be a very good uke, to a fault. Even in judo demos you give a little jump into that throw. Its safe to say that with the right hero worshiping uke it would be possible to point your finger at him and say "bzzzt" and have him fall down. Its not a fault of aikido, or kempo, or any other martial art though. Its a fault of people who let themselves believe too much and question too little.

Ron Tisdale
06-29-2006, 08:47 AM
Nice post Don.

Thanks,
Ron

Richard Langridge
06-29-2006, 12:51 PM
Thanks Don, I have to admit I've always been a bit skeptical of the "finishing" atemi.

Kevin Leavitt
06-29-2006, 12:53 PM
Don,

Once again, you experience and strategies parallel my own. I will "eat" strikes too. I make the choice of where the opening is etc.

I see no issue with this or conflict with aikido, I think we train this way all the time. we establish kamae, open a little to allow for the attack, then move off line to counter.

I think the difference is in a real fight, you can't always compensate for the speed, distance etc, so you end up "eating" it to get the advantage.

Talon
06-29-2006, 02:38 PM
No touch throws are best shown in Yellow Bamboo....Man those guys are good.....

YES I'm KIDDING!!!

mathewjgano
06-29-2006, 09:33 PM
"Sometimes you have to eat a kick to get inside".

I agree this is a very common, and effective strategy. I had a friend who did Muay Thai and that was the kind of thing he was very committed to. It's certainly true that people who take this appraoch and condition for it, are not so easy to take down with one or two tough hits. Someone like me who hasn't been hit hard in quite some time wil probably be affected more by any given strike, than someone who gets hit regularly. I'm pretty sure the nervous system adapts to this sort of thing, which is why some people can be described as having a glass jaw.

4) tkd guy had his hands up and chin tucked, absorbs the blow and attacks again.

I think this is why many people discount Aikido. Unless the strike penetrates enough to effectively take away the attackers balance, the attacker will keep attacking. There's also the "hinge" effect where penetrating off-center will just spin the attacker, which can actually help get one hit.

A little more on subject with no touch throws. A lot of these seem to depend on the fact that uke does not track his target.

To me it seems like these are cases where uke tracks very specifically...with tunnel vision. They are so fixated on one particular point of attack that they adjust their entire body (compromising it's balance) for the sake of connecting to that one point.

He throws a punch, but he doesn't try to track his target in a lot of cases. This leads to him punching where the guy was and losing some balance.

I see what you mean regarding punches but simply punching where someone was shouldn't cause someone to lose their balance...even in no-touch throws...I think. When uke doesn't track the moving target, but fixates on where the target was,. to me this reminds me more of problematic "touch" throws. In the no-touch throws, from what little I can tell, it appears as though uke always moves in accordance with the movement of nage. He throws himself because he's tracking the imagine point of contact in his own body, with that of the connecting part in nage.

As it was posted above I agree with the assertion that no touch throws work best on other aikidoka. Its mostly a mental game.

I agree. I think of no-touch throws as an abstract exercise in responsiveness. I've never seen them in person, though I have experienced "no-touch pressure" which taught me a bit about ma'ai and perceiving an opening. It's quite possible, for all I really know, that it was more a conditioned response than anything else, but it seems to have had at least some tangible results in how I take ukemi. It seems to have made me, generally speaking, more responsive and open minded in how to move my body spontaneously. I'm still have pronounced problems with taking someone's balance though, and that's the part which is supposed to allow me to protect myself the most.

Its a fault of people who let themselves believe too much and question too little.
Well said. Question everything.
Take care,
Matt

Mark Freeman
07-01-2006, 05:08 AM
I find the whole idea of 'eating' a strike to get 'inside' interesting. I can see how it might work with empty handed strikes, but what happens when the hand has a blade in it? Are you going to eat a stab to gain advantage? If you train to take a blow first, isn't this going to put you at a distinct advantage when the assailant is armed?

just a few thoughts,

regards,

Mark

DonMagee
07-01-2006, 07:00 PM
Well if you have a blade, I think I'll do what you tell me to do, or run. Or if I have enough space, pull my gun and shoot you. I'm not stupid enough to engage a person with a blade.

However if I am unarmed and I am forced to engage a person with a blade, I am going to attempt to move off the line just like I would any other type of grab or punch, and then control his knife hand. I'm then going to try to take him to the ground where I can leverage my body weight to control his hand. The final thing I would do is hope I dont bleed to death before I get to a hospital. Of course its important to remember that if he has a blade, he's not going to let me know he has it until he uses it. So chances are i'm going to have to do all of that AFTER getting stabbed.

mathewjgano
07-02-2006, 06:07 PM
Of course its important to remember that if he has a blade, he's not going to let me know he has it until he uses it. So chances are i'm going to have to do all of that AFTER getting stabbed.

