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white rose
02-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Hi guys,

I haven't been on for a while. I see young Nick Simpson is being a pest and Timmy, yes you write to cleetus but no e-mails or texts for me ha. You lot should try trainning with them. :confused:

Anyway our Sensei is to teach on a course for the assocation I left to train with him. As I make 200 hundred mile round trips to train with him, it was cool to see him up in the north-east.

I was told from the senior instructor in the area that I was not able to attend this course, as the assocation running the course feels that it would create a bad atmoss if I was there.

As someone who trains with Sensei as often as possible it was very upsetting to have him teach in the area and not be there. I have spoken to Sensei and he have told me that I am still loved by all, hooray for me.

But that is not the point I wish to get on to. Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo. :sorry:

Edwin Neal
02-08-2006, 08:26 AM
i find this kind of politically and egotistically motivated behavior quite contrary to the ideals of aikido... but it happens all too frequently... i suggest you show up anyway and be respectful... this kind of situation should be challenged... if they love you they would not act this way...

white rose
02-08-2006, 08:42 AM
Cheers Edwin,

But if I show up it may cause a bit of a scene and thats the last thing I want. My point is, if you ban people from the dojo what do they learn. I have in the past told people to leave the dojo for being late on the mat but only for the one class, this did not go down while and the indivdual in question has never set foot in my dojo since. But to say never come back is a big step and as you say contrary to the ideals of Aikido. Surely they should be showing me what am missing, not reinfocring the idea I was right to leave in the first place.

Edwin Neal
02-08-2006, 08:53 AM
the scene is not the point if they are sincere in their love and respect and desire to practice... who cares who else is there??? let the senior instructor deal with it... you didn't cause the scene you just come to practice... leave the dojo for tardiness is a little extreme what if they were stuck in traffic??? this kind of bickering and feuding is silly... you can tell them i said so...LOL... for what thats worth...

happysod
02-08-2006, 09:02 AM
Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo. While I can see there can be a valid reasons for banning someone from a particular dojo, they're small places really and there must be a level of trust in training and discipline, what you're describing is a blanket ban covering that entire association - this makes less sense (unless you're a dangerous psychotic, as I see S. Shields in your post this may be true...).

As regards tracking you down in order to tell you not to train with your own sensei who, I presume has been invited up specifically, that's just downright weird and to my mind rude. I'm also surprised your instructor has acquiesced to this, but without any real details regarding the situation or transgression (which I suggest you don't post, it'll not help) all I can offer is my condolences. Fully support your decision to not turn up as requested. It won't be fun and you'd have just added to your detractors sense of rightness for ignoring a polite request not to attend.

Yann Golanski
02-08-2006, 09:29 AM
Ah, the wonders of UK Aikido politics... Really, people should grow up but that's not going to happen. I still cannot believe that the UK needs 50 odd Aikido associations of various kind and styles. Although, hearing things like Sean Cassidy's story helps to explains why there are so many.

Aikido spirit is so rarely seen in aikidoka... Shame really.

</jaded>

white rose
02-08-2006, 09:36 AM
Strong words there. The only reason I wish to train with them again is because my Sensei is teaching on it. If their senior instructor were teaching, I would not be bothered.

As for just going along, I'm a great believer in you do what you are told. I joined the association I'm with now because I wish to train in they style of Aikido. Within that is, to me, the idea that when a senior grade say something you do not question them, you do what you are told because I believe these people have my best interests at heart. That is why I train with them and why I left the other lot behind.

As for the individual I asked to leave the dojo for being late, he lived 10Min's from the dojo and just didn't seem bothered about getting to class on time. Also the fact I got told off for his behavior the week before and told people to be there on time only, to me made it worst. I dare say if he come on Aikiweb his story would be different.

The people who run this course have a habit of banning people, yes they also like kicking people out of they association. My main point of all this is to find out if anyone thought banning people from the dojo works, or are you seen as being afraid of the people you are banning for what ever reason. may be they afraid I have improved without them. I know that sounds big headed, but in four years I hope I would have improved.

The Aikido I do now is in my view better than it was under they teaching.

bkedelen
02-08-2006, 09:37 AM
No offense but I do not get the impression that we are getting the whole story here.

white rose
02-08-2006, 09:51 AM
I stated that in my last post. There is always two sides to the story, but the question is always the same! Do you think you are teaching people Aikido by banning them from your dojo.

white rose
02-08-2006, 09:55 AM
Ian,

Are you the gent who has trained with Issac Coll. I was reading a thread put on be Nick Simpson, about how bad he was and I seem to remember you say you had trained with him,

Mark Freeman
02-08-2006, 10:03 AM
Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo. :sorry:
Sean
to answer the question in your post, yes of course, but only if they have displayed behaviour that warrants it. Being late does not qualify. I can only think that persistant abusive or dangerous behaviour would force me to ban someone.
We can all make mistakes, and we can all learn to modify what we do. However a teacher has all of their students to consider, so if the removal of one is to the benefit of the many then so be it. Aikido is for all, but there has to be some basic rules that everyone abides by.

As for the rest, politics, discussing these difficulties on an open forum could help to worsen the problem if not treated carefully.

Whenever only half a story is told to a wide audience, there is potential for misunderstanding.
Are you looking for support for your position? You talk of 'the other lot'. They may not have a chance to put their side of the story.

regards,
Mark

happysod
02-08-2006, 10:45 AM
Sean, yes I've trained with Isaac but the last time must be over 13 years ago. Bad is the wrong word, he was certainly "practical" in his outlook at times and definitely knew his ma. (and please, gent should never be used in conjuction with me)

white rose
02-08-2006, 10:45 AM
Very well put Mark. I'm not looking for support but was interested in what people thought. Yes I may have been to Hastie in me asking the individual to leave but I am learning as an instructor all the time. In the same place again may be I would do things different, but the past is the past and I cannot let things pray on my mind, as its so small, I've been told.

