PDA

View Full Version : Regrading grabs in Aikido...


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Roman Kremianski
02-17-2006, 06:14 PM
Hi

A while ago I showed my Father Ushiro ryokatadori Kotegashi. Afterwards he claimed that nobody would ever bother to grab you in such a way as Ushiro ryokatadori. I thought about it abit and decided to ask here: Just why exactly would grab you from behind by the shoulders or wrists? (e.g Ushiro Tekubitori).

I've seen more realistic grabs such as Kakaedori online, but for some reason my dojo doesn't practise them. (Atleast not during the duration I've spent there)

Thanks

Edwin Neal
02-17-2006, 06:41 PM
lots of people claim that 'that kind of attack would never happen' in a 'real' situation anything could and probably will happen, but through practice the aikidoka will apply the technique to the situation not the attack... spontaneously improvising...

MaryKaye
02-17-2006, 07:46 PM
My experience as a woman is that when a larger man is trying to intimidate or harass you, rear grabbing attacks are pretty common. The attacker may grab your shoulders to stop you leaving, or to shake you; he may grab your wrists to pull your arms behind you or to keep you from reaching for a door, telephone, weapon, etc. If his hands are big he may intend to collect both of your wrists in one hand and then get up to mischief with the other hand. It's a different dynamic than two people fighting outright.

The point in my life where I really wish I had had access to aikido involved a back shoulder grab or bear hug (I'm not positive which) to stop me from running away, followed by turning me around and grabbing from the front. I was still thinking of the person as a social peer and was not prepared to knee him in the groin, but something non-injurious but emphatic like sankyo would have improved the situation. (In retrospect, so would the knee to the groin. But it's difficult to switch tracks fast enough to realize that someone is no longer an associate but an assailant.)

All of the back grabs I've seen have been from straight behind, either static or as part of a pursuit. I'm not sure where you would ever see the version where you start in front of nage and run round him.

Mary Kaye

Edwin Neal
02-17-2006, 07:53 PM
good points Mary, but most men refuse to admit the same kinds of things can be done to them... we don't all beat our chests and bash each other in the face... in any altercation all kinds of grabs are likely... with enough practice you don't think about the type of 'grab' you just 'move' and do it... whatever technique flows from the attack/situation...

xuzen
02-17-2006, 08:50 PM
Hi

A while ago I showed my Father Ushiro ryokatadori Kotegashi. Afterwards he claimed that nobody would ever bother to grab you in such a way as Ushiro ryokatadori. I thought about it abit and decided to ask here: Just why exactly would grab you from behind by the shoulders or wrists? (e.g Ushiro Tekubitori).

I've seen more realistic grabs such as Kakaedori online, but for some reason my dojo doesn't practise them. (Atleast not during the duration I've spent there)

Thanks

Let's see Ushiro ryotekatatemochi....

In real life anything is possible, it is better to train for something that has some probablity, than to be completely be taken by surprise should such attack occur.

Another argument I can put forth is that training for such attack is plainly for completeness sake. And also for you to learn how to move your body from such a position.

IMO, such attack may occur when you may have more than one assailant; one grabbing you from behind, while another guy in front gets ready for a shomen tsuki (face punch).

Again, I reiterate, in real life, anything is possible, just train and be prepared.

Boon.

ChrisHein
02-17-2006, 09:08 PM
Hi

A while ago I showed my Father Ushiro ryokatadori Kotegashi. Afterwards he claimed that nobody would ever bother to grab you in such a way as Ushiro ryokatadori. I thought about it abit and decided to ask here: Just why exactly would grab you from behind by the shoulders or wrists? (e.g Ushiro Tekubitori).

I've seen more realistic grabs such as Kakaedori online, but for some reason my dojo doesn't practise them. (Atleast not during the duration I've spent there)

Thanks

Simple, if you are grabbing someone who has a knife in their hand. Actually any weapon in their hand, if you simply bear hug an armed guy when you are behind him (many would say this is a logical rear hold) an armed man will stab you. Aikido is a weapons system, not an unarmed one, if you look for unarmed answers you will find none.

-Chris Hein

NagaBaba
02-17-2006, 11:00 PM
Many attacks from behind were to prevent drawing out a sword, or/and to choke in the same time. Attacker didnt simply grab and stand waiting gently until you will have a good mood to do a technique. Attack from behind was/is to pull you down to the ground and to hurt/kill you.
Also, these kind of attacks are very difficult to deal with. One must develop 6th sens to feel attack just before someone touch you, without looking back.
It is very important part of practice.

Michael Meister
02-18-2006, 12:47 AM
Most people forget, the aim of an attack need not be to actually hurt someone. What is the easiest way to take a hostage? Grab from the back and eventually put a knife on the throat... There are probably lots of scenarios for attacks from the back, or moving into the back. Just takes a little bit fantasy.
Some people actually don't start from the front, but rather from the side, which is a more natural start for ushiro ryo kata(te) tori.

CNYMike
02-18-2006, 01:06 AM
Just why exactly would grab you from behind by the shoulders or wrists? (e.g Ushiro Tekubitori).


To hold you still while someone in front of you beat the living crap out of you. A rear barehug would work well for that, too.

One way I think of it is you're not so much worried about the grab itself as what comes after that. (The kata dori-<striking> combinations are for when you're too late.) You deal with the grab to forestall whatever would follow. (Although I also think the grabs are used first to make life easier for beginners, especially given how much longhair stuff there is in Aikido or any other internal art.)

Also, someone trying to sucker punch you from behind will grab you. This happened within the last year or two during a hockey game -- one player came up behind another one, grabed his collar with one hand, and hit the guy in the head. The player who'd been hit fell forward on the ice while still moving forward and his neck was very badly damaged, enough to end his career. It could have ended his life. And yes, that rear collar grab is also in Aikido, though I blank on the name at the moment.

So tell your dad attacks from the rear are serious business. Individuals intent on doing you in may not square off in front of you, especailly if he has a buddy who can hold you from behind.



I've seen more realistic grabs such as Kakaedori online, but for some reason my dojo doesn't practise them. (Atleast not during the duration I've spent there)

Thanks

If your dojo covers them, they might be considered advanced technique. Ushiro kubijime, where one hand grabs a wrist and the other goes for the throat, is also more "realistic," but maybe beginners don't see that just to make life easier for them. So don't worry if you haven't seen them.

Alec Corper
02-18-2006, 03:45 AM
As far as I know O Sensei stressed ushiro attacks as a means of training awareness and power to move to the back of the body thereby extending martial capacity to a 360 degree circle. The technical applications are secondary. Of course waza are important but the chances of any attack or response being like a dojo scenario is miniscule. Body movement and stickiness to your partners center irregardless of their angle of approach is far more important.
However if you want to look at it a different way try this: throw jodan tsuki and have your partner sidestep, deflect and grap then continue to circle with the intent to grab your other wrist for either a takedown, or holding before using the knee to the spinal column. These are both scenarios which give some useful input.
Rear collar is eri dori and like kubijime can be considered to be "realistic", but don't get too hung up on realism in the dojo, its mostly overrated and misunderstood, better focus on seeing and "listening" to your partner.
regards, Alec

jss
02-18-2006, 05:58 AM
As a variation to what Alec posted:

tori stands in left kamae, left hand extended at shoulder height;
uke grabs tori's left wrist with his left hand, pushes it down, moves in a 45 degree angle to tori's back and punches with his right hand to tori's face;
tori sidesteps to the right;
uke moves further behind tori;
tori pivots on left foor to the back, extending his elbow into uke's face.
After this learning experience uke will know why to go for the other wrist as well...

Not that realistic either, but it adds to the dynamics.

Josh Reyer
02-18-2006, 06:08 AM
One answer I haven't seen yet, is that you train with ushiro ryoutetori for the same reason you train morotetori. Not because it's necessarily a likely situation in combat (none of the kihon waza are really intended as realistic self-defense scenarios), but because it trains in the essential principles of the art. In this case, using kokyuu-ryoku (rather than muscle strength), keeping one's power centered, understanding maai, etc. In theory, if you can properly do a technique from a static ushiro ryoutetori, you can do it from a flowing ushiro katatori, kubishime, etc.

Roman Kremianski
02-18-2006, 07:42 AM
IMO, such attack may occur when you may have more than one assailant; one grabbing you from behind, while another guy in front gets ready for a shomen tsuki (face punch).

Well, wouldn't it make more sense for the attacker to grab with Ushiro ryohijidori?

Anyway, I think you guys sorted the issue for me. From what I've read, nage needs to adapt to the grab. Just a shame we don't practise something like "Bearhugs" where I train, as it would be helpful in dealing with the real thing, as opposed to winging it when it actually occurs.

Thanks again

batemanb
02-18-2006, 07:44 AM
The unpronouncable one is right. The first grab is to try and prevent you drawing the sword, or to stop you trying to cut with it if it's already out. Moving behind is a safe direction to go, and also an easy follow up attack.

Josh is also right, the techniques we train in Aikido are aimed at teaching principles, from a simple to understand perspective. Once you have an understanding, they can be applied to any attack.

Edwin's right too. Once you understand the principles it's all about your movement, techniques become a result of your movement rather than a result of your thought process, i.e. you don't think he's grabbed me I better do nikkyo, you just move and let whatever happen happen.

That's not to say everyone else is wrong, just picking out the bits I would have focused on.

In my class we train from the front moving behind, static from behind, and also add attacking from the side, you never know who's gonna step out of a doorway when you're walking down a street or alleyway.

rgds

Bryan

Don_Modesto
02-18-2006, 01:29 PM
A while ago I showed my Father Ushiro ryokatadori Kotegashi. Afterwards he claimed that nobody would ever bother to grab you in such a way as Ushiro ryokatadori.

1) True, we respond as we've trained. How we may be grabbed is relevant.
2) Not all training methods have immediate utility, as Scz... explained.

One of my favorite board reposts was that we practice shooting against paper targets rather than people and expect that to suffice for a "real" situation.

eyrie
02-18-2006, 07:13 PM
Also, if they are within range to grab, they are within range to strike. Rather than focusing on the specific type of grab, focus on tai-sabaki instead.

ChrisHein
02-18-2006, 09:55 PM
You should also be practicing your grabs when you are uke. Being uke is not just about giving your body as a training aid, you are also practicing your ability to hold someones wrist firmly, so they will not be able to move a weapon easily.

-Chris Hein

MaryKaye
02-19-2006, 01:33 AM
We have one teacher who likes to try different throws on our beginners' classes. One night he taught ushiro kubejime sankyo to a couple of people who'd been training maybe three weeks. It made for a really interesting class, because this is an upsetting attack no matter how slowly you do it. The students got to explore the difference between a panicky reaction to the choke and a calm one. I think it brought home the "calmness is essential" message very strongly. It's normally a second-kyu technique for us, but maybe we should teach it earlier.

