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rookie
01-18-2006, 05:28 PM
just started aikido and was wondering if there were any choking techniques in aikido? possibly taught at higher levels

mj
01-18-2006, 05:42 PM
Not really. Kata only. All the spaces are left open. :(

That's just a general observation though, nothing gospel.

RebeccaM
01-18-2006, 05:51 PM
Yes. But you don't see them very often. The only one I really know is a knife take - you end up controlling the knife/breaking you attacker's elbow across your knee with one hand and choking them with their clothes with the other hand. It is not very nice, but, OTOH, you really have no business being nice to someone who's trying to slash your throat open with a knife.

Marxama
01-18-2006, 06:49 PM
I luckily found a video of the one I was thinking about, so I won't have to explain all of it.. ;)

http://www.aikidojo.info/arisue_tsuki_ai_hanmi_kaiten_choke_variation.wmv

Arisue-sensei doesn't show the choke very clearly in this video, but 11 seconds into it, he has his hands together - from there, you make your elbows go together, and at the same time you bring your hands up, making the space between your arms smaller, thus choking uke

EDIT: Ah, also, there's a variation of that choke, where you kinda cross-grab ukes gi from behind

Karen Wolek
01-18-2006, 07:16 PM
Depends on your dojo. My sensei loves chokes. Especially on me. During freestyle class.

NagaBaba
01-18-2006, 08:24 PM
Yeah, we do also the chokes regularly. This is what the bears like the most.

Choku Tsuki
01-18-2006, 09:35 PM
Do you defend against chokes? Check your kyu tests; look for kubishime. Is it there? There's your answer.

--Chuck

MaryKaye
01-18-2006, 09:58 PM
We have sankyo against a back choke on our second kyu test. Learning it was a real growth experience for me--the attack sets off a much stronger adrenaline reaction than being grabbed or even punched. It's especially challenging when uke is a big strong guy--the technique is actually not hard, but only if you don't panic initially.

One of our sensei likes to experiment with teaching different techniques to new beginners, and once taught this one. I thought it was an interesting choice--our usual beginner throws are from katate tori, which doesn't seem like a "real attack" to a lot of people. The choke clearly is an attack, and getting to feel how someone gets out of that intrigued the newbies. The sankyo was a lot for them to grasp quickly, but just weakening and escaping the choke was a good exercise. It also forced them to come to terms with their reluctance to attack someone else: you can take someone's wrist diffidently, but you can't really choke them diffidently, or at least it's rather obvious and silly when you try.

Mary Kaye

Janet Rosen
01-18-2006, 10:15 PM
Grab from behind turning into a choke is fairly standard where I train.

Steven
01-19-2006, 12:41 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1103&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

Ron Tisdale
01-19-2006, 06:46 AM
Hi Steven,

That is a really nifty Daito ryu choke. In the Goshin jutsu portion, I believe, against a standard judo grip attack. Really nice choke... :) For anyone interested in chokes and aikido, I suggest you look to the source. Daito ryu teaches both chokes as attacks from uke, and chokes as finishing techniques against attacks as shite. Many styles of aikido have some of these.

Best,
Ron

ruthmc
01-19-2006, 08:23 AM
Yep. Last week half the class was devoted to 'em. I have a big impressive bruise over my collarbone from some over-enthusiastic grinding of people's knuckles into said collarbone..

Next time I have threatened to wear American football style padding ;)

Ruth

Amir Krause
01-19-2006, 08:33 AM
Depends on your Sensei and style.

In the style I learn there are a couple of chokes that are used as the main part of a technique, and a few techniques that have some partial choke in them. However, none of those techniques are considered basic or primary (On second thought, I doubt any technique could answer the second criteria in a general manner).

Amir

senshincenter
01-19-2006, 09:22 AM
I agree with Amir here - depends on your sensei and style. There is no way we should really say "yes" or "no" to this type of question - I feel.

Additionally, it also depends upon whether or not you belong to a tradition where Aikido is understood as a list of techniques (a "one through ten" kind of thing) or whether Aikido is understood more in terms of principles/concepts. If you belong to the latter line of thought/practice, you will see lots of everything - not just ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, shiho-nage, not just chokes, etc. Moreover, you will see "basic" techniques (which will not be experienced by you as "basic" in the same way that they are experienced by the formerly mentioned practitioner) being done in many different ways (ways that have nothing to do with stylistic preferences but that have to do with an internally consistent combining and re-combining of principles).