As for banning people, yes it is a hard one. If I thought that a person should be banned, do you not think other things could be done to help the problem. As for my problem its not a problem, as I'm not going. I asking other people's view on banning and just using myself as a way of pointing it out.

If a person left my class, trained with someone else. I'd like them to train on a course, for one thing its money to pay for the course and I could see how their Aikido is developing. Yes and there the good sound beating they get to.

white rose
02-08-2006, 10:56 AM
I trained with Issac around 15 years ago, and got up to nidan with him. I just thought there, (yes it hurt Nick) do you think Issac would have been please if you showed up late. I never did, I was terrified of him. But his Aikido was brilliant. Anyone wishing a good Aikido class W/Bay WMCA is the place to be.

aikidoc
02-08-2006, 12:03 PM
The banning of people from dojos is not uncommon even if they are at high level. I know of one aikikai shihan (8th dan) who kicked out the shihan I was studying under at the time by having one of his senior students ask him to leave a seminar. He was apparently offended that my instructor had chosen to go with the wrong group when the Tohei - aikikai split occurred decades earlier. Politics always seem to prevail even in the art of harmony.

I'm not sure of the circumstances under which you left-tense or friendly or downright acrimonious. However, I do feel in a free market society, people have the right to restrict whomever they won't unless it is for religious, racial or ethnic reasons. It is just like another thread's conversation on kicking someone out of a dojo. I think they have the right to do so as long as they have valid reasons not based on race, sex, creed, or political reasons. I have refused to allow people to join my dojo-subtlely by directing them off to something else-psychological problems and wanting to go off meds that controlled them. I did not want to risk someone going postal on us.

Adam Alexander
02-08-2006, 12:21 PM
I was told from the senior instructor in the area that I was not able to attend this course, as the assocation running the course feels that it would create a bad atmoss if I was there.

As someone who trains with Sensei as often as possible it was very upsetting to have him teach in the area and not be there. I have spoken to Sensei and he have told me that I am still loved by all, hooray for me.

But that is not the point I wish to get on to. Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo. :sorry:

Yes. In this case, apparently, the point is to maintain a certain atmosphere.

I love my sibling...but I really don't care to spend more than the requisite time around them because we're so different. Love's got nothing to do with it.

Maybe it's time you started your own organization.

Nick Simpson
02-08-2006, 12:51 PM
Lo all, just to clear some issues up:

Sean hasnt been banned from training with his current organanisation, he is in good standing there. His current sensei, is teaching a course for an organisation that sean belonged to in the past. He has been told that certain members of the previous organisation are unhappy with him and would not like to have him on their mat.

Sean is happy to refrain from attending the event, as he is doing what his sensei has asked of him.

Speaking for Sean here, correct me if Im off the money here mate: There is no reason for Sean to start his own organisation and he would not wish to.

This is all about politness and basically, keeping the peace.

Sean, you of course know my mind on the matter, but Im not going to repost it on a public forum :)

On a more general level, I agree that sometimes there is a valid reason for banning someone from a dojo, e.g. if they are dangerous, consistently rude/offensive/racist/sexist, if they are not interested in learning what is being taught, if they sexually harrass/prey on members of said dojo. Theres prolly more than that, but this is just off the top of my head.

I know the reasons behind these circumstances and personally, I think it is a rather bad example of 'banning' someone. But at the end of the day, it is a one off event as Sean would never wish to step onto these peoples matts on a normal basis (he originally only wished to because his sensei is the guest instructor).

I believe the incident says a great deal about the people involved. Where is the example of 'Big Aikido'?

Nick Simpson
02-08-2006, 12:54 PM
Show up late on Isaac's matt? Lolz...

billybob
02-08-2006, 04:16 PM
Ages ago I was acting an ass and Saotome Sensei gripped me by the arm and bodily threw me off the mat. My best friend was teaching once, and I acted an ass and he threw me off the mat. Each time I went back - and apologized. Well meaning; none too bright.

In this case - think nothing of it. A chance to make amends may present itself later, if you are open to it. My mom is none too pleasant, but for some reason I can't give up on her completely.

Offered humbly.

David

Dirk Hanss
02-08-2006, 06:13 PM
Strong words there. The only reason I wish to train with them again is because my Sensei is teaching on it. If their senior instructor were teaching, I would not be bothered.


I do not know UK very well, but I guess, if the chief instructor for that specific class, i.e. your sensei - invites you, there should not be any one making a scene - unless your behaviour lacks of respect.

Ther might be a few people, who know you better and thus do not practise with you one by one, but there should be enough partners for you - again depending on your behaviour.

I always thought all British gentlemen were good sportsmen and I still believe in British fairness, especially in aikido and there especially on the mat.

Hope the best

Dirk

white rose
02-09-2006, 03:14 AM
Cheers for that guy's. But to put the question another way. What am I to learn from being banned from the mat. This is the first time it has happened to me and I just think its pointless, I learn nothing from it. I thought Aikido was about trying to get through to people, yes I do accept that certain behavior is not to be tolerated. But the idea of creating a bad atmoss, which I never would want to do, is a poor reason for banning and the very reason why I'll not attend as well as being told not to. Thanks Nick for post, I don't mind you bottle it. As for setting up on my own. I have no need to, I've never enjoyed my Aikido so much as I do now.

happysod
02-09-2006, 03:30 AM
What am I to learn from being banned from the mat At the risk of sounding flippant, you learned shit happens? Still, on the happy side it sounds like it was helpful to your aikido, rather than a problem.

