PDA

View Full Version : Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


AikiWeb System
02-12-2006, 01:30 AM
AikiWeb Poll for the week of February 12, 2006:

For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?

I don't do aikido
We don't do tenchinage
I don't know tenchinage
Forward fall/roll
Back fall/roll


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=311).

Mark Gibbons
02-12-2006, 01:50 AM
I voted for back fall but, I personally will do a forward roll depending on how tired my knees are. The back fall takes up less room on a crowded mat and is easier to teach to beginners.

Mark

xuzen
02-12-2006, 03:34 AM
I voted for back fall (koho ukemi). I was never taught any other fall of this technique other than koho ukemi.

Just out of curiosity... how does one do mae ukemi for this throw? I am baffled.

<Boon scratches head in confusion>

Jerry Miller
02-12-2006, 04:25 AM
Aren't we all confused sometimes Boon? :D

Mark Uttech
02-12-2006, 05:45 AM
wow! that was the easiest poll yet! The back fall or the forward roll on this technique really put your ego on the line!

seank
02-12-2006, 06:30 AM
Just out of curiosity... how does one do mae ukemi for this throw? I am baffled.


Not sure how everyone else does it but our version of mae ukemi from tenchinage is to look over the shoulder you intend to roll over and turn your body with the throw... a lot of times its neater, but it does take commitment to the roll and a bit more experience.

Michael Meister
02-12-2006, 07:03 AM
The question is, what do you consider a basic tenchi nage. At the beginning I practised tenchi nage with ushiro ukemi, but to allow uke to do this, you have to open the technique befor the throw. With more experienced ukes its mae ukemi, or a forward breakfall.
Basically we refer to this ukemi as a forward-backward roll.

Amelia Smith
02-12-2006, 09:39 AM
Backfall or breakfall. When someone forward rolls out of it, I feel like they're cheating out of the technique, although I guess the breakfall is more of a forward breakfall than a backward one.

aikidoc
02-12-2006, 10:12 AM
Whatever is safe.

j0nharris
02-12-2006, 12:25 PM
We see a majority of backfalls in our dojo from the kihon type throw. What is interesting, though, is how many newer students ask if their fall should begin/use their inside leg or their outside leg... .
I find that I will often pivot over the outside leg at nominal speed, but if the throw is coming hard & fast I will usually pivot over the right leg, no matter which side the technique is on. sometimes resulting in nage getting a nice whack on the instep if they're not out of the way when I hit the mat - :blush: - for which I always apologize.
I encourage new students to try back/side falls over each leg to see which side feels more natural to them.
Like many things on the mat, everyone is a little different as to what will work best for their bodies.

Sonja2012
02-12-2006, 12:28 PM
Whatever you are being thrown into?!

Just the other day I attended a seminar in which the teacher threw uke tenchinage. Uke took a forward roll out of it. Teacher says: "No, don´t do that, take a backwards roll!" He tries again and uke - again - takes a forward roll. He clearly had no other option! The teacher told him off again and I was thinking how stupid that was. Shouldn´t ukemi be something one takes in order to be safe and shouldn´t it be a natural reaction to uke´s balance being broken? Therefore I feel that the type of fall I take is not so much my own choice. Of course if the technique is done softly or done by someone with less experience then I have more choice, and I have seen and done both forward and backwards rolls off it. The same would count for any other technique, I should think.

Edwin Neal
02-12-2006, 12:39 PM
if uke can take a forward roll it indicates IMHO that nage is allowing it and thus not completely controlling uke throughout the entire technique... if nage controls the head properly during this throw, then nage should not be able to turn their head for the forward roll...

Amelia Smith
02-12-2006, 02:04 PM
True, uke should not be able to take a forward roll if tenchinage is being done properly, but if uke lets go with the lower hand early on and edges away (not good ukemi IMO), they can usually roll out. Some ukes will go to great lengths to take whatever kind of fall they have in mind before the actual throw.

Karen Wolek
02-12-2006, 02:59 PM
I've taken backfalls, backrolls, forward rolls, and breakfalls from tenchinage. I don't think any one is more appropriate than the others. I just do whatever feels right at the moment.

Backfalls are usually best, because they are safer on a crowded mat.

seank
02-12-2006, 03:24 PM
True, uke should not be able to take a forward roll if tenchinage is being done properly, but if uke lets go with the lower hand early on and edges away (not good ukemi IMO), they can usually roll out.

