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Adam Alexander
01-31-2006, 04:42 PM
You would think that, in this day and age, people would know better... Oh well.

Perhaps Mr Smith is trying to comment, from a position of total ignorance, on the fact that African Americans do not seem to be proportionally represented in the ranks of Aikido students. This I believe is the case and I would not be sure why that was true. I would hazard a guess that it might be the lack of focus on functional self defense in the art and that it takes so long before one can be very functional from a practical standpoint. In my youth, when Aikido was starting to take off, African Americans formed the vast majority of the students, at least in urban areas, in Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu. I think that they felt themselves to be more likely to encounter some self defense situation than the middle class white folks who flocked to Aikido.

Anyway, in the DC dojo where I trained, there is now a quite substantial African American student base, although given the fact that DC is by far a majoty African American as a population, it is still an under-represented group at the dojo. Perhaps where Mr Smith has trained this is even more the case...

So, rather than castigate Mr Smith for his ignorance, perhaps an attempt should be made to at least partially educate him...

Yes, Mr Smith, there are African Americans in Aikido.

First of all, if you consider the family of closely related aiki arts to be forms of Aikido, or Aikido as a form of one of them, then we have to start with Moses Powell Sensei. He calls his style Sanuces Ryu but there isn't anything in the style which an Aikido person with a bit of background in karate wouldn't recognize. This man is a living legend and ran a school in New York City for many years back in the seventies. His style did not suffer from any "lack of practicality" so to speak. Most of his students were African American so I think he is very significant in that he trained more African Americans in aiki than any other teacher has. Many run schools around the country today.

In Aikido proper, it is an important fact to know that THE senior American in Aikido, on the mainland, ( by rank anyway) is Amos Parker Sensei at 8th Dan in the Yoshinkan System, an African American. It is perhaps telling that 90% of Aikido students if polled wouldn't know that. Steve Miranda, who regularly posts on the forums is a student of Parker Sensei.

Of course, we should mention that one of the senior teachers of Aikido in the states is an African American female, Lorraine DiAnne Sensei. She is a senior student of Chiba Sensei and trained in Japan for a number of years. In fact there is a notice popping up on the homepage of Aikweb advertising one of her seminars...

If one buys Aikido videos it is impossible not to have encounetered Donovan Waite Sensei's video on Ukemi. He is one of Yamada Sensei's senior students.

I have a friend, Teddy Wilson Sensei, whom I met at the first Aiki Expo... he is an African American Sensei who teaches the Japanese martial art of Aikido in Istanbul, Turkey... true globalization at work...

Anf of course, even if you have never heard of any of these prominent African American Aikido pioneers, any Aikido student worth his salt knows of Ron Tisdale... I mean, where have you been? Ron is internationally known through his cogent posts on all Aikido related forums and has, as you may have noted, already contributed one here.

Anyway, no one be offended if I left someone important off the list here (which I am sure I did) I wrote it totally off the top of my head and didn't even look in the Aiki Encyclopedia to refresh my memory...

Thank goodness. A breath of fresh air amongst the intelluctually stifling, closed-mindedness of liberals.

For the love of God, not everyone is integrated yet folks. Maybe it was a sincere question. Didn't you see "Million Dollar Baby?"

Any of you with a negative response can chock it up as not only a wasted opportunity at improved race-relations, but also as an example of not being the understanding, welcoming person that every white person is expected to be to blacks.

If this guy hasn't been exposed to the "right" thinking, why would you expect it?

Edwin Neal
01-31-2006, 05:19 PM
"Thank goodness. A breath of fresh air amongst the intelluctually stifling, closed-mindedness of liberals."

Jean i think that has been 'spun' 180 degrees!!!
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal

Adam Alexander
01-31-2006, 05:40 PM
"Thank goodness. A breath of fresh air amongst the intelluctually stifling, closed-mindedness of liberals."

Jean i think that has been 'spun' 180 degrees!!!
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal


Agreed. It's a shame that a group of people hijacked the word.

Ron Tisdale
02-01-2006, 08:44 AM
Any of you with a negative response can chock it up as not only a wasted opportunity at improved race-relations, but also as an example of not being the understanding, welcoming person that every white person is expected to be to blacks.