Thus, in some lines of Aikido, you will never see any chokes being used defensively and/or in response to any type of aggression. What often passes for a "choke" in these lines of thought/practice is the "attack" Kubishime Katate-dori. However, in my opinion, one should not feel that in learning to offer this cue to Nage that one is learning how to choke someone out and/or even choke effectively. It is the same thing with Tsuki - practicing Tsuki over and over for many many years is not going to make one a proficient striker. Aikido "attacks" are best understood as cues and/or as energy prints. When they are understood as energy prints, one can see the core element of a given tactic and all of its variations - which is good for training and necessary for training within idealized conditions - but one does not thereby learn the specificities of a given tactic. It is the specificities of a given tactic that make it effective and applicable outside of idealized training conditions.

Thus, when asked, "Are there any choking techniques (which is more than the energy print of chokes) in Aikido?"

Answer: For some, yes. For others, no.

Here's another shot (video) of another choke example - it's the last technique in the series:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/ushirowaza.html

dmv

kokyu
01-19-2006, 09:36 AM
I have never practiced this before, but I was wondering whether there is a move when someone holds a blade (instead of the forearm) against the front of your neck? All the choke escapes I've learned involve some sliding or scraping against the chokehold, but this probably won't work with a knife to your neck.

Dominic Toupin
01-19-2006, 11:03 AM
In the Yoseikan aikido curriculum, we have defense against Ushiro Katate Eri Jime Dori in the Te Hodoki part. We practices a lot of judo-like shime waza too...

RebeccaM
01-19-2006, 11:33 AM
I've seen a yonkyo done from a blade to the neck type of attack. You really have to get control of the knife hand, and you probably will get cut. Hopefully not deep enough to be a real problem though.

Ron Tisdale
01-19-2006, 12:21 PM
For the blade issue, first immobalize the hand holding the knife. Then do whatever. Good luck... ;)

David, liked your post (again). One of the reason's I recommended Daito ryu is because my minimal experience of the main line is that they insist on actually being competant in the attack (within the prescribed 'engergy print', but still competant). My experience has been that if I do not defend myself against uke's atempt at a choke, I go to sleep. That is one of the things I really like about keiko in that organization.

Best,
Ron

Steven
01-19-2006, 01:15 PM
Hi Steven,

That is a really nifty Daito ryu choke. In the Goshin jutsu portion, I believe, against a standard judo grip attack. Really nice choke... :) For anyone interested in chokes and aikido, I suggest you look to the source. Daito ryu teaches both chokes as attacks from uke, and chokes as finishing techniques against attacks as shite. Many styles of aikido have some of these.

Best,
Ron

Hmm ... choke being done by Aikido 8th dan shihan = Aikido Choke. :D

.. and if memory serves me correctly, it was from yokomen uchi. Still can't quite figure out how the heck he did that. LOL

Ron Tisdale
01-19-2006, 01:28 PM
:) Go figure...the same choke in Daito ryu and Aikido...who'd a thunk it?!

Yokomenuchi? On a guess, from aihamni, I'd tenkan-yoke-atemi 180 degrees, cutting down on uke's striking arm, feed the arm to my striking hand, lead uke to their front as I start to go behind, left hand goes into their dogi by their neck, fore-arm over their shoulder, step behind, right hand grabs the dogi over their other shoulder, kick out their right knee for good measure, and say good nite. :) But hey, that's just me...Shihan probably did something completely different!

Best,
Ron

Lyle Bogin
01-19-2006, 01:53 PM
Was O'sensei in his later super-aiki years still into performing chokes?

Or perhaps a better question is: did he stop demonstrating them and when was it?

senshincenter
01-19-2006, 02:00 PM
For the blade issue, first immobalize the hand holding the knife. Then do whatever. Good luck... ;)

David, liked your post (again). One of the reason's I recommended Daito ryu is because my minimal experience of the main line is that they insist on actually being competant in the attack (within the prescribed 'engergy print', but still competant). My experience has been that if I do not defend myself against uke's atempt at a choke, I go to sleep. That is one of the things I really like about keiko in that organization.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,

That makes sense to me. There is indeed a interdependent relationship between energy prints and technical specificities - such that if you know the specificities you can offer a better energy print in training, etc.