I've never actually ascribed to the idea that any organization, whatever it's ideals, is more than the individuals involved so I'm less surprised these things happen. As aikido often seems to embrace some of the worst aspects of both ma and spirituality, often through the lens of different cultural perspectives being misapplied, you've got loads of areas for conflict. Having said that, these same problems crop up in any local club of any strip (pigeon fanciers can get really bad as money's involved) so why should we expect aikido to be any different?

OT - pm'd you about Isaac

Yann Golanski
02-09-2006, 04:06 AM
Sean, you've just learnt that human are despicable, punny and horrible creatures. Welcome to the world of the great jaded ones. Your welcome pack is in the post.

Since you are not far away from York, why don't you come and train with us?

white rose
02-09-2006, 04:19 AM
Cool, cheers Yann. Can you pass on your class times and destructions to your dojo. (I mean that its a joke Nick). Would it be ok to bring a few people down with me. I love meet people and Iam I great guy and don't let anyone tell you different.

Yann Golanski
02-09-2006, 06:46 AM
Sean,

Sure thing, bring folks around. If you come on Monday, there is an open matt for 30 mins at the end of the class so you could use that to show how you guys do things differently.

You can find location and all on the web site but in case you are lazy: YO24 1BJ and google map should give you all you need. www.york-aikido.org/location.html and www.york-aikido.org/training.html should answer the rest.

PS: I should have added that everybody here is welcome to come and visit.

Nick Simpson
02-09-2006, 06:52 AM
Your not taking me on a filthy Shudothugs mat Sean! ;)

Mark Freeman
02-09-2006, 07:20 AM
I always thought all British gentlemen were good sportsmen and I still believe in British fairness, especially in aikido and there especially on the mat.

If only it were so Dirk!
Although we are a pretty fair and tolerant people by nature, much of the old school 'good sportsmanship' has long since vanished. You only have to watch the antics of some of our grossly overpaid and spoiled footballers to understand this.

As for aikido, the UK as someone has already mentioned has about 50 different organisations. Last year I did attend a huge celebration in honour of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and 50 years of British Aikido, and it all seemed pretty healthy to me!

Cheers,
Mark

Amelia Smith
02-09-2006, 07:23 AM
OK, it sounds like Sean is being banned from this seminar for petty political reasons, and like no one is going to learn much from it. I've heard of other instances of people being banned, or students of one dojo not being allowed to train at another dojo because of personal/political splits (recent and historical). It seems to be a kind of test of loyalty.

However, I think that when people are being consistently violent, dangerous, out of control, or very disrespectful, they should be asked to leave. They should be spoken to about their problemb behaviour and given a chance to change, but if they don't, and are making training dangerous or demeaning for other students (and driving those students off the mat) I would not want them in a class with me.

Does the banned person learn anything? Probably not, but the other students have a right to a respectful and reasonably safe training environment. I also think that banning someone from the mat should be reserved for fairly extreme cases. Maybe aikido is for everyone, but it can't always be for everyone at once on the same mat, if interpersonal problems threaten to explode into violence.

Nick Simpson
02-09-2006, 07:28 AM
'Last year I did attend a huge celebration in honour of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and 50 years of British Aikido, and it all seemed pretty healthy to me!'

I heard some things that were less than brilliant about that event. But hey, horses for courses.

Lyle Bogin
02-09-2006, 02:34 PM
My feeling is that if you get booted and you feel it was unjust or unwise, those people no longer deserve your time. Find people who appreciate you.

Edwin Neal
02-09-2006, 04:35 PM
Sean you should ask your sensei if you could serve as his otomo, and uke for the seminar... this would give a legitimate reason for your presence and might give close minded people a good lesson... the politics of this situation still elude me... but i feel politics have no place in aikido, although people tend to ignore this...

tenshinaikidoka
02-09-2006, 05:16 PM
I too have come across this issue. I am training and have wanted to train in another orginazation/system/style (something created for my profession), however, I was denied due to the Sensei I train under. It really had nothing to do with me (at least I hope not) as I have never trained with any of the people I requested instruction by, it was mearly a reflection upon the Sensei I trained under and the issues between the orginazation and sensei. So, right or wrong, I had to continue on with what I do and had to regretfully not train under a style I thought would benefit me and a style I was hoping to benefit. It is sad that politics play a part in these things and good students/instructors are really the victim IMHO! But hey, it isn't just in martial arts or Aikido, it is in life that these issues play out as well!

Perhaps one day, we can all get along, but until then, we train!!!

Peter Seth
02-10-2006, 06:29 AM
A very interesting thread?? but the aiki way is to find 'the balance' and that can be elusive with only one side to measure and make judgement on. I don't actually think that sean was 'banned' I think the conclusion was that it would be 'prudent' if he did not actually train. I am sure there would be no objection to him attending the seminar per se. :)

ian
02-10-2006, 07:12 AM
As for just going along, I'm a great believer in you do what you are told. I joined the association I'm with now because I wish to train in their style of Aikido...
The people who run this course have a habit of banning people, yes they also like kicking people out of they association.

It is very honourable of you Sean. But... the Samurai were a bunch of idiots who often killed themselves when their completely selfish master died.

I HAVE respect for people equally as humans. However SHOWING respect is different. You can think your instructor is the biggest arse in the world, but you can SHOW respect simply for the purpose of learning the techniques/aikido.

Unfortuantely people with big egos believe that a show of respect IS respect. Once you've got everything you want from that club, you can go where you want and owe them nothing!