BS. Sometimes tough love is where it's at (as a conservative, you should be familiar with that one). I don't expect every white person to be understanding or welcoming. Experience has taught me not to set my goals that high. Experience has also taught me not to expect that from every black, yellow, or brown person either. And please don't misunderstand me...the vast majority of my cross-cultural experiences of any type are positive these days...overwhelmingly so. But that doesn't vitiate the experiences I have had (and still have on occation) that run counter to the improvements I see today.

I do expect a modicum of 'live and let live' at the *very* least, and hope for some amount of mutual respect if possible. The fact is, the blatant ignorance shown in the post is not nearly as common today as it once was. The reason it's not as common is because people like myself don't have to swallow it anymore. We can speak up, forcefully, immediately, and without equivocation. And we will continue to do so.

If some white male somewhere feels put upon by that...get used to it. Black folk are here to stay.

Best,
Ron

Adam Alexander
02-01-2006, 05:14 PM
BS. Sometimes tough love is where it's at (as a conservative, you should be familiar with that one). I don't expect every white person to be understanding or welcoming. Experience has taught me not to set my goals that high. Experience has also taught me not to expect that from every black, yellow, or brown person either. And please don't misunderstand me...the vast majority of my cross-cultural experiences of any type are positive these days...overwhelmingly so. But that doesn't vitiate the experiences I have had (and still have on occation) that run counter to the improvements I see today.

I do expect a modicum of 'live and let live' at the *very* least, and hope for some amount of mutual respect if possible. The fact is, the blatant ignorance shown in the post is not nearly as common today as it once was. The reason it's not as common is because people like myself don't have to swallow it anymore. We can speak up, forcefully, immediately, and without equivocation. And we will continue to do so.

If some white male somewhere feels put upon by that...get used to it. Black folk are here to stay.

Best,
Ron

Then you responded that way because you believed it was the most effective way to educate the offender about racial sensitivity?

Okay. However, I think it has more to do with your sensitivity than his lack of. In any case, that's not for me to deal with.

Perhaps the reason that people aren't as racially insensitive as they used to be has less to do with you and others "not taking it" and more to do (atleast in my life) with interaction.

As a person who once had a woman accuse me of not waiting on her first because she was black (couldn't possibly be because she was standing five feet out of line and no-one even knew she was there). "Not taking it" in the wrong situation only breeds more problems: It's Aikido: Someone attacks and you sidestep and apply technique--everyone comes out better. However, when you meet force with force--such as might be the case here--no one gains.

On the last statement of "feeling put upon," the issue isn't black folk here to stay, the issue is an out of context attack.

And really, if you read about the Chicago 7, Union 8, the (if I recall the names correctly) groups associated with them and the era, it wasn't about (as I once would of agreed with you) black folks not taking it. It was about white folks recognizing that racism is wrong in most contexts. (It's like Americans thinking it was Washington who won the war rather than recognizing he was crushed had it not been for the French.)

As has been remarked on the time: How could Johnson support racism when he was pointing his finger at other countries for human rights violations?

Even in our wildest dreams it wasn't the threat of people not taking it anymore that caused the change. It was a culture of increased acceptance that changed this country, the eyes of America being opened to what was happening.

Goodness. Just thirty years earlier, MacArthur and Co. was killing our own people during the Great Depression (Vets striking for early payoff).

In any case I'd say your original post only served to reinforce stereotypes. It's too bad. Larry Elder would be disappointed.

Qatana
02-01-2006, 07:19 PM
As I recall, most of the Chicago 7 were either white or Jewish.

Ron Tisdale
02-02-2006, 08:40 AM
Jean and Paige,

While I respect your opinions, I completely disagree. This isn't the place for a history lesson, and I'm not the best person to give it anyway. I can only go on what I know, and what I believe to be the best way to proceed.

Youth is no excuse. Isolation is no excuse (especially with cable, the internet, and public libraries). And when good men are silent, bad things happen. I may not be all that good...but I will speak up when I feel it is warrented. The aikido I have learned is about entering. And that's what I will continue to do.

As far as Larry Elder is concerned...I'm sure he would appreciate your speaking for him ;) Blacks are not a monolith...I have a right to my opinion as he has to his. If you think you can shame someone into changing their mind by referencing him...you've got a ways to go.

Last, nothing in my post was an attack, or out of context. If you don't get that...so be it. Sensitivity? Hmmm, I remember a certain group of posts you wrote some time ago that were just bursting with sensitivity. ;) I think I'll find another teacher for that, thanks.