Ron, in the "go to sleep choke" you mentioned, I take it that that is NOT the common Kubishime Katate-dori - that energy print you see from the ever-growing-more-standardized Aikikai syllabus - is it? I ask that because, for me, "going to sleep" is definitely part of choke attack, but we have some folks thinking that the aforemented Aikido cue/energy print is a choke though it has no capcity at all to provide the "going to sleep" threat. Wouldn't you agree that that seems a bit "off"?

dmv

Ron Tisdale
01-19-2006, 02:21 PM
Absolutely seems off. The energy print I was thinking of is:

Uke goes for a standing cross-choke grip on the dogi, then hip throw, then complete the choke from side control.

Shite uses sokomen step, double atemi to short ribs/pressure point above solor plexas on the sternum, controls the elbows, steps back / body change and throws uke while retaining an arm, and pins them.

I haven't seen this taught in 'aikikai aikido' as yet...but interestingly enough Steven Miranda has just mentioned a different choke taught in some schools in the yoshinkan, which I became familiar with in Daito ryu...he has a good picture of one of the finishing positions for it above. It puts me to sleep... ;) The danger here is that I don't want to infer these prints don't exist in 'aikikai' schools at all. I'm sure they do...I just haven't seen it yet. I know the print is in yoseikan as well. I'm willing to bet it's been seen in Nishio Sensei's aikido and he was in the aikikai.

I tend to think of that 'other' energy print as an attempt at a strangle.

Best,
Ron

Keith R Lee
01-19-2006, 03:22 PM
I don't know if Aikido is necessarily the art I would be pursueing if I was interested in chokes. The uke/shite relationship would seem (to me) to cloud one's perception when it came time to actually perform a choke. Because when you attempt to choke someone, and they actively don't want to be choked, they will do some crazy/strange things. Or even beyond that, if the person being choked has any practice in grappling arts, they are going to be out of it and on you like white on rice.

All right, please be aware that I am speaking delicately here and mean no disrespect to anyone and am discussing techniques only. In the picture Steven linked to it appears that Parker shihan is applying a standing variation of a sliding collar choke (am I correct here Steven?). I have had the same choke applied to me (and I want to say one time by Parker shihan, the last time he was in Canada with Terada shihan) by other Aikidoka. While I initially thought they were powerful, formidble techniques, I seriously have my doubts now after two years of experience with BJJ and Sambo.

In a system (like BJJ or Sambo) that has sophisticated choking methods and systems that are tested against resisting opponents, it becomes clear that chokes are:

A) diffuclt to pull off
B) someone with a modicum of training in grappling can shut down many chokes
C) there are a select few chokes that are "high" percantge, meaning they can be performed against resisting opponents reliably. The chokes I experienced in Aikido were never any of the chokes that are "high" percentage in grappling arts except perhaps for a RNC.

All that is to say, I would rather spend time in Aikido practicing things that I think are its strong points: timing, movement, balance, wrist controls, etc. than practice something that I think is not fully developed. Again, all IMHO.

One thing I'm curious about Steven, and I hope you don't mind me asking -if so please ignore me, is how your perceptions of Aikido have developed with your progress in BJJ? I seem to recall Justin Grant mentioning to me that you were fairly high ranked in BJJ. Do these aikido chokes stand up to measure for you? They might be good knowledge to have but are they the type of thing you would attempt when rolling with someone? (ie, cut-arm down, spin opponent around, apply reverse sliding lapel choke, and have that person actually tap?) Even further, what about no-gi rolling?

Charlie
01-19-2006, 03:40 PM
Here is some more of Parker Shihan in a choking mood!

http://myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Ikkajo.wmv

That was during the Yoshinkan all Japan Enbu Taikai.

Parker Shihan is the senior student of Kiyoyuki Terada Hanshi. Besides Gozo Shioda sensei, Terada sensei is the only other Yoshinkan instructor to have studied with Osensei...and his Aikido reflects that early connection with the Daito Ryu/Aikibudo days. Enough so that you can see a difference between Yoshinkan Honbu techniques and Terada honbu techniques.

Subsequently, both Terada sensei and Parker sensei teach chokes [and not just the energy print that Dave and Ron are talking about!!!

Charlie

Keith R Lee
01-19-2006, 03:59 PM
Charles,

Just to be clear, I think it's pretty obvious that I am aware of who Parker shihan and Terada shihan are and what they teach. I've taken uke for both of them. I'm not calling them, or their credentials, into question. I'm concerned about the techniques and how they hold up to systems with more advanced choking methods and pedagogy. While it is interesting to see the chokes being applied in a DR/Aiki setting, is it worth the bother when there are more complete choking systems available?

