Ki and Technique...

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[Ascendedskater25]

I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

[SeiserL]

Extending energy with honest and genuine intent and intensity benefits all you do.
Yes, IMHO, it is true.

[Kevin Leavitt]

As all topics of Ki wil have a million opinions...here is one.

IMHO, you cannot correctly perform the "technique" without the application of KI.

Viewing KI as a separate and distinct phenomenon from the physical aspects of practice will cause you issues...if not physically, then mentally in the appication and understanding of aikido and martial arts in general.

I personally leave my KI stuff as experiential. That is, I experience it as I learn and grow, do not seek to apply it, harness it, or cultivate it directly.

To me it becomes one of those Koan things in zen. If you seek it directly...it will escape you just as you find it.

Although as you state...a good Kiai certainly never hurt and is, IMHO, a verbal/physical manifestation of KI that can focus your energy and strength when needed!

[bratzo_barrena]

My two cents,
Ki is not something in itself, Ki is a consecuence, an state.
A consecuence of focusing body, mind and spirit (intention/will) to achieve certain goal. In whatever field you are, not only aikido, in any sport or activity, for that matter, you can achieve ki.
So ki is an state in which your body, your senses, mind, will, all of what you are is aimed to achieve certain goal.
For example, a heavyweight lifter, when he is going to lift the weight, he aligns his body in the optimal position for that purpose, also concentrates his mind in lifting the weight, his will/intention is to lift that weight, so he generates this "supernatural" stength/power to lift that weight. But in reality is not supernatural, and is not magic.
Take the same heavyweight lifter, trying to lift the same weight, but this time have him standing in an awkward position, he will not be able to lift the same weight, beacuse his body is not properly aligned, even though his mind and will are focused to lifting the weight.
So, Ki is a state in which a person is focusing all what he/she (body/mind/spirit/will/intention) is to achieve certain goal in any activity in life.
But ki is not a supernatural energy, all migthty power, that one can feel and/or project at will, Jedi style, that's a lot of bullshit.
Ki cannot be measured, felt, projected or otherwise in itself because is not something in itself, it is just an state.
Like love, anger, happinness, etc. They are states, they exist, but are states. You can't measure love or anger, in themselves, or happines in itself, but you can understand love or hate by its phisical manifestation (like a hug or a kiss or a punch), and what you can measure is the physical manifestations of love or anger, i.e. the strengh of a hug, the duration of a kiss, the force of the punch. In the same way you can measure the physical manifestations of ki, in the heavyweight lifter example, would be the force generated to lift the weight.
So ki is an state, a consecuence, not a supernatural force. Also Ki has physical limitations.
Using the same heavyweight lifter example, he alings his body, focuses his mind, and his will to..... lift train above his head. Well, he just wont be able to do it.
So ki is not unique property of aikidokas, everybody has benn in the ki state, some time, even without knowing.
Ki is an state, an unavopidable consecuence of just doing things right.
I tryed to be as clear as possible, but english is not my native languaje

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral FL

[malc anderson]

Hi Ya BB, Do you practice Meditation? Malc
“ It is the supreme state of Aikido to be one with the Spirit of the Universe. For this reason it is called the Budo of Unification and Oneness”.M.Ueshiba

[Josh Reyer]

"Ki" essentially means "energy". It is used idiomatically in martial arts. It has not weathered translation into the English idiom very well. Do research on ki and qi in martial arts, learn the language if you can, and try to crack the idiom.

The same goes for "kokyu" as well.

Good luck...

[Lyle Bogin]

I still cannot decide if Ki is an endless path or a bottomless pit.

[eyrie]

Well Lyle, do you think you have ki? If you don't think you do, why not? If you think you do, why?

[malc anderson]

Hi ya L.B, I read your thread, and it reminded me of a saying in the ancient Chinese book ‘The Tao Te Ching’
No14
Look and it can’t be seen,
Listen and it can’t be heard,
Reach and it can’t be grasped.

Above it isn’t bright,
Below it isn’t dark.
Seamless, unnameable,
It returns to the realm of nothing. Form that includes all forms,
Image without an image, subtle, beyond all conception.

Approach it and there is no beginning;
Follow it and there is no end.
You can’t know it, but you can be it, at ease in your life.
Just realize where you come from;
This is the essence of wisdom.

It’s hard to stand in the void, but it’s not empty, it’s just you must learn to be aware in a different way, Just Meditate every day, 1hour is a minimum. Read ‘The Way of Peace’, O’Sensei wrote it for You, what a great teacher he was;

107
The Divine is not something high above us. It is in heaven, it is in earth, it is inside of us.
108
Unite yourself to the cosmos, and the thought of transcendence will disappear. Transcendence belongs to the profane world. When all trace of transcendence vanishes, the true person - the Divine Being - is manifest. Empty yourself and let the Divine function.
109
You cannot see or touch the Divine with your gross senses. The Divine is within you, not somewhere else. Unite yourself to the Divine, and you will be able to perceive gods wherever you are, but do not try to grasp or cling to them.
All the best Malc

[ian]

Ki and shouting is not the same. However I would certainly say that vocalisation can help to provide focus in generating more power, with timing, and also with disorientating the enemy. I find I use it involuntarily within weapon work since often very urgent and decisive moves with perfect timing are required.

Ki is a very complex subject (covered in many other threads). Simply put it is 'energy' which you can accumulate, and then realse (as jing) through correct posture, coordination and movement. I'm not sure if I believe in the mythology, but it is a good model of how to improve your technique and your health so that you can perform effectively.

[Larry Cuvin]

James Webb wrote:

I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

Hi James,
I'm using your term "using Ki" as extending Ki. A definite yes on adding potential on any technique or for anything we do in our life. I have been a student of Ki Aikido for just a year and a half now and the things that I learn on every Ki class we never ceases to amaze me. Extending Ki when you perform anything allows you to perform at your full potential.

