Martial Attitude

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[ian]

I'll keep this brief:

What is martial attitude to you?

How do you develop martial attitude in others?

Is aikido realistic as a self-defence without martial attitude?

Ian

[Nick]

martial spirit, or bushin, would probably be explained as spiritual strength... to have "a smile that can win the hearts of children, but anger that could frighten a tiger" as Funakoshi would put it... how to develop it in others? Develop it for yourself and teach by example... as far as aikido... I'd say no, if not practiced in the right mindset, it does just become a dance... we should train both to perfect our technique and strengthen our bushin...

Nick

[mj]

1) Tolerance. (Because of the consequences if you don't have it.)

2) Encourage, praise or berate them. Circumstance, really.

3) Is anything? It's all in the mind friend.

[AikidoSteve]

Ian-

I'm not certain if there is just one answer to each of your questions, but the first thing that popped into my mind when I read the question "What is martial attitude" was the idea to be "without fear". For example, it seems to me that Aikido technique involves quite a bit of entering. That translates into entering without fear. And for me, fear - in one form or another - can be a technique killer. This also applies off the mat as well. Under fearful circumstances one tends to react rather than to act. In fact, I have always felt that fear was an enemy to be confronted with the point of your sword.

I'm not certain about developing a martial attitude in others when I'm still developing my own.

Given that Aikido is a realistic self-defense, by (my) definition, if a martial attitude is entering without fear then Aikido would not be complete without it

[AikidoNate]

In the same sense that you spoke of acting without fear, I think part of the true core of aikido is pure action, free of reaction, free of fighting. When you fight with someone, you make yourself dependent on them. You are not in full control, your strength is dependent on their weakness. Your actions become reactions, your life becomes dependent on theirs. Aikido teaches us not to fight, to act purely, rather than in reaction or relation to another person. Learning to be independent of circumstances means letting go of fear. It means learning to be at peace regardless of the world around you, because your peace is not a reaction, it is your pure being. And that, to me, is one of the greatest parts of Aikido, and an important part of the martial attitude.

[Sid]

The term fudoshin - immovable spirit - comes to mind.

Sid

[Brian Vickery]

Originally posted by ian
I'll keep this brief:

What is martial attitude to you?

How do you develop martial attitude in others?

Is aikido realistic as a self-defence without martial attitude?

Ian

Ian,

Here's a book that touches on what you are looking for:

"REAL FIGHTING: Adrenal Stress Conditioning Through Scenario
Based Training" by Peyton Quinn

I admit that it doesn't sound very 'aiki', but the info & experiences
discussed by Mr. Quinn are very applicable to aikido training,
especially in cultivating the correct attitude for self defense.
(or as Mr. Quinn puts it: "Getting your mind right")

Regards,

[Jim23]

Check this guy out:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/

Very interesting. I couldn't get all the video samples to work, but the "gun disarming" one was a bit different. I liked the one where he pretends to faint (that's what it looked like to me), then gets the guy's arm with his feet.

Jim23

[Erik]

I'm perplexed by these questions Ian but I'll take a stab at it.

What is martial attitude to you?

The following are from Merriam Webster and I took the definitions I thought fit best.

Martial - of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior

Attitude - a mental position with regard to a fact or state

So I take it to mean a mental position suited for war.

How do you develop martial attitude in others?

Personally, I'm not interested. I'd rather people had a different attitude all things considered. Something along the lines of a mental position suited for peace seems preferable to me.

Is aikido realistic as a self-defence without martial attitude?

Who needs a martial art for self defense? I'll take 2 helpings of street smarts over years in a dojo any time. Fighting is a last recourse and there are often many options before that happens.

I'm not sure I interpreted your question correctly though.

[Erik]

Originally posted by Jim23
Check this guy out:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/

Very interesting. I couldn't get all the video samples to work, but the "gun disarming" one was a bit different. I liked the one where he pretends to faint (that's what it looked like to me), then gets the guy's arm with his feet.

Jim23

I have one of his knife technique videos and there's some interesting stuff in it.

[mj]

Hi Jim.
(Thanks very much for the birthday card last month!!)
I downloaded those files too.
What a load of crap.
Excuse my (Canadian) French.
Really.
Of course, this is not a comment on you, or what you look at on the net, but really... Utter Crap.
Some people (,not you of course,) will buy/believe anything. Now I'm going to watch The Invisible Man with Vincent Ventresca
Hehe.

[Erik]

Originally posted by mj
What a load of crap.
Excuse my (Canadian) French.
Really.
Of course, this is not a comment on you, or what you look at on the net, but really... Utter Crap.
Some people (,not you of course,) will buy/believe anything. Now I'm going to watch The Invisible Man with Vincent Ventresca
Hehe.

Wow! And he didn't even go into the psychic stuff on which I would agree with you.