Best,
Ron

aikigirl10
02-02-2006, 10:15 AM
Sensitivity? Hmmm, I remember a certain group of posts you wrote some time ago that were just bursting with sensitivity. ;)

Are you talking about the Catholic Aikido thread? Or are you even talking about me?

If so, the situations are very different.

James made no attack toward you, he simply asked a very stupid question that was directed towards black people.

In the Catholic Aikido thread, Monty Collier made claims about how Catholicism was wrong and unjustified, and yes i think that calls for some sensitivity.

If James had said "Black people can't do Aikido, they are black and aikido is for white people" Then i would be right there backing you up becaue i think something like that could be considered an attack and I'm very much against racism. However that's not what he said.

I really don't understand why you would consider this a big deal Ron. Even if James was a racist, it would be what he wanted for you to give him a reaction.

*Paige*

Ron Tisdale
02-02-2006, 10:32 AM
No, that particular comment was for Jean, based on comments made here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=120007#post120007

There are several statements in this post and others in that thread that make me quite uncomfortable (of course, keeping me comfortable isn't Jean's concern, and shouldn't be).

I personally believe that the comment James made wasn't an 'attack' period. And I didn't treat it as an attack. I treated it as a stupid statement from a person displaying a great deal of ignorance. I always consider ignorance around racial issues a big deal. I have been physically asaulted based on just such ignorance. By groups of people...not just individuals. Perhaps if someone had addressed that ignorance before it grew into violence, I wouldn't have had to deal with that.

But most people not in a similar position may not get that. Oh well.

Best,
Ron

MattRice
02-02-2006, 10:43 AM
I think it's a big deal. People saying 'ill advised' or 'ignorant' things in public shows you what is there underneath. I don't think it matters much if its ignorance, lack of maturity or hate that spawns such nonsense. If Ron (or anyone) let's that slide, then James doesn't get educated on this issue: the problem continues on. Maybe he'll be a different person 10-20 years down the road because he got smacked in a public form, maybe not.

Anyway, I'm a white guy, my opinion of what Ron should or shouldn't consider a big deal on this topic is unimportant, BUT I think it is important to speak up when ignorance is boldly displayed.

Fred Little
02-02-2006, 11:13 AM
As I recall, most of the Chicago 7 were either white or Jewish.

That is correct as far as it goes. But before they were the Chicago Seven, they were the Chicago Eight. While a number of the defendants engaged in political theater that mocked the legitimacy and decorum of the courtroom, it was Bobby Seale of the Black Panther Party who was bound and gagged at the defendants table.

It appears that Judge Hoffman, a former law partner of the infamous Mayor Richard Daley, found Mr. Seale's outbursts characterizing him as a racist, fascist pig more offensive than Mr. Hoffman's remark that ""you are a disgrace to the Jews. You would have served Hitler better."

Seale's case was severed from that of the other defendants, at which point the Chicago Eight became known as the Chicago Seven.

Although Seale was sentenced to four years for contempt of court, his contempt conviction, like that of the other defendants, was overturned on appeal and the US Government opted not to retry the charges.

In the "truth is stranger than fiction" addendum, it should be noted that addition to his autobiography, Seale is also the author of Bobby Seale: Hickory & Mesquite Recipes

Ex-Panther David Hilliard and singer Al Green have also independently developed a product suitable for use with Seale's cookbook, "Burn Baby Burn: A Taste of the Sixties Revolutionary Hot Sauce," the proceeds of which go to benefit the Huey P. Newton Foundation.

FL

Qatana
02-02-2006, 11:42 AM
Thanks Fred. I couldn't remember if Bobby Seale was the seventh or eighth member, but I DO remember the Trial! Course I was a Junior Revolutionary at the time!

Matt Molloy
02-02-2006, 01:03 PM
I personally believe that the comment James made wasn't an 'attack' period. And I didn't treat it as an attack. I treated it as a stupid statement from a person displaying a great deal of ignorance. I always consider ignorance around racial issues a big deal. I have been physically asaulted based on just such ignorance. By groups of people...not just individuals. Perhaps if someone had addressed that ignorance before it grew into violence, I wouldn't have had to deal with that.

But most people not in a similar position may not get that. Oh well.

Best,
Ron

Having been in a similar position myself when younger (being mixed ethnicity* - Indian/European - but nowadays not obviously so) I'd agree that any kind of racism needs to be nipped in the bud and quick.