What about in the instance that nage takes the leading hand very low to the mat, and further behind ukes body than the other hand; in naturally twists uke and puts them very close body-wise to a forward roll.

Not a setup per se, but its not ncessarily poor technique on behalf of nage either...

Don_Modesto
02-12-2006, 03:31 PM
I voted for back fall but, I personally will do a forward roll depending on how tired my knees are. The back fall takes up less room on a crowded mat and is easier to teach to beginners.
Yes, me, too.

But it's not always a matter of choice. Well, done, TN can launch you. With beginners, I do the back roll because they're still fretting over where the foot goes and I wait for their technique to catch up with my attack. More advance players just take your momentum and you fly.

sullivanw
02-12-2006, 04:28 PM
Hi all,

I voted for a back fall because that's what I have been shown, and the majority of ukemi for tenchi nage (basic) at my dojo is just that. However, as I have been learning to keep a better connection I have been tending toward a forward roll or breakfall on tenchinage ura...
I love this stuff... there's always more to learn or another perspective to appreciate!

-Will

Peter Goldsbury
02-12-2006, 07:32 PM
I voted for back fall (koho ukemi). I was never taught any other fall of this technique other than koho ukemi.

Just out of curiosity... how does one do mae ukemi for this throw? I am baffled.

<Boon scratches head in confusion>

I think this has been discussed before in ukemi threads, for I remember explaining somewhere how I do a 'forward' roll backwards and without turning the head. This is not the same as a 'clothesline' ukemi, by the way.

Best regards,

Don
02-12-2006, 07:40 PM
Beginers: universally take backfalls, since the throw takes them backwards, they don't conceive of moving their bodies except to step backwards out of the throw, and its done slowly with them.

Advanced players: whatever is there and is safe. There is a way to do a roll out of this that does not involve turning into the earth hand. Uke simply (ha ha) follows the earth hand downward. He influences his balance break to be toward the earth hand, but doesn't turn into it. He simply (ha ha) executes a forward roll from a backward position. Its really fun to do and very pretty at demos. It also is necessary if someone throws you quickly and with good connection. Its all you really have time to do unless you want to get your head bonked.

xuzen
02-12-2006, 10:52 PM
I think this has been discussed before in ukemi threads, for I remember explaining somewhere how I do a 'forward' roll backwards and without turning the head. This is not the same as a 'clothesline' ukemi, by the way.

Best regards,

Since the thread is about the basic tenchi-nage, please allow me to revisit this basic technique.

Assuming this is from both hand grab (ryote mochi tenchi-nage). Simultaneously move one hand 45 degree outwards, breaking the balance at the knee of uke. The other hand is raised upwards to strike the face of uke. Please note your wrist is resting on top of the uke's wrist (uke's wrist should be shielding his face from your strike). This also prevent uke's holding arm from letting go. This raised arm is also intended as a strike to further cause kuzushi.

A good outcome, you should get uke resting his weight entirely on one leg and the other leg is at tip toe. At this moment in time, uke is probably arched backwards, with his head behind his center of gravity. The proceed with tsugi ashi (sliding) movement at a 45 degree angle across his arched back. Please note, as you slide, your hip is connected to the hip of uke.

Using the power of your tsugi ashi movement plus hip power throw uke. For the Yoshinkan people, the movement is similar to our Shumatsu dosa ichi (1) movement.

I hope my description is vivid enough for all readers to form a mental picture. My question is such that with uke broken balance this way, I just cannot fathom any other method of ukemi other than back fall.

Yours truly,
Boon.

PeterR
02-13-2006, 01:27 AM
I share Boon's difficulty.

After the initial two handed kuzushi there is a definite attacking the body component to the throw. Very little room for uke to turn and throw themselves into any sort of forward role at least during the contact phase.

Pretty hard to follow the earth hand down when there is a body inconveniently in the way.

grondahl
02-13-2006, 02:01 AM
backfall, not backroll. More "breakfall-like"

For some of the ki no nagare versions a forward breakfall comes quite naturally though.

PeterR
02-13-2006, 04:12 AM
Backroll has its problems too. Tori is moving forward quite rapidly and will pretty much be on top of you the whole time. A backroll puts you in a much weaker position for a good chunk of time. Best have a pair of legs between you and nage than an exposed back.