To me this implies that you're saying if you knew "he" had a blade, you'd be less likely to get stabbed. If this is the case, why assume he hasn't got a blade in the first place?

DonMagee
07-02-2006, 08:56 PM
To me this implies that you're saying if you knew "he" had a blade, you'd be less likely to get stabbed. If this is the case, why assume he hasn't got a blade in the first place?

If thats the case, why leave the house at all.

I'm going to assume the majority of the people out in the world are not out to kill me. In fact, i'm going to assume that most people verbally abusing me are not looking to fight, but rather to feel better about themselves. I"m going to assue that if someone wants to rob me, they are not looking to kill me, but looking for my wallet. I'm going to assume that if someone wants to kill me, I wont even know it until he trys.

If you want to practice knife defense, give everyone in your dojo a marker and tell them sometime in the next year to try to stab you. Thats knife defense.

mathewjgano
07-03-2006, 08:44 AM
If thats the case, why leave the house at all.

Well, because it would be unhealthy. I'm not saying assume everyone has a knife, I'm just saying don't assume any individual doesn't.

I'm going to assume the majority of the people out in the world are not out to kill me. In fact, i'm going to assume that most people verbally abusing me are not looking to fight, but rather to feel better about themselves.

I think these are certainly reasonable, but I won't assume any given person is of the majority in these cases. I'm not saying to assume anything. I'm saying the opposite in fact: assume nothing. One doesn't have to make an assumption to make a choice in action.

I"m going to assue that if someone wants to rob me, they are not looking to kill me, but looking for my wallet. I'm going to assume that if someone wants to kill me, I wont even know it until he trys.

The latter seems reasonable to me, the former doesn't. In my old apartment building, a man was killed over $5.00 as he entered through the security door at night. I'll try to assume nothing about anyone.

If you want to practice knife defense, give everyone in your dojo a marker and tell them sometime in the next year to try to stab you. Thats knife defense.

Sure...it could be like the Pink Panther, where someone jumps out at you at any moment. Then again, I'm speaking about people who aren't your closest friends. For a situation where you see the guy coming, a soft tanto work nice.
I don't think one should assume they'll get cut and act accordingly.

mathewjgano
07-03-2006, 09:53 AM
If thats the case, why leave the house at all.

Something tells me you weren't saying a person should assume an attacker (or potential attacker) is unarmed. If that's the case, my post was kinda pointless. I replied first thing after waking up (well, second thing: I started some tea before rushing over the PC); I was a bit groggy. It seemed to me you were saying if one knows another person (random strangers) is wielding a knife, they're less likely to be cut than someone who doesn't consider the possibility. Personally, if I'm dealing with a possible confrontation, I'll not assume anything, if I can help it. I'll treat the person as if they might be armed, but might not attack, if it's still a situation that is only a "potential" attack. Face to face, if I don't assume they're unarmed, it seems to me, my understanding of whether or not they're holding a knife becomes moot. I could also be wrong.
Bringing this back on topic, I think no-touch exercises could be good for practicing those subtle postural changes which can give one a slight advantage in a tough situation like this. If a stranger walks up to me and gets too close, I'll move off the line a little, almost as if they've just pushed me. I try to get the feeling of resonating with their movements and acting accordingly. Maybe it's all a mind-game, but it's a mind game which has kept me on my toes when I've "played" it. Perhaps the no-touch throw is this concept taken to the extream. My friends have often liked to break into a sudden game of slap boxing, which has usually started without any warning. Sometimes, by basing my movements on theirs, I've been able to keep from getting slapped; sometimes I haven't. Granted, as uke, we're committing to an inferior position...instead of entering and breaking balance and leverage of the slap, maybe I'd have gone flying as if from sayu nage, but it was the timing response which was the active principle there....I think.
Considering some of what I saw in that video of Watanabe, another possible benefit could be like running with weights...if I can attack in a weak way but still reach through it and strengthen those muscles, perhaps it's like a medicine ball for postural muscles. I do notice the better I am at keeping my balance while moving in contorted ways, the better I am able to counter some technique...relative to earlier abilities in my own case, at least. I know that, after having shiho nage done to me a lot at Kannagara Jinja (in which we basically force uke into a "bridge" to protect the head) I felt more and more stable and was more and more able to resist sloppy technique...not that I was very good at it, but I noticed an improvement. Maybe it's similar when Watanabe's uke "grabs" and turns over into a sort of standing bridge? I dunno...just trying to think how it might be beneficial...then again, I've been told by enough people that I think too much so...
Bye bye :D
Take care,
Matt