Charlie
01-19-2006, 04:27 PM
Keith,

My post wasn't in response to you. It takes me a reeeally long time to type and your post got ahead of mine!!! I only read yours after I had posted mine. I added the bio stuff because a lot of people have no idea who Parker or Terada sensei are.

If I may comment on your remarks...

You stated that even in BJJ and Sambo it is hard to apply a reliable choke...well that is precisely what I have been taught by Parker sensei. It is difficult to apply a choke no matter what the art unless the set up is spot on. And as you stated...that is partly why you study Aikido...

...In a system (like BJJ or Sambo) that has sophisticated choking methods and systems that are tested against resisting opponents, it becomes clear that chokes are:

A) diffuclt to pull off
B) someone with a modicum of training in grappling can shut down many chokes
C) there are a select few chokes that are "high" percantge, meaning they can be performed against resisting opponents reliably. The chokes I experienced in Aikido were never any of the chokes that are "high" percentage in grappling arts except perhaps for a RNC.

All that is to say, I would rather spend time in Aikido practicing things that I think are its strong points: timing, movement, balance, wrist controls, etc. than practice something that I think is not fully developed. Again, all IMHO...

The choke is a finishing point that without the proper set up is highly unlikely. If you train against any one type of technique it SHOULD be difficult to apply that technique on you. Hence, when you make reference to questioning the effectiveness while 'rolling' with an opponent with or with out a gi is out of context [IMO] because that is precisely what you train to look for and look to reverse. It then becomes a question of who has trained better and/or who is going to make the first mistake.

regards,

Charlie
01-19-2006, 08:24 PM
nice choke David...I missed it in your post the first time. I love those all body stretches!

senshincenter
01-19-2006, 08:38 PM
If I may, don't forget the real choke is at the bottom of the final throw - just a variation on the rear naked choke. The stretch and the throw are just there to set it up. We have uke tap when on the back being stretched just to make note for nage that all things are in place - not because he/she is being choked out at that point.

Mike Fugate
01-19-2006, 10:52 PM
Yes, there are chokes in Aikido. Does not mean however that their are chokes in what your being taught as Aikido. When ever you see a techniques in Aikido such as a throw, that isnt the WHOLE things or the end of it. You dont see it alot in demos, but once the Uke is down, that is when the chokes would be applied, or bones/joints severed. I.E...If you were on the street and you threw/took down an assailant, on a hard-real surfcace such as a sidewalk or road they wouldnt get up as fast as on a mat. So then it is there when most of the submission techniques are used, although there are quite a few while standing up too. Just because you may not always see them, doesnt mean they arent there :ki

Lee Mulgrew
01-20-2006, 05:30 AM
choke holds are just an extension of moves like kiri-otoshi and certain koshinage moves as well as others. any time that you can move behind the uke they are vulnerable to a choke hold, we practice them often. I know that O'sensei used them as he taught them to Master Andre Noquet (8th Dan) who in turn taught them to his students and so on down the line to us. :)

Ron Tisdale
01-20-2006, 07:38 AM
Hi Keith,

I'm not as experienced in grappling these days, and my wrestling days are long over, so I think we better wait for Steven to speak about his experience 'rolling'. I will say though, that:

A) gotta get point a to get to points b, c and d (d being the choke)

B) A is to break uke's balance on the first contact (or even before if you can set it up)

C) If I was in a contest with you and we were wearing dogi, and I was able to get the choke on, do you think you could escape from the position Steven was in?

In other words, many people have a problem with aikido as a delivery system. So it's not the choke you are questioning, but the ability to deliver it? Just to clear up my understanding.

Under optimal circumstances, sure, I think the hypothetical technique I described (or a close variation) could work. Outside of a dojo I would shorten everything I could, otpting for body changes rather than pivots where-ever possible and striking rather than allowing uke to block where ever I could. If possible, rather than pivoting on the strike from an attacker, I would enter. But that would require good timing / not as competant an attacker (to pull it off).

The last thing is, I have never made the case (and will not now) that aikido (or Daito ryu) is the optimum art to study as a delivery system for chokes (or anything else) in a MMA environment. But for plenty of other situations, I have sufficient confidence in aikido regarding applying the chokes described.

Best,
Ron

Steven
01-20-2006, 10:52 AM
Hey ... I resemble that uke ... LOL!



Here is some more of Parker Shihan in a choking mood!

http://myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Ikkajo.wmv

That was during the Yoshinkan all Japan Enbu Taikai.

