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kokyu
03-06-2006, 07:34 AM
In the book 'Total Aikido' by Shioda Gozo Sensei, there is a short chapter on ogi [奥儀] (hidden techniques). I have also seen other references to ogi in Chida Tsutomu Sensei's DVD and 'Angry White Pyjamas'. Because I'm not from the Yoshinkan, I was wondering:

1) How people in the Yoshinkan feel about ogi?
2) How many ogi are there?
2) When do they start training ogi (if ever)?
3) Do other Aikido groups have ogi?

Thanks very much :)

xuzen
03-07-2006, 07:31 PM
In the book 'Total Aikido' by Shioda Gozo Sensei, there is a short chapter on ogi [奥儀] (hidden techniques). I have also seen other references to ogi in Chida Tsutomu Sensei's DVD and 'Angry White Pyjamas'. Because I'm not from the Yoshinkan, I was wondering: Thanks very much :)
The most important thing in aikido is called "yielding" -- extracted from Total Aikido, pg 203 ISBN 4-7700-2058-9. Yielding is called "ju" as in ju-jutsu in Japanese, ruo as in wen ruo (soft and yielding) in mandarin.

He continues to say that what he aims for in higher form of practice (ogi) is to look at the other person with an open heart without ego. When you do that you will see what power he is using, where his balance are, what is his feeling and etc they will become clear.

He cautioned that the above cannot be done by using analytical nor intellectual process. They have to come through your senses using your feelings.
1) How people in the Yoshinkan feel about ogi?
In my personal interpretation, ogi is technically similar to your kihon (basic) techniques. The only difference is the manner which it is executed. When you have conquer your own weakness, having very good stance, balance, having kokyu power, good timing even the most mundane technique becomes OGI technique.
2) How many ogi are there?
Unlimited/Infinite
2) When do they start training ogi (if ever)?
On the first day of training or whenever you are ready.
3) Do other Aikido groups have ogi?
I am sure they do it as well.

Ron Tisdale
03-08-2006, 06:33 AM
Excellent reply Xu. I reread that section the other day because of this post. I still didn't know how to answer ;)

Best,
Ron

kokyu
03-08-2006, 07:33 AM
Wenfung,

Thanks for your reply.

Some of the techniques in the ogi chapter look amazing; on page 203, Shioda Sensei makes his uke (who is holding Sensei's belt) fall down; on page 205, he is lifted up on both sides and he manages to come down and causes both ukes to fall backwards. Do you practice these type of techniques in your dojo?

It appears that "ogi" comes from Daitoryu. In an interview, Kondo Katsuyaki Sensei (http://www.daito-ryu.org/kako1.html) states that:

"In the traditional martial arts, a secret technique is usually taught at the very beginning... Daito-ryu also has a component called aiki no jutsu (fifty-three techniques) and they are truly wonderful. The aiki no jutsu techniques come after the 118 hiden mokuroku, and they are followed by the hiden ogi, the hiogi, the kaishaku soden, and finally the kaiden techniques. "

In this case, 'ogi' actually refer to specific techniques. The Encyclopedia of Aikido (http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=260) has an entry for Hiden Ogi - "Transmission scroll of inner mysteries. The third level of techniques in the DAITO-RYU JUJUTSU curriculum covering 36 techniques."

However, I don't think "ogi" is mentioned so directly in the Aikikai or the Ki Society as it is in the Yoshinkan. Interesting...

Also, ogi or 「奥儀」can be translated as the "heart of the matter". So, the discussion by Shioda Sensei actually lays out the important principles of Aikido, which then manifest themselves in the techniques that he demonstrates in this section of his book. If you look at it that way, xuzen is correct - ogi permeates all your moves.

Ron Tisdale
03-08-2006, 07:37 AM
Another good response! The only thing that stood out more than what you've mentioned is his statements about principles. I think it was/is easy for me to start compiling lists of waza in the yoshinkan...but the important thing that unites these waza are the principles.

Best,
Ron

Peter Goldsbury
03-08-2006, 08:55 AM
Aikijujutsu Ogi, is the title used by those students who copied the manual known as Budo Renshu, published in 1933 under the name of Ueshiba Moritaka (Morihai). (See the Translator's Introduction.) There are 166 techniques ranging from basic to advanced.

Josh Reyer
03-08-2006, 09:12 AM
Aikijujutsu Ogi, is the title used by those students who copied the manual known as Budo Renshu, published in 1933 under the name of Ueshiba Moritaka (Morihai). (See the Translator's Introduction.) There are 166 techniques ranging from basic to advanced.

IIRC, Ueshiba Morihei's inscription to Akazawa Zenzaburo's father's copy of Budo was 奥義の事 "Ogi no koto" (roughly, "About the Ogi").