Once that kind of behaviour and attitude becomes normal for the person then it is doubly hard to convince them that it's stupid, ignorant and harmful as they tend to think that, since nobody mentioned it up to now, there can't be a problem with their behaviour.

My personal situation tends nowadays towards the surreal as, looking like an English skinhead (as I do these days), I tend to get racist idiots being a little unguarded in their comments when around me and looking a tad surprised when they get a mouthful, or more, back.

I hope that James' comment was merely the result of bad phrasing and not a result of an underlying problem. If there is a problem then I hope that he can overcome it whilst he's still young.

As for Jean's comment,

it wasn't about (as I once would of agreed with you) black folks not taking it. It was about white folks recognizing that racism is wrong in most contexts.

So everyone just waited around till the white folks "got it" did they?

I don't think so.

and,

Most contexts?!?

Are you implying that there is a context where racism is right?

I do hope not.

Cheers,

Matt.

*Ethnicity rather than race. The "race" is humanity.

Ron Tisdale
02-02-2006, 01:33 PM
*Ethnicity rather than race. The "race" is humanity

Bingo. My bad...I don't think the 'race' word is appropriate either.

Best,
Ron

Matt Molloy
02-02-2006, 01:41 PM
Bingo. My bad...I don't think the 'race' word is appropriate either.

Best,
Ron

Sorry Ron,

I certainly didn't mean this as a criticism of yourself. It's just a personal thing that I'm always pushing.

Best to you,

Matt.

Ron Tisdale
02-02-2006, 02:13 PM
Not at all. It's a good point. Hey, I'm willing to learn, I just insist on good teachers... ;)

Best,
Ron

MikeLogan
02-02-2006, 02:23 PM
Are you implying that there is a context where racism is right?

I do hope not.

*Ethnicity rather than race. The "race" is humanity.

Thanks for pointing this one out, though I wonder if this was explained by his american revolution analogy as a means of explaining the "thoughts of those times".

Or that's me being hopeful and optimistic until I need to be otherwise.

Perfect posting Ron.
Jean, no cookie for you. (liberal close-mindedness indeed)

And as for james, not all of his posts were this stupid. He is a young dude. Looking at it further, I can see the sarcasm, but as a warning I'll tender that writing sarcasm is tough, because one can't observe the tone and nuance present in speaking first hand.

Have a good weekend all

James Davis
02-02-2006, 04:26 PM
*Ethnicity rather than race. The "race" is humanity.

Yeah, but saying that we have to end ethnicityism is too much of a tongue twister for me! :p

George S. Ledyard
02-02-2006, 04:59 PM
Current research would indicate that as human animals we are basically hard wired to recognize approximately 40 or so individuals as being from within our group. Everybody else is outside. This comes from hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in which we existed in hunter gatherer groups of around that many.

In other words we are programmed to be "racist' on some level... It is completely natural for people to focus on whatever differences they perceive and in terms of evolutionary history that would have represented a threat so we inherit this not so admirable trait. One only has to look around at any human social group to see this in action...

In Ireland and Bosnia you could see people slaughtering each other who exhibit no discernable difference from the standpoint of an outsider. Remember High School? Don't be that kid who was different... it could be a school of all white kids, speaking an identical version of the language, sharing the same values and going to the same churches and the one who is smarter is ostracized. Don't be the "dip" in your school or your four years are hell...

There isn't a culture in the world where there isn't racism... Look at France... American blacks found France to be welcoming and open compared to the states, yet when Algeria fell, their own white colonists were terribly discriminated against when they tried to return to their mother country...

The tendency to look for and find differences is innate in human beings. The only way to keep that from becoming discriminatory racism is by a) constantly reinforcing our laws which disallow discrimination based on race, culture, sex, sexual preference etc and b) working to maintain as much diversity as possible.

One of the biggest changes in race relations came as a result of WWI, WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam. Initially, the airmen known as the Tuskegee Airmen were purposely kept out of combat by a military in which Southerners held the greatest influence. When they were finally deployed to fly fighter cover over Germany, the bomber pilots resisted having the Black flyers assigned to their units for cover until it became apparent that the bombing units protected by the Black fighter pilots were coming back safely in greater numbers. By the end of the bombing campaign, everyone wanted the Tuskegee airmen flying cover for them.