I'm definately of the school of steal everything you can from your aikido instructors (in terms of training!) - if you admire them as people or they become friends, all the better. Your main obligation in training, is to learn. Your obligations to friends is different.

(i.e. follow their rules if you feel it benefits you, and you don't sacrifice too much of yourself or you don't feel you can appeal to their 'better' nature).

P.S. I don't think banning someone is useful unless you feel they are a threat to the rest of the students (or maybe even are using the techniques for bad ends) - and in that case it should be warning followed by a permanent ban.

Banning someone from attending 'because of the atmosphere' is bizzare. Personally, if someone were to ban me for such reasons, I would feel that they were a very weak personality and were not willing to stand-up for me. Maybe there should be some reflection on this matter for that person.

Peter Seth
02-10-2006, 08:21 AM
Edwin, I fear politics are not the issue at all - I think there are more personal issues involved with more than one person affected by attitudes and behaviour. I have been involved in martial arts for over 45 years - aikido 30, and am as easy going as an old shoe in my dealings with people, I have a great deal of respect for all people who practice their art with respect for the individual, for both 'small aikido' - (physical practice), but most importantly 'big aikido' - (life), with true 'aiki' spirit. I would not dream of assuming that anyone else was would be afraid that my aikido had 'outstripped' theirs. Aikido is a personal thing and should not be 'matched or compared' - just enjoyed and shared, at whatever level.
Aikido should be an enjoyable, lifelong experience - but - sometimes certain attitudes caste a shadow which affect that enjoyment.
I think I have a good reputation as being a friendly, moderate, fair and upbeat individual - all I can say is that it takes a lot to upset me - BUT - along with one or two of my colleagues - its happened!

Aikido is about learning to live life in harmony with 'the world' and all its energies - not trying to control or manipulate things to your needs. Nuf said
Wishing all the best to everyone - sean included
Pete :)

Geoff Aisbitt
02-12-2006, 07:36 AM
Hi Guys,

I read this posting 3 days ago, and have just now managed the time to answer.
I belong to the association that Sean (CLAIMS) he has ben banned from attending the dojo.

Seans, Sensei has been invited to teach a course for our association, Seans Sensei was also approached about our association not allowing Sean to train on the tatami, the word BANNED has never been mentioned. Seans Sensei said, probably what most fair minded people would say, in that it is our association, and our association took the decision for the good and benifit of Aikido in regards Sean will not be allowed to train on the course, he can and I will offer the invite now, attend the course as a spectator and wath what his Sensei teaches if he wishes to do so.

Reference one of Seans claims that we also kick people out of association he is also true, that's what rules and regulations are for, break them and suffer the outcome.

However Sean left our association of his own doing, it is things that he has done since leaving our association that warrents our association not allowing him on the mat.

All the best to you all wherever you may be.

Geoff :)

aikidoc
02-12-2006, 09:16 AM
Perhaps one day, we can all get along, but until then, we train!!!


I bet that would make O'Sensei proud.

Nick Simpson
02-12-2006, 09:43 AM
Hi Geoff,

My names Nick Simpson, I've trained with you once or twice (at peters class on a thursday and on kobukan courses in the past). Im one of Seans and Sensei Riley's students.

I just want to bring to your attention that Sean was just providing some background to his question. The issue of him not coming onto your matt is not the question/issue here.

The question was roughly:

'What do you think people learn if you ban them from the dojo'

It was not: 'Do you think my situation is fair?'

Other people have misread the initial post and it's intent. I just wanted to make everyone aware of this...

Best,

Nick.

Edwin Neal
02-12-2006, 09:58 AM
personalities, egos and hubris... all bull... it has nothing to do with aikido, but with the pettiness of individuals involved and attempts to save face, which in fact only show their shallowness... you should be ashamed of your actions... with hopes that ALL aikidoka learn and grow beyond this kind of thing, and respect...

Peter Seth
02-12-2006, 12:32 PM
Hi Edwin.
I notice you have some very definite opinions on things - can be a very positive trait, but maybe should be balanced by a 'world vision' of any situation?
Just to see where I am coming from in this thread -

(Quote: Me earlier - 'Aikido is about learning to live life in harmony with 'the world' and all its energies - not trying to control or manipulate things to your needs'. Nuf said
Wishing all the best to everyone - sean included
Pete)

PS: By the way - 'Who' should be ashamed of their actions? I think the respondants have tried to apply the principles of aiki in this case. Ie: create balance and harmony out of a potentially unharmonious situation.

Geoff Aisbitt
02-12-2006, 12:35 PM
Hi Nick,

I appreciate what you are saying, it just seemed to imply a slur on our association because we took the step to bar an individual from our association, the reasons why are of no importance to anyone else I would imagine. I like most Aikido Dan grades are protecting their own association and Sensei.

Regards.

Geoff.

Edwin Neal
02-12-2006, 12:42 PM
aikido is to build bridges, not burn them or set up toll booths...

Peter Brown
02-12-2006, 12:50 PM
Banning students from classes seems quite strange to me. I am not aware of any one being banned in my Dojo over the last 40 years. All I would like to say is that we are only Instructors when we have Aikidoka to instruct, with out them you have no Aikido.
Effort should be made to overcome problems, we all have one thing in common. Aikido the way of harmony ;)
Pete Brown

Geoff Aisbitt
02-12-2006, 12:50 PM
Hi Edwin,

I respect your views, however you only have your views in regards of training in harmony and in peace with everyone, I totally agree with you on that. However I think you as an American and myself as British are fully aware at this moment in time the world is not a nice place, and there are some not very nice people in the world.

