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Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-15-2006, 09:29 PM
Hi Everyone,

I have already posted this material on the "Aikido does not work at all in a fight" thread. But seeing as I believe that Aikido is an effective martial art and would work in a fight, I thought I would re-post it here so as to start a new discussion.

Here goes!

I had an interesting encounter recently, which has changed my Aikido practice forever. I have, for years now, been looking for insights and differing points of view on various aspects of Aikido. I have, as is the case here, often looked outside the Aikido community for answers.

For a long while now the “Is my Aikido effective?” question has been raging in my mind. I was throwing back and forth the value of atemi in Aikido and, after reading a quote from osensei (which I remember reading in ‘Budo’ by Stevens):

“The purpose of Aikido is to kill your opponent with a single Blow.”

I knew I had to get an answer. I began to feel that I had to know how to seriously injure/kill someone so as to know how not to, so that I would have a choice in a life and death situation. I could not find a sensei anywhere with the ability to adequately explain this quote from osensei to me, or show that he/she even knew how. I believe that it is better to know how to kill someone and never have to do so than to need to be able to and not know how. Aikido in this day and age, in my humble opinion, does not seem to address this quote from osensei.

The answer I found to my question came in the form of a seminar, which an old training friend from my Aikido dojo encouraged me to take part in. It was a seminar on TFT or ‘Target Focus Training’. I’m not trying to promote this training, or sell it to anyone here. I just found it very interesting. I say so because it seemed to answer many of my queries.

Let me try and explain TFT. Put simply it is a method of selecting specific targets on the human body, and by striking them in specific ways, elicit a specific trauma/ spinal reflex in response. Essentially this means that you can hit a target and get a base minimum response/spinal reflex from the person you hit 100% of the time. This is trained in a similar way to which we train Aikido (uke-nage relationship) with each person practicing hitting the other at very slow speeds (so as not to hurt their training partner) while the person being hit practices giving the correct spinal reflex.

I found that this notion of striking/ getting a response fits with Aikido because, once you have struck your attacker and created a spinal reflex, you have then created a window through which you can apply any number of Aikido techniques. This to me is the meaning of atemi.

Has anyone else out there in the Aikido community attended a TFT seminar or something similar?

I hope this post/question makes sense. I humbly look forward to any and all responses from you, my peers.

Regards

Kristian

Edwin Neal
01-15-2006, 10:30 PM
osensei's quote is to be taken literally and figuratively... aikido is 99% atemi... so i guess you hit them hard alot and apply technique... perhaps he meant Kill their desire to continue fighting...
i have used my aikido and have faith in its "street" effectiveness... it is less effective in say a combat atheletics situation where there are rules and constraints on atemi, and you don't really want to crank a wristlock on hard and fast after kicking them in the nads... practicing good strong atemi (strikes and kicks) is essential. Unfortunately it is one of the less practiced parts of aikido...
thats my two cents...

Jorx
01-16-2006, 02:30 AM
There are only 2 physiologically "most effective" ways to surely end a fight. A choke and major head trauma.

Jorx
01-16-2006, 02:35 AM
copypaste from TFT site:

Target-Focus™ Training:

An Amazing New Self-Protection System
You Learn In Less Than 24 Hours
That Makes Even The Most
Vicious Criminals Putty In Your Hands

People! There is HUNDREDS of these kinds of programs in net! Where is your common sense and healthy critisicm? Ever seen Napoelon Dynamite? Rex-Kwon-Do ring a bell?

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-16-2006, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the response Jorgen,

Part of my question was to find out if anyone, other than myself, in the Aikido community had done anything like TFT. Have you Jorgen?

It's funny that you mention the TFT website Jorgen. I agree with you. It's totally angled toward selling TFT to a mass market. Be that as it may, I had the benefit of doing the TFT seminar prior to ever having seen the website so my judgement of it's true value was based on first hand experience and not what you or I would read on the website.

Thanks again Jorgen for your common sense and healthy criticism. No offense to you but is there anyone else out there with a serious response to my honest question?

Regards

Kristian.

Jorx
01-16-2006, 05:09 PM
Let's keep our discussion about TFT here... The other thread is way off... everything:)

Anyway. No I have not practiced TFT.

I'm not only talking about attitude on the website. As you described it and as the website described it - (Let me try and explain TFT. Put simply it is a method of selecting specific targets on the human body, and by striking them in specific ways, elicit a specific trauma/ spinal reflex in response. Essentially this means that you can hit a target and get a base minimum response/spinal reflex from the person you hit 100% of the time. This is trained in a similar way to which we train Aikido (uke-nage relationship) with each person practicing hitting the other at very slow speeds (so as not to hurt their training partner) while the person being hit practices giving the correct spinal reflex.)