By the time you come to Viet Nam, units were completely integrated. The guy watching your back could be any color and any ethnicity. Attitudes changed rapidly as the result of this kind of exposure to people previously perceived as "different".

Athletics is extremely important in this respect... not the NBA / NFL professional level athletics, but the Pop Warner, Pee Wee Hockey, Youth Soccer level athletics. Kids from diverse playing on the same teams brings people together and starts to erase the perception of difference.

Shared experience is the single most important element in changing the perception of "difference". But there also needs to be that legal underpinning coupled with educational reinforcement of the values of equality. We need to remember this every time an issue comes up involving some over reaction of "political correctness". Political correctness is just a formalized set of attitudes meant to correct an imbalance that has existed for thousands of years. It seems silly at times but it is a society's way of arriving at "what should our values be?' when they aren't sure yet. There's over reaction, then counter reaction, and eventually we reach a new equilibrium in which we are more confident in what our values are. This process happens over and over and needs to evolve continuously.

The Blacks who have been the targets of discrimination for hundreds of years are just as capable of racism against Koreans or Jews as anyone... the Mexican illegals who come to the States will discriminate against the other Mexican illegals that come here who have more apparent Native ethnic makeup. In Brazil, where the ethnic makeup is extremely heterogeneous, the lighter skinned folks discriminate against the darker skinned folks. In Ghana, where an effort has been made to encourage an "Israel" style return of American Blacks to their homeland, the natives discriminate against the returnees because they are "different". Only education and direct experience with peoples of other ethnicities and cultures will reduce this... it is our not very admirable trait as a human species. It may have had survival value at some point in the past but it could be the cause of downfall if we don't get a handle on it at some point.

aikigirl10
02-02-2006, 05:28 PM
Yeah, but saying that we have to end ethnicityism is too much of a tongue twister for me! :p

lol i agree.

Adam Alexander
02-02-2006, 06:43 PM
Jean and Paige,

While I respect your opinions, I completely disagree. This isn't the place for a history lesson, and I'm not the best person to give it anyway. I can only go on what I know, and what I believe to be the best way to proceed.

Youth is no excuse. Isolation is no excuse (especially with cable, the internet, and public libraries). And when good men are silent, bad things happen. I may not be all that good...but I will speak up when I feel it is warrented. The aikido I have learned is about entering. And that's what I will continue to do.

As far as Larry Elder is concerned...I'm sure he would appreciate your speaking for him ;) Blacks are not a monolith...I have a right to my opinion as he has to his. If you think you can shame someone into changing their mind by referencing him...you've got a ways to go.

Last, nothing in my post was an attack, or out of context. If you don't get that...so be it. Sensitivity? Hmmm, I remember a certain group of posts you wrote some time ago that were just bursting with sensitivity. ;) I think I'll find another teacher for that, thanks.

Best,
Ron

Come on, Ron!

I was right there with you until you accused me of attempting to shame you (I think that's what you're saying). Total misinterpretation. I was bouncing a joke of your joke about me being conservative.

On the sensitivity. I'm sure no-one would be hard-pressed to find a post or two where I threw a temper-tantrum. However, not there or in the chain of similar posts that involved Neil.

That's just an example of me throwing my hands up:)


On the Chicago Seven (to the person who asked). Although they were whites and Jews (for all I can remember they might be white Jews:)) They went to Chicago (as I recall) to stage protests in the form of restaurant sit-ins at privately owned segregated establishments (as I recall it was more a specific location that was rather notorious).

They'd go in as a pair of whites, and then a black or two would come in and sit down.

By the end of the night, because the other white patrons demanded the inter-racial folks be served, and the police wouldn't arrest them, they were served.

Also, that group (which I think four of them were a part fo the Union 8) was involved with a bunch of anti-war groups. Basically, the black-equality/anti-war movement was pretty much combined for maximum effect.

chris w
02-02-2006, 07:28 PM
Athletics is extremely important in this respect... not the NBA / NFL professional level athletics, but the Pop Warner, Pee Wee Hockey, Youth Soccer level athletics. Kids from diverse playing on the same teams brings people together and starts to erase the perception of difference.

i think that there a lot of passive racists in this country, and some of them are parents. so even if kids of different ethnic backgrounds can play together on the field, ice or playground, they are still being influenced by the attitudes of their parents. and they grow up holding onto the same prejudices. i think james smith might be an example of this. i would be willing to bet that he doesn't think of himself as hateful or racist, but he might be. just like a lot of your friends and neighbors.