Ogi, in and of itself doesn't mean "hidden" or "secret". Indeed, that's why Daito-ryu's densho refer to hiden ogi, with hiden 秘伝 carrying the meaning of "secret".

Mike Sigman
03-08-2006, 09:18 AM
Some of the techniques in the ogi chapter look amazing; on page 203, Shioda Sensei makes his uke (who is holding Sensei's belt) fall down; on page 205, he is lifted up on both sides and he manages to come down and causes both ukes to fall backwards. Do you practice these type of techniques in your dojo?

It appears that "ogi" comes from Daitoryu. In an interview, Kondo Katsuyaki Sensei (http://www.daito-ryu.org/kako1.html) states that:

"In the traditional martial arts, a secret technique is usually taught at the very beginning... Daito-ryu also has a component called aiki no jutsu (fifty-three techniques) and they are truly wonderful. The aiki no jutsu techniques come after the 118 hiden mokuroku, and they are followed by the hiden ogi, the hiogi, the kaishaku soden, and finally the kaiden techniques. "I have heard and seen many things over many years about Shioda Kancho, both positive and negative, and to be honest I tend to have an admiration for the man that affects my remarks.

Those demonstrations in "Total Aikido" do indeed, IMO, reflect the essence of Aikido's core principle of "aiki", but it has to be borne in mind that Shioda's demonstrations are demonstrations with somewhat cooperative students in sometimes exaggerated techniques.

Another comment is that many people get enamored of the phrases dealing with "don't use muscle", "relax" and so forth and they mentally interpret that to mean that no strength is used. That's incorrect. Shioda's linkage throughout his body has been tempered and conditioned extensively and his literal power/strength in the dantien area of his body is pronounced or he could not suddenly release an effective pulse of power into an area that immediately takes ukes balance.

Just injecting caveats, for whatever they're worth. It may seem obvious to some people, but to others the thread may appear to be promoting "mysterious" powers.

All the Best.

Mike

Ron Tisdale
03-08-2006, 09:34 AM
Hi Mike,

Not to anyone who has read the books! ;) Shioda Sensei's approach is quite clear I think.

Best,
Ron

Kevin Temple
03-08-2006, 12:58 PM
My interpretation of "ogi" or hidden techniques would be using the principles and motions learned through the syllabus techniques in a non-syllabus technique. Since yoshinkan has very rigid definitions of syllabus techniques, there are many small and large variations using similar principles that could be said to be "hidden" within the syllabus techniques.

Peter Goldsbury
03-08-2006, 07:11 PM
IIRC, Ueshiba Morihei's inscription to Akazawa Zenzaburo's father's copy of Budo was `́E- "Ogi no koto" (roughly, "About the Ogi").

Ogi, in and of itself doesn't mean "hidden" or "secret". Indeed, that's why Daito-ryu's densho refer to hiden ogi, with hiden "E` carrying the meaning of "secret".

Yes, there is a lengthy explanation on pp.21-23 of Stanley Pranin's edition of Budo, together with a copy of the inside back cover of Mitsunosuke Akazawa's copy.

On Page 40 of the Budo manual are douka entitled Budo Ogi (Ka). The first one is about SEI (makoto) being the key to realising the oneness of KEN and YU H.

Best regards,

xuzen
03-08-2006, 10:20 PM
Kokyu said:Some of the techniques in the ogi chapter look amazing; on page 203, Shioda Sensei makes his uke (who is holding Sensei's belt) fall down; on page 205, he is lifted up on both sides and he manages to come down and causes both ukes to fall backwards. Do you practice these type of techniques in your dojo?
No. Mr. Phang, we don't do these so called ogi technique in our dojo. However I have heard my sensei said something to this effect:-

"Feel carefully, even when both hands are grabbed, the force applied cannot be consistent. There is bound to be one hand that is stronger than the other. Feel for the difference in power, then capitalizes on the differences and work your way free" This is what he told me when I am doing techniques from the ushiro ryote katate mochi (two wrist grab from rear) syllabus.

Mr Phang, as for the technique you mention above, I think the same principle applies. When two ukes lifted him up, there is bound to be difference in the amount of power applied because it is impossible to apply the identical amount of force. I am sure Kancho Shioda applied the same principle when he breaks free from the ukes. In the book it may not be clear, but I have a VCD of him doing this technique, and I could see that he did his hip thingy and for a split second exerted a strong force using his waist or hips. I think in Mandarin term, this probably called "fa jing" I am sure Mike Sigman will have better explanation wrt this matter.