Mary Kaye

Charles Hill
02-19-2006, 02:35 AM
Grabbing both hands from the rear is a kind of throw. O`Sensei does it in one of the films from AikiNews. Also, it is shown as a technique in a Daito Ryu book I have. You pull both hands to the rear, off balance the guy, bring both hands to the ground, step on them leaving your hands free to pull out a knife and cut the throat. At least that`s how it`s shown in the book!

Charles

senshincenter
02-19-2006, 12:55 PM
I would never say that something does not happen for real - since the most determining trait of what is real is that REAL can consist of ANYTHING.

However, I am 100% in line with Josh here. I do not see the "attacks" of Aikido as the beginning of self-defense scenarios. I would think one is doing him/herself a great disservice by understanding their training in this way. I think it is much better to see the "attacks" of basic Kihon Waza training as energy prints – prints that can be used to both measure and analyze force.

In my opinion, this gives one not only much more eventual chance of developing practical self-defense skills, this also gives one a deeper insight into the art. For example, using an energy print to analyze force, if you take mune-tsuki, it is very open to the criticism of "no one punches like that," but if you understand it as an energy print, you can see that it is the purist of all the possible manifestations capable of generating a thrusting force. If you see mune-tsuki as a punch, you are learning only how to deal against that punch - which is indeed not often manifested in the street and is a punch that is not showing great signs of skill regarding punching. However, if you see it as an energy print, as a thrusting force, you will see that you can learn a lot more about an even greater amount of things by practicing against something that “no one would ever do.”

For me, when we train in any of the Katadori, we are looking to focus in on using an energy print to measure force. In particular, in much of Aikido Kihon Waza, it is very important for both Body Fusion and Directional Harmony to be present among the homolateral shoulder and the hip (with the elbow also often becoming a third element to this relationship). Techniques that cannot maintain these two concepts are very prone to failure. This Body Fusion and Directional Harmony, of course, has to be done with the predetermined sources of power (e.g. ground path, relaxation, using the muscles along the underside/back of the body, etc.) that Aikido holds in value. In other words, you can’t “muscle” this. As one is learning how to do this, the real weak point that one can use to both measure his/her skill, and thereby to better calibrate themselves, is the shoulder. Two things tend to happen in the beginner when they are developing this skill and when the shoulder is being used as a measuring point (like in Katadori): 1) The shoulder gives away its relationship with the hip (and/or elbow) – losing Body Fusion and Directional Harmony; and/or 2) the student attempts to wrongly muscle the shoulder into “maintaining” its relationship with the hip (and/or elbow). This is important information to obtain because you can’t fix the problem if you don’t know about it.

When this is done from the rear, as in Ushiro Ryokata-dori, one is still measuring for such things but now from a different angle – which is important to do since single angles tend to produce bracing energies in the student (which one wants to avoid). If one is doing their Ushiro Waza more dynamically, one can actually measure for the correct holding and placement of the shoulder against many angles when practicing Ushiro Ryokata-dori. Additionally, Ushiro Waza, when it is looked at as an energy print, is vital in learning how to go from the inside to the outside of an attack and/or how to stay in the “sweet spot” on the inside of the attack using tenkan and tenkan-like maneuvers. This skill, in my opinion, is vital to the overall balance of one’s art and even to its practical applications, and it is a skill that is far from being only applicable against “attacks” from the rear. For, while you should be learning how not to be attacked from the rear, and while you should be learning how to deal with that if you are, you are going to want to know how to move from the inside to the outside of an attack or how to stay in the “sweet spot” on the inside of an attack when it is coming at you from the front via tenkan and tenkan-like maneuvers (i.e. maneuvers that have you turning the opposite direction of the incoming energy). This skill is necessary in my opinion, and there is no better way of developing it than through Ushiro Waza training.

My advice is to tell your dad you are not learning about a single self-defense situation, that rather you are learning about the motion that underlies all self-defense situations (and a whole lot more).

dmv

mathewjgano
02-19-2006, 04:36 PM
I remember the first time I saw Aikido I thought it must be a scam. Some of the attacks I saw looked unrealistic and I thought "that guy attacking is just letting himself get thrown around." I still gave it a try and after training a while it began to make a little more sense to me. I liked one of the earlier post's remarks regarding spontaneous technique. We train in specific ways (sometimes in a way that is highly unlikely to happen in a self-defense situation) to develop body-feel and increase kinetic awareness. Someone tried to punch me one time and I responded with a technique I'd never practiced before. I think that's the kind of thing we're training for; not to be caught up in the specific movements themselves, but in the principles which they're designed to make us familiar with. It was from katatoriwaza that I first began to intentionally move from the hara/center, for example, and that in turn began to make other techniques a little easier for me.

ChrisHein
02-19-2006, 07:22 PM
Energy prints....
I wish you would quit making up your own little words and try to convey your points to people who don't use your own personal vocabulary. It's like I'm talking to Peter Ralston.

Aikido is much simpler then all that. Shomen and yokomen are cuts, Tsuki is a stab, Wrist grabs are wrist grabs, they are meant to hold someone's wrist. The techniques of Aikido are meant to clear your hands when someone is grabbing them, so you can go back useing your weapon (cutting and stabbing). If you want to learn effective means of unarmed self defense Aikido is not an efficient means of doing so, if you want to learn to defend yourself with weapons Aikido is a good choice. People who fight understand fighting is simple, if you want to learn to punch a guy, you practice punching guys, if you want to learn to keep someone from stabbing you you practice holding their wrist, it's not rocket science, it's fighting.

-Chris

senshincenter
02-19-2006, 07:57 PM
Some explanation went with the term - it should be easy enough to understand.

I think there are a few things here...

First, there is the fact that anyone serious about practicing Aikido today - as a living art - should figure out a way of "translating" or "transferring" that art into the present - into the here and now. The concept of energy print (which is not a new one - only the vocabulary is new) is one way of doing that. Seeing Shomenuchi, Yokomenuchi, and Tsuki as merely (literally) cuts and stabs is one way of not doing that in my opinion.

Second, while it is nice every once in a while to have some guy show you how Nikyo is a counter to a weapon or an armed wrist grab, not every cue in the Aikido Kihon Waza curriculum is going to follow this line of thought - so it is clear that even back "when" (you pick the when) such cues were not so literally understood.

Third, Aikido Kihon Waza is hardly a stepping stone to learning how to fight with weapons today - perhaps you meant, "If you ever want to learn how to fight with a sword when someone grabs at your sword and/or at your hand on the sword, Aikido is a good choice." I certainly wouldn't put the general Aikido out there as allowing one to learn how to fight with firearms, knives, sticks, and/or even swords. Additionally, if Aikido is being understood to literally address such things as knife cuts with its Shomenuchi and/or Yokomenuchi, I wouldn't even say it's allowing one to learn how to defend against such weapons.

Fourth, I have the complete opposite experience with learning how not to get stabbed - such that - mine would suggest, "If you want to get stabbed, try to learn how to hold a knife-fighter's wrist like you would in Katate-dori."

Fifth, the idea that fighting is simple is a marketing gimmick in my experience. No expert in the field, not one that I can respect, has ever said anything close to that. You must be hanging out with different experts - which is very possible. Same goes with Aikido - never heard anyone worthy of listening to say, "Aikido is simple," - at least not such that they immediately veer away from things that may not make sense to them at first glance.

ChrisHein
02-19-2006, 09:23 PM
David,
It is clear to me that you are more interested in intellectual masturbation then actual martial ability.

-Chris

Edwin Neal
02-19-2006, 10:04 PM
Chris your attitude and rudeness are uncalled for and unwanted... you only show your lack of understanding...

Aikido IS an effective means of self defense, both armed and unarmed... specifically unarmed as the carrying of weapons in Japan during Osensei's lifetime was illegal... aikido IS the practice of punching and preventing being stabbed, and a whole bunch of other stuff, but you obviously have no clue... if you doubt aikido's effectiveness quit wasting your time and stop wasting mine with your rude comments and total misunderstanding of what aikido is... and don't bother replying to my post... i doubt you have anything intelligent to add to the discussion...

Rupert Atkinson
02-19-2006, 10:19 PM
One answer I haven't seen yet, is that you train with ushiro ryoutetori for the same reason you train morotetori. Not because it's necessarily a likely situation in combat (none of the kihon waza are really intended as realistic self-defense scenarios), but because it trains in the essential principles of the art. In this case, using kokyuu-ryoku (rather than muscle strength), keeping one's power centered, understanding maai, etc. In theory, if you can properly do a technique from a static ushiro ryoutetori, you can do it from a flowing ushiro katatori, kubishime, etc.

This, I think, is the answer that best suits me.

PeterR
02-19-2006, 10:27 PM
David,
It is clear to me that you are more interested in intellectual masturbation then actual martial ability.
So David likes to write long posts - but that was uncalled for.

senshincenter
02-19-2006, 10:29 PM
David,
It is clear to me that you are more interested in intellectual masturbation then actual martial ability.

-Chris

Real nice Chris. Thanks.

The silliness that you say what you say in an Internet forum must have passed over your head with everything else - it is clear to me.

Now all you got to do is write me again to tell me you won't be writing me anymore. :freaky:

Oh well - sorry for the stress you are feeling - if I had any part in that. Have a good rest of the evening.

Take care,
dmv

ChrisHein
02-19-2006, 10:44 PM
David,
I didn't mean that as an insult, I'm simply saying that you are more interested in intellectualizing Aikido then you are in understanding what it is. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I'm just calling them as I see them. I believe you are a very sincere person, who really wants to understand the system, but I think you're over thinking it. In post after post you talk all the way around the subject, addressing it with more and more intellectualization, I think you're a very smart person, but maybe that's keeping you from seeing what the system is.

-Chris

Edwin Neal
02-19-2006, 11:00 PM
hey chris... i'm not angry, and there is no need to PM me just to say that, i just don't like assholes who are rude... tried looking at your website, but there isn't any info on you... so i stand by my earlier assertion that you don't really know much about aikido... i have doubts that you have even studied with any teacher of even mediocre skill or understanding... read some of the threads that you started here and they only reinforce my opinion... if you have something intelligent to say, which i doubt, just say it without being rude, and then trying to act like you weren't... allow me to break protocol and ask how long you have studied and with whom? books and videos and wrestling with your boyfriends doesn't count...

ps for what it's worth i will take what david thinks over your bull any day...

senshincenter
02-19-2006, 11:09 PM
Chris,

If I thought like that, I'd be saying the same thing when reading Osensei - "Man, why you got to make things so complex - it must be because you don't get it?!"