This YELLS "fake" to me. We have totally cooperative practice. Which is proved to be non-efficent and with poor convertability to uncooperative situation (a fight). We have some mambo-jambo about spinal reflexes - never seen a pressure point guy pull something on someone who is NOT their student. Also "special spinal reflex" is something that sounds very weird - I'm not a doctor but I've taken some physiology/anatomy courses in uni (studying psychology). THEN we have the 100% killing. This is a world of probability we live in. Any martial artist putting up something like that is a scam.

I feel a little sorry that I'm too tired to be more argumented or polite. But my advice:

Take some lessons in a much despised "sport" art. Wrestling, boxing, muay thai or "the gayest sport there is - BJJ"

Ketsan
01-16-2006, 05:53 PM
Ju-jitsu teaches how and where to strike.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-16-2006, 07:05 PM
Jorgen,

Just so you know. A 'spinal reflex' is the bodies response to trauma/injury which is not governed by the conscious mind. eg. when you touch something really hot with your hand without knowing and your hand jerks away automatically. Make sense to you?

TFT principles, despite being trained in a co-operative fashion (just like many Aikido dojos practice) are sound and I believe them to be effective.

An experiment you could try is this Jorgen: Ask a friend to kick you in the testicles as hard as they can and get them to document the spinal reflex which occurs. Then, after you have recovered(which might be a few days), get them to do it again and compare the result...... I'm just messing with you. I know you are tired but just humor me!

The issue is not about if TFT principles work (because I know they do). The issue is: Has anyone in the Aikido community got any practical experience in TFT (or something similar) and feel it can be applied to Aikido practice? If there is can they share it here on this forum. *please read my initial post. Is there anyone here with an informed opinion on my original questions.

I'm looking for an honest informed answer to my honest questions.

Regards

Kristian

Edwin Neal
01-16-2006, 07:18 PM
i too think this TFT is just more commercialism... in the style of Dillman pressure point stuff... yeah if you hit someone hard in the right spot you will get a physiological response, but that response may not be the same for all people... but "death touches" and such are a little far fetched... my advice learn how to strike from a striker ie boxer or karateka... practice so you have good hard striking skills and hit your opponents hard and often while applying techniques...

mathewjgano
01-16-2006, 09:03 PM
I've never trained in that specific program, but from what I've read (I know experiencing things first-hand is always preferable) it seems the system you're describing is essentially already a part of "good" Aikido. That's a rather simplistic way for me to put it perhaps, but from my own perspective that seems correct. I'd say it's probably quite healthy to cross-reference whatever you're learning with other paradigms of training though.
It sounds like an issue being brought up in this thread is what kinds of responses are reasonable to expect. Pressure points, for example are a measurable phenominon, but different people respond differently to pain. Some people feel the pain but retain a considerable amount of self-control in how they react to it. The groin kick will make one man collapse and amp another one up. Similarly, with the idea of making your opponant angry so he becomes less focused: in the past, making me angry has only served to sharpen my focus. Perhaps these ideas don't really address your post, and if that's the case I appologize, but either way I'm curious about your thoughts regarding what I've just written.
Take care,
Matt

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-16-2006, 10:25 PM
Hello Matt,

Thanks for your response. You train with Barrish sensei? He is a friend of my old Aikido teacher Mclean sensei. Small world (made smaller by the internet)!

As far as someone getting amped up by a kick to the groin....... hmmmm.... He must have nuts of steel!

The notion of a spinal reflex, and the way it is taught in TFT, is that there is a 'base minimum' response. True, some people do have a higher pain threshold than others. All that means is, after the injury has happen and the spinal reflex is over, they are able to cope with the residual pain left behind after the fact better than someone with a low pain threshold. They are still injured. This is moot however because once you get a spinal reflex you don't stop. You keep going on, hitting more targets or doing a technique until the attacker is left non-functional. Esentially the spinal reflex 'takes their centre'.

Edwin. Thanks for your post too. I have already had plenty of training from 'big hitters'. I can throw a punch pretty well. It's more about the targeting. Some people say: "If you hit anything hard enough it dies!" True, but for me thats not really the point.

Thanks guys. Keep it coming.

Regards

Kristian.

mike valentine
01-17-2006, 12:18 AM
Jorgen,Jorgen,Jorgen.