Mike Sigman said:Another comment is that many people get enamored of the phrases dealing with "don't use muscle", "relax" and so forth and they mentally interpret that to mean that no strength is used. That's incorrect. Shioda's linkage throughout his body has been tempered and conditioned extensively and his literal power/strength in the dantien area of his body is pronounced or he could not suddenly release an effective pulse of power into an area that immediately takes ukes balance.
Kancho Shioda in is hey days, was a strong man, despite his diminutive size. My sensei was studying directly under him during the late 60's. My sensei said, despite his small stature, Kancho had huge wrist disproportionately big for his size. Kancho was a Kendo player in his earlier days, and my sensei suspect he got those strong arms from Kendo training. His atemi counts. When it comes to striking, Kancho's punches hurts. My sensei knows as he has seen many of his uchi-deshi goes to the infirmary after a intense jiyu-waza session with Da'man.

I totally agree with Mike Sigman about the term "aikido don't use muscle/strength" being BS. Actually people like Kancho or O'sensei do not appear to use much strength, because the strength is already in them from their physical conditioning during their early days of training. You cannot expect a weakling or a wuss to pull off aikido technique successfully without first doing some physical conditioning.

kohaku
03-09-2006, 02:47 AM
HI,
IMO the statement of don't use muscle and relax is not one to be taken literally, what is actually meant by it is don't rely on your upper body strength (arms and shoulders mostly) which what happens to a lot of people when they first start, but to use ur hips and the rest of ur body to unbalance and throw your uke. which is why in yoshinkan you will find that the hips are always square and facing the direction of the projection (this is where power comes from) and not being lazy and having your body side on (this is yoshinkan way, not saying lazy to any styles that have hips side on).
so it is not relax you whole body but more use it as one large muscle with no emphasis on the arms or shoulders. this way if u get ur body to move and finish as one you will find that there is more power than you ever imagined. unfortunately it takes decades of training to achieve if not a lifetime.

kokyu
03-09-2006, 08:05 AM
IIRC, Ueshiba Morihei's inscription to Akazawa Zenzaburo's father's copy of Budo was 奥義の事 "Ogi no koto" (roughly, "About the Ogi").

Ogi, in and of itself doesn't mean "hidden" or "secret". Indeed, that's why Daito-ryu's densho refer to hiden ogi, with hiden 秘伝 carrying the meaning of "secret".

According to my Japanese dictionary, ogi has the following meanings:
1) heart (核心)
2) secret (as in what's your secret to staying slim) (秘訣)

And one can interpret it using both definitions. For example, 「奥儀秘伝」(ogi hiden) could refer to
1) secret transmission of the heart of the Daitoryu
2) secret transmission of the secrets of the Daitoryu

However, in the book Total Aikido, Section 5 is written 'Ogi - Hidden Techniques'. This seems to imply definition (2) - i.e. a secret.

Not to anyone who has read the books! Shioda Sensei's approach is quite clear I think.

So, I guess you do practice the ogi techniques in the dojo ;)

Again, am I right in saying that other Aikido groups do not emphasize 'ogi' like the Yoshinkan?

Ron Tisdale
03-09-2006, 08:40 AM
Well, like I said, the book seemed to me to imply that the 'secret' was in looking at the principles, not the waza. I think every good aikido school of whatever lineage does that. It's probably a mistake to think that 'ogi' in the case of aikido are techniques. Other schools might not call them 'ogi'...that's all. Just my opinion of the moment.

Best,
Ron

Josh Reyer
03-09-2006, 09:32 AM
According to my Japanese dictionary, ogi has the following meanings:
1) heart (核心)
2) secret (as in what's your secret to staying slim) (秘訣)


Mine (Koujien) says:

学芸・武術などの奥深い肝要な事柄。極意。おくぎ。「-をきわめる」

Daijirin comes up with:

学問・技芸の最も奥深いところ。おくぎ。
「―をきわめる」

Gokui, 極意, incidently, is defined in Koujien:

物事の核心。特に、学問や芸事の奥義。おくのて。 「武芸の-を会得する」

With Daijirin saying:

学問や技芸で、核心となる事柄。奥義。
「剣の―を授かる」「―を極める」


However, in the book Total Aikido, Section 5 is written 'Ogi - Hidden Techniques'. This seems to imply definition (2) - i.e. a secret.

That seems to imply to me a somewhat imprecise translation. Particularly in that it seems quite paradoxical that "Hidden Techniques" should be openly published in a commercially available book.

Josh Reyer
03-09-2006, 09:36 AM
Well, like I said, the book seemed to me to imply that the 'secret' was in looking at the principles, not the waza. I think every good aikido school of whatever lineage does that. It's probably a mistake to think that 'ogi' in the case of aikido are techniques. Other schools might not call them 'ogi'...that's all. Just my opinion of the moment.