Yes it would be fantastic if everyone could get along, but as the saying goes, "you can't please everyone all of the time"

Yours in Aikido.

Geoff

Edwin Neal
02-12-2006, 01:43 PM
as my grandma used to say two wrongs don't make a right...

Geoff Aisbitt
02-12-2006, 02:07 PM
Edwin
I agree again, but to let an offender off all the time, why have justice at all?

Geoff

Edwin Neal
02-12-2006, 02:26 PM
depends on the 'offense' and the 'justice' applied... refer to the thread on James Smith for more on offenses and justice applied to them... if the offense is serious harm or endangerment of others... okay... if others just don't like him or his attitude... then maybe not...

Geoff Aisbitt
02-12-2006, 03:22 PM
Agreed again,
This is not the place to discuss offences by any of our fellow martial artists, as we all train for our own individual means or ends. And as you have just mentioned there are occasions where everyone has a limit, depending on the offence.

Thank you for you comments.

Geoff

Edwin Neal
02-12-2006, 03:29 PM
i believe this is exactly the place to discuss these sorts of things... transparency, honesty, and openness, are important aspects to any MA, but especially aikido...

Amir Krause
02-13-2006, 04:54 AM
Regardless of the specific situation

I do believe it is the right (and sometimes duty) of the Dojo-Cho and\or Sensei to decide who is learning in his Dojo. If a larger organization exists, the organization hierarchy may sometimes have the right to ask for specific people to not being taught.

I can find lots of reasons for such cases, even from my own memory of situations we have faced in our dojo. From straight and simple situations such as a student who harasses Sensei and actually threatened him with violence (very stupid), through a practitioner of another style who kept coming to our lessons and insisted on trying his own dangerous ideas, and to an advanced student who kept having some commitment problems and finally decided he wishes to follow a different path and only come and visit.

Another Sensei may make a different decision with regard to such an issue, depending on his demeanor and his perception of his own educational role in the life of his adult student. But making such decisions is within the rights of each Sensei, Dojo-Cho and Shihan in accordance with the area \ clubs each is responsible for.

I would also like to remind everyone that we are talking of people here, and they may be persuaded to change their opinion given time and changes in the personality and behavior of such a student.

As for the last question, I do think the notion that one is banned from some place, may give him some idea as for the feeling he has created with some people. You can ignore that, or take this as a slap aimed to educate you.

Reminder again - I do not know any of the people or organizations involved. So I am only writing of the general case.

Amir

Nick Simpson
02-13-2006, 06:06 AM
'I like most Aikido Dan grades are protecting their own association and Sensei.'

Of course Geoff, I'd expect nothing else ;)

Best,

Nick.

philipsmith
02-13-2006, 08:51 AM
'I like most Aikido Dan grades are protecting their own association and Sensei.'


Two points here:

If the association is strong why does it need protection?
Unless its a direct physical threat; why does sensei need protection?

This isn't to demean anyone but surely the Sensei's (and by extension the association's) Aikido stands or falls on its own merits.

ruthmc
02-13-2006, 08:56 AM
I like most Aikido Dan grades are protecting their own association and Sensei.
Why would you feel the need to do that?

I genuinely don't see the need to 'protect' one's association or sensei. My sensei can protect himself pretty well - ask the guy who got into a road rage incident with him one time :D My association is open minded and things will always be discussed, and there is none of the "my style's better than your style" or "my sensei fell out with your sensei" rubbish going on. We train with whoever we like, differences are embraced, we share what we have learned from different sensei.

It is precisely because of this open spirit that the organisation works as well as it does - it just doesn't attract people who wish to be argumentative or political. If one of us did something dumb or disrespectful, we'd be letting ourselves down first and foremost, not just sensei or the organisation!

I don't see the purpose in 'banning' anybody from attending a course for solely political reasons. Changing associations is not an act of disloyalty - every individual has the right to decide where he or she wishes to train. Sensei may advise, but they do not have the right to prevent you from training elsewhere - they are not your mum!

Ruth

Amir Krause
02-13-2006, 09:34 AM
every individual has the right to decide where he or she wishes to train. Sensei may advise, but they do not have the right to prevent you from training elsewhere - they are not your mum!


Obviously, on the other hand, they do not have to teach you or take you back either. M.A. is a way of life and should be considered as a certain type of commitment, if this is the view taken by your sensei, and you prove to be unable to take this commitment upon you, why must he accept you ?

Amir

Mark Freeman
02-13-2006, 09:36 AM
I don't see the purpose in 'banning' anybody from attending a course for solely political reasons. Changing associations is not an act of disloyalty - every individual has the right to decide where he or she wishes to train. Sensei may advise, but they do not have the right to prevent you from training elsewhere - they are not your mum!

LOL!! :D :D thanks for that Ruth,

My mum's a lot more scary than any Sensei ;)

Cheers,

Mark

ruthmc
02-14-2006, 04:17 AM
LOL!! :D :D thanks for that Ruth,

My mum's a lot more scary than any Sensei ;)
Your'e welcome!

So is my mum when she gets annoyed with me ;)

Ruth

ruthmc
02-14-2006, 04:33 AM
Obviously, on the other hand, they do not have to teach you or take you back either. M.A. is a way of life and should be considered as a certain type of commitment, if this is the view taken by your sensei, and you prove to be unable to take this commitment upon you, why must he accept you ?
Of course the sensei doesn't have to accept you. When I say you are free to train anywhere, I mean anywhere they are happy to have you train with them :)

OTOH I think that anybody who turns away a student because of trivial reasons is only making themselves look a bit silly.