I'm still trying to workout if you're stupid,young and naive or just trying to start an argument.I'm hoping it's your age and naivety but have a feeling that you are not real bright.You state:"there are only two physiologically most effective ways to surely end a fight.A choke and a major head trauma.Let's see if i ruptured your testicles then broke your ankle i'm pretty sure the fight would be over.If i struck you with full force to the lateral side of neck(containing the carotid artery,Jugular vein and both the Vagus and Phrenic nerves)and whilst you were lying unconscious smashed your pelvis dislocating both hips,i'm sure the fight would be over.The list is never ending and is only limited by your education of how the body works.

Let's see,next you suggest that there is no merit in wrestling,boxing,muay thai and bjj.Just wondering if you've ever been involved in any of these disciplines or is Aikido the be all and end all in your one dimensional world.Bjj is"the gayest of all",really i'm from a boxing background(one in which you wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to enter) and haven't studied bjj so won't pass judgement,but please tell, were you seduced in a bjj dojo hence labeling it gay?You know,many people think the same about are beloved Aiki.

I have done TFT and know its effectiveness.There is no "death touch" or secret pressure points,it's simply about learning where effective targets to strike are and destroying them.Aikido techniques work hand in hand with this stuff,It's not about how you get the injury,so long as you do get it.To practice this stuff you have to have cooperative training partners or people get hurt.Is it commercial,yes it is but i personally don't have a problem with people earning money,Jorgen obviously you do.

In closing i would suggest that you spend some time thinking outside the square,sample different styles take what works and disregard the rest this will only help your Aikido practice


Regards
Mike V
Oz

Edwin Neal
01-17-2006, 12:36 AM
true mike and kristian, but my advice is save the money you spend on TFT and get a bag and a copy of Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do( if you don't got it already!) practice being able to hit with accuracy as that is more important than power... if you can't hit 'em you can't knock 'em out, no matter how hard you can hit... most of these new and improved fighting systems that offer 100% effectiveness in a ridiculously short amounts of time are spurious... practice practice practice... But remember practice make permanent... perfect practice make perfect...

mike valentine
01-17-2006, 03:46 AM
Edwin

I totally agree,tft is all about accuracy hence the name "Target=place to hit Focus=make sure you actually hit the precise point Training=practice,practice,practice".I'm a firm believer in practice does not make perfect rather perfect practice makes perfect.The thing is that no matter how fast you hit unless you cause an injury you may as well be sparring,someone only wins a fight after a injury has been inflicted.Knowing where to strike is more important than doing it quickly.If you saw Bernard Hopkins defeat Oscar Dela Hoya with a single liver shot you will understand what i'm saying,nothing really happened untill the "injury" occurred,then the fight was over.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Regards

Mike V
Oz

P.s i've been hitting a bag and focus mitts since i was 10,have trained with and sparred 2 world champion boxers (Jeff Fenech and Kostya Tsyzu)when it comes to hitting a target i'm more than capable,tft just gave me some new tools to use the same as the 6 years of Aikido has.

ian
01-17-2006, 04:29 AM
I'm not sure I'd interpret the saying in exactly the same way. With its roots in swordwork I consider this to relate to the attitude of Nage. The technique is decisive and one single motion. Now, this could just as easily be a strike - and if it is, it is not a combination of strikes but a single, perfectly coordinated and perfectly timed, strike. As in sword work, blows are not 'exchanged'; there is only one chance. Also, it infers this positivity and this desire to enter and dominate - however it is done through a path of least resistance.

I believe this saying also relates to other saying of his e.g. 'the victor is decided from the moment of contact' and 'as soon as the enemy thinks of attacking he is defeated'. It is this immediacy and complete reading of the situation such that, at the point of engagement and simultaneous movement, you attack from the correct location and with perfect timing. I have found practically that the first and most important part of aikido for me is the unbalancing (physically or psychologically) at the first instant of attack - everything else is just there to continue that inital motion and prevent re-establishment of uke.

Unlike the movies, a top martial artist would never be hit because they would realise that one strike could kill.

P.S. no I have not done TFT, but I agree with the principles and think it is very important to understand these to appreciate aikido.

Jorx
01-17-2006, 04:40 AM
Let's see a "spinal reflex" I meant does not sound okay to me in this context. However we might agree it's a word game.

Mike - why do you take me as a troll:) I've been around these forums for years and it has witnessed my development as a martial artist.

I said MOST effective to END a fight. I did not say there ARE no OTHER ways to also PROBABLY make most people quit fighting. Broken ankle and ripped off testicles (lol... how many naked men are you planning to fight? maybe if you made some bad choices before that?) might be one of them. Just I think there can be made hierarchy about the effectiveness and how easy something is pulled off. E.g. a broken wrist is superior to a broken finger. A dislocated shoulder is superior to both. A dislocated knee is superior of dislocated shoulder but a leglock might be too risky in SD situation. A knockout result is about the same as RNC but harder to achieve one-on-one. However would I want to go for a RNC in a certain situation? Etc etc...