Parker Shihan is the senior student of Kiyoyuki Terada Hanshi. Besides Gozo Shioda sensei, Terada sensei is the only other Yoshinkan instructor to have studied with Osensei...and his Aikido reflects that early connection with the Daito Ryu/Aikibudo days. Enough so that you can see a difference between Yoshinkan Honbu techniques and Terada honbu techniques.

Subsequently, both Terada sensei and Parker sensei teach chokes [and not just the energy print that Dave and Ron are talking about!!!

Charlie

Ethan Weisgard
01-30-2006, 02:26 PM
Charles,

Great clip of Parker Shihan!

This is off topic, but I have a question. I would like to know about the techniques that are shown where Parker Shihan initiates (or leads out his uke) with his tegatana. Is this a traditional form in Yoshinkan Aikido? My teacher, Morihiro Saito Sensei, made a point of this initiating form when doing shomen uchi techniques. He said that the kihon form called for nage to initiate, in just the way Parker Shihan is shown doing. Saito Sensei would call the techniques done where uke attacks with a downward shomen uchi as being ki no nagare.

Back on topic: We trained chokes under Saito Sensei quite a bit, in the henka waza of for instance Irimi Nage, Ikkyo, Kaiten Nage, and in different Kokyu Nage forms.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Edwin Neal
01-30-2006, 03:06 PM
i too have had the honor of practicing and being uke for shihans parker and terada, and i have seen photos of Osensei performing chokes so yes there are chokes in aikido... some "styles" (hate that term) do not however teach them... and they can be diffucult to "get" but i think the aikido set up helps you flow into a choke smoothly with out giving it away to uke...

Charlie
01-30-2006, 03:44 PM
Ethan, I thank you for the kind remarks. I wish I could say that I did more than snip and cut footage that was shot by someone else, but alas, that is all I did!

This is off topic, but I have a question. I would like to know about the techniques that are shown where Parker Shihan initiates (or leads out his uke) with his tegatana. Is this a traditional form in Yoshinkan Aikido…

As to your question, Yoshinkan Aikido teaches Shomen-uchi Ikkajo kihon techniques in an omote and ura fashion [specifically labeled Shomen-uchi Ikkajo Osae ichi and ni respectfully]. In the first form [Ikkajo ichi/omote], Sh'te/Tori always initiates the movement. When Parker Sensei teaches he always makes it a point to bring this out and in fact comments that there are attacks found in [Yoshinkan] Aikido!

The way Parker sensei teaches this technique is slightly different than the way Yoshinkan Honbu dojo presents it. Parker sensei teaches it the way that his instructor Kiyoyuki Terada sensei teaches it. That is: the movement is presented as a rising attack from a basic kamae stance aimed at Uke's face [causing uke to then attempt to block the movement]. Yoshinkan Honbu dojo's movement is a more familiar overhead shomen strike aimed at Uke's forehead or top of the head. In essence, two distinctly different movements that are aimed at similar points on uke that feel very different in there application and projection.

However, despite the differences in attacks from Sh'te, the form itself is a traditional cornerstone for all of Yoshinkan Aikido.

My teacher, Morihiro Saito Sensei, made a point of this initiating form when doing shomen uchi techniques. He said that the kihon form called for nage to initiate, in just the way Parker Shihan is shown doing. Saito Sensei would call the techniques done where uke attacks with a downward shomen uchi as being ki no nagare…

Interestingly enough, Gozo Shioda sensei and Kiyoyuki Terada sensei are the only Yoshinkan instructors to have studied with Osensei [although it can probably be argued that Shioda sensei's tenure was probably longer - I surely don't know]. It would be interesting to trace where and when a difference in application began [if indeed one does exist] since you say that Saito sensei's approach is similar to what Terada/Parker sensei are teaching.

Any way, I hope that answers your question,

Charles

Steven
01-30-2006, 05:24 PM
SNIP ..... In the picture Steven linked ..... SNIP

Dude ... Gomen nasai for not replying sooner. I completely missed this post. Ahem!

First, I never once ever claimed to be ranked in BJJ. The fact is, I am not. My training in BJJ or Aiki-grappling as some Canadians would call it, was through my teacher Mits Yamashita Sensei as well as others who trained directly under Rorion and Rixon Gracie as well as Ralph and Rigen (sp) Machado. At our dojo, we did not grapple for sport or compitition, but rather, for self-defense purposes. Mr Lyons, a student of the Machado's who was graded to shodan and given authority to teach, was teaching BJJ in our dojo at the end of our Aikido classes. So I was further exposed to BJJ in this regard. I did this for a number of years. Ranking in BJJ was not on my list of priorities. Learning the skills is where mine and many others had our focus.