Before you know if someone is off the mark, you got to know you understand them - and you've already said you couldn't. This is not calling them like you seem them, this is calling them when you can't see them. There's a difference - right? Moreover, there are better ways of expressing your disagreement with something - assuming one can express their point of view - and that is what this forum is about (in my opinion). It is about dissimilar views coming into contact with each other - it is not about two folks saying, "Well, you think differently that I do, so you must be lame."

There were many points I offered in my second to last post to you that you did not address. For example, your idea that Aikido has no answers in hand-to-hand situations but does so for weapons fighting is something that may only be clear to you - it's not to me. I would imagine it is not clear to a great many other people - especially folks that train in the usage of current weapons. I was trying to have a dialog. Only one of us was trying to go away and keep his ideas to himself - since you brought up the masturbation reference.

Additionally, I think it is an unwise assumption on your part to feel that if one THINKS that one is not DOING. Perhaps that is your experience - but my experience is quite different. My teachers have always managed to do both - always feeling you need to do both. To discuss something, we have to allow for different experiences. I do not try to universalize my experience and see you through that light only - which is why I may first feel that your view could only come from someone that has at most trained 5 to 15 years in one or an accumulated several martial arts, focusing mainly on forms training (with hints of pseudo-spontaneity training), with practice consisting mostly of 2 to 4 hours a week. I don't run with that idea because I know it is very likely, no matter how plausible it first seems otherwise,that I would be completely wrong about you if that is what I thought based solely on a paragraph or two that you wrote. Like I said in another thread - I'd like to see video of you before I even start down that road of trying to figure out where your ideas are coming from. In short, it is a mistake to go backwards from idea to person when we are opting to only see the world through our own subjective (extremely) limited perspective. A broader mind is needed here. If one doesn't want to broaden their mind, that's fine - only I wonder why such a person would post at all since not posting would be the surest way of keeping one's ideas all to oneself.

ChrisHein
02-19-2006, 11:27 PM
I can understand what you are saying, but I don't' understand why you would explain yourself in such a way, it is far more complicated then you need make it. You should be looking to make the complicated simple, not the other way around.

About the 5-15 years you are correct, I've only been studying Aikido 10 years. In that 10 years, I've been uchi deshi for a year of if, studying full time 4-5 classes a day, and done and average of 3-4 classes a week for most of the rest of that. I have studied Aikido under Patrick Cassidy, and Brazilian Jiu jutsu and chinese internal under Tim Cartmell. I have fought in several mma and bjj tournaments, and I have fought with the dog brothers. Only 10 years though, hmm if I were training to be a doctor I'd be out of residency by now, do you think Aikido is more complicated then medical science? I know many great fighters that have had professional fights in much less time in then 10 years. This is part of the problem that I am talking about, fighting is pretty simple, and I would say anyone telling you other wise is probably the one using a marketing gimmick.

Fighting is simple, but the study of if can last a life time, that's the beauty of it. When you are trying to tell new people about Aikido you shouldn't be complicating the matter, that makes it seem to me that you are more interested in talking about the experience then trying to help others experience the experience.

-Chris Hein

Edwin Neal
02-19-2006, 11:50 PM
yeah it all sounds pretty good, but you don't sound like a very good student... and your understanding of aikido is pretty different than most people here, and people i have studied with... and i trust their opinions more than your half baked notions... it is pretty obvious from your posts that you have a flawed understanding of aikido... and you can't get it from wearing a t shirt either...

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=mr_chris-users

Charlie
02-20-2006, 12:15 AM
who is Peter Ralston?

senshincenter
02-20-2006, 01:15 AM
About the 5-15 years you are correct, I've only been studying Aikido 10 years. In that 10 years, I've been uchi deshi for a year of if, studying full time 4-5 classes a day, and done and average of 3-4 classes a week for most of the rest of that. I have studied Aikido under Patrick Cassidy, and Brazilian Jiu jutsu and chinese internal under Tim Cartmell. I have fought in several mma and bjj tournaments

Well, then I wasn't too far off - was I? But isn't it a bit silly then to tell someone that does your training week in half a day that thinking means not doing?

Either way, I get your point - how I speak is not your cup of tea. Perfectly understandable and definitely acceptable.

Thanks again for letting me know,
dmv

ChrisHein
02-20-2006, 01:24 AM
Well, then I wasn't too far off - was I? But isn't it a bit silly then to tell someone that does your training week in half a day that thinking means not doing?
dmv


How many full contact stick fights have you been in?

-Chris Hein

James Smithe
02-20-2006, 01:42 AM
It looks like James Smithe is gonna have to call you on some stuff Chris. You have fought in MMA and BJJ tournaments? Whats your stand up. Chinse internal that could mean antying.
What do you mean you fought with the dog brothers, do you mean train because that's believable fighting with them is not. I noticed you put your picture on the web wouldn't someone like you also put video of your tournaments on the web too.
Name the Governing body of the tournaments that you entered, what rank/weight class you were in and which place did you achieve. Until you show proof everything you said will be thought of as bull.

A lot of people here don't think kindly of me, but what you said to David was totally rude and not even I said anything remotely like that even when people considered me an arse.

ChrisHein
02-20-2006, 01:53 AM
I have fought with the dog bothers, not trained. There is video of me fighting with them on there staff fighting video, I fought Ben Shariden "lonely dog", you can see a clip of it at the dog brothers web site. I am wearing white gi pants and the very same shirt that Edwin is talking about in an earlier post. I have never had a professional fight, I have fought in several of Cleber Lucianos tournaments, the Machado world grappling games, and the annual shen wu tournament. If you have any doubts I'm sure you can send an e-mail to Tim Cartmell, he can testify for my authenticity as a fighter in both MMA, BJJ, and a full contact stick fight with the dog brothers.

Tim Carmells web site: www.shenwu.com
Dog brothers: www.dogbrothers.com

Again if you doubt my stick fight with the dog brothers it's all documented, and you can see for yourself.

-Chris Hein

p.s. My web site is not fully functional yet, I'm not as web savy as I should be.

James Smithe
02-20-2006, 02:36 AM
I'm having trouble locating you on the staff video can you give me the exact time where you appear. I'm not asking Tim Carmells I'm asking you. Just name the exact tournaments that you entered recently, what rank/weight class you were in and which place did you achieve. It's not unusual to enter these things, but alot of people like to come online and say stuff they didn't do or make what they did do out of proportion.

Do you use Aikido as your stand up? You said you've been doing it for ten years so you must use it as your primary stand up right?

ChrisHein
02-20-2006, 02:43 AM
I weigh about 200 right now, I think I weighed 185 there, I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, I fought in a stick fight, I have fought in MMA and Bjj. I'm not a super cage fighter, and no one has ever flown me to japan to fight, I'm just a guy who has done Aikido and been in several fights. I however and not going to watch the video till I find the right time, here is a link to a shen wu forum There is a disscussion there on my fight, if you search my name (chris Hein) number 5-Shen Wu : Fight Art 2: smaller files (Shenwu in Action): Archive through May 04, 2004

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

There are pictures on there of me fighting, you can then look at the clip again, and see it's me.

I haven't fought in a few years, I got sick of making weight, and dealing with the stress.


Now I'm going to bed, I've been at this sillyness too too long today.
-Chris Hein

justinmaceachern
02-20-2006, 07:25 AM
Every time i come on here all i here is a bunch of bs. Personally i will stick to what Valadaz is saying. Chris i am sure your ability to fight with sticks are good. To be honest with you i enjoy watching people with sticks go at it. Man they are just sticks, not much of a acomplishment.
Secondly If you think there is way to simplify aikido then you have been under the wrong influance. Now i havent been studying as long as you guys, I am only a 3rd kyu, but i actualy study the art inside and out. there is nothing simple about aikido.
Thirdly your coments to Valadez Sensei are uncalled for. This is an open forum, that does not mean you have the right to express opinions in a rude manner. Now i am not doubting your abilities,
I have been reserching your Sensei Mr. cassidy in fact i will be training with one of his students in nova scotia, a Mr. Andrew Waight. And i dont believe they share the same views as you do.
IMOO when you start to simplafy an art you start to water it down(Soften up), I know all to well i have been there with my experience in Taekwondo with the diference between the two styles of taekwondo (ITF and WTF).
These are just my thoughts

rottunpunk
02-20-2006, 07:43 AM
eh ehrm. Anyways, back on topic.

We were doing ushiro attacks a couple of weeks ago. I agree with the comment about it teaching kokyu, (which sparked off my extension thread)

In addition, my teacher commented that most women get attacked from behid (i can personally see the shoulder grab being realistic but not the wrists) but who said a martial art had to be realistic?
Its along the lines of people who say doing iai or kendo is useless.

:p

justinmaceachern
02-20-2006, 12:02 PM
Chris my thread might of came out the wrong way, in no means was i trying to insult or offend. If i did please let me know. and i will say high to Mr. Weight.
PS thanks for the corection

Edwin Neal
02-20-2006, 12:23 PM
well said James...

senshincenter
02-20-2006, 12:29 PM
(Skip if too long - you are right about this being silliness. Nothing is likely to change here. You didn't like the term "energy prints" and you don't like folks thinking about the art/practice. Got it.)

(For others, I tried to suggest a way of tying this back into the thread - it's at the end of this post)



I've never been in a stick fight - only spontaneous training situations with contact. As you can see, I make a distinction between the two.

In those times, even in that dueling setup, I never grabbed the opponent's stick or wrist, or at least not without getting whacked to high hell from some other weapon (the opposite hand, knife, or club). In your fight with the Dog Brothers, how many times did you control their weapon (and the rest of their weapons) by grabbing at their wrist?

The reason I suspected so accurately concerning your training is that your views seemed "half-baked." I mean that they are good ideas, good starts for further ideas, but that they are not yet thought out completely, to determine if they can remain internally consistent or if they end up contradicting themselves. It is not as you would like us to believe that you do not commit the "crime" of thinking about your art/practice. However, in my opinion, it is that you have put in that X amount of time only, and that this time only allows for a given amount of sophistication regarding thinking about one's practice. Things get increased on top of that because X amount of time also often allows one to hold conclusions that are half-baked but in a way that that the unbaked half goes completely unnoticed.

For example, your understanding of Aikido Kihon Waza being about weapons fighting and about weapon retention, etc., and that only, etc...

Undoubtedly, since I doubt with four hours per week you are spending enough time doing the techniques this way (i.e. with a weapon ready to be retained or drawn), such that you can reach this conclusion on your own, I imagine this conclusion came to you via some other teacher that you respect. That's perfectly fine - we all do that. But now you are working backwards in your training - starting with a conclusion and then trying to figure everything into it so that it makes sense universally. Additionally, you are rejecting everything a priori - anything that does not fly with it from the get-go. This is why "not thinking" is so important to you. It is a huge part of what is allowing your position to appear consistent - for if you thought about things a bit more, or if you developed a training practice in Aikido that would force you to think about things a bit more, you'd quickly realize that this view can hardly be universally applied to the art's Kihon Waza.