Peter Goldsbury
02-13-2006, 04:44 AM
Reading Boon's post and Peter Rehse's post leads me to wonder whether Yoshinkan or Shodokan teach the 'backward' mae-ukemi. I learned it from Minoru Kanetsuka Sensei, who has a Yoshinkan background, before I came to Japan.

For Iwama people, the ukemi I have in mind used to be done brilliantly by Bruce Klickstein and I think it is still done brilliantly by Pat Hendricks. In one of Saito Sensei's last appearances at the All-Japan demonstration in May, Pat was Saito Sensei's uchi-tachi and did precisely the ukemi I am thinking of, while holding a bokken with both hands. (NB. As with the 'clothesline' ukemi, the secret is in the feet!).

Best wishes,

PeterR
02-13-2006, 05:09 AM
Hi Peter;

Several of our kata require a backward mae ukemi. Within the junanahon sumiotoshi comes to mind; withing the koryu goshin no kata there is a tachi dori tenkai kotegaishi (shihonage) which requires it. I think Yoshinkan's kihon shihonage requires it. Of course I could be misunderstanding what you are referring to but my question seems to revolve more around how tenchi-nage is performed rather than the ukemi itself.

Ilja Leonard Pfeijffer
02-13-2006, 06:17 AM
... I just cannot fathom any other method of ukemi other than back fall.

I don't know if this helps, but I always believe that there is not that much difference with sumi otoshi. Being thrown with tenchi nage, one can hold on to the "earth" hand and take a forward breakfall just as one could do with e.g. katate dori sumi otoshi, holding on to the hand that was grapped in the initial attack, the only difference being that nage's second arm happens to be in a different place.

Peter Goldsbury
02-13-2006, 06:18 AM
Hi Peter;

Several of our kata require a backward mae ukemi. Within the junanahon sumiotoshi comes to mind; withing the koryu goshin no kata there is a tachi dori tenkai kotegaishi (shihonage) which requires it. I think Yoshinkan's kihon shihonage requires it. Of course I could be misunderstanding what you are referring to but my question seems to revolve more around how tenchi-nage is performed rather than the ukemi itself.

Hello Peter,

Understood (and sumi-otoshi was a waza I also thought of), but the main issue of this poll, as I understand it, is the ukemi required, not how basic tenchi-nage is performed.

Of course, if the issue is really how basic tenchi-nage is (should be) performed, then I have an opinion. However, given that we all know how basic (understood as kihon in Japanese, with all the implications) tenchi-nage should be performed, I think that an 'ushiro' mae ukemi is possible.

Perhaps we should research this topic further with Bryan Bateman when I come in April.

Best,

NagaBaba
02-13-2006, 07:16 AM
Hello Peter,

Understood (and sumi-otoshi was a waza I also thought of), but the main issue of this poll, as I understand it, is the ukemi required, not how basic tenchi-nage is performed.

Of course, if the issue is really how basic tenchi-nage is (should be) performed, then I have an opinion. However, given that we all know how basic (understood as kihon in Japanese, with all the implications) tenchi-nage should be performed, I think that an 'ushiro' mae ukemi is possible.

Perhaps we should research this topic further with Bryan Bateman when I come in April.

Best,
If uke can take 'ushiro' mae ukemi that means tori opened his technique to let him do it. That is all right at very basic level, when one learns how to receive technique.
But regular receiving of tenchi nage is completly diffeent. This situation happens because tori physically blocks uke's hips so uke can't do ushiro ukemi nor ushiro mae ukemi. Only thing he can do is high flying breakfall "around" tori's hip.
If tori don't block uke's hips, uke can escape or can counter very easy.

Peter Goldsbury
02-13-2006, 08:20 AM
Only thing he can do is high flying breakfall "around" tori's hip.

Hello Szczepan,

Were you training when Saito Sensei taught a summer school in New England Aikikai, back in 1981? I kept a notebook of the techniques taught in this seminar and tenchi-nage was also practised. The ukemi, usually done by Mr Klickstein, was as I have described.

The ukemi I am thinking of was also done from kokyu-nage and from shiho-nage (the version where the focus is on the elbow), which also seems to match your description.

As for tenchi-nage, I think the issue partly hangs on the notion of 'basic'. Does it mean the technique you learn first, or the technique that is one of the techniques that is central to the aikido repertoire? To see what I mean, consider what is the best technique fron 'basic' irimi-nage'.