As for that particular choke, I had no idea it was coming. We were in the midst of jiyuwaza and I was striking with yokomen. Typically, when I strike at Parker Sensei, I give him 100% as that is what he expects and I've learned it doesn't hurt as much. :D Next thing I know, I'm being choke out. It happened way too fast for me to even figure out what the heck happened.

Also consider that the first dojo we were in was was a Judo dojo headed by a Kodokan 7th dan. He frequently used the aikido class to demonstrate all kinds of cool choke holds, throws and pins. So not only did we have experience with the BJJ, we also had Judo. All done after regular Aikido classes.

As for the BJJ and the Aikido that I learned, I found that the principles were pretty much all the same. Just one standing and the other on the ground. When I would listern to Rorion talk about the basics and principles, I couldn't help thinking to myself, "Hey, we do that in aikido." We always tried incorporating aikido locks into our ground game as well and remembering that using strength was a waste of good energy. I grappled with Rorion at the college Yamashita Sensei teaches at and learned this lesson well. I'm a slow learner and also got submitted by Royce Gracie who set me up. I was a triffle bit over confident and paid the price. :D Now that I think about it, I was calling the Machado's my daddy too. I spent a lot of time looking like this -> :crazy: <- from being choked out and arm barred. LOL!

Unfortunately for me, my ground game has suffered as of late due to the lack of training. Against a full-time grappler I would most likely be tied up in knots. However I'm pretty sure I could hold my own should I have to really defend myself. Let's hope that day never comes to pass.

In regards to Justin .. we met back in 2000 at a clinic in Southern California featuring Chida Sensei. Justin had the opportunity to see me do a bit of ground work during my enbu. I don't recall doing any chokes though. I was in quite a bit of pain and could barely move as the osteoarthritis in my back was in rare forum, but fortunately, I did things I had been doing for 16+ years, at that time, so the movement was natural; and I had a great uke. Please send my regards to Justin if you still train with, or talk with him.

Well -- that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ethan Weisgard
01-31-2006, 02:46 AM
Charles

Thanks for your reply. It answers my question very nicely.

Off topic: Regarding nage/shite's initiating shomen uchi from below to above (towards the face): I believe it has to do with the principle of sen sen no sen. This can get you into a lengthy discussion about attacks in aikido! The condensed version ( in my opinion) is that since you have a designated attacker and defender, then nage/shite is not making an unprovoked attack, and hereby breaking the priciple of aikido being defensive by nature. Nage is merely drawing out the physical energy of the attack, that already is inherent in uke.


In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Edwin Neal
01-31-2006, 03:04 AM
seems like some style of karate says something like there is no first attack in karate... would it be fair to say that aikido attacks the attack of your attacker...

ian
01-31-2006, 08:28 AM
I think it's wrong to think of aikido as a 'grappling art'. We generally have to maintain more distance than most grapplers to prevent a severe weight/strength advantage. It's more about timing and coordinated movement - thus comparing it to wrestling in terms of delivery I think is inappropriate. I've used chokes twice in real situations and they are extremely effective. Both times the attacker was facing the other direction so it was very easy to 'deliver' (I was stopping someone else getting hurt) and would have been easy to complete (to knock-out) if necessary; they were incapacitated in about 1-2 seconds.

I think choking is an extremely useful technique. In many aikido techniques uke can turn away from you to nullify the technique (irimi-nage, ikkyo etc etc) - I always teach my students to think immediately of a choke when someone turns their back to you - they are devestating if done properly (i.e. ensuring balance is also taken and the choke is held on carotid arteries rather than trachea).

P.S. top wrestlers do LOTS of neck exercises - so obviously choking them is a little harder.

Ethan Weisgard
01-31-2006, 08:32 AM
In reply to Edwin Neal:

I would say that in a traditonal martial art, your moral base is such that you would not attack an innocent human being. In actual encounters, when the role of aggressor is already clearly established, then I think that the defender may need to choose to "draw out" the aggressor's attack - sen-sen no sen.

Lyle Bogin
01-31-2006, 10:21 AM
Can anyone answer my original question? Or refer me to one of the articles on aikido journal or something.... Did O'sensei perform the chokes from daito-ryu in his instruction in pre or post war forms of his art? Did he eliminate all chokes? Reserve them for certain students?

I am not trying to ask whether chokes SHOULD be taught. If you like chokes, do chokes. Just curious from a historical perspective...