For if you thought but just a little, you'd at least ask, "If that is all Aikido is, then why don't we just train like that - why don't we do like some of the Koryu arts and place a sword in our obi and thus train to retain and/or to arm our weapons? Why go on into Ikkyo, Irimi Nage, etc. If you asked this, you'd have no way of making sense of how Aikido training ends up departing from the training and architecture of having a sword in your obi, going on to arm it or to retain it.

Or, if you started thinking a bit historically, which one does after many hours of training have been accumulated - you'd have one heck of a time making sense of your position regarding Aikido Kihon Waza and Osensei's constant statements that he was into the universal movements of Nature, etc. - that he never said nor hinted that Aikido should be looked at with so minimalistic a view, being an art that WAS ONLY ABOUT fighting with weapons and/or retaining weapons, etc.

Or, if you spent more hours training on the mat per week, you would probably more easily come across cues/attacks/energy prints that don't at all fit the model of arming a weapon and/or retaining a weapons - such as with eri dori, kata dori, kubishime katate dori, etc. For example, if I am grabbed in kubishime katate-dori, with my knife being in the middle of my front, I am able to grab it with either hand - why go on to all this other stuff (i.e. ikkyo, irimi nage) if I can just stab my attacker there? If I'm into weapons fighting and if I'm into that being martially practical, why do I want to go on to do Irimi Nage, then stabbing my felled opponent, risking all that room for countering, reversals, etc., when I can just simply stab them right then and there in the midst of their attack? That would be a question that would naturally spring to mind and that one would have a tough time answering if one was to dogmatically stick with the idea that Aikido is not about empty-hand fighting.

I can agree with you that there are some levels of not training that are very much supported by thinking too much, however this level of thought is easily identifiable because of the ignorant simplicity it contains (i.e. it leaves out more than it includes). Regardless, I would like to suggest that there is also a level of not thinking that is equally supported by a level of not training.

When someone way out in cyberspace can predict a training experience so accurately based upon how much a person did not want to think, it's time to get a hold of a little self-doubt and wonder if one is subject to the latter criticism - to wonder if one is being truly insightful by throwing the first criticism out there or if one is just protecting one's own status quo of having only developing ideas and a developing training regiment.

All that said, here is a simple experiment to see how easy or how hard Aikido is - taken right from this thread...so it should bring us back to the thread topic...

Stand in a natural stance. Have your friend, who is standing in front of you, put his/her cross-lateral hand on your shoulder and offer some resistance to your forward progress. Attempt to step forward with your homo-lateral leg (same leg as your shoulder). Watch how what is easy is to break the body fusion between your shoulder and your same side hip and how difficult it is to maintain this relationship without muscling or forcing it, without losing your connection to the ground, without losing environmental awareness, without losing a martially viable posture, etc. Repeat this experiment from the back, from the side, from the angle, etc. - then one will know a good reason for doing kata-dori training. The reason: Because it's hard to move right when your shoulder is a weak-point, and it's easy to have your shoulder as a weak-point in the hip-elbow-shoulder relationship.

MattRice
02-20-2006, 01:56 PM
...i can personally see the shoulder grab being realistic but not the wrists...


You know, I heard this news story about a journalist in Iraq, who was nearly abducted wtihin sight of some marines in a guard tower. They broke it up, but her description of the attempt starts out: "Someone grabbed my wrist from behind and started pulling me down the street"

Another guy came and grabbed her around the waist after the initial contact and they were trying to get her into a car. It's just one incident but I think that wrist grabs are more common than folks think.


.02.

senshincenter
02-20-2006, 02:58 PM
Adding to that, the one time my wife was "attacked" for real - an older man had grabbed her shoulder. She had trained for a bit in Karate at that time - couldn't budge or budge the man (or his grip) for nothing. It was and remains quite a shocking realization for her.

James Smithe
02-20-2006, 06:04 PM
I weigh about 200 right now, I think I weighed 185 there, I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, I fought in a stick fight, I have fought in MMA and Bjj. I'm not a super cage fighter, and no one has ever flown me to japan to fight, I'm just a guy who has done Aikido and been in several fights. I however and not going to watch the video till I find the right time, here is a link to a shen wu forum There is a disscussion there on my fight, if you search my name (chris Hein) number 5-Shen Wu : Fight Art 2: smaller files (Shenwu in Action): Archive through May 04, 2004

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

There are pictures on there of me fighting, you can then look at the clip again, and see it's me.

I haven't fought in a few years, I got sick of making weight, and dealing with the stress.


Now I'm going to bed, I've been at this sillyness too too long today.
-Chris Hein

Since when is fighting with body armor full contact Chris? I looked at the video and it looks like you fought in a tournament. You didn't really fight it was a tournament. Do I need to explain the difference between tournament fighting and a straight fight?
You refuse to directly answer my questions about what place you got in these tournaments. I'll have to assume that you failed so misrably that you shouldn't even mentioned you entered any of these tournaments.
I looked up what a San Shou tournament is. They say it's full contact but they wear a HELMET with a piece of plastic protecting your face. None of the things you mentioned are full contact. Also it doesn't sound like you use Aikido as your primary stand up so you must not be good at it.

Heres an example of something that's full contact. Notice the lack of armor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rta0qUlxE5s&search=Kumite

senshincenter
02-20-2006, 06:43 PM
Let's see if we can get back to the topic of the thread. I think the point here was to allow folks their opinion - everyone has a right to one. So let's share some more.

thanks,
dmv

ChrisHein
02-20-2006, 10:56 PM
David, you are very happy that you guessed my training was in-between 5-15 years, You certainly did narrow it down; to 10 years! Excellent!

James, that clip you offered as full contact, it's a joke right? Have you seen a stick fight as done by the dog brothers? The only armor you ware is a fencing mask (ever ware a fencing mask, not exactly what I would call armor) and gloves, nothing else is padded, and you use real rattan sticks, comparing the way the dog brothers fight to that clip is laughable.

David your opinion of Aikido and mine differ, this is clear. You believe that I should spend more hours in the Dojo, and maybe I would have a more sophisticated view if I had another 20 years under my belt. I think you should leave the safety of your dojo, and try actually fighting. I think you have lots more training time then me, but much less actual experience, I think it's very strange that you believe dojo time is more important then actual fighting time, in short I don't' think you are qualified to tell me what Aikido is, or is not.

-Chris Hein
If anyone would like to continue this, you can send me a PM, as this thread has degenerated, and that is not my intention.

James Smithe
02-21-2006, 02:14 AM
This thread has degenerated because you made ridiculoous claims and people felt compelled to tell you how ridiculous your claims are. When people tried to set you straight instead of reading what they said you posted this.

David,
It is clear to me that you are more interested in intellectual masturbation then actual martial ability.

eyrie
02-21-2006, 03:35 AM
It doesn't take great skill to beat the crap out of someone, with or without a stick. What most VTGs think is a "fight", is nothing more than a sport in which blows are traded. A real fight has more to do with being prepared to kill or be killed. It doesn't require anything more than the intent and desire to maim, disable or kill someone. IM(NSH)E. ;)

Besides, stick fighting sounds more like escrima to me than aikido.... which has nothing to do with this topic. ;)

senshincenter
02-21-2006, 07:42 AM
I think it's very strange that you believe dojo time is more important then actual fighting time, in short I don't' think you are qualified to tell me what Aikido is, or is not.

The reason I put spontaneous sparring sessions and/or sporting events under the category of training time should be obvious. The reason I put more emphasis on training time over street time is because street time requires much less skill of us - because of the quality of the "opponent."

I don't think I'm trying to tell you what Aikido is as much as participate in a discussion over what Aikido may be to each of us. My first point is to allow myself, and you as well, of course, a right to an opinion. I choose to respect your right to an opinion by offering a reply worthy of its consideration - which is quite different from be bothered by someone else thinking about Aikido differently than oneself and/or writing in just to tell someone to stop writing, etc.

There were many chances for you to reply here and to stay on topic or at least to stay in the forum format. We don't have to talk about who is qualified and/or not once we agree that everyone can and should have an opinion here.

Do you have any comments on those points made regarding your view of Aikido and it being a weapon art only? Or at least, could you answer and let us know how many times you grab the wrist of one of the Dog Brothers during your match? I don't think me raising those points and/or asking these questions is me suggesting I am more qualified than you to tell you what your Aikido should be - they are just questions, part of a discussion. In the end, our opinions are meaningless here.

dmv

Mark Freeman
02-21-2006, 09:06 AM
If anyone wants to be really impressive about their 'martial skills' I would be really impressed if they took themselves off to Ethiopia and met with the male Surma warriors and entered into one of their 'stick fighting competitions'. These guys use 8' hardwood sticks and they weild them with skill, power, speed and ferocity. Oh yes, and they don't wear much clothing let alone headgear. The only fighter that would stand a cats chance in hell in getting anywhere near them would need to be armed with some sort of projectile weapon. The only rule is that you are not allowed to kill your opponent, and that you don't hit someone on the ground. The fights regularly end with serious bumps, deep lacerations, broken bones and lost teeth. But the guys consider it worth it as the winner is seen as a very desirable catch for the women. It also serves as a function of settling old scores.
http://www.africanceremonies.com/ceremonies/largephotopages/12surmastick.html

The macho testosterone fuelled western fighting competitions are quite tame by comparison.

back to the thread..

Aikido is neither armed or unarmed it is both and at the same time neither. Aikido is much more than just a 'fighting art' it can be studied like that I admit, but I personally wouldn't want to study an art and only cover one aspect. A bit like being an artist and thinking that watercolour was the only medium!
Aikido can be practiced purely for the 'beauty inherent in the movement' I have known some contemporary dancers study aikido for this reason. And before any of you 'martialists' start to scoff, close the lid on your paints, they'll dry out while you are typing.
Aikido can be practiced for philosophical/spiritual developement reasons, as it also can be practiced specifically to add to ones understanding conflict resolution priciples applicable in the 'real world'. A much more laudible reason in my book that to become a more effective 'fighter'.
I think there are people out there who have never stepped into a dojo who are more in tune with the central meaning of aikido than some who practice it.