Don't discount him so readily. There's good stuff in there.

[Jim23]

Originally posted by mj
Hi Jim.
(Thanks very much for the birthday card last month!!)
No problem you old fart (you're younger than I am, by the way) ;)

I downloaded those files too.
What a load of crap.
Excuse my (Canadian) French.
Really.
Of course, this is not a comment on you, or what you look at on the net, but really... Utter Crap.
Some people (,not you of course,) will buy/believe anything. Now I'm going to watch The Invisible Man with Vincent Ventresca
Hehe.
mj,

Take a look at what George Ledyard has to say about this guy (hope you don't mind George).

By the way, I like how you say crrrrrraaaapppp!!!! :):)

If you want a real humbling but educational experience take a look at Mr. Vasiliev up in Toronto, Canada ( http://www.russianmartialart.com ) . I would dearly love to get to train with this man, he is clearly a master of unique skill. He is a former instructor of what the Russians refer to as the “Systema”. It was only taught to the Russian Special Ops folks like Stalin’s body guards and the Spetsnaz commandos. Before you prejudge this stuff you should take a look. It was totally different from what I had expected when I ordered some of his tapes (every one is worth twice what they ask). The Systema is aikido without any of the form. Every thing is done with no set postures, even designed to be done from positions of great disadvantage. Their training has no set form either. It is basically a form of jyu waza and randori which gets faster as you progress. I have been working off some of Mr. Vasiliev’s tapes and they can help you immensely with your Aikido I believe. The level of his relaxation is an inspiration yet he is quite effective. This stuff is very compatible with Aikido. And Mr. Vasiliev is a real gentleman. I had occasion to correspond with him and he was extremely gracious. The only problem here is that there are virtually no qualified instructors around who teach this. There is an American teacher on the East coast who teaches some of the same stuff but is with a different organization (ROSS Russian Martial Arts) but I have only seen his website ( http://www.amerross.com/main.html )

__________________
George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA

I recently came across a very interesting style referred to as the "Systema" which is a Russian martial art. Mr. Vasiliyev is located in Canada and is a master of this art which I would describe as Aikido but with no set form at all. One of the films that he offers for sale on his website (all are worth having) is on multiple attackers. If you want to open up your concept of randori, get that film! He at one point does an entire randori from his back on the ground against three attackers! Anyway, their method is to be completely freestyle, the attacks can be anything. But they run the randori slower for the purpose of saftey. As there is nothing formailzed about the techniques the falls can be quite dangerous, escpecially for the knees. Also, the strikes are done in a way that everybody knwos there was a hit but they are pulled to prevent abuse of the partner. So we (as Aikidoka) can do full speed, full power randori. They are completely formless but need to tone down the application a bit for safety. (With his most advanced students the amount of toning down Mr. Vasiliyev does seems to be fairly slight) Check out http://www.russianmartialart.com for this wonderful teacher.

__________________
George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA


Jim23

[Erik]

Originally posted by Jim23
Snipped!


Jim, thanks for posting that. It was at his suggestion, in this forum nonetheless, that I took a look at the man. He's definitely got something.

[mj]

Hi again, I only meant that the clips were crap, I wasn't making a generalisation.
Obviously I would have to study the art for a while before saying it was crap :D
Peace

[Jim23]

mj,

Nice try.;)

Anyway ... I meant to ask you why you switched from judo to aikido?

Was it a big adjustment?

Jim23

[mj]

Hi Jim.
I was lucky enough to finally see pure Judo for what it is (and love it), after a long time doing it. So I hung around for a while trying to encourage others.
Then, to my shame, I decided I wanted to learn something else, too - for myself.
So I started aikido. However, aikido is harder to learn, because you never get to DO IT against someone who has no intentions of letting you, as in judo. In Judo you always know if it really worked. I don't mean this in any way other than factual, though. There is no joy or ego in a technique done properly, just emptiness.
Come to think of it... I miss judo more than I enjoy aikido... :confused:
I should do both.


Now why do YOU do aikido Jim?

[Jim23]

The girls.

Just kidding!!

I actually stumbled onto it and liked what I saw. I really like the mechanics of aikido - you push, I pull, the pins, locks, etc.

Darn ... I've got to go Mark. I'll pick this up later (after class).

Gotta run ... make that walk.

Jim23

[mj]

Originally posted by Jim23

I actually stumbled onto it and liked what I saw. I really like the mechanics of aikido - you push, I pull, the pins, locks, etc.


Jim23

That's judo Jim... (Hope you enjoyed the class, I'll be in bed when you read this.)

[guest1234]

Do you guys really not feel when you have someone's balance in Aikido, get that feeling that 'resistence is futile'? I must admit I am not all that good (as in, terrible) but I would think with all your experience you would get that feeling. Since I am such a beginner I will not do justice to this, I know, but there are four very different feelings I get as uke from my partners: 1. they muscle me down 2. they don't get it at all, with or without muscle 3. they are definately connected to some part of me (wrist, arm, etc) and use alignment (geometry?physics?) to get me off balance and complete the technique and 4. have my center from the moment they touch me---no doubt in my military mind that I am going to fall at the end of this. I would think with 3, certainly with 4, nage can feel it working just as I can. Maybe it is just something you feel as uke, although I think that I have convinced myself on rare occasions that I feel it as nage.

[Jim23]

Originally posted by mj


That's judo Jim... (Hope you enjoyed the class, I'll be in bed when you read this.)
Mark,

I have a question for you. You've done judo for a very long time; which do you feel is more practical, aikido or judo (I don't want to start an aikido vs. judo war here, just an opinion)?

And I don't mean which you're better at.

From my limited experience, much of aikido seems impractical (yet fun training), although, I suppose, it does familiarize you with body mechanics (for when you are good enough to act instinctively).

"Aikido works, but not your aikido", if that's the case - and I'm sure it is - then there are way too many mediocre students out there.

Jim23

[mj]

Well... I appreciate the question Jim, because it allows me to try and vocalise things I never consider much.
My opinion could only be, and it is only my opinion, Judo is more practical.
It has greater health benefits, as anyone will realise after ten minutes of groundwork. It starts physically, and then advances into an unreal world of 3 dimensional movement. However, judo can be practiced at the same time as aiki, because they both use the same principles, but differently. The main difference is that in judo, people do everything they can to stop you applying a technique. So when it works, you know it works. Unfortunately there is 'weak' judo as well as 'weak' aiki, or anything else.
There is only one school of judo, also.

I suppose that's enough from me, though.
Peace

[mj]

Originally posted by Jim23
"Aikido works, but not your aikido", if that's the case - and I'm sure it is - then there are way too many mediocre students out there.

Jim23
That's life, not just MA's.

[deepsoup]

Originally posted by mj
However, aikido is harder to learn, because you never get to DO IT against someone who has no intentions of letting you, as in judo. In Judo you always know if it really worked.

Well speak for yourself Mark, we shodokan folks get to "DO IT" pretty often! :D

Shodokan includes a style of one-on-one randori not unlike judo, practiced at various different degrees of 'uncooperativeness' on your partner's part. It ranges from a partner who provides the attack and doesn't subsequently resist your technique at all, to a partner who has no intention of letting you get your technique, and every intention of applying a counter-technique if at all possible.

The upside is, like judo, you know if it really worked. The downside is, like judo, you know how often it didn't. :rolleyes:

Sean

[mj]

Valid points Soup (can I call you Soup?)
I've practiced Shiodokan, and the randori involved.
However, in judo, 'randori' translates as...
seeking the way in chaos, they will do anything to stop you, including NOT attacking. The Shiodokan randori is fun, though. And it is hard to do aiki techniques in that randori. Did a nice Sumi-toshi once...
Peace

[George S. Ledyard]

Originally posted by Jim23

No problem you old fart (you're younger than I am, by the way) ;)


mj,

Take a look at what George Ledyard has to say about this guy (hope you don't mind George).

By the way, I like how you say crrrrrraaaapppp!!!! :):)

If you want a real humbling but educational experience take a look at Mr. Vasiliev up in Toronto, Canada ( http://www.russianmartialart.com ) . I would dearly love to get to train with this man, he is clearly a master of unique skill. He is a former instructor of what the Russians refer to as the “Systema”. It was only taught to the Russian Special Ops folks like Stalin’s body guards and the Spetsnaz commandos. Before you prejudge this stuff you should take a look. It was totally different from what I had expected when I ordered some of his tapes (every one is worth twice what they ask). The Systema is aikido without any of the form. Every thing is done with no set postures, even designed to be done from positions of great disadvantage. Their training has no set form either. It is basically a form of jyu waza and randori which gets faster as you progress. I have been working off some of Mr. Vasiliev’s tapes and they can help you immensely with your Aikido I believe. The level of his relaxation is an inspiration yet he is quite effective. This stuff is very compatible with Aikido. And Mr. Vasiliev is a real gentleman. I had occasion to correspond with him and he was extremely gracious. The only problem here is that there are virtually no qualified instructors around who teach this. There is an American teacher on the East coast who teaches some of the same stuff but is with a different organization (ROSS Russian Martial Arts) but I have only seen his website ( http://www.amerross.com/main.html )

__________________
George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA

I recently came across a very interesting style referred to as the "Systema" which is a Russian martial art. Mr. Vasiliyev is located in Canada and is a master of this art which I would describe as Aikido but with no set form at all. One of the films that he offers for sale on his website (all are worth having) is on multiple attackers. If you want to open up your concept of randori, get that film! He at one point does an entire randori from his back on the ground against three attackers! Anyway, their method is to be completely freestyle, the attacks can be anything. But they run the randori slower for the purpose of saftey. As there is nothing formailzed about the techniques the falls can be quite dangerous, escpecially for the knees. Also, the strikes are done in a way that everybody knwos there was a hit but they are pulled to prevent abuse of the partner. So we (as Aikidoka) can do full speed, full power randori. They are completely formless but need to tone down the application a bit for safety. (With his most advanced students the amount of toning down Mr. Vasiliyev does seems to be fairly slight) Check out http://www.russianmartialart.com for this wonderful teacher.

__________________
George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA


Jim23

Talk about ones words coming back to haunt one. It's weird to think that not only are there folks out there who read this stuff we write but that somebody may actually be saving it! Finding yourself quoted is a very odd feeling. At least it's stuff that I'm not embarrssed about.

[andrew]

Originally posted by Jim23

I have a question for you. You've done judo for a very long time; which do you feel is more practical, aikido or judo (I don't want to start an aikido vs. judo war here, just an opinion)?


If you go to http://www.aikido-jaffraji.com/ and then learn to speak french (or tranlate crudely with the babel fish on altavista) you'll find a brief explanation of some of the technical differences.
I believe it says something like " In Judo, when you're pulled you push and when you're pushed you pull. In aikido when you're pulled you enter and when you're pushed you tenkan." And there's more....


andrew

[ian]

I think this is one of the more subtle differences between aikido and 'sports'. Yes, in judo you can tell if it is good because they can resist, but if I punched somebody hard in a vital point during judo I think they would be very shocked, but in aikido we have to assume this may happen.

For this reason we cannot 'hang-around' in aikido, struggling etc; it defeats the object of the defence. We have to assume that every potential strike can kill/debilitate us and so we do techniques where people do not get that oportunity to strike. This necessarily takes away from realism in the dojo, but if we are aware (both as uke and nage) of what they could have done, and the potential weaknesses we can change this next time. If we are just struggling and trying to throw each other we don't have time to re-run this problem with our technique, and we don't learn how to improve (in the same way).

from my experience, in real life people who attack you do not assume you have a good knowledge of martial arts and tend to be quite suprised when you do an aikido technique - even poor ones (which they tend to be!). I have never had a situation where someone has tried to do a counter technique or even given a reasonable level of resistence - mostly they haven't a clue what is going on.

Therefore practising counter techniques and being 'awkward' is mostly unrealistic (though possible useful at a higher level). Most people who have taken a swing at me hoped to knock me across the room (possibly because I'm quite small!).

Ian

[ian]

P.S. this is not a cricisim of martial arts as sports - I think it is easier to develop effectiveness early on in martial arts sports whereas it takes constant awareness (and minfulness) as uke and nage to get effectiveness in non-sport martial arts.

Ian

[mj]

Ian, I know no criticism was intended...:D


Originally posted by andrew

I believe it says something like " In Judo, when you're pulled you push and when you're pushed you pull.


andrew

This is an interesting one... I've read it many times, :rolleyes:
It would be truer to say...when pushed you give way (Ju) by exactly the amount you were pushed, when pulled you enter the same way.
Pushing, pulling, grappling etc in judo is done (strongly) but without committing the bodies balance. Sometimes we call it 'physical chess'. (We call Aikido physical Zen.)

And yes there are opportunities for opponents (we call them players) to strike you, and more often than not, they do.:o
But it is highly enjoyable, as is aikido.
Believe it or not, my own personal view of the differences between aikido and judo are mainly concerned with ukemi....

[Jim23]

Originally posted by George S. Ledyard


Talk about ones words coming back to haunt one. It's weird to think that not only are there folks out there who read this stuff we write but that somebody may actually be saving it! Finding yourself quoted is a very odd feeling. At least it's stuff that I'm not embarrssed about.

Ha Ha Ha!

The pen is indeed mightier than the _*cough*_sword!

I remembered reading about it (Russian martial arts) here on Aikiweb and did a search to find it.

Anyway ... George, your posts are always appreciated.

Jim23

[andrew]

Originally posted by mj
This is an interesting one... I've read it many times, :rolleyes:
It would be truer to say...when pushed you give way (Ju) by exactly the amount you were pushed, when pulled you enter the same way.
Pushing, pulling, grappling etc in judo is done (strongly) but without committing the bodies balance. Sometimes we call it 'physical chess'. (We call Aikido physical Zen.)

]
Oh. Ok. Still, it's easy to remember. Ahem.


Believe it or not, my own personal view of the differences between aikido and judo are mainly concerned with ukemi....

Believe it or not, that sounds quite simular to something I read from Kissomharu. Or at least, I recall him saying something about the differences in Ukemi.