Roy Dean
01-31-2006, 12:31 PM
Keith,

I've found that the chokes I've been exposed to in aikido/aiki-jujutsu are more of a positional exercise leading into a counter technique than an actual technique in and of itself.

I've found hand/arm chokes to be very difficult to actually apply on a resisting opponent (I'm not including triangle chokes or head and arm chokes). In fact, only this year, as a brown belt, have I been able to pull of basic choking techniques consistently. Before, I may have been able to get an occasional choke, but it usually relied on a mistake by my partner, or just being in the right place at the right time- very different than setting up a choke and laying the trap.

The biggest breakthough in choking, for me, has been correcting small details. For a basic palm up/palm up choke from the guard, inserting your hand deeply into their collar and then waiting to insert your other hand until the moment is right (getting greedy and trying to apply a choke right away is often a telegraphed attack). Precise hand positioning, keeping my elbows close to centerline when setting the choke, and keeping my hands relaxed until the second of application all help increase the odds of getting the tap.

For such a "basic" technique, I've found chokes to be very difficult. Armlocks, leglocks, and triangles are far easier to get, IMHO, as your opponent generally has to only block one of your arms to block the choke. The precision required for a clean choke can be thwarted quickly by a wary opponent (or even a tucked chin), so an attack or sweep is generally necessary to distract your opponent and insert your second hand.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

www.royharris.com
www.jiaiaikido.com

Ethan Weisgard
02-01-2006, 06:54 AM
Lyle,

In answer to your question: the closest I can get is that Saito Sensei taught chokes. Saito Sensei always said that he taught - to the best of his ability - exactly what he was taught by O-Sensei.
This is the closest I can get, since I didn't train with O-Sensei :)

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Edwin Neal
02-01-2006, 07:34 AM
I disagree Ian, i believe aikido is more properly categorized as a grappling art, esp when we can trace so much of it to traditional jujutsu...we must maintain proper ma-ai for proper execution, but many times that is very close distance... for example blending 'hip to hip' in the basic tenkan movements... body to body head to shoulder for the classic kokyu-nage etc... wrestling uses timing and coordinated movement as well...

Edwin Neal
02-01-2006, 07:39 AM
true Ethan, but once we draw the attack... i feel we can 'attack' that attack thinking of it like this has helped me in application of some techniques... it is also an interesting 'parallel' with Bruce Lee's stop hit idea... instead of waiting and letting the kata dori attacker seize your shoulder 'attack' that arm to apply ikkyo... just how i think of it sometimes...

Ethan Weisgard
02-02-2006, 06:05 AM
true Ethan, but once we draw the attack... i feel we can 'attack' that attack thinking of it like this has helped me in application of some techniques... it is also an interesting 'parallel' with Bruce Lee's stop hit idea... instead of waiting and letting the kata dori attacker seize your shoulder 'attack' that arm to apply ikkyo... just how i think of it sometimes...

Edwin,

(Going off-topic again!), It sounds like what you are talking about is what we call "Ki no Nagare", which is the higher level of technique. In Kihon, we let uke make the grab, and work from there. The next level - Ju-Tai - (flexible), is where we do the technique right at the moment of contact. The third level is Ryu Tai, or Ki no Nagare, where you lead the opponent when he comes to make the grab, before contact is made. This is the way Saito Sensei taught things.

In Aiki,

Ethan

jmcrae
02-04-2006, 01:15 PM
A question for Roy Dean (based on post 42)...

Aloha, Roy:

I noticed that you teach a grappling class at your Aikido dojo. When you teach grappling there, do you teach it as straight BJJ, or do you integrate the BJJ techniques into an aikido framework? Since I am a practitioner of JKD, BJJ, and Aikido myself, I am curious about how you bring your BJJ and JKD knowledge to bear on your Aikido training. In my own experience, many of my Aikido instructors were quite hostile to the idea of me teaching anything but traditional Aikido in my Aikido classes (while nobody ever objects to what you teach in a JKD or BJJ class, so long as it works :) ).

Temet nosce,
Jim

Roy Dean
02-06-2006, 10:59 AM
Aloha, Jim:

When I teach the grappling class at Jiai, I generally teach it as straight BJJ. Occasionally, I'll throw in a kotegaeshi or similar wristlock, but from the perspective of specific techniques, it's mainstream BJJ.