As for the wrist grabs.. well as I see it, they are there to provide a route to understanding the principles of aiki not to provide a 'if he does this I do that" menu for use in a 'fight' This is what provides us something to practice with, along with all the other unarmed or armed attacks.
As for grabing someones wrist when they have a weapon in their hand, where I learn my aikido this is not done. It is seen as a route to losing your fingers or worse.
The more time spent looking at the 'fight' aspects of aikido, the less time spent appreciating the sheer beauty of an art that has 'limitless' application.
We should celebrate the art for what it is a way of harmony with ki/nature/spirit.
Multi media art is more creative and ultimately more fullfilling than simply looking at watercolours endlessly.
As far as I know O'sensei was challenged many times and never defeated, why do people keep questioning aikidos martial effectiveness, maybe because they doubt themselves.

So the next time someone starts flouting their fighting credentials, ask them if they have been in a Surma stick fight.. ;)

just my 2 penneth worth,

regards,
Mark
p.s. I think I'd have a much better chance of disarming someone weilding a bokken or jo than one of the Surma with an 8' stick!

ChrisHein
02-21-2006, 12:49 PM
"Do you have any comments on those points made regarding your view of Aikido and it being a weapon art only? Or at least, could you answer and let us know how many times you grab the wrist of one of the Dog Brothers during your match? I don't think me raising those points and/or asking these questions is me suggesting I am more qualified than you to tell you what your Aikido should be - they are just questions, part of a discussion. In the end, our opinions are meaningless here."

Admittedly in my dog brothers fight, I did not grab the wrist, I how ever did grab the weapon, an option I would not have had if the weapon was bladed.
In a fight you have two option if your going to grab your attacker, you can grab an appendage, or the core of the body, in an unarmed fight the choice is clear, you should grab the core of the body, you will have more control over your opponent and it will enable you to do more with him. However in an armed fight going for the core of a persons body and neglecting his weapon hand is a very good way to get yourself cut or stabbed. Neglecting a knock out you cannot (in an armed fight) go for a mans core and disregard his hands without expecting to be cut, stabed, or shot.
Now if I was fighting a guy with a bladed weapon, I would not have been able to grab his weapon, and I would have had to grab his wrist. In my fight yes it did go to grappling, as I believe 90% of fights will if there is not a knock out, a loss of heart, or a death.

There was another thread on here discussing how dangerous it is to use a weapon in a real fight, when someone can take that weapon away from you, Aikido is a system that teaches you to keep your weapon, and stay in position to use it again.

-Chris Hein

Budd
02-21-2006, 02:27 PM
As for this thread's topic . . .

Regarding wrist-grabs, shoulder grabs and grabs in general:

How do you think grapplers work? Not every grappler (especially the smart ones) is going to shoot for your legs in a real world confrontation? Wrist-grabs and shoulder grabs are also an excellent means of limb control/displacement if you're trying to bridge the distance to get close enough for core body work (through different types of grips, clinching and hooking) -- especially when someone's also trying to hit you back :grin:

Or better yet . . . ask a collegiate wrestler to demonstrate one-on-one or two-on-one wrist control.

Judo players? Give 'em a shoulder grab and any change in the relationship of your shoulders-to-hips will be enough for them to send you on a trip (yes, I know, bad pun).

Granted, plenty of wrist/shoulder grabs I've seen from an aikido perspective treat the grab as the end-all of the attack, rather than a transitional position to manipulate, close or strike (or club or stab, if we're also factoring in the weapons paradigm).

I can see that way of practice from the standpoint of using your connection with uke as the means of subtly developing aiki and refining your form. But, in my opinion, you also (at some point) have to train against attacks of integrity such that any kind of grab can/will be followed by a strike, throw or worse if you stand there doing nothing. It's good training for both uke and nage.

tarik
02-21-2006, 02:35 PM
In my fight yes it did go to grappling, as I believe 90% of fights will if there is not a knock out, a loss of heart, or a death.

I personally believe that this is a fallacy... basically marketing speak from the BJJ crowd.

In my immediate recollection of 5 actual street fights I, as a young foolish person, was personally involved in when growing up in Texas and North Africa only once did any of the fights go to the ground. In a different one, I was knocked down and my opponent watched me get up rather attack me on the ground.

Anecdotally speaking, of course.... but that's only 20% of the fights in my immediate memory. I can think about many more fights I either witnessed or was involved in, but I know that the only other ground fighting I've ever done has been while training or engaged in various sports activities.

To the point of the rest of this thread.

When practicing kihon waza, it is my belief that we are training fundamental principles. Move the grab from wrists to elbows to shoulder to neck to hair or what have you, the ingrained principles are the same and what you need to do to make the technique 'work' should be pretty much the same.

David, while it is unusual terminology, I have heard the phrase energy print used before as an attempt to explain the learning of principles, usually in academic circles.

I also happen to believe that Aikido IS simple. Not easy, but simple, and that being human, we often make such things much more complex than need to be in our attempt to understand depth and difficulty.

Regards,

Tarik

ChrisHein
02-21-2006, 03:34 PM
Tarik, nice post.
Lots of people have differnt oppinions about how often fights go to the ground, in most of the fights I've been involved in, someone ended up on the ground, usually with someone else on top of them whailing away, but I believe what you say, and I'm sure a great number of fights never end up on the ground.

As for the kihon waza training fundamental principles, I believe that's the definition of kihon waza, but other unarmed styles train their kihon from the most common positions they will be in, in a fight, i.e. the clinch, or from a common hold (headlock, bear hug etc.), they do this to insure that their practitioners are comfortable fighting in the positions they will most certainly be in. It's strange that Aikido doesn't do the same.

"I also happen to believe that Aikido IS simple. Not easy, but simple, and that being human, we often make such things much more complex than need to be in our attempt to understand depth and difficulty."

Nicely said.

Budd,

"How do you think grapplers work? Not every grappler (especially the smart ones) is going to shoot for your legs in a real world confrontation? Wrist-grabs and shoulder grabs are also an excellent means of limb control/displacement if you're trying to bridge the distance to get close enough for core body work (through different types of grips, clinching and hooking) -- especially when someone's also trying to hit you back :grin:

Or better yet . . . ask a collegiate wrestler to demonstrate one-on-one or two-on-one wrist control.

Judo players? Give 'em a shoulder grab and any change in the relationship of your shoulders-to-hips will be enough for them to send you on a trip (yes, I know, bad pun).

Granted, plenty of wrist/shoulder grabs I've seen from an aikido perspective treat the grab as the end-all of the attack, rather than a transitional position to manipulate, close or strike (or club or stab, if we're also factoring in the weapons paradigm)."


These are nice points, and correct. But bridging the distance to the core is the sole reason a grappler would grab your wrist. If a wrestler grabs my wrist and I start to apply a nikkyo, the wrestler will just pull his hand away, his goal is to get to my body, not the arm, the arm is simply a means "bridging the gap". However if I have a knife, and you grab my wrist to try and keep me from stabbing you, and I apply nikkyo, you cannot simply pull your hand away, if you do you will be stabbed. Aikido's methods for avoiding wrist grabs has to do with a need for uke to keep the grab, you will often times see Aikido throws where the uke wouldn't have to fall if he simply let go of the hand. When I first saw these throws I thought they were silly, as I would much rather let go of your hand then have you throw me!! but then when I realized that letting go of your hand means I'm going to get cut, it made allot more since to me as to why someone would what to hold on the a wrist for so long.

-Chris Hein

tarik
02-21-2006, 03:56 PM
Hi Chris,

Lots of people have differnt oppinions about how often fights go to the ground, in most of the fights I've been involved in, someone ended up on the ground, usually with someone else on top of them whailing away, but I believe what you say, and I'm sure a great number of fights never end up on the ground.

I suspect it is, in part, what one is used to and how one looks at fighting. The one time (in a real fight) that I ended up on the ground I realized very quickly that I didn't want to stay there because I was also being attacked with a lead pipe by the persons friend. Messy stuff, reality.

As for the kihon waza training fundamental principles, I believe that's the definition of kihon waza, but other unarmed styles train their kihon from the most common positions they will be in, in a fight, i.e. the clinch, or from a common hold (headlock, bear hug etc.), they do this to insure that their practitioners are comfortable fighting in the positions they will most certainly be in. It's strange that Aikido doesn't do the same.

Some schools do more of this than others, for sure.

These are nice points, and correct. But bridging the distance to the core is the sole reason a grappler would grab your wrist. If a wrestler grabs my wrist and I start to apply a nikkyo, the wrestler will just pull his hand away, his goal is to get to my body, not the arm, the arm is simply a means "bridging the gap". However if I have a knife, and you grab my wrist to try and keep me from stabbing you, and I apply nikkyo, you cannot simply pull your hand away, if you do you will be stabbed.

Nikkyo is too often about pain, which is a distration from the real study. I'd let go also. My training goal with a proper nikkyo is that my partner should not be ABLE to let go. If you start (to pull another thread in) from the perspective of taking your partner's balance, they should not be able to let go at all, at least in the form of Aikido I am currently trying to study.

Aikido's methods for avoiding wrist grabs has to do with a need for uke to keep the grab, you will often times see Aikido throws where the uke wouldn't have to fall if he simply let go of the hand. When I first saw these throws I thought they were silly, as I would much rather let go of your hand then have you throw me!! but then when I realized that letting go of your hand means I'm going to get cut, it made allot more since to me as to why someone would what to hold on the a wrist for so long.

If the Aikido training is such that you have a choice to let go or not be thrown, I'm not very interested in that sort of training or technique, although I confess to having indulged in it for some time while trying to figure out what the heck I was supposed to be learning.

I believe that if uke can let go once they've grabbed, than tori has already failed. Not that I can DO this very often, but this is my training goal, no matter how I am grabbed or struck.

Tarik

Meynard
02-21-2006, 04:05 PM
The emptyhand methods that lead to the development of aikido came from problems that had to be dealt with during armed confrontations. It's an art that came from the practices and methods of armed men, samurai.

If you're empty handed it would be foolish of you to try to defeat an armed attacker unless you have no other choice. The first choice is to arm yourself. Being armed is the best thing because when you really want to assault someone you'd want to do it with as much unfair advantage as possible.

The problem with aikido is most practitioners don't understand or have never trained with the armed methods of fighting to have realistic understanding of why aikido methods are the way they are.

It is a weapon based empty handed martial arts system that cannot be fully understood unless the practitioner has a true comprehension of weapon fighting.

Grabs in aikido are a matter of weapon retention and or how to prevent another from using their weapon.

Why would anyone grab someone's wrist from the back...clearly if you want to put someone down the best way is to just whack them on the head when they're not looking.

Killing somone is a no, no then and it's no, no now. How do you subdue someone who probably has a knife or two? You prevent them from being able to access their weapon.

Knowing that people will prevent you from accessing your weapon and that you also need to to prevent people from accessing their weapon a method must be developed to solve this problem.

Knowing that in a real fight there would probably be more than one person trying to keep you from getting to your weapon you must also figure out a way to minimize the time spent with each opponent.