And I'm sorry but what did you mean by that? "Let's see,next you suggest that there is no merit in wrestling,boxing,muay thai and bjj.Just wondering if you've ever been involved in any of these disciplines or is Aikido the be all and end all in your one dimensional world."

Like WHAT? I practice all of those arts - quit Aikido after 6 years for them. My ADVICE for Kristian was to TRY these and then rethink about TFT. The "despised" was added before "sport" because of the many people's attitudes in this forum and ALSO in the TFT webpage.

I do not have a problem with people earning money, I have a problem with people earning money while lying too much and building false confidence in other people. ("too much" is my personal inner criteria).

As I said I don't have the chance to try out TFT. HOWEVER I am most sure that a system practiced only in cooperative enviroment will take people from zero to nowhere. That's why "Kano's revolution" was so great and that's why Kano's judoka kicked jiu-jitsu guys arses no matter what the rules were. One must sacrifice "deadly" techniques for uncooperative practice for some extent. After one is proficient with uncooperative "sparring" it easy easy to add them again to the "delivery system" that has been built in alive enviroment.

Example (which might go for Kristian as he has practiced boxing):
One can teach a boxer to fingerjab or thumb someone in the eye in like 15 minutes. After couple of hrs practice I'm sure a boxer with 5+ years experience could probably poke my eye.
However take an "ordinary" person, teach him how to fingerjab or thumb someone in the eye, practice it for a couple of days and I am quite sure I could beat him by whatever I want without getting poked in the eye once.

Jorx
01-17-2006, 04:56 AM
For reference one police report "story" that is often brought up (no I can't refer to the original source right now) and it goes something like this:
Call on domestic disturbance or the like, cops arrive there is one guy choking another from the front. They break the guys up, the "choked" guy is brought to hospital with injuries to trachea, the other seems okay. However when questioned half an hour later he starts puking and fainting, also taken to the hospital and when examined they discover he has been kneed to the groin multiple times, one testicle smashed the other in ...abdominal loculus (sp?).

HOWEVER good one is. One still might get hit. One's techniques MIGHT not work. If you are not used to that and do not practice this way... then well... your training situation is too different from what might actually happen.

I have some friends who used to try different forms of Wing Chun on different levels. That was also quite much on relying on constantly hitting accurate targets and rendering the opponent uncapable to continue fighting. Strikes to solar plexus, groing, eyes, knees etc... All of them practice boxing, wrestling and bjj now.

Jorx
01-17-2006, 05:00 AM
Sh*t what am I doing... this conversation is too emotional already to make any sense. And I should be studying for neuropsychology exam. However if someone wants to ask something specifical or discuss anything I am most willing to. Also if someone happens to wander to Estonia (which is a great place actually) I'd be most happy to hook them up with any training they like - be it Aikido (I still have contacts with most of the clubs); MMA, BJJ or something else. Also if someone cares for a roll or sparring with me and a beer/juice/cider/vodka/milk and a live normal conversation afterwards - it's on:)

mathewjgano
01-17-2006, 07:31 AM
Hello Matt,
Thanks for your response. You train with Barrish sensei? He is a friend of my old Aikido teacher Mclean sensei. Small world (made smaller by the internet)!
Hi there! Good to meet you!
As far as someone getting amped up by a kick to the groin....... hmmmm.... He must have nuts of steel!
Heheheh...I'm just refering to a time where it seemed to only piss off the guy who was kicked, though after the fight he bent over with noticeable pain.
The notion of a spinal reflex, and the way it is taught in TFT, is that there is a 'base minimum' response...
Well it sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out some time.
Take care!
Matt

Bronson
01-17-2006, 10:02 AM
...a beer/juice/cider/vodka/milk

Dear Mother of Monkeys that sounds revolting!

Bronson ;)

Ron Tisdale
01-17-2006, 11:23 AM
As far as someone getting amped up by a kick to the groin....... hmmmm.... He must have nuts of steel!

No, just good focus. Others have already related stories of serious damage done, but no visible stoppage of the violence occurred.

One of my previous instructors spent some time in jail (wrongly, in my opinion). He met guys there who LIKE for you to hurt them. They simply shut down once that happens, they stop feeling pain, and go ballistic. Once that is triggered, you must PHYSICALLY DISABLE them to get them to stop fighting (knockout/choke to unconsciousness/break limbs, neck/kill). They will not quit otherwise. It is a truely frightening level of violence.