Qatana
02-02-2006, 07:43 PM
Jean I don't know where you got that information. here's wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Seven

As to "white jews", in some parts of this country white people do not consider Jews as white.Since I am of 100% non-European descent I consider myself not white.YMMV

Adam Alexander
02-03-2006, 04:40 PM
Jean I don't know where you got that information. here's wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Seven

As to "white jews", in some parts of this country white people do not consider Jews as white.Since I am of 100% non-European descent I consider myself not white.YMMV


A couple/few of the seven were involved in what a cited just prior to the DNC. You've got me: I jumbled the occurences.

However, the original point, the development of the movement involved whites, etc.

If you're interested, book was called, fittingly, "Direct action : radical pacifism from the Union Eight to the Chicago Seven" by James Tracy.

I guess it's an example of modern-day Thoreau-esque foolishness.

On white-jews...Who cares? You probably care as much about whether I consider myself "Native-American" or white. It just doesn't matter.

Racial sensitivity is for racists.

Matt Molloy
02-04-2006, 04:33 AM
Yeah, but saying that we have to end ethnicityism is too much of a tongue twister for me! :p

Agreed. I generally just say that we should end bigotry, stupidity, ignorance, intolerance and prejudice.

Tall order but I don't remember anyone saying that this life would be easy. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

Matt Molloy
02-04-2006, 04:40 AM
Not at all. It's a good point. Hey, I'm willing to learn, I just insist on good teachers... ;)

Best,
Ron


*Not Worthy Bow.* (Aikiweb doesn't have this smilie.)

;)

:D

Cheers,

Matt. :cool:

Dirk Hanss
02-06-2006, 04:59 AM
As I recall, most of the Chicago 7 were either white or Jewish.

1st. Sorry all for my ignorance, but I always thought, Jewish are (mostly) white. If not, which colour do they have? All I have met or seen on television were as pale as I am.

2nd "Race and Aikido"
I know, there aikido styles, which practice competion, but races? This is not Formula 1!

Well back to more serious topics, AFAIK the current status of genetics and ethnicl science is, that all human beings are from African origin, possibly another origin in Asia. So yes there are many prejudices - and I share many. I thought, I did not, but when I went through a park at midnight passing a group of Turkish men, or when I went from Manhattan to JFK by tube and suddenly I saw, I was the only pale person left, looking in all the dark faces - yes also brown, but dark means her probably only tired from work, etc. but to me it looked like anger - yes I knew they are all there. But is it really a question of ethnical differences? They do not have to be black, yellow, brown or red - sorry I do not know the politically correct phrases, they change too frequently - it is ogften enough sufficient if the are small or tall (fat?), have a scar or a tattoo, dress differently or otherwise look diffrent from the people you meet day by day.

Unfortunately I could not find the original post. Post 1 starts already quoting George Ledyard.

There are many ethnical questions in aikido.
Some (Japanese) shihan told they were aked frquently, if aikido is much easier for Asian people than for European, and they used to reply "No, it is the same pain for them as for you and they have to work as hard as you to become proficient".

One Japanese shihan recently raised the question if there is a reason, why his German student have much more knee problems (even need meniscus oprations) than what he knows from Japan.
Is it just because the get used too late to seiza, is it that Japanese in general have shorter legs, and thus having better angles for practice? Or is the reason simply that most Geerman play football (soccer) or similar sports in their youth and come to aikido already with spoiled knees?


Now it is getting too much for someone ignorant like me. There is still much to say, but it difficult to keep things in order, not getting sarcastic. And I am not a better person than anybody. I have lots of prejudices, some are funny, some aren't. And I do have silly questions, hopefully I do not publish the worst of them in a public forum.

Kind regards

Dirk

Qatana
02-06-2006, 10:44 AM
Dirk, the "short" answer is- "white" implies European descent. While there are Jews who settled in Europe hundreds of years ago, they came from the Middle east and migrated north over a period of time.So Ethnically we are entirely different from the people who evolved in Europe.
My family came from Russia and Persia, so I am not European.I may be extremely fair skinned, but I don't consider myself "white", just as my best friend, who has "African" features and paler skin than me doesn't consider herself "black".

Somehow we fear those who don't remind us of ourselves, I think. However, sometimes we also fear those who DO remind us of ourselves...