In "serious" fight, meaning life or death, you need to access your weapon as soon as possible. If it turns serious enough where your opponents goal turns from subduing you into killing you because you're resisting and pose an imminent threat you also need to figure out a way disarm them or at least get in a range where you can prevent them from accessing their weapon while keeping yours.

If they were able to access their weapon you need to be able to bridge the gap between no contact and contact range without getting hit.

This means you've got to get close enough to grab them and the whole process goes on...

tarik
02-21-2006, 04:24 PM
The problem with aikido is most practitioners don't understand or have never trained with the armed methods of fighting to have realistic understanding of why aikido methods are the way they are.

I actually think that this is only a part of the problem with aikido training in general.


It is a weapon based empty handed martial arts system that cannot be fully understood unless the practitioner has a true comprehension of weapon fighting.

I've trained in Nisho's approach to aikido and cannot disagree at all with the history and logic of this approach to training.

However, it is not the entire story, as Aikido is, and should be, a living breathing system.

Tarik

senshincenter
02-21-2006, 05:18 PM
I think a lot of arts don't use scenario-based training - especially traditional arts that are not seeking to ingrain habit but rather attempting to address the problematic of spontaneity via the cultivation of an unfettered body/mind. I think the idea of ingraining habit has always been around, but what is new is that so very few folks are out to cultivated unfettered body/minds nowadays. As a result, it looks to many of us moderns that the only way to spontaneity then is to develop habit - making it look like if we aren't doing scenario-based training that we aren't training for real, etc. In my opinion, this is directly at odds (in many ways) with the traditionally prominent model - which tended to see ingrained habit as part of the problem and by no means a solution.

I came across this quote by karateka Kenji Ushiro - he says:

"I personally have found it best to view kata not simply as forms to be learned, but rather as "tools" for studying how to deal with critical situations, and more specifically how to keep myself out of harm's way in those situations. This is how I think about kata, and this is also how kata are viewed within the Shindo-ryu tradition. What it means is that learning and studying kata is not necessarily such a cut-and-dry process, and in fact in some ways is outside the bounds of logic and reason....

In other words, our bujutsu training is not so much about learning techniques as it is about learning how to use the techniques inherent in the kata we practice, and more importantly whether or not we have "usability" of those techniques."

I think he's speaking right to the issue at hand on how to understand things like kata-dori.

On the other point, I get the history and the origins, etc., concerning weapons and Aikido, but the logic just doesn't pan out so I think there is a lot of Aikido leftover even when one wants to talk about origins, etc.

In other words, for example, how do we go from "an art that was for armed men, wanting the supreme advantage, etc.," TO, "let me grab his wrists from the back because sneaking up and konking him is a no-no?" Or, how do we go from, "let me grab his wrist because sneaking up and konking him is a no-no," to, "let me grab his shoulders from the back, leaving his hands free to grab his weapon?" Etc.

In my opinion, the history of any martial art is much more complicated that it appears - history is rarely so cause and effect. In contrast to the view of "this came from that," I would propose that the art has many periods of emphasizing either technique or principle in its past. In my opinion, it is via this waxing and waning between the two orientation that one today comes to see both examples of direct application and examples of something that could be anything but a direct application. As a result, by the time something gets to us, even those examples of direct application that came from the past, because of how many times they themselves have waned during moments of principle being emphasized, are not all that practical and/or applicable.

That said, and this though we emphasize weapons at our dojo, I would never go so far as to say that one needs weapons to understand Aikido (empty hand) - especially in light of how some folks practice with weapons nowadays. When something is coming from the past, all mixed up, in my opinion, one better be able to grab the principle behind the things that are arriving in the present. The worst thing a person could do is to go after things in a literal manner.

Meynard
02-21-2006, 05:51 PM
The problem of how you get from basic grabbing of wrist and forearms to prevent people accessing their weapons to shoulder grabs with no apparent tactical advantage is a matter of the tendency of practitioners to come up with ways to apply technique to different scenario regardless of how ridiculous it is in reality. Meaning once the context of the origin of the art is forgotten many out of context techniques start to develop for artistic sake.

It becomes more of an exercise as to how many ways can X technique be applied. The "is it tactically sound mindset" becomes secondary and the art as a whole degrades over time as other promoters of the "art" try to be creative in expressing the classical techniques. In the end the context is lost and all you have is an art with lots of "style" with no real substance.

It looks pretty, but you can't fight with it. It's an interesting technique, but nobody would grab you like that in real life. ETC.

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 06:12 PM
real life like aikido... has an infinite number grabs/attacks/contexts, any of them may happen at some point ie someone WILL do something like that in real life at some point... we train the general to apply to the specific... and ultimately we forget all that and just do...

Michael Varin
02-21-2006, 06:33 PM
Hello,

I started a new thread called "Why these techniques?" Since this thread was the inspiration for it, I would like to invite all of you to share your ideas and maybe answers a few of my questions.

Thanks.

Michael

senshincenter
02-21-2006, 07:01 PM
The problem of how you get from basic grabbing of wrist and forearms to prevent people accessing their weapons to shoulder grabs with no apparent tactical advantage is a matter of the tendency of practitioners to come up with ways to apply technique to different scenario regardless of how ridiculous it is in reality. Meaning once the context of the origin of the art is forgotten many out of context techniques start to develop for artistic sake.

It becomes more of an exercise as to how many ways can X technique be applied. The "is it tactically sound mindset" becomes secondary and the art as a whole degrades over time as other promoters of the "art" try to be creative in expressing the classical techniques. In the end the context is lost and all you have is an art with lots of "style" with no real substance.

It looks pretty, but you can't fight with it. It's an interesting technique, but nobody would grab you like that in real life. ETC.


But this begs the question: If martial reality was the ultimate cause/origin, and if that cause/origin was thought to be addressed via the production of habit, which came via the utilization of scenario-based training, why are folks who came after the "artistic revolution" still likely to do things like shoulder grabs in their training? (For example, Osensei is filmed training in shoulder grabs - even when his art was being called Daito-ryu, etc.)

AND/OR

If scenario-based training was the origin of Aikido's forms, going back further (I am imagining), why punch like a sword stabbing and not like a puncher would punch (even in the old days)? Was the transition from sword stabbing to puncher punching already an artistic revolution in the motion - already a step away from what is practical and toward what is artistic? Was the moment the art was practiced without a weapon in hand the moment it because artistic - stopped being practical?

For me, these questions are all wrong, this whole setup is mucked up. I opt to avoid asking these questions, and thus avoid not being able to answer them, by seeing principle at work in everything Aikido has to offer.
my opinion,
dmv

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 07:29 PM
good points David... the questions are invalid... aikido is like a springboard... if you think its just a plank then you don't get the true lift from it... my reason for thinking of it as a META martail art...

ChrisHein
02-21-2006, 07:34 PM
"If scenario-based training was the origin of Aikido's forms, going back further (I am imagining), why punch like a sword stabbing and not like a puncher would punch (even in the old days)?"
-DMV

Could it be because it's not a punch, but infact a stab.....

-Chris Hein

Meynard
02-21-2006, 07:35 PM
First part...

Because it was part of the curriculum. The problem with following a curriculum with no understanding the real context as to why certain techniques had to be there is the tendency for actual practical technique to become stylized.

Stylized technique become empty forms. Much of the repertoire in most traditional martial arts have stylized or idealized technique. It's in the curriculum so it's practiced without complete understanding of the purpose, over time the meaning is lost. I'm sure Osensei understood the purpose, I'm just not sure it was imparted.

Second part...

Because a sword stabbing move is not like a boxer's punch. If you understood weapon based fighting you wouldn't have to ask this question.

Holding a long weapon with an end grip like a sword doesn't make for efficient stabs. However it makes for an efficient slash. Holding a long weapon from the middle or 3/4 grip like a staff makes for an efficient thrust, but not necessarily for efficient slashes.

Take the sword and hold it in one hand (right) and take a knife and hold it in the other (left) makes for an efficient slash and thrust movement with both weapons.

Boxers don't fight by holding their fist on top of each other as if they're holding a sword. Do you make a two grip yokomen strike? No. Do you make a two grip shomen uchi strike? No.

You need to understand the nature of the weapon.

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 08:07 PM
i just don't get you guys narrow minded insistence that it must be only weapons based and is completely unapplicable to empty hand when it is clearly meant to address both... wake up and smell the coffee... when something is whizzing toward your face whether a fist or a knife you need to move, blend, control... thats one of the things i like about aikido you do the same waza whether you or the attacker are armed or not... you just make minor adjustments instead of learning a whole new curriculum of techniques for each...

Meynard
02-21-2006, 08:14 PM
I never said it was completely unapplicable to empty hands.

You're talking not out of experience but more out the need to believe some party line.

For example.

Mr. Valadez despite his education and years of experience in teaching aikido and having a strong weapon emphasis in his school didn't understand enough about weapons usage to make an educated comment as to why sword stabs are not like boxers punches.

I'm sure he's good at what he does, but to me this shows a lack of basic knowledge.

senshincenter
02-21-2006, 08:26 PM
"If scenario-based training was the origin of Aikido's forms, going back further (I am imagining), why punch like a sword stabbing and not like a puncher would punch (even in the old days)?"
-DMV

Could it be because it's not a punch, but infact a stab.....

-Chris Hein

Well if that's the case, why not leave it with the sword in the hand - whether it be a real weapon or a training weapn? And/or - why not at least keep the range of weapons - why stand in a range that is more partial to empty-hand fighting? Etc.

Meynard
02-21-2006, 08:37 PM
David,

Are you asking because you don't know?

senshincenter
02-21-2006, 08:41 PM
First part...

Because it was part of the curriculum. The problem with following a curriculum with no understanding the real context as to why certain techniques had to be there is the tendency for actual practical technique to become stylized.

Stylized technique become empty forms. Much of the repertoire in most traditional martial arts have stylized or idealized technique. It's in the curriculum so it's practiced without complete understanding of the purpose, over time the meaning is lost. I'm sure Osensei understood the purpose, I'm just not sure it was imparted.




So are you saying that Osensei understood that kata-dori was a move away from practical training, that it was a stylized, empty form but that he did it anyways because it was part of the curriculum? If you aren't saying that, can you tell me how you are saying something different?


Second part...

Because a sword stabbing move is not like a boxer's punch. If you understood weapon based fighting you wouldn't have to ask this question.



Why - that's twice in this thread - and I'm still waiting for some video of Chris' real Aikido so I can contrast it with my fake intellectually masturbating Aikido. How about you, got some video of your weapons work so that I can contrast it with my ignorant weapons work?



Holding a long weapon with an end grip like a sword doesn't make for efficient stabs. However it makes for an efficient slash. Holding a long weapon from the middle or 3/4 grip like a staff makes for an efficient thrust, but not necessarily for efficient slashes.