Stuff happens in fights. Very few (if any) people can actually target specific points in specific places in specifiic orders to achieve a specific goal while someone is trying to take their head. Arts like aikido and Daito ryu do make use of kyusho, but it's kind of built into the system in multiple levels of defense. Evade, block, strike, grapple (and if possible, grab or cut where kyusho are LIKELY to be). But the kyusho are simply an additional factor that MAY prove usefull. You don't rely on them to win the day.

I have a great deal of trouble with systems that RELY on kyusho to save the day. Just look at skilled boxers...even in the fight mentioned above, how many shots did it take to get the opponant in a weak enough state for the liver shot to work? I'm betting it wasn't a first round knockout. Probably more like fifth round, after a significant amount of body shots.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
01-17-2006, 11:32 AM
Actually, it took eight rounds, and Delahoya looked like he was winning for a time. I remember this fight...

Oscar De La Hoya surprised many fans Saturday night at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. Bernard "The Executioner" Hopkins was on the menu and Oscar almost made Hopkins look old while winning three of the first four rounds on my card. But by the fifth round, Hopkins got comfortable and used his advantages in height and power to take over the momentum of the fight. In the eighth round, Hopkins landed a left hook to the liver that put Oscar down. He was out for the count. It was the first time Oscar was knocked out.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=1811&more=1
Best,
Ron

jonreading
01-17-2006, 12:00 PM
I break this thread into 2 topics:
1. Is precision striking effective in fights?
2. Does anyone have feedback on precision striking systems, such as TFT?

I believe precision striking is effective in fighting. I believe that precision striking is similar in concept to the practice of sword cutting. The human body has strengths and weaknesses and to learn to exploit weakness is effective training. Precision striking exists in most martial arts in some fashion, and should also exist in Aikido.

I do not train in a specific striking art. Like previous posts, I think there are many systems that are not legitimate and may cause more harm than good. I think a good boxing school or karate instructor would be more than competent to instruct on the basics of good striking. Don't look for exotic methods or Internet gurus, stick with the basics...

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-17-2006, 03:21 PM
Ahh! At last! I was fishing for a while. I had a few nibbles, but now I've finally got something. Thanks for your post Jon. That was the kind of response I've been looking for. Much appreciated.

In fact, thanks for all the posts. This thread has given me a lot to think about and even more to train with. I'm sure there is still a lot more info out there. Please, keep it coming.

Regards

Kristian.

Jorx
01-17-2006, 04:48 PM
To the sword a whole human body is a weak point. To the fist however it is not so.

L. Camejo
01-17-2006, 07:43 PM
Nice quote.

Can I borrow that Jorgen?

LC:ai::ki:

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-17-2006, 07:52 PM
Jorgen,

The empty hand or fist can injure such a large number of anatomical areas that your point is somewhat moot. The things that a sword can do, that the fist can not do is:

1. Cut and stab(penetrate)

2. Accelerate trauma/injury.

A sword is only a tool, just like a hammer or a screw driver. For that matter a screw driver will also make a weak point of the entire human body, just a sword does.

The only real weapon that needs to be disabled/ taken away from any attacker/asocial threat is the brain. Once you destroy or interrupt the normal functioning of the central nervous system and have made the individual non-functional, then and only then, is the threat removed.

Regards

Kristian.

mike valentine
01-17-2006, 08:22 PM
Ron,
The accumulation of other shots to nonspecific targets had no bearing on Delahoya being dropped.The shot that stopped him wouldv'e done so in round one or round twelve,it just took eight rounds for Hopkins to land a strike which caused a real trauma,Delahoya wanted to get up but his body wouldn't let him.

Jorgen,
I do believe i stated ruptured testicle not ripped off,you don't have to be naked to have your testicles ruptured.What i was trying to get across was that there is no best target or way of ending a fight,you have to use what is available at the time.Glad to see that you are training in other forms,as i stated before i've been boxing since i was 10(some 23 years) and have trained with and alongside some of the worlds best,i know what it's like to be in a hostile enviroment so maybe that's why i can see the true merit in tft.Never have i said that tft is the greatest thing invented,only that i know it works.It sure is different to anything else i've encountered(and i've been involved in alot of different arts),it's not about beating your opponent or getting him to tap out it's about ending him.I see Jorgen that i've been training for as long as you have been alive(born 1983)so i think i may know the difference between hype and bullshit.If ever i'm in Estonia i'll be sure to look you up for that beer and vodka,you can keep the cider,juice and milk.