If you buy into the whole 'Aikido is a way of life' thing, would you not also buy into 'Aikido is for all'? To me they are an equal part of O Sensei's vision.

Re: Commitment, is the working mother with 3 kids who can only train once a week giving any less commitment than the single 21 year old guy who trains 6 times a week? Is the 40 year old guy who lives out in the middle of nowhere, 100 miles from the nearest dojo, any less committed than his friend who lives in the city with 5 or 6 dojo to choose from?

I have seen too many people being unfairly treated because they didn't measure up to their sensei's ideal of 'commitment'. It is not something fixed and rigid, any more than it is in a partnership. It is floating and flexible, and measured by intention, not absolutes.

YMMV

Ruth

Edwin Neal
02-14-2006, 07:03 AM
well put Ruth!... i totally resemble some of those remarks...

Justin Gaar
02-14-2006, 09:04 AM
This is a frequent occurence among large organizations or associations. The high authority figures within the group feel that they need to lay down their own version of the law in order to preserve order and the "chain of command". Personally the "chain of command" is a crude reference to a power trip. But thats just me. IMHO I believe a yudansha is a yudansha. They have worked long and hard and deserve respect. Yet this written (and apparently sometimes unwritten) rule was created without account for deviance. As are most rules. What I mean by deviance is the unavoidable imperfections that all of us exhibit. Remember, yudansha were one go-kyu as well. What bothers me is that they've forgotten that they were once in the positions of the people they have outcast of their own accord. They ones lacked flaws in ukemi just as we did. Sean. It may be moot point now. If it is, if this happens in the future, ask what this may be coming from. If it's a misunderstanding, so be it. Make sure the misunderstanding becomes an understanding. Other then that, it matters not the opinions of the other students. What matters is that you progress and learn.
Best of Luck,
Justin

white rose
02-14-2006, 11:20 AM
Cheers for all your comments guy's.

At this point I'd just like to say thanks you to Mr. Aisbitt for his kind invitation, but I have never like watching Aikido (even if it is the best around in my opinoen). Also I would like to thank Mr. Seth for including me personaly in his posts.

I may come back to this point after I've had a think. (Yes Nick its going to hurt I know)

Geoff Aisbitt
02-14-2006, 11:52 AM
Hi Sean,

Thank you for the reply, I think you know the score, myself and you as far as I am aware have never had a cross word between us. The invite stands, and is genuine,.

Geoff

white rose
02-14-2006, 12:45 PM
Thanks again Mr. Aisbitt for your kind words, but as I say before I'am a great believe in doing what your told. I think that if me being on the mat will create bad atmoss, its better if I stay away altogether.

I wish you and your association all the best and know fine well that the course will be enjoyable as you have one of the best Sensei around teaching it. All I can say to all who commented on this thread, if you can train at Crowtree Leisure Centre, Sunderland, on the 9th April please do so. I feel it a worth while course to attend, and the training, oh the training I miss it so much. Its brill.

As for the score, all I know is Sunderland will lose, please everyone don't post in making fun of us (Sunderland fans), we need your understanding at this point in time.

And its football not soccer, I'am referring to for our American friends.

Amir Krause
02-15-2006, 02:46 AM
Of course the sensei doesn't have to accept you. When I say you are free to train anywhere, I mean anywhere they are happy to have you train with them :)


Already in this comment you hide the concept - a sensei should accept all students, it is wrong to filter students and select those the sensei feels he should teach. I disagree with this concept.



OTOH I think that anybody who turns away a student because of trivial reasons is only making themselves look a bit silly.


Agree, but maintaining a certain spirit in the dojo is not a trivial issue and may in some cases be an issue of "way of life".


If you buy into the whole 'Aikido is a way of life' thing, would you not also buy into 'Aikido is for all'? To me they are an equal part of O Sensei's vision.


Japanese Martial Arts considered themselves as a way of life long before Aikido, yet many M.A. were very restrictive and selective with students. Requiring blood-oath of loyalty was not unheard of in the koryu styles. Looking for recommendations and examining students before accepting them is still common in some places. I have read some styles maintain this concept even at present.

And, Ueshiba sensei vision is not part of my Aikido. In fact, I was told a blood oath had been required in Korindo Aikido at the beginning (around 1950s). So please excuse my ignoring this part of your comment.


Re: Commitment, is the working mother with 3 kids who can only train once a week giving any less commitment than the single 21 year old guy who trains 6 times a week? Is the 40 year old guy who lives out in the middle of nowhere, 100 miles from the nearest dojo, any less committed than his friend who lives in the city with 5 or 6 dojo to choose from?


No argument here. Commitment should be measured with relation to a specific situation. Yet, in some cases, a person is simply incapable of committing for something, in those cases, one should consider if it is not better to wait until he will be able to commit himself.


I have seen too many people being unfairly treated because they didn't measure up to their sensei's ideal of 'commitment'. It is not something fixed and rigid, any more than it is in a partnership. It is floating and flexible, and measured by intention, not absolutes.


I have seen both the phenomena you wrote about, as well as people who came to the Dojo when they felt, and disappeared for some periods for no good reason. Those people were surprised when Sensei and veterans treated them with less enthusiasm (actually, one such situation I think about was a tourist who went to Aikikai Hombu in Japan and disappeared for a two weeks tour without telling anyone).

'commitment' is a complicated issue, that should be considered with care. In many cases, there is not a clear cut write and wrong, rather some blame should fall on both sides.

Amir

Dirk Hanss
02-15-2006, 03:26 AM
Already in this comment you hide the concept - a sensei should accept all students, it is wrong to filter students and select those the sensei feels he should teach. I disagree with this concept.