Take the sword and hold it in one hand (right) and take a knife and hold it in the other (left) makes for an efficient slash and thrust movement with both weapons.

Boxers don't fight by holding their fist on top of each other as if they're holding a sword. Do you make a two grip yokomen strike? No. Do you make a two grip shomen uchi strike? No.

You need to understand the nature of the weapon.

My question was not centered on current boxing methods. My question was concerned with the way folks punched back when these arts opted to train for a tsuki without a sword in hand. I don't care how different it was from boxing of today, that punching style was certainly not like a how you stab with a sword/blade, etc. So the question remains, if these arts were about weapons, and if these arts find their practicality in scenario-based training (which is your view - not mine) why was the sword taken out of the hand? Or, why when the sword was taken out of the hand did these arts not develop a more "realistic" (i.e. scenario appropriate) punch to deal with.

My answer to this solves this issue (i.e. aikido training is principle-based, not scenario-based) - yours does not. You are either going to end up with an artistic revolution occurring way before Osensei - making him practice stylized empty techniques for the sake of curriculum (as you did above) - or you are going to have to say that folks did in fact punch like this (i.e. mune tsuki) - which was hardly true. You can't say that no artistic revolution occurred prior to Osensei at the same time that you are saying empty-hand mune-tsuki is scenario-based training with a sword.

Meynard
02-21-2006, 08:54 PM
Nope. Ueshiba understood the context of the technique and did it as part of the curriculum he learned, but nobody else seemed to.

I don't need to show you a video of my weapons work. I can come there and show it to you personally.

Sorry, I never used the words scenario based training. That's not a term I used. You did. I never said that aikido was scenario based, you did.

You talk about principle as if you understand it and yet you don't know why the aikido punch is a silly looking tsuki. Who's not understanding principles and whose stuck on scenario based ideas? You are because you can't even put into context the principles of blade work and how it translates into emptyhands.

senshincenter
02-21-2006, 09:19 PM
I'm asking these questions because you guys are not. This is not my line of reasoning and/or my take on Aikido or Aikido training. This is the unthought portion of your own position.

Please understand that I am playing devil's advocate here regarding the view that is shared between you and Chris. My view is counter this view - my view is that training is more principle-based than scenario-based.

When you said: "Grabs in aikido are a matter of weapon retention and or how to prevent another from using their weapon. " - you basically repeated Chris' position. In my understanding of that position and of your statement, you are not saying that the grabs are about principle training, you are saying that they are about a literal attack - which is understandable as a scenario-based training. If you are not saying this, if you never said this, or if you aren't saying this now, then we are not in disagreement. However, if you are, then I think the questions I'm asking need to be answered for your position to continue making sense.

In my understanding of Aikido, I understand why mune-tsuki looks like it does (i.e. today, it's about a thrusting energy/yesterday it was about thrusting energy with a sword), but in a training curriculum where you say silly little grabs should be understood as practical/literal attacks, these other questions about kata-dori, mune-tsuki, etc., come up. As I understand your answer, you dismiss things like kata-dori as being stylized empty curriculum and that Osensei did them but knew he was doing stylized empty forms, etc. My opinion is that Osensei, and countless others like him, knew why such training was important - because of the principles such training cultivated. If you are saying this, then again, we agree. If not I feel your position must consider more than you are offering.

When training is thought to be literal applications, what I am calling scenario-based training, one has a lot of explaining to do in an art like Aikido or in any traditional Japanese martial art (starting with single man forms, to suwari-waza, to tai-no-henko, etc.). However, if one leaves training principle-oriented, these things make sense in total and one does not have to make such arbitrary allowances that show Osensei training in something "less than real" but doing so knowingly, etc., because it was curriculum.

Most importantly, if you mean to visit in good faith - you, and all, are always welcome at our dojo. But if you mean to threaten me or intimidate me, please know that I do not come on these forums to get in either fake or real fights with folks. That is utter nonsense to me. If continuing this discussion is only going to spark you into anger, rage, and/or violence, we can stop talking here and now. I prefer to both agree and disagree in peace. If you can't do that, if that is for some reason beyond you, there's no point in having our ideas come into contact with each other. Right? You and I do not know each other, and we can very easily continue not knowing each other. If that is the only way for us to maintain peace in our lives, then I suggest we continue to not know each other.

This is not a contest for me and it should not be one for you.

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 09:25 PM
you guys just don't get it... you keep parroting context when you clearly have no idea of any context that does not feature weapons, and blades... i agree that these are valid contexts in aikido, but not the only ones... you are the one spouting a party line... i am quite the opposite... i will be the first to call bullsh*t on some flowery, fancy, never gonna ever work technique... if you have doubts about aikido and its effectiveness or applicability or context then why do you bother training, couldn't you find something better? having cross trained in arnis and some modern forms of knife fighting i find your lack of insight troubling... were your teachers not good, or explaining poorly, or are you poor students... you have to do the research for yourself... honestly... making broad and inaccurate statements about what aikido is and is not shows your pitiful understanding of this rich art... put up a video or look at Davids videos... unfortunately i do not have any, but seeing what you call aikido would be amusing... aikido must by its very definition and the principle of takemusu aiki MUST be equally armed and unarmed for uke and nage, it must also be eqally artistic/realistic and physical/spiritual... if you lose any of these then you lose aikido and it becomes a dead form... with very little value... i think it does have all these and is valid and living...

Warriors! Rally round the universal true techniques, shine brightly and reveal Aikido to the world!

Over and over, train in the techniques with all your heart. Use the One to strike the Many: This is the Path of a real practitioner.

Sincerity! Cultivate yourself sincerely and thus realize the profound truth that the manifest and hidden are one.
Osensei

Leon Aman
02-21-2006, 10:10 PM
Hi

A while ago I showed my Father Ushiro ryokatadori Kotegashi. Afterwards he claimed that nobody would ever bother to grab you in such a way as Ushiro ryokatadori. I thought about it abit and decided to ask here: Just why exactly would grab you from behind by the shoulders or wrists? (e.g Ushiro Tekubitori).

I've seen more realistic grabs such as Kakaedori online, but for some reason my dojo doesn't practise them. (Atleast not during the duration I've spent there)

Thanks

I agree with some people here that such attack maybe unrealistically in actual situation , but it could and probably happen, so it is better to practice it anyway. :)

leon

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 10:42 PM
there is no such thing as an unrealistic attack... anything can and usually will happen eventually... but you also learn other things by practicing this, such as balance, timing, blending etc...

Meynard
02-21-2006, 10:53 PM
First of all I don't think you're understanding what I'm telling you and are choosing to understand it as you would like and putting meanings and vocabulary that were not there. If you're indeed playing devil's advocate then I'd say it's just a waste of time talking to you about these things.

If you're seeking knowledge and really want to understand these things then by all means contact me and we can set up a private lesson.

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 11:00 PM
i don't think YOU understand what you are saying, and if you mean me contacting you for a private lesson... since you don't mention where or how long you have studied... i will stick with my sensei who has over 50 years of experience and studied with Osensei... but thanks anyway...

Meynard
02-21-2006, 11:14 PM
I wasn't talking to you Edwin, but you're welcome too.

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 11:50 PM
sorry, but i'm east coast... where do you train? got a website? i highly recommend you check out David Valadez website... you may be suprised at what you see... i thought i was the only "crazy lets see what this is all about aikidoka", it really inspired me when i saw his videos... he is one of the real deals in my book...

Meynard
02-22-2006, 12:21 AM
I don't have a website or a school.

senshincenter
02-22-2006, 01:32 AM
Well I think anyone should be able to express an opinion and be able to participate in a discussion regardless of who or what they are - but if one party does not want to, that should be fine too. Perhaps you are right Meynard - you are right. We should let this one go. Thanks for the offer - either way.

Take care,
dmv

Ron Tisdale
02-22-2006, 10:56 AM
Interesting discussion. But I think there are several issues at work in aikido, which muddies the water considerably. Let's see if I understand the issues:

Aikdo is weapons based, that's why there are waza that don't make sense in a contemporary context.

Aikido is principle based, and weapons based to some extent, that's why there are waza that don't make sense in a contemporary context.

Aikido is an historical artifact, that's why there are waza that don't make sense in a contemporary context.

Probably all of these are true to some extent, so the real question is what should our focus be?

There is something else to add in to the mix, though it might be under David's principle theory (which I happen to like quite a bit). The more I train in aikido, the more I come to believe that the waza are methods in which to train particular body skills. Without those body skills, we have a collection of historical artifacts (kata, waza, etc), we have a collection of principles (how do we know for sure they aren't also historical artifacts?). I'm still learning about these body skills / methods of moving / aiki, but I am beginning to think that without them, aikido has some serious contextual issues today. That said, I have too many data points from people I know personally and others as well to dismiss the empty hand waza of aikido as not applying at all in today's world.

One point about thrust punching vs boxers punching. It is fairly well known that the method of striking even in say, okinawan arts was fairly new and innovative in japanese martial arts. So it really is no surprise that there is not a lot of that style of striking in aikido. That said, students of Ueshiba like Koroiwa Sensei seemed to have little trouble relating boxing movements to aikido.

Best,
Ron (Hi Maynard, are you still training in Japanese arts? I thought you had moved to a MMA / BJJ training environment?)

PS I'm a little surprised at the statements questioning another person's knowledge and experience...

Meynard
02-22-2006, 11:16 AM
Hey Ron, It's just frustrating to discuss these things online. It's such a waste of time typing things out.

I'm still doing the mma/bjj thing. It's more of a lab to test my knowledge and ability. It serves its purpose. I still practice my ken jutsu and aiki ju jutsu, but nowadays it has a considerably different flavor. I still see what I do as aiki bugei as I learned it. It's just that my understanding and expression of it reflects the experiences I gained in my own version of musha shugyo.

Ron Tisdale
02-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Sounds good. I think you will add some interesting views to the mix here. Please excuse my forwardness...but perhaps avoiding being too dogmatic might ease the transition... ;) Good to know you are well and still training.

Best,
Ron

Meynard
02-22-2006, 11:27 AM
Ron,

You should save that comment to Edwin.

I'm just here for a spot and I just find it amusing to talk to aikido people again.

ChrisHein
02-22-2006, 11:58 AM
I don't think anyone should rule out the possibility of using Aikido as an empty handed system, maybe some truly astute individual will come around and have amazing unarmed abilities using only the techniques of Aikido, some say Ueshiba was such a man, I don't know I wasn't around then.