Regards
Mike.V
Oz

L. Camejo
01-17-2006, 08:52 PM
Now that I've actually read the thread, imo if one is striking and not targetting then one is flailing out in false hope. Reminds me of something Musashi wrote about "striking" and "hitting" - one is deliberate and calculated, the other is luck.

Imo the placement of one's atemi in Aikido should ALWAYS be deliberate and precise, nothing less is required imo. And from an Aikido p.o.v. this is not about trading blows either, but selecting the one that maximizes effect based on the movements of those involved and the closing of distance.

In every effective striking method I've experienced, including Aikido atemi, one selects the target for maximum effect based on movement, openings and opportunity.

What I like about TFT (from what I've read) is that it attempts to always select a critical target on which to land each successive strike, but to me this should be obvious to any thinking striker. From what I've read on TFT from their mailing list over the past 2 years a lot of people appear pleasantly surprised by the simple efficacy of the method, which is great. But imo it is just that - simple - if you approach conflict from the right angle.

What it sounds like to me is that a lot of these folks may have known how to hit, but not how to strike, going back to the Musashi note above.

Just my 2 cents. If it works for you, then use it.

Tran hard, train smart.
LC:ai::ki:

xuzen
01-17-2006, 10:35 PM
Imo the placement of one's atemi in Aikido should ALWAYS be deliberate and precise, nothing less is required imo. And from an Aikido p.o.v. this is not about trading blows either, but selecting the one that maximizes effect based on the movements of those involved and the closing of distance.

In every effective striking method I've experienced, including Aikido atemi, one selects the target for maximum effect based on movement, openings and opportunity.

Tran hard, train smart.
LC:ai::ki:

If you look at the atemi-waza of Aikido syllabus, you can see pretty TFT'esque striking. For example:
1) Shomen-ate is a strike to the chin or throat.
2) Aigamae-ate is a possible strike to the temple or jaw
3) Gyakugamaeate-ate is a strike to the jaw or chin
4) Ushiro-ate is a strike to the neck, e.g., transition to hadaka-jime (if used with jujutsu method)
5) Gedan-ate is a strike to the knees, ankles or pelvic bone.

I totally support Larry's notion that aikido is not about trading blow for blow. Each technique is a potential fight-ending technique. Aikido atemi-waza syllabus always teaches us the proper placement of our hands, proper alignment of our body structure to deliver optimum power, foot placement for maximum stability, etc. These are all required ingredient for a proper strike.

Boon.

mike valentine
01-18-2006, 01:12 AM
Finally some of you guys are getting it.I'm sure Musashi did.

Mike.v
Oz

Jorx
01-18-2006, 05:08 AM
Larry: sure.

However even if you are most confident that TFT works, you both (Mike, Kristian) have extensive backgrounds in arts which extensively involve fighting against non-cooperative opponents.

If a person with zero training sees this TFT website, takes some seminars/videos/trains for couple of months and this builds up confidence. That confidence could vey well get HIM killed. And to me that's not "making money". That's a crime. And that's lying to people.

You see one HAS to find methods to evaluate the system... e.g. Paul Vunak has come to this that they train very nasty thing as biting against a live resisting opponent who has a STEAK tied to the neck. I mean to me that's yucky and I wouldn't want to bite anyone in the world of today nor I would not want to practice it but they have their thing down!

I do not question the possibility of getting certain "pain reflexes" of hits to throat, liver, carotid sinus, solar plexus, groin etc. But I very much doubt the possibility of actually pulling these shots off against a resisting opponent when practice is cooperative.

And when a technique is SO deadly that this method of evaluation can not be created... then I think it should be excluded or left for the latter (5+) years.

mike valentine
01-18-2006, 11:37 PM
Jorgen

There have been many documented rapist/murderers convicted on the strengh of DNA evidence,some of this DNA of the perpitrator has been taken from under the fingernails of there victoms.Funny thing is that when the assailant has been arrested the police have found him to have deep scratches on the face above and around the eyes.This would suggest that while fighting for her life the victom,rather than just poking and scratching indiscriminately could have focused on putting her fingers into the rapists eyes.Obviously this cannot always be carried out but if you are leaving marks on your attackers eyebrows you are only one inch from taking out his eyeball,then hopefully giving you a chance to get away.Most of us in our civilised world wouldn't think to do this but as barbaric as it sounds and is,if this knowledge saves my wife or loved ones tft is cheap at half the price.
I personally have shown my wife and some female friends(none of which have had any training in martial arts)some tft stuff which i hope they never have to use but i'm happier they have the knowledge than not.Do i think you can train a person to be a killing machine in a weekend with a few DVD's to watch,of course not, but you can give that person a real chance of surviving a ASOCIAL threat i.e:one in which your attacker ignores all social concepts,he is there to seriously hurt you if not kill you.In my experiece learning this stuff has pushed more people away from getting into fights over trivial matters,a spilt beer,a girl,a traffic dispute etc.they are social altercations which you can easily walk away from but which form most of the violence on our streets however what price the knowledge of how to save your life if and when the shit truly hits the fan,i don't think you should have to devote 5+ years of your life to training in order to gain some skills which could save your life.