As far as "Kiai" is concerned, we normally do not do this during practice but in my opinion, it adds to your focus and therefore adds energy towards the technique.

[malc anderson]

Hi ya I.D, This is the spiritual part to this web site but it seems there are not many Aikidokas who have any positive ideas about O’Sensei’s Aikido(spiritual side) and seem like yourself to believe it all to be silly stories (myths). One thing is definite that the great man did not write works like ‘The Way of Peace ‘ because he was bored one day or wanted to play a joke. I can understand that most people come to Aikido like any martial art to basically learn to ‘kick ass’, but then to read/be told that the founder was ‘into that mystical stuff’ would not be understood.
I come from a different angle I have been practicing RajYoga for 30yrs and Tai Chi for 10yrs, and come to this site to see if anymore works of the great man have been found/translated as teachers like O’Sensei can inspire followers of ‘the way’ and help us to practice harder our meditation techniques. It is a shame that meditation has so many different types/styles and money making people that have jumped on the band wagon. We now have chanting, shaved heads, living in caves, giving up sex, practicing detachment, whale music, Yoga mats, staring at candles, standing on one leg, hugging trees and all the new age stuff, it seems on the outside like a load of rubbish and most of it is, but when the Founder tells us to use the Pranayarma in ‘The Way of Peace, he pointed out the most commonly used REAL technique of meditation.
There is an experience of Peace/Love in side every human being and it is there, waiting to be tapped into. It is hard to clear our head of all the thoughts that constantly chatter away in our every day but it’s only when we do this that we can be come aware of this wonderful experience, we touch it from time to time when the head stops or in training, a quiet state but with the next thought it can be gone. Practicing meditation every day helps us to control this crazy beast that lives in our heads, as my teacher asked me “ Do you want to be a passenger or do you want to be the pilot of your life” this is so true, all you smokers out there who have tried to give up will know how powerful this mind of ours is, and to tell people to sit quietly on there own? Well that sounds like solitary confinement and that’s used as a torture! If you were to try O’Sensei’s way and meditate everyday you will be engulfed by the Inner Light, then there are know doubts, it is awesome, wonderful, the best orgasm you’ll ever have (with none of the mess). But it’s not like a chocolate bar machine, you put in your money and it comes out, it may take yrs, it took me two years to have Kensho.
Trust the Great Man and turn your awareness that goes outside all the time and focus inside, it is hard but the rewards are enormous. Have a look at ‘The Nature of Aiki’ by G.S.Ledyard on this site, very nice article. I’ll shut up now, here’s some more words of the great man, I’ve added a bit in brackets hope know one minds All the best Malc
We can say that Aikido is a way to sweep away devils with the sincerity of our breath (PRANAYARMA) instead of a sword. That is to say, to turn the devil-minded world into the World of Spirit. This is the mission of Aikido.
There is no enemy for Ueshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them. There are neither opponents nor enemies for true budo. True budo is to be one with the universe; that is to be united with the Center of the universe (MEDITATION)).
Then, how can you straighten YOUR warped mind, purify your heart, and be harmonized with the activities of all things in Nature? You should first make the kami's heart yours (THROUGH MEDITATION). It is a Great love, Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe.
Winning means winning over the mind of discord in YOURSELF. It is to accomplish your bestowed mission.
This is not mere theory. You practice it. Then you will accept the great power of oneness with Nature.

[Ron Tisdale]

One thing is definite that the great man did not write works like ‘The Way of Peace ‘ because he was bored one day or wanted to play a joke. I

"The Way Of Peace" was written by John Stevens, not Ueshiba Sensei.

Best,
Ron

[tarik]

I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true?

I guess it depends on what is meant by using ki. Defining ki is important or else we're not speaking the same language and transmitting genuine meaning.

Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

Entering into a real opening will definitely always add strength to a technique.

Tarik

[Upyu]

Use the search function ;)
It's been done to death...

[malc anderson]

“ Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. He was the founder of Aikido, which can be translated as "The Art of Peace." Morihei Ueshiba is referred to by the practitioners of Aikido as O-Sensei, "The Great Teacher". The following quotations have been compiled from O-Sensei's collected talks, poems, and calligraphy, and from oral tradition.”
Hi ya Ron, As O’Sensei was Japanese and I can’t read the Japanese language, I do rely on compilers and translators for an insight into the great mans words, (it’s a shame that the points made in my thread were missed, but not completely unexpected). Please could you verify that Mr Stevens is a liar and any articles by him are also lies? As I wouldn’t like to misquote O’Sensei.
Also Ron do you do meditation? And if so have you experienced Kensho? Also you made no comment on the article by Mr Leyland. Please feel free to add to this thread and move it forward. All the best Malc

[grondahl]

Please could you verify that Mr Stevens is a liar and any articles by him are also lies?


Apparently no "shades of gray" here.

[Mike Sigman]

Well, Malc.... looks like you've been sent to Coventry.

Mike

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Malc,

Where in my post did I claim that Mr. Stevens was a "liar"? You really should learn how to read before you cast such inaccuracies and aspersions. As it happens, I consider Stevens Sensei a friend, and teacher. I do not agree with all of his perspectives, but any disagreements with his perspectives are always polite and respectfull. I certainly wouldn't bandy them about in this forum, in any case. And certainly not with you.