Counsel
02-07-2006, 11:48 AM
And when good men are silent, bad things happen. I may not be all that good...but I will speak up when I feel it is warrented.


I agree with you and Jean that it is RIGHT to act/speak up. I think Jean and I are questioning the method / technique you used...

Why use a Gedan position (hand position low) when a Jodan position (hand position high) may provide a better result? Neither may be wrong, but the outcome may be different nonetheless...

I think many (perhaps due to ignorance or their life experience) who ask a question or make a statement 'like this' may find it easier to 'swallow the truth' if the answer/response is delivered with a 'dose of sugar' rather than a 'critical eye.'

However, each situation needs to be dealt with 'on its own.'

C

There is ONE race -- the Human Race. The need to break people into smaller, less unified, units is due to our 'need' to be a part of something we 'sympathize with' when there are 'others' that we 'don't agree with.' Why not just understand our differences and revel in them?

Dirk Hanss
02-08-2006, 08:42 AM
Dirk, the "short" answer is- "white" implies European descent. While there are Jews who settled in Europe hundreds of years ago, they came from the Middle east and migrated north over a period of time.So Ethnically we are entirely different from the people who evolved in Europe.
My family came from Russia and Persia, so I am not European.I may be extremely fair skinned, but I don't consider myself "white", just as my best friend, who has "African" features and paler skin than me doesn't consider herself "black".

Somehow we fear those who don't remind us of ourselves, I think. However, sometimes we also fear those who DO remind us of ourselves...
Hi Jo,
European descent? LOL :D
I totally feel and look European and the best source I have about my forefathers is a little book from my grandparents about the genealogical tree from the time of their marriage (showing this nice "Nazi" emblem.
So some of my forefathers come from Hungary (Hun descent? Asian?) some were called "Kriechenbaum" or "Griechenbaum" - no proof, but could be Jewish. A part of my wife's family comes from Southern Italy, where Trojans (European or Asian?) settled and Phoenician, which was occupied by Turkish and other Arabs for centuries. Nearly half of the Iberian population are Moor descents, even if they call themselves Andalusian (Germanic tribe).
Unless a few pure Celtics and Norwegians Icelandic (Vikings), who can say that he is really European descent?

Could be a long discussion, but maybe in another thread.

Cheers Dirk

Matt Molloy
02-08-2006, 09:41 AM
Alright, that's it.

I'm descended of a small lump of primordial slime that got ideas above it's station! Beat that lineage. :D

Of course there were a few stages in between then and now. ;)

Cheers,

Matt.

100% Mongrel

Lorien Lowe
02-08-2006, 12:06 PM
One of the pediatricians at work had a case a couple of years back where a a baby was born with sickle-cell anemia from two blond, blue-eyed parents. Neither knew of any ancestry other than 'white,' but it was there none the less.

We're all mutts, if we look far enough back.

-LK

Ron Tisdale
02-08-2006, 12:41 PM
Hi James T,

I got that the method was being questioned, and you have every right to question it. I also have every right to ignore the question, give an answer you don't like, or whatever. Some times one lump of sugar is good, some times two...sometimes you just get the lump, no sugar. 'James' got the lump. I don't feel bad about it at all. I simply disagree on what was called for, and don't buy your arguements to the contrary. End of story, as far as I'm concerned.

Best,
Ron

Counsel
02-08-2006, 11:10 PM
Ron:

I'm laughing but that is okay...

I'm just thinking Aikido is a little more than handing out 'lumps.'

I didn't get a lump, but we agree on something -- you are welcome to your opinion.

I just wonder why I sense you are upset about the issue. Why so short?

:)

Naw, forget it... I'll just take my lump.

:)

C

Counsel
02-08-2006, 11:41 PM
Ron:
I'll just take my lump.


I thought about the post for a while. Let me address it, hopefully, in a better manner.....

I laughed after reading your post. Your opinion is yours, mine is mine. If I may ask a questions, "Why did I get a lump?" :D

We do agree on something -- everyone is welcome to their own opinion.

I get the feeling (through your use of words) that you are upset about the issue. And yes, it is okay to be upset.

I'm just thinking Aikido is a little more than handing out 'lumps.' To me, it is about understanding techniques and when to use them. It is about understanding and not allowing 'your opponent' to control your actions..