Good point. It seems that "ogi" and "gokui" may have had very specific meanings for certain arts, like Daito-ryu: specific techniques or abilities held back to all but the most dedicated practioners. But from the way Ueshiba Morihei used the terms in both his books and in the quotes in Sunadomari's book, it doesn't seem like that is what they meant in Aikido.

Ron Tisdale
03-09-2006, 10:00 AM
I agree. Aikido seems to be much more general on these kinds of things.

Particularly in that it seems quite paradoxical that "Hidden Techniques" should be openly published in a commercially available book.

It should be noted that this is a one page section with no waza. It is followed by a section on the Techniques of Gozo Shioda, but they are seperate in my reading of the book. I think some feel that the waza on subsequent pages represent the ogi...in a way (principles) that's probably true. But maybe not so much as people think.

Best,
Ron

kokyu
03-10-2006, 08:26 PM
Mine (Koujien) says:

学芸・武術などの奥深い肝要な事柄。極意。おくぎ。「-をきわめる」

That seems to imply to me a somewhat imprecise translation. Particularly in that it seems quite paradoxical that "Hidden Techniques" should be openly published in a commercially available book.

I went to my denshi jisho and came up with the same definition. To translate Joshua's definition of ougi, "The Arts/Martial Arts deepest and most important matters. <gokui>"

And for gokui, "The heart of the matter. Especially for scholarship and the Arts. <oku no te>"

This is where it gets interesting. <oku no te> in Kanji is "奥の手". There are 3 definitions:
1) Left hand
2) ougi/ secret (as in my previous posting)/gokui
3) Something not easily let known to other people in technique/conspiracy

To quote from Angry White Pyjamas (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688175376/sr=8-1/qid=1142046938/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9043157-4591261?%5Fencoding=UTF8) (an entertaining and interesting book) (page 223), "... and I saw Chida do ogi, secret techniques for the first time in a demonstration. He ordered two assistants to hoist him into the air, each assistant firmly holding one arm so that Chida was apparently helpless, two or three feet off the ground."

Now, I wonder why Mr Twigger translated ogi as 'secret techniques' - was it to get readers' attention? Maybe that's why it was translated as 'Hidden Techniques' in Total Aikido... although it might be good to ask a Japanese martial arts practitioner, what he thinks about when he sees or hears the word ogi <奥儀>

It also struck me that the demonstration described above is similar to what Tohei Sensei shows when he demonstrates ki - except that the ukes cannot lift him off the ground. I wonder whether Shioda Kancho and Tohei Sensei saw something similar in their training together... Hmmm...

Josh Reyer
03-11-2006, 05:45 AM
I should revise my statement: "Hidden Techniques" is probably not an imprecise translation, but I feel it can be imprecisely interpreted.

The idea of 奥義 and 極意 is that they are not on the surface. As Soon-Kian as suggested, they are at the "heart". They are like the center of an onion. They are "hidden" in the sense of "not easily seen", not exactly in the sense of "kept secret, hidden by somebody".

This can often be idiomatically rendered in English as secret, e.g., "the secret of my success". In this case we are not really talking about a secret kept from other people, but rather a non-obvious, perhaps non-observable cause, key, or way of doing things.

Ueshiba, for example, once said: "合気道の極意は、己を宇宙の動きと調和させ" "Aikido no gokui wa, onore wo uchuu no ugoki to chouwa sase", "The secret (gokui) of aikido is to match one's self with the movement of the universe..."

It was this nuance of 奥義 and 極意 that I wanted to convey. I apologize for not explaining myself clearly earlier.

kokyu
03-11-2006, 08:40 PM
If you look at this DVD link for Gokui by Shioda Yasuhisa (son of Shioda Kancho) (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=19234&cat=&page=2), the table of contents reads:

* Kihondosa
* Kihonwaza
* Shiho nage
* Ikkajo
* Nikajo
* Sankajo
* Yonkajo
* Shomen irimi nage
* Sokumen irimi nage
* Kote gaeshi
* Hiji ate kokyu nage
* Tenchi nage
* Hiji shime
* Kokyu ho
* Shomen uchi kokyu nage
* Oyo waza
* Goshin waza
* Ogi

I don't have the DVD, but it appears from the contents that Ogi by itself represent some kind of waza.

Ron Tisdale
03-13-2006, 06:52 AM
I looked again last night, and the section is entitled Ogi, and within that section are "the techniques of Gozo Shioda". So there is more linkage than I originally thought. But the first page of the section is the one that references principles, and that they should carry through all the waza.

Best,
Ron