Let me reiterate,training in tft is not a sport,it's not about points or tapping out,it's not about looking good when delivering a strike,it's about using violence(real violence)when there is no other option.Can a novice learn enough of this stuff to save his life absolutely,the hardest thing is getting your mind around what REAL violence is and becoming comfortable with it, if that is the only thing which will save you.Hey i know this is not really in the Aiki spirit but i'm having a hiatus from Aikido at present as something was missing,i've gone back to my roots to train in stuff i know works.

Regards
Mike.V
Oz

Jorx
01-19-2006, 02:15 AM
There have been many documented rapist/murderers convicted on the strengh of DNA evidence,some of this DNA of the perpitrator has been taken from under the fingernails of there victoms.Funny thing is that when the assailant has been arrested the police have found him to have deep scratches on the face above and around the eyes.

Mike - I think the target WAS eyes... it's just the attacker can do enough to protect them (enough). Close them, wiggle, RESIST. But that's just MY first thought.

And I absolutely agree one shoudn't devote 5+ years of his life training with "unarmed SD mindset". That's why philospohical mindset (e.g. Aikido) or sport mindset (e.g. whatever combat sport) is in my opinion THE way to go as they offer benefits instead of false security and paranoia AND if you choose and train wisely you will also get the benefit of SD skills without having to constantly have the SD mindset.

I would love to spar your wife and her friends (LOL:D) with let's say... groin protection and goggles and boxing gloves. A neutral observer could count the times I get hit in those places. Just bullrush them and try to keep them on ground while simulating a little punching and choking. I'd like to see how well they do. Maybe you could get one of your friends who is unfamiliar with TFT to do it... Anyway I can not see why not implement resistance training. Especially for women.

Just using VIOLENCE against violence... to me it seems that bigger violence prevails:) That means really... a female might go berserk and start attacking all those soft spots and yes that might shy away an unconfident rapist but that's not the point is it? IMHO to be successful against a larger attacker one has to have a MUCH better delivery system (directly in correlation with resistance training mat hours) no matter are the techniques eye-pokes or armbars.

And about false confidence I did not mean getting into pointless confrontation but was something more along the lines of taking subconciously choosing a latenight walk home from bar through a dark park instead of taking the cab.

Sorry... cannot talk more have exam coming up in 2 hrs. I'm glad this discussion has turned for the good again.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-19-2006, 07:13 PM
Hi Everyone,

The topic is drifting a little. But that is OK. I knew when I posted here initially that the debate would evolve. Just check out the first post if you need to…. anyway, moving along.

Has anyone heard the quote; “You do what you train”?

Some of the many purposes of Aikido training include:
1.Spiritual development.
2.Self defence.
3.Continuing the legacy of osensei.
4.Peaceful resolution of violence.
5.Non-harm of your attacker.

The one and only purpose of Target Focus Training is to injure the human body, to use violence as a tool. By injury I mean the kind of injury that will need, without question, medical attention or a mortician.

Obviously this sits at the extreme opposite end of the scale to where Aikido (The Art of Peace) resides. This being said, there are some Aiki terms, which relate to what TFT is about. One such Aiki term is “No waiting”. The belief in TFT is that if you wait for your aggressor to attack, so as then to assess the situation and decide which technique to employ, then you have left it too late. I agree with this statement. TFT means to act first, get the injury and keep on injuring until the threat is removed.

As I’ve learned from a reliable source: Superior speed, will power and technical knowledge is all taken away by a thumb driven through the eyeball, and I mean right through to the back of the eye socket. YUK!

The purpose of my initial post, which was reiterated by Jon Reading, is to get answers to the following questions:

1. Is precision striking effective in fights?
2. Does anyone have feedback on precision striking systems, such as TFT?

Thanks again for all the great responses so far. Keep it coming.

Regards

Kristian.

Jorx
01-20-2006, 04:20 AM
Okay... in many ways this TFT seems to remind some Wng Chun schools - the concept of taking the iniciative, attacking (physically) first, injuring and continuing injuring putting the original aggressor under a pressure of continous violence until he is finished. Fast and "light" attacks to vulnerable areas such as (knee)joints; groin; solar plexus; throat; eyes etc. Elbows to the back of the head etc...