Best wishes,

Dan Herak
02-13-2006, 11:19 AM
I guess I am in the minority as I voted for the forward fall. Though the poll did not distinguish between the two, I prefer the forward fall to the forward roll, which I think is a bit confusing.

As for those questions as to how it is done, the answer is to hold tightly onto the earth hand and use it as the point over which uke flips himself (remember that ukemi is not something done to you, it is something you do). I agree with some posters that the backfall would be more appropriate for an advanced tenchinage in which tori's hip is used prominently. However, the question refers to a basic tenchinage. And I interpret "basic" in terms of tori's form, not necessarily the skill with which it is executed.

PeterR
02-13-2006, 06:35 PM
Perhaps we should research this topic further with Bryan Bateman when I come in April.
I referred to that in my post before I edited it so as not to put you on the spot. As the April meet now stands we will have a Yoshinkan instructor come in from Tokyo and I asked a higher level Shodokan instructor than myself to take a portion. It will be a great opportunity (if all works out) to look at that very question among other things.

Cheers

nathansnow
02-13-2006, 09:28 PM
Has anyone given thought to the technique not only being done irimi style, but also with a tenkan turn? With a forcefull, pushing uke, you can perform tenchinage while you tenkan. This will almost always result in uke taking a front roll or break fall.

siwilson
02-13-2006, 11:17 PM
Has anyone given thought to the technique not only being done irimi style, but also with a tenkan turn? With a forcefull, pushing uke, you can perform tenchinage while you tenkan. This will almost always result in uke taking a front roll or break fall.

Nathan,

You stole my thunder! :)

My first line was going to be Tenchi Nage Ichi OR Ni?

In Yoshinkan the Ichi technique in Kihon Waza (Basic Techniques) - Ryote Mochi Tenchi Nage Ichi, is how Boon described, and done slowly, yes, Koho Ukemi (backward sit down style breakfall) is the result. However done by a high level instructor, such as the fantastic Garry Masters Sensei, you don't do your Ukemi, it just happens! Guess what, it is usually neither back or forwards, but a side flip!!!!!

As for Sumi Otoshi, mentioned above - Joe Thambu Sensei did Sumi Otoshi on me as I stood in Kamae in the Shudokan Hombu in Seremban, Malaysia, without warning (It was on the most intense course I have ever done), and I side flipped!

What I am trying to say is, there is no one answer. If I did it (Ichi), I guess my Uke would do Koho Ukemi (back drop). Masters Sensei's Uke would probably do Zempo Ukemi!

Ni however - Uke pushes, Sh'te Tenkans and performs Tenchi Nage - Ukemi takes Zempo Ukemi - forward roll!

My answer to the poll is - I did not tick a box as the answer is not there - it depends on Sh'te (Tori/Nage) and Uke! Sh'te will (should) apply the technique to Uke's ability and Uke will fall as the technique makes or lets them.

Peter and Peter - sounds like you guys have an excellent training session coming up! I am officially jealous!

:)

grondahl
02-14-2006, 01:41 AM
Has anyone given thought to the technique not only being done irimi style, but also with a tenkan turn? With a forcefull, pushing uke, you can perform tenchinage while you tenkan. This will almost always result in uke taking a front roll or break fall.

This is one of the ki no nagare versions I mentioned earlier. I have also practiced a variant where tori steps back, little of the line to "draw out ukes balance" and then re-enters strongly with tenchinage. That version can also lead pretty easy into a high fall, mae ukemi or "ushiro mae ukemi" depending on how it´s done.

ian
02-14-2006, 09:18 AM
I wrote backward, because if it is irimi and it is done fast and with correct timing there is no time for uke to turn himself. However, if it is pretty static (or if uke is spinning more on their axis e.g. due to a redirection or a tenkan movement) a forward roll is more likely. e.g. if irimi-nage is being executed, but uke pushes forward towards nage (like a shoulder barge), and nage turns tenkan to allow a tenchi-nage to occur.

siwilson
02-14-2006, 12:29 PM
I wrote backward, because if it is irimi and it is done fast and with correct timing there is no time for uke to turn himself. However, if it is pretty static (or if uke is spinning more on their axis e.g. due to a redirection or a tenkan movement) a forward roll is more likely. e.g. if irimi-nage is being executed, but uke pushes forward towards nage (like a shoulder barge), and nage turns tenkan to allow a tenchi-nage to occur.