However, I do try to take an "Aiki" approach during instruction, blending one technique into the next, in a sequential flow. This flow of techniques usually incorporates some form of resistance into the sequence (i.e. if your opponent postures up and resists your attempts at Kimura from the guard, follow his resistance directly into a hip bump). Also emphasized in this "aiki" approach are the weak angles to off balance your opponent and the importance of kokyu in sidemount postures.

Most Aikido instructors I've trained under have found mixing in techniques from other arts into their classes distasteful, and rarely been open to it. Jeff Sodeman, the head instructor at Jiai Aikido, is quite open minded in regards to other techniques and other arts complementing and supplementing Aikido, hence my Saturday grappling class. He adds some innovative options/techniques into his Aikido classes, but it never deviates too far from the norm. Separate classes for separate arts, to prevent any kind of murky martial soup...

It's great that you get to train under Burton Richardson! I've always admired Burton for his skills, breadth of knowledge, and refreshing honesty. A friend of mine trained under him for several years and many of Burton's perspectives opened my eyes...

Best,

Roy Dean

nathansnow
02-06-2006, 11:31 AM
I don't think that you'll find any "true aikido" chokes, but there are plenty out there. Just look back to daito-ryu jujitsu, they have plenty. You can also find plenty in judo books or videos. Chokes are very effective and usually not to complicated to learn and incorporate... just be careful.... when they're applied correctly, it takes very little force and very little time to choke someone completely out!

Good luck!

Nate

Robert Cheshire
02-14-2006, 08:13 AM
I know the print is in yoseikan as well.

Anyone else ever notice that Ron is a lexicon of great knowledge???

We do have several chokes in Yoseikan. We have a kata that has over 20. We have grasp where you defend against a choke, throws where you end up in a choke, throws where you choke uke AS you are throwing him/her (our U.S. Technical director has choked a few people so well they have to tap while in midair, me included).

senshincenter
02-14-2006, 08:36 AM
Anyone else ever notice that Ron is a lexicon of great knowledge???

Yup. :)

Ron Tisdale
02-14-2006, 09:44 AM
Yup. :)

:o You guys are making me blush...

Best,
Ron

James Davis
02-14-2006, 10:34 AM
Anyone else ever notice that Ron is a lexicon of great knowledge???


Is that an evil Transformer? :p

Lyle Bogin
02-14-2006, 03:40 PM
I was just reminded of once when I tripped on my hakama while taking ukemi for Imaizumi Sensei and he put me in what I'd call a "choke-kyunage". I was exhaling at the time and actually made a chokey noise (embarassing a little) and he shrugged and said "he didn't go down, so I choked him".

Robert Cheshire
02-15-2006, 07:34 AM
That reminds me of one of my better aiki moments. We had a college judo player that liked to come to our class when judo wasn't in session (we have a college and community class combined) and work out. After class the judoka wanted to play a little bit with me; we started from the traditional judo grasp, the judoka came in for a drop seoi nage (I knew this was the favorite/go to throw) and I stepped back so I wouoldn't be thrown then stepped back in with a collar choke.

The funny part I found out about later was that my sensei and another one of our senior students called both moves before either of us did them (senior student called the drop seoi nage and my sensei called the choke).

I mentioned our technical director doing chokes on us earlier; when we are just working on them (not being choked in the air) he does them so well you can't feel the pressure of the choke and don't realize if he has it or is setting up for it as he instructs the others that are watching it until the room starts to get narrow and you think "oh crap, he's about to choke me out!" tap tap tap

jester
02-15-2006, 09:49 AM
What did he do as you choked him?

There are still a few things you can do if that happens.

Drop Seoi Nage is a killer on the knees.

Good reading of his technique!! :D

Robert Cheshire
02-15-2006, 10:57 AM
After tapping I was asked "how did you do that.....is that legal in a match?"

The Judo Sensei at the time only taught a few techniques. From what I understand she taught them very well, but, just a few none-the-less. Her dad (the name slips me) is an international level referee.

When I was in my mid 20's I liked drop seoi nage. Funny how when you get a little older (mid 30's now) you don't like taking the pounding throws as much as you did when you were younger! I still like it, but, don't use it that much anymore.

Tim: What part of TX are you in?

heyoka
02-15-2006, 01:01 PM
just started aikido and was wondering if there were any choking techniques in aikido? possibly taught at higher levels

Yes, they're called kubijime. Where I study we train with them semi-regularly.

Sorry if someone already answered as such.

:)

Edwin Neal
02-15-2006, 04:35 PM
chokes in aikido... try these...

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=1101#1101