I do not agree. There is no sensei, who can teach all the world.

And even if the sensei is willing to teach you, he should do it in the way, he thinks is the best.

That might be inviting you as uke, that might be treating you like any other participant. That might be even ignoring you or not accepting you for this session. (and the next and ...)

I do not know the guys of this thread, so it is just speaking generally, but in the end it is sensei's decision.

Regards Dirk

ruthmc
02-15-2006, 09:38 AM
Already in this comment you hide the concept - a sensei should accept all students, it is wrong to filter students and select those the sensei feels he should teach. I disagree with this concept.
Huh? Not hiding any concepts in my statement! I accept that not everybody will want certain students on their mat, and that is fine with me. I would never presume to tell anybody what they 'should' do! My own preference is to train with sensei who welcome students from anywhere. Exclusivity and cliques are not good for creating harmony and understanding, IMO.
YMMV.

And I agree with Dirk - no one sensei can teach everybody in the World, we all need different teachers at different times.

Ruth

James Davis
02-15-2006, 10:19 AM
And its football not soccer, I'am referring to for our American friends.
It is so very soccer. :p

Dean Harris
02-15-2006, 10:28 AM
Not much Harmony and where is the spirit? There must be a lesson to learn somewhere. Why do they not wont you at there Dojo in the first place?

white rose
02-15-2006, 11:45 AM
The question if reworded may be, what does exclusion do. Does it en-power the people who are doing the excluded, or reinforce the fact that exclusion only hurts Aikido in the long run.

My situation aside, who benefits from any kind of exclusion. I think only the person how thinks he was some kind of power over people and like's to show you they can effect your life for the good or the bad. Personaly I feel very sorry for people like that.

And James something I done understand. How can you call it American Football when you move the ball around with your hands. Surely it should be American Handball :rolleyes: :D

James Davis
02-15-2006, 04:27 PM
And James something I done understand. How can you call it American Football when you move the ball around with your hands. Surely it should be American Handball :rolleyes: :D
I really don't like "American Football", myself (or handball for that matter :yuck: ). I tend to do what my Brazilian and Peruvian friends do and pronounce it "Futbol". Futbol is played everywhere. How can the whole world be wrong about this sport? :)

Technically, I played "soccer" in my youth (a long time ago), but I'm still a big fan of it - and futbol. :D

Peter Seth
02-16-2006, 02:01 AM
Hi all.
Just to point out the course with sensei riley is actually at The Seaburn Centre, Sunderland. I agree, sensei Riley is an Excellent instructor and I have the greatest respect for him and his organisation. That is why I invited him to instruct on the course.
this whole thread is getting rather twee, as most of the contributers know nothing of the background to the issue they are just responding at a superficial level on the info as it is developing - no matter the direction.
The best to everyone
Pete

white rose
02-16-2006, 10:13 AM
As I stated in my last post, putting me aside. EXCLUSION helps no but the people doing the excluding.

A final thought on this thread, can someone give any examples of exclusion being a positive thing.

Ron Tisdale
02-16-2006, 10:19 AM
Yes. Say I have a propensity for getting into fights, and I am a yudansha with a dojo. My instructor gets tired of bailing me out of jail / his dojo getting a bad reputation. He boots me, at least until I learn to keep my hands to myself.

That would be positive, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron

white rose
02-16-2006, 10:27 AM
Yeah I can see that being a very positive thing. Another one that I tried was asking someone to leave when they turned up late, when I was trying to get some grading training in. It didn't work but sh** happens I guess. I surpass my is not positive but I tried. Cheers Ron

Steve Mullen
02-19-2006, 03:11 PM
I can't help but thinking that exclusion, save in the cases of emtremely damaging behaviour (i.e sexual harrasment, devient behaviour of intentionally trying to do permanent damage) is detrimental to any course anywhere in any style.

To ban/barr/exclude/request the non attendance of a San-dan from a course can be nothing but detrimental as it deprives people of one more talented person who wants nothin g more than to train. his friends and fellow aikidoka may go to the course with sour feelings, they will have sour oppinions of the organisation which may inturn cause bad feelings to extend into bad behaviours which may lead to the need for them to be banned themselves. this will lead to their friends feeling sour......I think we can all guess where i am going.

The idea (in an ideal world full of pretty flowers and birds singing in the trees, free guiness by the tankard and more meat than one person can humanly and safely eat) is that one good turn manifests itself in three, three goes to nine nine to twenty seven, twenty seven to eighty one. in four steps you go from 1 to 81, sadly the same happens with ill feelings.

To get back to the post, i feel that asking someone not to train on their matt is an inherantly flawed idea (for the ideas above) but more than that it shows a side of an organisation that i personally didn't expect or believe existed (i have had the pleasure of training with and learning from many people from it). it has made me wonder what this whole idea of Harmony and Energy is actually all about.

Why train in it if we don't believe it, why believe it if it is never shown, why show it if it is never reciprocated?

It may be cynical but why bother training at all, and say we are training with harmony for all living things and with a balance of energy when we refuse the entry onto a course of someone who has left an organisation for what he felt would be a one better suited to his physical abilities, and his ideas of how aikido should be practiced? did O'Sensei not say that the only aikido you can do is your aikido.

what would have been worse a person leaving an organisation focused on a beautifully flowing style of aikido for one which is more focused on the irimi with room to 'play'

OR

Staying in the one they were in and trying to impose their attitude on an organisation which has prospered with its own distinct style and has no need to change to fit one individual.


To me the best way to burry any hatchet which may have existed was for one person to extend the olive brance to the thread starter and allow him to train. Not to say they thought it would cause bad feeling. bad feeling with whom? one might ask, surely it would only with those who would benefit from any reconciliation.