If you wish to move this conversation forward, I'd accept an appology. ;)

Best,
Ron
" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. He was the founder of Aikido, which can be translated as "The Art of Peace." Morihei Ueshiba is referred to by the practitioners of Aikido as O-Sensei, "The Great Teacher". The following quotations have been compiled from O-Sensei's collected talks, poems, and calligraphy, and from oral tradition."
Hi ya Ron, As O'Sensei was Japanese and I can't read the Japanese language, I do rely on compilers and translators for an insight into the great mans words, (it's a shame that the points made in my thread were missed, but not completely unexpected). Please could you verify that Mr Stevens is a liar and any articles by him are also lies? As I wouldn't like to misquote O'Sensei.
Also Ron do you do meditation? And if so have you experienced Kensho? Also you made no comment on the article by Mr Leyland. Please feel free to add to this thread and move it forward. All the best Malc

[malc anderson]

Hi ya Ron, Are we both trying to defend the excellent Mr Stevens work? I hold his work in the highest regard, and would advise any Aikidoka to read any of his books they have certainly inspired me. I am sad that you are upset and I apologise for this as harmony is what I want in my and every one’s life. You may have noticed one of the other posts also miss understood your post as he wrote about ‘grey areas’, I don’t agree, Mr Stevens translations are excellent, any way I shall close before any one decides to burn me at the stake. I wish you all the best bye .Malc I shall not bother you all again.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Malc,

The other poster was referring to your post, not mine ;) And I'm not upset...just speaking strongly about what you said. You can speak strongly without being upset, which is why I used the smiley. Just because you don't agree with someone on some things does not mean you think they are a liar... ;) But your apology is certainly accepted. No reason for you to stop 'bothering' us...you weren't. Hopefully you'll continue to post.

As for the published works of John Stevens, I have most of them. My favorite is his biography of Teshhu. The next would be his book about the aikido of Rinjiro Shirata. The next would be his translation of 'Budo', written by Ueshiba, and the photos Stevens Sensei added. The others are more hagiography to my mind...they contain much of the 'lore' of Ueshiba and aikido...but when it comes to actual history, I prefer Stan Pranin's work. But this preference in no way takes away from the tremendous gifts Stevens Sensei has given to me personally, and to aikido in general.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Sigman]

I do not agree with all of his perspectives, but any disagreements with his perspectives are always polite and respectfull. I certainly wouldn't bandy them about in this forum, in any case. Hi Ron:

If you disagreed with some of Steven's perspectives, where would you discuss them, if not here? Disagreement would allow you to make your points and people could decide for themselves while at the same time getting people to think, follow your reasoning, follow Stevens' reasoning, and so on. When someone publicly prints something, it's open for discussion. I've followed some discussions about things I've printed and agreed, disagreed, and learned. It's always added to my own picture, never detracted.

Regards,

Mike

[Josh Reyer]

Mr Stevens translations are excellent, any way

Even the best translations are heavily filtered by the translator's own perspective and/or bias (conscious and unconscious). I recommend that you learn Japanese so that you can read the originals, without Mr. Stevens' filter.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Mike,

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. And if Stevens Sensei participated in these boards, I might well take your advice. But he doesn't, and most likely will not. His choice, and I don't fault him for it.

What a lot of people seem to have problems with on boards like these, is that actual, living relationships are much more important to me (at least) than the conversations and discussions we have here. Since I have an actual, living relationship with Stevens Sensei, I choose to value that over any discussions here. So when he is in the area, he shares things with me, I share things with him, and we discuss. Along with any mat time we get in together. I wouldn't cheapen that relationship by bringing that stuff online.

But that is just my own personal perspective, and it doesn't have to be shared by anyone else.

Best,
Ron

[Erick Mead]

some more words of the great man,
---- (Malcolm quoting Ueshiba)

There is no enemy for Ueshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them. There are neither opponents nor enemies for true budo. True budo is to be one with the universe; that is to be united with the Center of the universe (MEDITATION)).
It is a Great love, Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe.
Winning means winning over the mind of discord in YOURSELF. It is to accomplish your bestowed mission.
This is not mere theory. You practice it. Then you will accept the great power of oneness with Nature.
Less esoterically, practice of martial art as a endeavor in love is not antithetical. It is in fact a realization of the highest level of art in battle, and the revealing of a powerful but perilous truth.

Men do not fight and die in battle for the sake of country, honor, fame or to avoid recrimination. They fight out of love of one another, for those who stand arm to arm with them and would also die to defend them. Love, and love alone drives men to charge machine guns when their own ammunition is spent and the bayonet their only remaining weapon. Nothing but love will drive a man so far past the bounds of any hopes of personal survival. It is a love both life-altering for oneself, live or die, and both awful and terrifying to behold in another.

On the pyres of such love have empires and mighty civilizations been burnt to utter ruin by the passion of a few -- it is not a delicately frail thing. One man, in my religious tradition, willingly suffered and died for such love of the whole world, and in the most ignoble manner possible, yet that love still altered the course of world history, if not eternity. Love is mighty, indefatigable and can cherish or kill with equal fervor. Love is a fierce and awesome force.

We approach therefore with both caution and reverence this thing that we dare to awaken in our hearts, and in which we train our limbs to answer. We aikidoka do it, however, with one advantage over other martial traditions, which O-Sensei taught us:: we know that love is the true call we must answer to train in the Way of war (budo), even to love those with whom we fight -- as that other great man also taught us.
We must not do disservice to ourselves or our students by suggesting that love is a marshmallowy walk through flowery fields, or long spells of mere navel-gazing.

By all means kiai -- with all the ferocity and love you can manage.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Mike Sigman]

Even the best translations are heavily filtered by the translator's own perspective and/or bias (conscious and unconscious). I recommend that you learn Japanese so that you can read the originals, without Mr. Stevens' filter. I've commented about translations before and I'll mention it again... even native speakers of Japanese and Chinese, people who are raised in the culture but like any other person cannot know all the history and lore, will make mistakes in translations related to martial arts. Over and over again, in my experience, I've seen fluent translators and historians make enormous basic errors because they don't understand the context or functional usage some of the apocryphal comments in martial arts refer to. And I've yet to see any well-known western translartor really admit that problem; although the bright native-speaking translators will often admit that the idiom, ancient usage, etc., of the subject matter may make their translations incorrect. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt... even what I say about taking things with a grain of salt. ;)

FWIW

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

But that is just my own personal perspective, and it doesn't have to be shared by anyone else. If only the Far Left and the Far Right shared that view. ;)

Mike

[Ron Tisdale]

:) Yeah, like THAT'S ever gonna happen... :)

B,
R

[Erick Mead]

Over and over again, in my experience, I've seen fluent translators and historians make enormous basic errors because they don't understand the context or functional usage some of the apocryphal comments in martial arts refer to. And I've yet to see any well-known western translartor really admit that problem; although the bright native-speaking translators will often admit that the idiom, ancient usage, etc., of the subject matter may make their translations incorrect.

I too, occasionally find Stevens' views problematially peeping through translations. It is unavoidable, but it should be noted as a universal problem.
A good comparative source on a number of the Doka Stevens translates (e.g. -- "Essence of AIkido") may be found in "Budo Training in Aikido. " The translators of "Budo Training in AIkido" use both a translation that attempts to leave the waka form of the Japanese verse intact in very spare, nearly literal word for word transcription, and a parallel translation into more idiomatic English versiform.

Also great pictures and techinques descriptions drawn directly from O-Sensei's own class presentations. Much worth having.

The comparisons betwen the parallel verses and Stevens versions are instructive and the differences are interesting.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Mike Sigman]

Thanks for the pointer, Erick. I will buy the book and take a look (what the hey.... what's one more book on top of the tons I already have ;) ).

There are already some deathly quiet book-writers in the Chinese martial arts who have found out belatedly that they badly missed the boat on the qi and jin issues in earlier books because even though they were reasonably fluent and knowledgeable, this closed-category of knowledge had its own set of idiom and allusion. Literal translations or even translations with some degree of context were thwarted by the fact that the authors hadn't themselves been exposed to this area of studies. The perspective about the knowledge contained in both Chinese and Japanese martial arts is changing currently, although there will be some people that will cling to what they think they know until they are phased out. We're all human, ain't we? ;)

FWIW

Mike

[Peter Goldsbury]

Thanks for the pointer, Erick. I will buy the book and take a look (what the hey.... what's one more book on top of the tons I already have ;) ). Mike

Hello Mike,

If you can find it, the older parallel Japanese - English translation is very much worth having. It is a photographed copy of the original with all the Chinese characters, which I think would be very illuminating, for you, with your extensive background in CMA.

Best regards,

PAG

[Mike Sigman]

I have already ordered the book, thanks, Peter. It will be interesting to see what additional information I can glean, although... as I pointed out... translating literally without a complete understanding of the idiom of the times, the allegories, the allusions, etc., in relation to the culture can sometimes lead a person to a conclusion that may not be exactly accurate.

In Stevens' work I have also seen no indication that he personally ever trained in the ki and "kei" (essence of what we're calling "kokyu") regimens. So, without implying any personal diminishment of Stevens' abilities, I'm positing (fairly safely, I might add) that Stevens had difficulty with accuracy because he wasn't familiar with the topic.

In Stevens' translation of the essence of Aikido, his one tranlation of the "Eight Powers" is pretty much enough to lay the topic away, even if he translated nothing else. The "Eight Powers" or "Four Poles" are only used in one context, the training of ki and kei (jin)abilities.

The common basal discussion of ki training has to do with combining the ki of heaven with the ki of earth. Even though it is a cosmological concept (the "ki of heaven", the "ki of earth", and Man in the Center or on a bridge between the two), the idea of using the MInd, the Yi, the Will (Ueshiba calls it the "Divine Will" in pretty clear usage, even via translations) in conjunction with the Ki of Heaven, Ki of Earth, etc., again pretty much lays it away. The essence of training yourself to gain ki powers is through subtle exercises of "the ki of heaven" and the "ki of earth" that are related to the mind and fascia-related systems while doing various movements to effect body-wide training of the abilities.

The point I'm getting at is that even without a contextual understanding of what Ueshiba was referring to, the literal or near-literal translations that are available are so solid as to prompt me to bet my house without any reservations whatsoever on the idea that Ueshiba was making pretty standard references to ki-related training. ;) If nothing else, a translator who knew these topics and how to train them, could not have missed the obvious relationship and, if he thought Ueshiba referred to something else, would have been duty-bound to mention the relationship and give reasons for discounting it.

In addition, if you add the overt ki demonstrations by Ueshiba (which mimic old Chinese demonstrations of qi almost exactly), the basic practices contained within his Misogi rituals (again with direct parallels and definitive Chinese Buddhist heritage to support the idea) the obvious is supported again. If I thought a little bit longer and went more completely through all the other markers, I could probably extend the argument with other examples. However, given the number of similar writings and comments, the "harmony of the universe", etc., I don't think it's all that necessary.

My suggestion is that anyone interested in following the Chinese-related clues which abound in Ueshiba's writings (even the Shinto elements appear to be based on the wuji-taiji cosmology) might consider going beyond debating the exact translations of Ueshiba's writings and go to the Chinese martial sources to see where Ueshiba was drawing his inspiration.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[SeiserL]

My suggestion is that anyone interested in following the Chinese-related clues which abound in Ueshiba's writings (even the Shinto elements appear to be based on the wuji-taiji cosmology) might consider going beyond debating the exact translations of Ueshiba's writings and go to the Chinese martial sources to see where Ueshiba was drawing his inspiration.
Now you've got me curious.
While I agree that there certainly appear some obvious parallels and correlations and translations imply some level of distortion or misinterpretation, where have you found specific historical reference that Ueshiba specifically studied Chinese martial arts or cosmology?
I enjoy it when I am wrong because it means I am learning.

[Ron Tisdale]

where have you found specific historical reference that Ueshiba specifically studied Chinese martial arts or cosmology?

I don't think Mike is saying that Ueshiba studied under a Chinese instructor to learn these things. I believe he is saying that through-out asia, there is a way of refering to a method of training the body, and that phrases such as 'uniting the ki of heaven and the ki of earth, through the body of man' signify a connection (however diluted or distant) to these methodologies. So you may have these phrases passed down in items like the Kojiki, or other texts, and Ueshiba would have gotten this exposure there.

I believe even in shinto in general, you can see influences from mainland culture and cosmology...but that is really a discussion for the scholars, which I am not.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Sigman]

where have you found specific historical reference that Ueshiba specifically studied Chinese martial arts or cosmology? Well, wait.... I never said Ueshiba studied Chinese martial arts or cosmology, nor did I imply it. However, a number of posts on these forums (see some of Ellis's stuff) have mentioned the wide relationships and there is a broad literature (not to mention how obvious it is even in casual reading) discussing the borrowing of Chinese Buddhist thought and Chinese cosmology by the Japanese in Buddhism and Shintoism. Shinto was originally an animist belief system, but it changes in many sects to a cosmology based on the wuji, taiji, liangyi, sixiang, etc., of Chinese cosmology. I'll be glad to expand a little bit if you'll tell me where you're losing the thread of thought, Lynn, but I assumed most people understood that the clear parallels between Chinese cosmology and Japanese cognate were there.

If nothing else, there should be an epiphany simply from the fact that the Japanese use the same ki/qi paradigm that is used in China. Ki/qi is not like, for instance, a hair-style, kimono, alphabet or something stand-alone which was borrowed as a convenient term.... Ki/qi is a keystone of the Chinese cosmology; the fact that the Japanese use the term "ki" should imply the rest of the cosmology is there.

Ueshiba's writings directly and indirectly (through Shinto, Buddhist, etc., cognates derived from Chinese cosmology, etc.) use the Chinese cosmology and perspectives.

I once posted the URL of a picture of Tohei standing behind Ueshiba's (seated) right shoulder. I did this to show how the Japanese martial arts have borrowed from the Chinese traditions even down to the smallest details of protocol and tradition, such as a disciple only being pictured in certain ways in relation to the master. The modern times seem to have forgotten the extreme depths of borrowing during the past ages... something Ellis Amdur has posted about a few times, noting particularly the Edo Period, but it was common at other times, as well.

It is common in the Chinese martial arts to show that everything "correct" follows the dictates of the cosmological harmony. To that effect, martial arts allude many of their tenets and principles to Chinese cosmology ("Tai chi huan", "Baguazhang", "Liangyiquan", etc.). Ueshiba's use of the "Ki of Heaven", "Ki of Earth" (do a Google on those terms but use "qi", if you want to see the basic cosmological theories) in relation to the "Divine Will", combining them for power, the "eight powers", etc., are a dead giveaway that Ueshiba is borrowing from the common Chinese references which also refer to elements of ki and power principles.

Is someone "wrong" for not knowing these things, Lynn? No. We have to all learn these things at one time or another; I take pride in how much I learn every year, not in what I already know. ;)

Regards,

Mike

[Michael Mackenzie]

FWIW,

I have heard it posited the O-Sensei, given the times in which he grew up and developed his budo, was knowingly or unknowingly a neo-Confucian first, a Buddhist second, and a Shintoist third.

I await the onslaught of disbelief....

Mike

[SeiserL]

Well, wait.... I never said Ueshiba studied Chinese martial arts or cosmology, nor did I imply it.
Appreciate the clarification.

I think I was trying to connect the dots directly with one line instead of connecting the influences from this dot, to that dot, to that dot, to that dot, to Ueshiba.

I guess in someway everything influences everything else if you connect the dots right. Sorta butterfly effect.

Thanks.

[Erick Mead]

So you may have these phrases passed down in items like the Kojiki, or other texts, and Ueshiba would have gotten this exposure there.
I believe even in shinto in general, you can see influences from mainland culture and cosmology...but that is really a discussion for the scholars, which I am not.

Curse the B.A. in East Asian studies (big breath now,) ::

Taoist Confucianism came to Japan in the fifth century, two or three hundred years before the components of the Kojiki were being sytematically written down. The wuji -taiji system (Tai Ji - Liang Yi- Si Xiang-Ba Gua) underlies the Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki system with the notable distinction of Sangen (three forms) versus Liang Yi (two powers). "Two becomes three" process theology has an exceedingly broad and deep lineage.

We do not have good evidence as to any precursor manuscripts of the Kojiki, almost all of which were likely lost in the wars of the landed nobility against the militant temples. The present text of the Kojiki dates from the eighth century. Needless to say, it had no footnotes or bibliography.

There is far less culturual isolation in the world from a very early period than some histories would have you believe. The Tao Te Ching lays out this same process philosophy (Tao begets One, the One begets Two, Two begets three, and Three begets the ten thousand things.) "Two becomes three" trinitarian process philosophy in Taoism is related to the development of Maitreyan trinitarian ideas (Trikaya = three bodies or forms) along the Silk road in the third century. Gandhara (Kandahar in Afghanaistan) and Bamian (the blown up buddhas) were primary Hellenic Buddhist centers. The extreme similarity of Trikaya doctrine to Christian trinitarian incarnationalism speaks for itself, and the Christian triniatrian ideas have Hellenic (and Semitic) precursors. Direct parallels lie between these and the Kojiki's creational trinity, Amenominakanushi no kami, Takamimusubi no kami, and Kamimusubi no kami.

Maitreya Buddha is expressly messianic, the first soteric (savior) image in Eastern religious thought, thought to have developed in the firts century, as is Amida (ca. 2d century). Maitreya is seen in China as early as the third century. Amida is seen in China somewhat later. Amida and the ever popular Guanyin/Kwannon are often depicted in a trinity with Seishi (Dai Shi ZhI (e.g. -- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chinese_temple_bouddha.jpg).
The Amida's Pure Land paradiase is almost surely Persian in origin, as is the word "paradise."

The lineage of savior traditions has Non-Christian Hellenic and Semitic roots. These may have a direct common source in Persian Zoraoastrianism (or indirectly through Mithraism). Persian culture still maintains its distinctive attachment to savior theology even under Islam, as witness the Shi-ite belief in the Mahdi oir Mehdi, the mysteriously hidden Twelfth Imam whose reappearence will signal the final struggle and saving of all believers. Kojiki Shinto has Suwano as a strong parallel to this line of savior theology.

Lao-tse is dated to sometime in the fourth century. He legendarily passed out of all knowledge in China into the West on his blue ox. Hellenic and Christian thought influenced Taoist and Indian Buddist teaching going east, both of which were passing together over the Silk Road to China between the first and sixth centuries. Not well-enough known is the fact that the first written Mongolian is transcribed in a vertically oriented (Chinese style) Aramaic script (that's what Jesus spoke).

The most notable modern exponents of this long tradition in process thought in the West have been Alfred North Whitehead, Bertrand Russell and more recently, although few know it, Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul, II, John Paul was a well-regarded philosopher in phenomenology before he became Pope.

Later Japanese systemization of the Kojiki Shinto attempted to "purge" it of "foreign" elements and interpretations under the Kokugaku (National Studies) in the nineteenth century. Hirata Atsutane, and Motoori Norinaga, were leading figures in this process and have been recurrently criticized for supposed "Christian" influences (as were others for being too "buddhist".)

But as you see here, the connections are far deeper.

FWIW.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Mike Sigman]

Incidentally, I got a copy of the book, "Budo Training in Aikido" (Sugawara Martial Arts Institute) and looked at their translations of Ueshiba's douka.... and incidentally, the douka are *supposed* to contain secret references to the art, so why someone questioned (on another thread) the idea that there were "codewords" being used is a bit startling.

My personal preferences for the translations actually has to go to Stevens, if there is a preference for literal translation. By shifting some of the translations idiom, the Sugawara translation actually obscures some of the references. "Ki" as used by Ueshiba is not meant to be "breath" (one of a number of possible translations), but is used in the etheric sense that would similarly be implied in Chinese commentaries along similar veins... in my opinion. So "heavenly breath", for instance, should be left as "the ki of heaven" as it's tranlated in normal cosmological references. There are other instances where I think the intent is obscured somewhat, but I don't know if it's ever possible to translate deliberately cryptic obscurata into clear English directions. ;^) Still, there is probably an ideal compromise, assuming the translator understands the background and is able to do a clarifying discussion as a preface, etc., for the douka translations.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Later Japanese systemization of the Kojiki Shinto attempted to "purge" it of "foreign" elements and interpretations under the Kokugaku (National Studies) in the nineteenth century. Hirata Atsutane, and Motoori Norinaga, were leading figures in this process and have been recurrently criticized for supposed "Christian" influences (as were others for being too "buddhist".) I don't know enough real Japanese history to understand exactly what happened and when, but it's pretty obvious that the massive and rather public intermingling and availability of Chinese studies (particularly martial and related) has somehow been obscured at some recent time in history. Whether it was the 19th Century or in the 20th Century, it's hard to tell.

However, there are historians out there that seem to know that there was an open focus on Chinese body-technology and martial arts at earlier times... facts that seem to be almost fanatically denied nowadays in many corners. Western histories often parrot these nationalistic ideas and all it does is slow the search for information and sources, IMO.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Erick Mead]

BTW, Lao Tse is fourth century - BC - lest someone misinterpret my omission on that point.

Erick Mead

[Erick Mead]

I don't know enough real Japanese history to understand exactly what happened and when, but it's pretty obvious that the massive and rather public intermingling and availability of Chinese studies (particularly martial and related) has somehow been obscured at some recent time in history. Whether it was the 19th Century or in the 20th Century, it's hard to tell.

That was the EXPRESS purpose of the nineteenth century Kokugaku (National Studies) movement to remove or diminish all foreign elements, in service of the imperial cult and the resulting ascendancy of State Shinto. Consequently, the common Japanese soldier of the thirties, educated in state schools, had little knowledge of extent of the cultural debt owed to the Chinese. And we all know where that led.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Ron Tisdale]

Hmmm, yes, that was the first thing that occurred to me (not). ;)

Thank you for the post...that was a very clear presentation. One interesting thing about John Steven's presentations in this area is that he often plays up these commonalities in a very general way. I think he would get less criticism for this if he laid out some of the back ground as you have just done. I believe he considers his approach as making these topics 'accessible' to occidentals.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Sigman]

That was the EXPRESS purpose of the nineteenth century Kokugaku (National Studies) movement to remove or diminish all foreign elements, in service of the imperial cult and the resulting ascendancy of State Shinto. Consequently, the common Japanese soldier of the thirties, educated in state schools, had little knowledge of extent of the cultural debt owed to the Chinese. And we all know where that led. Thanks... I knew there had to be *something* like that. And unfortunately, everyone who learns from Japanese sources nowadays is subject to furthering that impression of Japan's nationalistic history because that's what they learn. Now I'm curious to see what really happened in a couple of isolated cases (e.g., Chen Gempin) befor the Kokugaku got hold of them.

Regards,

Mike

[mathewjgano]

FWIW,

I have heard it posited the O-Sensei, given the times in which he grew up and developed his budo, was knowingly or unknowingly a neo-Confucian first, a Buddhist second, and a Shintoist third.

I await the onslaught of disbelief....

Mike

I'm hardly an expert, but I'm curious what the basis for that position is, considering the level of devotion Osensei seems to have had for Omoto-kyo and Shinto mythology in general. Based strictly on that it would seem to me the Omoto-kyo form of Shinto would be better described as his "primary" dogma. I wonder too, how much influence Confucianism has on Shinto and if that is what some people might be seeing. I know Buddhism has had quite a bit of influence and there are very similar concepts such as that of yin and yang which pervade much of eastern philosophy. Are similar inclusions perhaps why some say what you said regarding that hierarchy of paradigms?
Take care!
Matt

[Erick Mead]

I wonder too, how much influence Confucianism has on Shinto and if that is what some people might be seeing. I know Buddhism has had quite a bit of influence and there are very similar concepts such as that of yin and yang which pervade much of eastern philosophy. Are similar inclusions perhaps why some say what you said regarding that hierarchy of paradigms?
Hierarchy, yep. That is the name of the game in Japanese history.
Confucianism, or more properly Neo-Confucianism of the Ming, was very influential on Shinto during the Tokugawa period. A similar pattern obtained earlier. From about 1200-1600 (the Kamakura/Muromachi period) the succesive Shogunates promoted Ryobu Shinto as a means of regularizing Shinto practice within Buddhist monastic institutions, and thus registering all people with a Buddhist temple or monastery. This identified potential rival sources of power and was used to control the population. The monasteries, particularly the mountain monasteries, then became quite independent as sources of power in their own right. They played near king-maker roles by the time of the Warring States period, just prior to the Edo (Tokugawa period). Nobunaga destroyed all the yamabushi monasteries and he, and Ieyasu Tokuagawa then imported Neo-Confucianism (which had already in some respects syncretized many Buddhist elements within it).

NeoConfucianism then formed an institutional bulwark of the Tokugawa shogunate in a centralized manner, as distinguished from the more disperesed institutional framework among the Buddhist temple, which had fulfilled the same role under the Ryobu Shinto system. Shinto shrines then adopted a role of ritual support of Neo-Confucian ideals, all controlled from the Edo Shogunate in a tightly disciplined scheme of appointments. This continued until the restoration of the Meiji Emperor. State Shinto was then cultivated to repalce the Neo-Confucian order so strongly associated with the Shogunate, and the Kokugaku (national studies) attempted to "purify Shinto of these "foreign elements." An impossible task, as you will surely imagine.

O-Sensei was raised in this period and reacted strongly against it by experimienting with the Omoto community, itself a reactive hodge-podge (along with the other "new religions, viciously suppressed by the Japanese state) which presented blenderized ideas generally opposed to and subversive of the pyramidal ideology of the Emperor cult.

The result, in many areas of the Kokugaku endeavor, is very much the ideological dog's breakfast that is seen in the same period in European political thought. That simultaneously gave us the national imperialism, the invented German king, the invented Italian king, and in a similar pattern of adhoc ideological reactions, anarchism, socialism, communism, and, eventually fascism and Nazism.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Mike Sigman]

O-Sensei was raised in this period and reacted strongly against it by experimienting with the Omoto community, itself a reactive hodge-podge (along with the other "new religions, viciously suppressed by the Japanese state) which presented blenderized ideas generally opposed to and subversive of the pyramidal ideology of the Emperor cult. I think "blenderized" is a good term for what I notice in the religion-related maunderings of Ueshiba's writings. There is a very noticeable admixture of Shinto and Buddhism along with Chinese cosmology.

Speaking of "blenderized", I wonder how strong the translations of "peace and love" would have been if more of the translators had understood the "harmony with/of the universe" idea in the context of Chinese cosmology which stresses the importance of a Way of no conflict with the physical laws?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Erick Mead]

I think "blenderized" is a good term for what I notice in the religion-related maunderings of Ueshiba's writings. There is a very noticeable admixture of Shinto and Buddhism along with Chinese cosmology.
Speaking of "blenderized", I wonder how strong the translations of "peace and love" would have been if more of the translators had understood the "harmony with/of the universe" idea in the context of Chinese cosmology which stresses the importance of a Way of no conflict with the physical laws?
Don't get me wrong. Omoto was simply a less discriminating syncretic effort than that of Neo-Confuciuanism, Ryobu Shinto or others (even Kokugaku). Its emphasis was on heart not logic. That syncretic tendency underlies much of spiritual thinking in the East, and most strongly in Japan.
Our analytic preferences pervade our theology to a fault as the synthetic preferences of the Japanese pervade theirs.

As to "peace/love," try reading "A Terrible Love of War" by James Hillman (2004). I don't agree with everything he concludees at the end, but his observations of the relationship between love and ferocious martial spirit are profound -- as well as disturbing.
He does much to make O-Sensei's point (Budo = Love) much more comprehensible to typical Western sensibility, without ever even mentioning aikido.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Stephen Kotev]

As to "peace/love," try reading "A Terrible Love of War" by James Hillman (2004). I don't agree with everything he concludees at the end, but his observations of the relationship between love and ferocious martial spirit are profound -- as well as disturbing.
He does much to make O-Sensei's point (Budo = Love) much more comprehensible to typical Western sensibility, without ever even mentioning aikido.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Erick,

Can you say more about Hillman and his conclusions? Sounds fascinating.

Cheers,
Stephen

[Erick Mead]

Erick,
Can you say more about Hillman and his conclusions? Sounds fascinating.
Cheers,
Stephen

Basically, Hillman begins by observing that war is a universal condition of human history at all times and in all societies, without substanital exception. He then examines the reasons for this, and comes to some startling conclusions. War exists in human society because
1) war is sublime
(and therefore simultenously horrific and exhilirating beyond normaitve measures of experience)

2) war is inhuman
(and therefore not capable of human(e) controls) and

3) war is religion
(therefore commanding commitment of resources (personal and collective) beyond merely rational calculations).

War seduces and entices those minds suited to it, and maims those unsuited minds that are exposed to it. Those who learn to bear the experience of war, more often feel love for those who endure it with them in ways beyond their capacity to adequately express, and in ways that seem to surpass in depth and intensity all other experiences of loving.
Hillman suggests therefore that love is at the root of war, and that love's protective impulse, individually and collectively, is among the most powerful (and non-rational) of human motivators, precisely because if its proven ability to motivate people to act in the face of and in spite of any ordinary limits imposed by experiences of extreme horror and abject terror.

He then begins his conclusion by observing that aesthetics controls martial spirit (spit, polish, and all that finery) as it does loving endeavors ( yet more proof of the close affiliation) He presents good arguments for this. He suggests that martial virtue and the spirit of fierce and rash love that is present within war can also aid us in stopping a conflict from starting in ways that rationality and mere peace-talk can never do. He presents an ancient Greek Hymn to Ares and analyzes its purposes to this end, which is fascinating as well.
All in all, I find much that resonates in Hillman's observations with my study of Aikido, in both technique and as a more general philosophical approach. It is mightily compelling that when considered from a purely Western perspective the same themes find their way to the surface.
The aspect of gracefulness and beauty inherent in our movements does help to control and channel our agression into paths that protect rather than injure. Ugly technique is by an large bad technique.
The awakening of the instinctive impulse to [Attack!!] (irimi) in the face of danger is at the heart of every aikido technique. This distinguishes the warrior mind that is not harmed by exposure ot battle, from the non-warrior mind that is wekedn and debilitated by violence which breaks their will and calm.

And yet in this same way, by allowing our will (to attack) to be bent or broken the result is turned (tenkan) from harm. By then completely accepting the attack we have first entered into with fierce determination, we bring our enemy, our partner, within the bounds of the same spirit of protection that impels us to respond aggressively to the attack in the first place.

Again, I highly recommend it.
Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Mark Freeman]

thanks for that excellent precise Erick, I for one, will certainly try to get hold of a copy. I particularly liked:
The aspect of gracefulness and beauty inherent in our movements does help to control and channel our agression into paths that protect rather than injure. Ugly technique is by an large bad technique
regards,
Mark

[Thalib]

There was a topic on kiai, way back when...

Let me see if I could find it...

Ah yes...

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13926&postcount=6

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13810&postcount=32


Regards,

K'

I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

[Erick Mead]

There was a topic on kiai, way back when...
Let me see if I could find it...
Ah yes...
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13926&postcount=6
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13810&postcount=32
Regards,
K'
Jakarta was lovely my last time there, about ten years ago. Imagine my surprise to walk into the Twenty-Third Annual Highland Games of Jakarta. God love the Scots! I staggered away some hours later a bit worse for wear, but better than the pints I had bested. Of course, I did not fare any better with the Brits and Ozzies during the Hash run in Surabaya either, but that's another story.

Kiai was best described to me as a sudden crystalization of mind/body (seika no itten) into a single working unit moving from hara. The point about breath in the links provided is well-taken. Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Mike Sigman]

Kiai was best described to me as a sudden crystalization of mind/body (seika no itten) into a single working unit moving from hara. The point about breath in the links provided is well-taken. Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause. Unless your body, and particularly the dantien area, is trained in the correct way, the pressure addition of kiai won't do much good (in the way it's intended to do).

I'm reminded of a story where a historic Tai Chi figure did a demonstration by lying on the ground, putting some millet seeds into his navel, and then snapped them up into the air with a sudden exhale and snap of his stomach. This ability comes from breathing correctly (reverse breathing), storing and releasing power, etc., over a long period of time. However, there is a "tai chi teacher" I know that has his students put a penny on their stomach and see who can snap it highest.... misunderstanding what the original demonstration was about. So while this teacher has focused his mind on the idea of an object being snapped into the air (totally missing the extensive training of the rest of the body to get there), doing "kiai" noises without understanding the training and pressure, etc., considerations of the body is the same "miss the point". IMO.

FWIW

Mike

[Michael Douglas]

Erick Mead wrote : "Since the motion of the body must harmonize with the motion of the breath for this condition to be maintained, a concentrated force movement such as atemi or sutemi, requires similar focus of breath, often resulting in the "kiai" shout. It is an effect, not the cause."

I completely agree.
I find that during training, if all seems to come together
just right, you are 'in the zone', you move faster and
understand what is happening while your opponent seems
slow and confused. At times like these I find myself making
some sound, i.e. Kiai, of sorts.
Now, maybe my making a sound is a tacky subconscious
acting-out of filmic special effects, maybe it is a real effect
of doing excellent stuff.

[Mark Freeman]

Now, maybe my making a sound is a tacky subconscious acting-out of filmic special effects, maybe it is a real effect of doing excellent stuff.

Maybe if you've only been practicing for a while, it would be I think the films would be the influence.
maybey if you've been practicing for a long time it would be excellent stuff. ;)

[Erick Mead]

Maybe if you've been practicing for a long time it would be excellent stuff. ;) For those who have not done it routinely, an excellent kiai practice is the fundatori/furatama exercise. The exercise is closely related to kotodama practice, and also has relation to sword-work and the "Ey!" "Yah!" "Toh!" of movement. I have been in number of aikikai dojos that do not do it routinely, so it may be unfamiliar to some.

It looks a little silly, a bunch of people shifting forward and back in time with one another and thrusting their arms forward ("EY !") and back ("SA !") like rowing a boat. But it really does work. The more people doing it, the less self-conscious you are, and the more you can work on blending focus, which is the heart of kiai, and of aiki.

If you have ever been to Japan and seen the kinds of, shall we say, - idiosyncratic - mass exercises that have been done in the corporate world, fundatori/furatama is fairly nondescript. For an howling example of the uncritical acceptance of this kind of thing in Japan: see this clip recently sent by a buddy of mine, which is a recruiting commercial (swear to God) for the JMSDF (Japan's not-a-Navy) :freaky:
http://www.jda.go.jp/JMSDF/info/event/cm_p/16cm.html

Cordially,
Erick Mead

[Mark Freeman]

The clip you provide Erick looks like it would play well in certain clubs in San fransisco! :D

We do not train with kiai as a systematic part of our aikido, so what you speak of is unfamiliar to me. What I do find though is that if I am thrown powerfully with ki, then a kiai type sound comes out of me sponaniously, if I am thrown without, no sound comes out. I don't know what the explanation to this is, it's just the way it happens. :)

regards,
Mark

[Michael Douglas]

Hey Mark, that happened to my mate on Sunday.
I threw him powerfully, and a spontaneous "JESUS!" came out of him.
(His words, not mine)
It was cool.