I do however think that Aikido is a true weapons system, came from, and was developed for weapons use. Using it to learn other means of fighting is not efficient, or practical. You could gain over twice the unarmed ability in under half the time with an unarmed system (wrestling styles, boxing styles). Does this mean Aikido is not a practical martial art? NO, I believe if any of the current MMA champs came with all their unarmed skill up against a capable armed Aikidoka they would be in for some trouble. Further I believe if they (an MMA fighter) were also armed they would be defeated by and armed man trained in a armed system. Arming yourself is the superior way to deal with physical conflict, that's why soldiers arm themselves, and learning a way to use a weapon (the superior means of fighting) you are learning the most practical skills around. In truth Aikido is probably a more practical means a self defense then anyone ever thought.....

-Chris Hein

roosvelt
02-22-2006, 12:47 PM
:

You talk about principle as if you understand it and yet you don't know why the aikido punch is a silly looking tsuki. Who's not understanding principles and whose stuck on scenario based ideas? You are because you can't even put into context the principles of blade work and how it translates into emptyhands.



I'm all ears.

Instead trying to tell David that he didn't understand, why don't you state your understanding? I appreciated David's effort and time to put his thoughts into words for us to take a stab ut. I'm sure I can learn something as well if you can spare some time to write up your understand to share your knowledge.

Regards

Meynard
02-22-2006, 12:59 PM
Sorry, but that information is for my students and friends not demanding strangers.

roosvelt
02-22-2006, 01:15 PM
Sorry, but that information is for my students and friends not demanding strangers.

Then why did you bother to tell David that he didn't understand a thing when he freely share his knowledge? To save us the innocent from misinformation? You were just too kind and generous.

Regards

Meynard
02-22-2006, 01:54 PM
David can freely share his knowledge that doesn't mean I have to do the same.

Besides he is not saying something that's worth anything to me even if you find them to be gold nuggets.

I've already shared my knowledge. Chris Hein shared his knowledge. It's been met with disdain and insults. It's not my problem that you guys don't know much. It's not my problem that those who you hold in high esteem don't know much.

I'm not about disclose the technical syllabus of what I teach just because you think you can demand it from me. I don't owe you are anyone in this forum anything.

You're lucky to get this much from me. I know those who don't know much try to fish for knowledge and later pawn it off as their own. Sorry, you've got to work at getting to know what I know.

I suffered for my art why don't you.

Shut up and train.

Ron Tisdale
02-22-2006, 02:15 PM
Yousa. That went right down the tube.

:(
R

roosvelt
02-22-2006, 02:18 PM
David can freely share his knowledge that doesn't mean I have to do the same.

Besides he is not saying something that's worth anything to me even if you find them to be gold nuggets.

I've already shared my knowledge. Chris Hein shared his knowledge. It's been met with disdain and insults. It's not my problem that you guys don't know much. It's not my problem that those who you hold in high esteem don't know much.

I'm not about disclose the technical syllabus of what I teach just because you think you can demand it from me. I don't owe you are anyone in this forum anything.

You're lucky to get this much from me. I know those who don't know much try to fish for knowledge and later pawn it off as their own. Sorry, you've got to work at getting to know what I know.

I suffered for my art why don't you.



Your adorable personality just shines through every single line you wrote. I hope you suffer no more soon.

Regards

tarik
02-22-2006, 02:21 PM
Meynard,

You're posts are startlingly irate over very little. Perhaps not intended?

I've already shared my knowledge. Chris Hein shared his knowledge. It's been met with disdain and insults.

Speaking as someone who generally agrees with your description of Aikido as a weapons based system, some of the obvious disdain I've read is in your posts and Chris' posts, intended or not (as Chris commented he came across more strongly than he intended).

It's not my problem that you guys don't know much. It's not my problem that those who you hold in high esteem don't know much.

Case in point.

You're lucky to get this much from me.

Lucky?

I suffered for my art why don't you.

You almost moved me to further sarcasm. I'll just leave that to your imagination.

Shut up and train.

I strongly agree with this statement. It's the most productive way to learn most of the answers that are sought on this budo forums. A However, interaction and exchange of ideas is also quite meaningful and while there are certainly a plethora of people who post here who don't or barely train, there are a large number of people who also put in a lot of time.

Regards,

Tarik

Ron Tisdale
02-22-2006, 02:24 PM
Nice post Tarik.

Best,
Ron

Meynard
02-22-2006, 02:30 PM
I don't like people who demand as if I owe them something.

roosvelt
02-22-2006, 02:59 PM
It's my fault too. I had too high of expectation from someone who claimed "I've trained in aikido, aiki jujutsu, kenjutsu, tanto jutsu, baguazhang, xingyi, yiquan, taijiquan, bjj, kali, silat, muaythai, krabi krabong and western boxing."

Since you're familiar with "baguazhang, xingyi, yiquan, taijiquan", you think Aikido is just a weapon training system, not a ki or internal art form? Is that your point?

senshincenter
02-22-2006, 04:19 PM
Why don't we all just try and move forward with the topic or at least just opt to end the discussion over who was insulting and/or insulted. It seems to be taking over the thread when it was really nothing more than a difference of opinion - something so small, as Tarik pointed out. Nothing here was ever a big deal, so maybe we'd all be better off if we stop trying to make things into one??? I think it would be a lot easier, take less effort on everyone's part, to just let things go by - like the little things they are/were. :-)

For me, not everyone's Aikido has to be the same thing. For me, this has to remain a valid point of view, even when contrasting opinions are coming into contact with each other. In the end, though we are in the midst of discussion, we should realize that we do not all have to be doing the same thing. We should be comfortable with our own approach, not needing others to do what we do, think what we think, and/or speak how we speak. I'm fine sharing my ideas with others, but I would never want anyone to think that I'm teaching them by doing so. For me, a lot more goes into teaching than just sharing some ideas. In this forum, if my ideas ever come to make some reflect and/or think a bit differently, for me, that is all them - it's all about how they went on to think about and practice their Aikido. It has nothing to do with me at all.

If for some reason, someone in this thread felt I was out to be anyone's teacher and/or to make their Aikido look like mine, and/to uphold my Aikido as the only legitimate Aikido - let me say here that none of these things were ever of my intention. I will say here that I am "sensei" only to my students - that I am not sensei to anyone on these boards (which is the main reason why I ask folks here to always call me "Dave"); that I appreciate that everyone's Aikido looks different (that I don't believe in "Aikido" only "Aikidos"); and that my Aikido is definitely open to claims of being illegitimate, depending upon a given point of view.

All can be good if we but let it - my opinion.

Thanks for letting me opine one more time,
dmv

tarik
02-22-2006, 05:57 PM
In the spirit of moving forward..

What I find interesting about grabs in Aikido is not how realistic or unrealistic they are, but how I can possibly turn them into a connection to my partner wherein they cannot let go.

I certainly have spent a lot of time in my training exploring how nikyo comes from uke attempting to prevent this sword draw, and yonkyo is that sword takeway, and so forth, even using 'swords' and certainly find it a fascinating study.

I have also spent a lot of time trying to turn the various grabs into 'real' attacks, pushes or pulls that model various kinds of scenarios.

My personal conclusions are that, while it is important to train and experiment in these ways, it is most important that the attacks legitimately disturb tori/nage/shite's center in some fashion, and that tori/nage/shite should be trying to find ways to alter their physical relationship to uke such that uke cannot let go of tori/nage/shite without falling down or otherwise being exposed to more danger.

In the end, if you are achieving this type of training relationship, it doesn't much matter if the grab is realistic or not, or an unexpected variation or not, because the principles being practiced come out in the infinite variations of actual grabs, pushing, pulling, or even simply crushing.

Just my current thoughts. Ask me again in a few years and they may well be different. Or not.

Regards,

Tarik

ChrisHein
02-22-2006, 07:00 PM
Tarik,
I think the point you are making about controlling someone else's center through the grab/technique is a great point. In unarmed fighting methods the quickest way to someone's center is to directly contact the center (grabbing or striking the core) however when you have to worry about your opponent stabbing or cutting you, you must control their center through the armed hand you are controlling (because not controlling the armed hand will get you yourself cut or stabbed.).

-Chris Hein

Mark Freeman
02-22-2006, 07:24 PM
I'm just here for a spot and I just find it amusing to talk to aikido people again.
Like a superior cat playing with dumb mice kind of amusing??
You're lucky to get this much from me.
I wouln't go that far.....
It's not my problem that you guys don't know much.
Yes, definitely the cat and mouse type of amusing :crazy:

Let us know when you've finished toying with us just in case we are too dumb to notice for ourselves. :rolleyes:

Mark Freeman
02-22-2006, 07:31 PM
Whoops, sorry I posted the above reply before turning the page and realising you guys had moved on... :sorry:

Leon Aman
02-23-2006, 01:20 AM
there is no such thing as an unrealistic attack... anything can and usually will happen eventually... but you also learn other things by practicing this, such as balance, timing, blending etc...

Edwin- when I stated "unrealistic attack" I do not intend this word equating to " cannot or will not to happen" but I merely relate it to mean "unusual attack". Unusual because out of many attacks from behind where you can simply punch or kick, why do we choose to grab both wrist from behind (ushirou ryokatouri), where there are lots of possibilities of counter attack.

leon

Roman Kremianski
02-23-2006, 06:41 AM
To be honest, the "Dog brothers" just looks like guys in their backyard wailing at each other with small sticks.

Maybe it's just me...

tarik
02-23-2006, 12:23 PM
Tarik,
I think the point you are making about controlling someone else's center through the grab/technique is a great point. In unarmed fighting methods the quickest way to someone's center is to directly contact the center (grabbing or striking the core) however when you have to worry about your opponent stabbing or cutting you, you must control their center through the armed hand you are controlling (because not controlling the armed hand will get you yourself cut or stabbed.).

In general, I agree.. however, and I'm not saying I can do it, I have seen control over center to such a degree that it is immaterial how you are connected, merely that you are unavailable (out of reach) of the weapon.

That would not be my choice, but I've seen it done. In general terms, I don't think the average aikidoka would be very pleased at their abilitiy to handle a truly skilled knife fighter, but for the average idiot who fancies themselves a knife fighter but doesn't really train it in a formal way, they should do ok.

Tarik

Ron Tisdale
02-23-2006, 12:46 PM
I don't think the average [insert anyone alive that is unarmed] would be very pleased at their abilitiy to handle a truly skilled knife fighter...

Best,
Ron

tarik
02-23-2006, 12:54 PM
I don't think the average [insert anyone alive that is unarmed] would be very pleased at their abilitiy to handle a truly skilled knife fighter...


Yeah, those guys are SCARY.

I remember the first time I worked in a class on knife skills and really experienced how vulnerable we are. Even with dull aluminum blanks, my blood still runs cold at all the memory and it doesn't feel much better that it took me very little training time to get similar results against my partner. :freaky:

It's a good experience though.. and should be done more often, perhaps.