If you'll note, my reply did say "each situation needs to be dealt with 'on its own.'" You know, sometimes you need to give a lump... Perhaps you just glanced over that statement or feel very strongly on the issue...

Is there a reason your reply is worded quite like it is or is that just your personality. The only reason I left the previous statement in here was to show you how a response can make someone 'want to listen' to what you have to say or 'not want to listen' to what you have to say...

Perhaps you don't care if 'someone' listens... I can understand that, but (you know it was coming didn't you?) if you don't care, why do you hand out lumps in the first place?

I think we can agree, we don't need to be upset because someone disagrees with us or is pointing out a different method or technique. I don't know you so I will phrase it this way, "I looked at your blog and it appears as if you take 'instruction' on the mat seriously." If someone shows you a new twist to an old technique, do you listen or are you short with them? Seems like we can all learn to view things in a different light.

Again...sometimes we have to dish out lumps.

But, maybe we could 'slow down' and only hand out lumps (like getting into fights) when we fail with our attempt to reason and to discuss the issue.

No need to hand out 'lumps' needlessly... But, if you want to, go ahead... I can handle it. :D

Just my two cents... ;)

Ron Tisdale
02-09-2006, 08:06 AM
Hi James,

The lump wasn't for you, it was for the psudo 'James', which is why I put his name in quotes. In case you missed it, he wasn't posting under his real name, which is a clear violation of aikiweb rules.

I just wonder why I sense you are upset about the issue. Why so short?

I didn't feel that I was short, and I'm not particularly upset (certainly not with you). 'James' (psudo 'James' again) ticked me off for about a minute, and statements like the one he made will always tick me off for about a minute. In the meantime, I go about my life dealing with keiko, a father with alzheimers, a mother with diabetes (and going a little nuts dealing with my father), work, a girlfriend and all the other things in life. So if I get a little short...just chalk it up to a busy life, and a small(?) personality disorder :).

The fact is, sometimes I cut people A LOT of slack over "racial" / "background" issues. Pretty much every day...that just goes with being a minority here in the states.

So please don't think I'm upset with you or anyone who disagrees with me just because they disagree. To me, that seems like an attempt to blame me for 'James''s ignorance...attempting to phrase the problem in a way that draws attention to the one highlighting the issue...rather than dealing with the ignorance itself.

Best,
Ron (hope this post was 'long' enough:))

Ron Tisdale
02-09-2006, 08:09 AM
Oh, as far as 'your' aikido...nothing wrong with that. Please understand though...others might look at it little differently, and I tend to choose my teachers carefully, as I said in an earlier post.
;)
Best,
Ron

Counsel
02-09-2006, 11:05 AM
Hi James,

...(hope this post was 'long' enough:))

Not nearly long enough for the assumption I made... :freaky:

My apologies...

Sometimes 'God' reaches down and just touches us on the shoulder to remind us ...

This time, I get to thank you for the reminder. Sometimes I just need to reflect (think) before posting (acting). Don't we all...

As to 'race'... Some truths are self-evident as I have said before (http://wordpress.pocosin.com/?p=142).

Counsel

Ron Tisdale
02-09-2006, 01:18 PM
No worries. Have a nice day.

Ron

James Smithe
02-10-2006, 07:39 PM
Ron what race are you? I have to confirm something.

Edwin Neal
02-10-2006, 08:04 PM
now that is an irimi...

Ron Tisdale
02-13-2006, 07:39 AM
Mario, what race are you? I take it that this is 'James' back on the board again. If so, welcome back...hope you've learned something.

I am African American, sometimes called Black. Gotta lotta stuff floating around in my private gene pool though...

Best,
Ron

Mark Freeman
02-13-2006, 08:08 AM
I am African American, sometimes called Black. Gotta lotta stuff floating around in my private gene pool though...

Not quite so private now Ron ;)

Ron Tisdale
02-13-2006, 09:38 AM
Ooops, was that too much information?

One grandmother had blue eyes, one great grandfather had two families...one black the other white. Go figure... A lot of Native American blood on both sides as well.

Best,
Ron

Mark Freeman
02-13-2006, 11:48 AM
[QUOTE=Ron Tisdale]One grandmother had blue eyes, one great grandfather had two families...one black the other white. Go figure... A lot of Native American blood on both sides as well. /QUOTE]

Ron, I bet if you looked at you genes under a microscope you'd probably see a rainbow! :)

Cheers
Mark