Actually, if the technique is done fast and correct you would flip over instead of taking a back drop (Koho Ukemi). The reason is your balance is broken so that your center of gravity cannot fall fast enough. Tenchi Nage attacks the body above the center of gravity, but not down. Your center of gravity cannot accelerate towards the tatami at move than 9.82 m/s/s with your feet staying on the mat, but Sh'te/Tori/Nage can cause the upper body to accelerate more. Hence Uke turns over!

Physics is great! Actually all Aikido is Physics. Long live Physics and realise Ki does not exist! :)

siwilson
02-14-2006, 12:31 PM
Hmmm, the flip [sic] side is you go backward and your legs fly up in the air and you land on your head!

:D

Ron Tisdale
02-14-2006, 01:43 PM
I just read this thread today...interesting. In my experience, either a back fall or a forward roll, or a breakfall could be done. One experience from my journal:

Had one really perfect tenshinage during randori…uke did this wonderfull high flying ukemi as I entered strongly…probably the closest I'll ever get to doing anything like Utada sensei does. Instead of just turning palm down against the wrist for the top hand, I then moved to a soft but firm atemi to the side of the neck while maintaining connection with both hands. Uke rotated all the way around the bottom hand like it was a pivot point, going completely over the top. WOW. It'll never happen like that again…zanshin was a kick!

I asked my uke afterward if it was my waza that produced the breakfall, or if he was just being nice. He said that since I was entering so strongly, he really didn't have a choice. FWIW.

I should also note that I have done iriminage in a similar way...but it makes me nervous sometimes...one time uke's neck made a series of cracks as I threw him... The next time I did a similar throw, I controlled uke to 'force' the back throw...he was so busy trying to do a flying front fall, I just stopped and didn't throw. Uke wasn't very happy with me... :(

Best,
Ron

xuzen
02-14-2006, 11:04 PM
For those who thinks that mae ukemi (front roll/flip is possible; I just want to point out about one teensy-weensy detail.... The poll states clearly basic version of tenchi-nage. In my book, basic means kihon.

OK, having said that, for the sake of argument, you are doing ryote katate mochi tenchi nage ni, assuming uke comes in very strongly and with much commitment. As shite you tenkan and spun uke around so much that you essentially have uke facing the same direction as you are.

Then shite proceed to project uke forward. Uke does a forward roll or flip. If that is the technique shite is doing, then in my book, shite is not doing tenchi-nage. I would classify that as a form of kokyu nage.

IMO, I would consider that as a poorly executed jiyu waza technique. Such projection need too much cooperation to work. It is simply as a technique to help uke learn how to ukemi. To consider it as a technique proper, NAY. I prefer the SLAM UKE ONTO MAT (TM) version.

To SiWilson,
I also agree on the side flip.... It has happened on numerous occasion in my practice before. Nasty little bugger those side flip.

grondahl
02-15-2006, 02:06 AM
I would classify that as a form of kokyu nage

And what is ot that separates tenchinage from being a kokyu nage with a name?

The "ushiro" mae ukemi is a very fast fall, like the one you do if tori enters very strongly or directly in iriminage or sokumen iriminage.

Nick Simpson
02-15-2006, 08:20 AM
I'd say its upto uke, whatever they can do they should do.

But for the sake of the discussion, for the most basic tenchinage I would say a side/rear break fall is probably the best as it still allows tori to lock uke's hips out but is easier to perform than a flip/tobu ukemi. For a more advanced tenchi, then flip/tobu ukemi all the way, if it's neccessary.

billybob
02-15-2006, 01:46 PM
John Riggs: "Whatever is safe."

This is the guy I want to train with.

I lean toward any of the opinions expressed that are similar to "You just go with it, the way you are going, whatever is safe."

If nage is a beginner he may not know that we are in a situation that could break my back or neck.

Boon said:
A good outcome, you should get uke resting his weight entirely on one leg and the other leg is at tip toe. At this moment in time, uke is probably arched backwards, with his head behind his center of gravity. The proceed with tsugi ashi (sliding) movement at a 45 degree angle across his arched back. Please note, as you slide, your hip is connected to the hip of uke.


I can imagine 'falling' backwards with the momentum, or jumping back and falling and countering the technique by bringing nage forward and turning to do sutemi waza. No?

dave