My extended rant/splurge of thoughts, musings and feelings over.....for now

Nick Simpson
02-21-2006, 06:24 AM
'this whole thread is getting rather twee, as most of the contributers know nothing of the background to the issue they are just responding at a superficial level on the info as it is developing - no matter the direction. '

Thats free speech for you. Personally, I think it became 'something else' when people named names...

However, there is a very good question in here that keeps getting overlooked:

'What do we learn from exclusion if anything?'

Jayson Teneur
02-22-2006, 07:13 AM
In my opinion and reading between the lines, this thread was started under false pretences in the pursuance of degrading the popularity of a certain organisation and or individuals, this seems to be purely vindictive.

So what are the outputs of EXCLUSION, simply in this context they are:

A course that is conducive to learning and not tit for tat.
Respect for the guest instructor and so that no one feels uncomfortable
Safety for the class
Emotions - based on the reaction that some students may behave erratically.


Those are my only thoughts on this matter, bar the fact that this thread is becoming a bickering match. If ego's were left out then the subject of EXCLUSION would be a fantastic topic particularly in where does ELITISM finishes and EXCLUSION begins!!!

Nick Simpson
02-22-2006, 07:18 AM
'In my opinion and reading between the lines, this thread was started under false pretences in the pursuance of degrading the popularity of a certain organisation and or individuals, this seems to be purely vindictive.'

How so Jay? No names were mentioned by the thread starter...

Jayson Teneur
02-22-2006, 08:10 AM
You know the background to this as well as we all do Nick! All the names are clearly given in the profiles as well as the dojo names but that wasn't my point as I know you are aware. Enough said m8. Respect where respect is due.

happysod
02-22-2006, 08:15 AM
There's only one real question that's come to my mind out of this thread, do you guys drink dog straight out of the bottle like all the namby southerners down here or do you still keep to the traditional half-pint glass (and please don't tell me your prefer larger)?

Jayson Teneur
02-22-2006, 08:22 AM
Out off the bottle (2 ltr bottles) personally bud!! Ya get a good drink and then gain the advantage of having a very useful anti pest device.

Steve Mullen
02-22-2006, 09:46 AM
How does one gain the right to veto someone's attendance, what reason do they need to give, where does it all end?

Nick Simpson
02-22-2006, 09:57 AM
'There's only one real question that's come to my mind out of this thread, do you guys drink dog straight out of the bottle like all the namby southerners down here or do you still keep to the traditional half-pint glass (and please don't tell me your prefer larger)?'

Out of a half glass if its possible, then again, a mate of mine once asked a local barmaid for 'a bottle of brown' and was handed a bottle of blue wkd alcopop stuff...

'You know the background to this as well as we all do Nick! All the names are clearly given in the profiles as well as the dojo names but that wasn't my point as I know you are aware. Enough said m8. Respect where respect is due.'

Aye.

Nick Simpson
02-22-2006, 09:58 AM
'How does one gain the right to veto someone's attendance, what reason do they need to give, where does it all end?'

Personally I would say:

1) They need to be in charge or otherwise highly influential upon those that are.
2) They dont 'Need' to give any reason.
3) Who knows?

white rose
02-23-2006, 12:40 PM
Hmmm. Elitism, a social hierarchy, top dog and alpha male. All terms I've heard and hold very dear to my heart :D ;)

It would be very easy to think grade or rank makes you able to tell a person they are excluded from the dojo. But it takes more than 20 mins in front of a group of people to find out who you are and what you want from Aikido as I have found out.

Its easy for people to pick apart something you put on a forum like this. But at the end of the day its not what you say but the idea you have the right to say it that is important.

As for getting at someone, WHY would I wish to do this. I have all I need in my life on and off the mat and can only wish the same for everyone who has posted on this thread. Now I feel I should tell Nick off for last weeks class :grr: evileyes ( only kidding bud it was one of the best classes I've been to for a long time. Look out world here comes Sensei Simpson)

Nick Simpson
02-23-2006, 03:12 PM
( only kidding bud it was one of the best classes I've been to for a long time. Look out world here comes Sensei Simpson)

Damn right, but this should be in my thread really, shouldnt it?

Mark Freeman
02-23-2006, 05:23 PM
Your notariety is spreading like a virus Nick, today your own thread, tomorrow the world.... ;)

Steve Mullen
02-24-2006, 05:09 AM
Hmm one of many viruses nick has spread to the world methinks ;p

Seriously though, he is riddled with dieases :uch: :yuck: evileyes

Nick Simpson
02-24-2006, 11:30 AM
Your notariety is spreading like a virus Nick, today your own thread, tomorrow the world....

Have you seen 'Pinky and the Brain'? Muwahahahaha...


Seriously though, he is riddled with dieases

I really hope your at the class in an hour, Steve...

Mark Freeman
02-25-2006, 09:07 AM
Have you seen 'Pinky and the Brain'? Muwahahahaha...

No

Everytime I make a reply in this daft thread, I realise it is 1 small step towards the 200 and world domination.... :freaky:

Tim Gerrard
02-25-2006, 01:26 PM
zzzzzzz

Nick Simpson
02-28-2006, 04:30 AM
'Everytime I make a reply in this daft thread, I realise it is 1 small step towards the 200 and world domination.... '

Thats the other thread, Mark...

Mark Freeman
02-28-2006, 11:07 AM
'Everytime I make a reply in this daft thread, I realise it is 1 small step towards the 200 and world domination.... '

Thats the other thread, Mark...

Whoops, forum blindness :eek: