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Gustaf Rydevik
01-24-2006, 03:39 PM
Hi All!

I've been a bit curious lately about the workings of the (in shodokan aikido) basic Shomen Ate technique. What I've been able to find on the web usually shows a sort of atemi to the face, followed by a push, resulting in uke falling.
However, while playing around in the dojo, I've been unable to generate a throwing feeling in this way, only getting uke pushed back a step or two.
If anyone could give me a more in-depth description of how to do it, or show me where such can be found on the web, I'd be very grateful.

Best

Gustaf

PeterR
01-24-2006, 05:56 PM
Hi Gustav;

There is a lot going on that is hard to see (God that sounds mysterious).

Timing has to be such that balance is taken from the beginning and once broken there is a dropping of the hips and collapse onto uke's chest with the forearm.

Were you watching the animated gifs on the Shodokan Honbu website?

L. Camejo
01-24-2006, 06:34 PM
Secret to Shomen Ate.

Time and position your entry so that you break Uke's balance along his weak line as his front foot is about to land. On landing (from his first step) your sho tei should be penetrating deeply, focussing power through his head, via his chin. Done properly, Uke's spine should bend backwards like a letter "c" just before you sink your hips and step through with tsugi ashi to make him fall.

Timing, positioning and alignment are crucial.

Ok no more secrets - go practice.:D

LC:ai::ki:

Yann Golanski
01-25-2006, 04:17 AM
In my experience, you have to break uke's balance as soon as possible. This means that you have to enter deeply with your sho tei. It's a very very hard technique and one of the best I can think of. Mainly because you can do so much afterwards if uke resists.

In randori, i always start with a atemi waza and move onto elbows and wrists if that fails -- which generally it does! *grins evilly*

Gustaf Rydevik
01-25-2006, 07:28 AM
re Peter:

Yes, I've looked on the gif on the shodokan homepage. That's where I saw it in the first place.

I might have to clarify: I'm training aikikai (Nishio lineage), which means I've never seen this one done "live".
That's one of the reasons for me being curious, because from what I've read, it's considered a very important technique in shodokan, yet other styles rarely touch it.
Anyhow, I'll play around a little bit tomorrow after training, and see what I can figure out. Thanks everyone for your help!

Ron Tisdale
01-25-2006, 07:45 AM
Yoshinkan trains this technique as well, typically it is call shomen tsuki. We often teach it to beginners as something like katate mochi shomen tsuki ichi and ni. Basically, one wrist grasp, face thrust, one and two or omote and ura. In this version, the initial off-balancing is done by movement and the hand that is being grabbed. It has some similarities with heaven and earth throw, one hand high, one hand low, the lower hand being more important for breaking the balance initially.

Best,
Ron

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 01:02 AM
we call this technique "ago tsuki age" and it is usually considered a "variation" of the Kokyo/irimi nage family... i have used it when working as a bouncer and let me tell you i was way more surprised (well not really!!! grins evilly) than the guy who went horizontal then bang!... timing is critical and i find that turning/controlling the head during the push kind of like tenchi nage, like ron said but you don't necessarily need the other hand for kuzushi(but its great if you got it) back and down to a back corner makes the throw really work... it is not just a straight push backward... although video may make it seem like that... hope that helps...


oh those typo's...

PeterR
01-27-2006, 01:12 AM
Actually Neal the Shomen-ate is a straight push backwards with a hip drop. Tori steps through uke's legs along the weak line.

Very similar to that is aigamae-ate which soulds like what your are describing. In this case Tori steps to the outside of uke's legs attacking the body - almost like a hip check. Here spinal manipulation, through controlling the head, is one of the keys. In fact for us tenchi-nage is the ryote dori version of aigamae-ate.

Both Shomen-ate and Aigamae-ate are atemi waza for us but that is irimi-nage by another name.

Good post - thanks for that.

xuzen
01-27-2006, 01:18 AM
1) One of the little tricks I use when deploying this technique to is tilt the chin backwards to break uke's balance.
2) You can also use your other free hand to hold uke's waist to prevent him from stepping backwards and escaping this technique.
3) Follow through with your tsugi ashi stepping. Many times I see tori, just give up half way through the technique, where uke's balance was clearly not broken at all.

and

4) see my latest signature...

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 01:29 AM
yeah peter i have seen what you are describing... i don't care to be in front of uke, but rather to move off the line of attack to the outside... that is not to say it won't work as you descibe it just my preference... that way if i miss i still have the opportunity to apply something like kata ha jime, or disengage, or what ever... just my take on it...

PeterR
01-27-2006, 01:34 AM
Edwin;

Meat and potatoes stuff. Great.

Shomen-ate you actually do move off-line placing yourself about 45 degrees to uke. This is what puts you in a position to take advantage of the weak line. Uke does turn his body to face the threat and will be pushed back directly.

Moving off-line is one of the central tenants of Shodokan Aikido.

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 01:41 AM
yeah you find some interesting varitions in yoshinkan too... sometimes very linear, and direct into your opponents center... i like to think of it like a straight sword thrust to the heart... some people call that kind of stuff "the older style", but should be available if the opportunity presents itself... i kind of like the more evasive circular, especially against larger stronger opponents, but i have used the linear stuff to great effect when i had too... i miss japan, hey go eat some gyoza for me!!!

PeterR
01-27-2006, 01:54 AM
No need to urge me to eat gyoza - hmmmmm.

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 02:01 AM
ya my favorite... we used to pig out after classes on saturdays... japan is really cool... hope i can get back some day... i never made it as far as Osaka... i was mostly in the Tokyo/yokohama area... i still have to climb Fuji-san too!!

MM
01-27-2006, 10:28 AM
Hi All!

I've been a bit curious lately about the workings of the (in shodokan aikido) basic Shomen Ate technique. What I've been able to find on the web usually shows a sort of atemi to the face, followed by a push, resulting in uke falling.
However, while playing around in the dojo, I've been unable to generate a throwing feeling in this way, only getting uke pushed back a step or two.
If anyone could give me a more in-depth description of how to do it, or show me where such can be found on the web, I'd be very grateful.

Best

Gustaf

Hello!

Here's my take on shomen ate. First, a good committed attack by uke. Tori moves inward and gains a balance break through uke's arm. (through or using the arm. balance is never taken by an arm but by the whole body.) Uke attempts to recover AND also turns to attack tori again.

It's at this time that tori uses unbendable arm to place a palm on uke's chin. The "fit" should be such that tori doesn't have to reposition his/her body to bring the hand up to place the palm on uke's chin. Tori should still have uke's balance. And there should be no muscle involved in the next movement.

Physically, tori steps between uke's legs. Physically, tori relaxes the arms and lets them drop to his/her side. On another angle, tori is using their center to cut through uke's center on a diagonal direction downward to the mat to a triangular point (where the other two points are uke's feet) behind uke. Uke's spine will collapse.

If you find that you are just pushing uke backwards, then you're probably either using muscle and/or not "dropping weight" through uke's center. Think of uke in a three dimensional node. You have an X, Y, and Z axis. If you're pushing uke backwards, then you're only going in one direction. Say the Y axis. Uke's feet are along the X axis. But, you must get a Z-axis directional movement downward so uke's body goes downward. If uke only goes backwards, then there isn't anything affecting the Z axis.

Once you have your palm in uke's chin, just try keeping unbendable arm, step forward, relax the shoulders and let your arms relax enough to drop to your side. The step should be more of a "slide" of the front foot forward.

My take on it, anyway,
Mark

Saji Jamakin
02-08-2006, 03:49 PM
1) One of the little tricks I use when deploying this technique to is tilt the chin backwards to break uke's balance.
2) You can also use your other free hand to hold uke's waist to prevent him from stepping backwards and escaping this technique.
3) Follow through with your tsugi ashi stepping. Many times I see tori, just give up half way through the technique, where uke's balance was clearly not broken at all.


My first experience with Shomen-ate was exactly the same. I first leaned it like number 1 which we call Kata style so that you under stand the basics of the technique. Then number 2. Then several variations from a 45 degree angle to a 90 degree angle application which some may say is more like Aigame-ate. The key being roll the head backwards or to the side as you tsugi ashi.

I do it with the same intent as a stiff-arm in football. Notice, though, they don't roll the head or they get flagged. ;)

med
02-09-2006, 07:58 AM
Shomen ate. Frontward head strike! Yet it is a throw. If your having trouble understanding it from the perspective o fa throw simply approach it from its older Daito Ryu form as a strike timed and angled to wallop uke from their feet just before they get their front foot down. maybe visualising this way will help in your throw. where the two meet you have the true technique.

I didn't get the chance to read all your replies so if somebody has mentioned this then sorry. Its important to not let uke clock the arm that will take the head, so bring it up from your centre as you move and this should bring it up uke' sternum. this is a blind spot and also puts you in the correct position and gives the corerect purchase on the head.

Osu

Ron Tisdale
02-09-2006, 08:35 AM
I like this throw just after I've already thrown uke once in randori. As they are getting up to attack again, I follow them up, and use this before they get their stability back. Works really nicely.

Best,
Ron

jester
02-10-2006, 04:04 PM
One thing I concentrate on is uke's center rising and falling.

If you time it right, as uke recovers his balance and his body is on a rise (feet coming together), you just follow this motion and he won't be able to recover his footing and will be thrown back. If your timing is off, uke can recover and be in a strong position. If this happens, he can step back like what you described in the first post.

Uke has to attack, then recover. If he only steps forward with his front foot and never brings his back foot forward, the body rise will not happen and you won't get the right timing.