Did I mention all of those guys who did these systems (one was the head instructor for the COUNTRY!) do BJJ and boxing and wrestling now?

"As I've learned from a reliable source: Superior speed, will power and technical knowledge is all taken away by a thumb driven through the eyeball, and I mean right through to the back of the eye socket. YUK!"

How do YOU know? How do YOU know it works for YOU? Do YOU trust the source enough to make YOUR life depend on it?

I KNOW my takedowns work. I KNOW that I can knock someone down with a punch to the solar plexus because I have been doing them against different people who DID NOT want me to do those things.

In sport MMA people have got kneed in the head while shooting for a takedown, finished the takedown, started the gound and pound. Doctors examination later revealed multiple skull fractures.

Of course people have also taken accidental shots to the groin and were unable to continue the fight BUT people have also been able to continue right away (the referee was at the blind angle) recover and reverse the fight.

Remeber there was also a time in sport-mma when it wasn't a sport. It was pure Vale Tudo - anything goes.

I do not have direct training myself in precision striking systems. However I have multiple expriences in cooperative vs. non-cooperative training. Even is the non-cooperative training is AS limited as let's say pure point-karate it seems to prevail over the pure non-cooperative training no matter how deadly the techniques are.

Ron Tisdale
01-20-2006, 09:31 AM
Kristian,

You seem to keep asking the same questions until you get the answer you've already decided on. Is there a reason for this?

Best,
Ron

L. Camejo
01-20-2006, 11:03 AM
I think Jorgen has a relevant point regarding the training method over the techniques trained.

For those who have done it, does TFT include any sort of resistance-based, non-cooperative, adrenal-response type training? In all I've read about them, including their newsletter I don't see much regarding resistance-based training, but this does not mean that it does not exist.

A reason why Aikido suffers a lot of bad press in the SD arena is as a result of the absence of resistance-based training in very many schools, regardless of how "deadly" some may make the waza out to be. For those who practice using resistance and other "free-will" elements as a tool, there is a different understanding as to what really happens in interpersonal conflct, what actually works and what "seems" to work.

To be honest, if any program calls itself a "self defence" program or self defence based method and does not deal with adrenal and other psycho-chemical responses that appear often in SD situations, then these programs are lacking ina critical aspect of SD imho.

I think it was Dwight D. Eisenhower who said - "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." One does not need extreme technical skill for SD, but one does need the extreme mindset and willingness to carry through with whatever course of action is decided upon. - This is technique independent.

If TFT speaks about dealing with Asocial violence then resistance and psycho-chemical response conditioning is an absolute necessity.

Just my 2 cents.

LC:ai::ki:

jonreading
01-20-2006, 12:22 PM
Larry has brought up a great point that is relevant to discussion: There is a difference between hitting and striking. Call it what you want, but repetitive practice of an action will result in a greater likelihood to executing that action without complication. In our discussion, we are specifically speaking about striking with our appendages.

Practicing strikes will improve the possibility of successfully striking your opponent in a fight; there is no question of the validity of this statement. The next question (which has been pointed out) should be, "So what?" So now we go back to hypothetical discussion...

The question that has been (appropriately) raised is simple. For all of the practice involved, is there demonstrable proof that hypothetical strikes are effective when actually applied in a fight? Jorgen seems to rely on the "tried and true" method while we are exploring the feasibility of this question. This is a conservative viewpoint and probably a judicious one for practical purposes.

But consider this, the relate damage that can be inflicted from an accurate strike is much more efficient than an inaccurate strike. A kick to the chest is a great strike, but is it as efficient as the same energy used for a kick to the groin, or the kneecap, or the throat? I would argue no. I've been kick many times in the chest, I've only been kicked a few times in the groin; kick my chest any day, I am more capable to cope with that damage that a groin kick. Other may be different in their pain thresholds and body strengths, I realize my groin, eyes, throat, knees, etc. are vulnerable targets and I train hard to protect them.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
01-22-2006, 03:13 PM
Ron,

Thanks for the inquiry. No, I'm not after a specific, predetermined answer. Just lots of different answers to the same question. I think that out of all the really great posts we've had on this topic only a small number actually answers the question. This is why I have reiterated the question a number of times.

Regards

Kristian.

L. Camejo
01-28-2006, 08:16 PM
Just to add something to the mix I have attached a snippet of the last TFT newsletter I received which interestingly enough has a story regarding an incident of asocial violence that occurred in the UK.

Personally, these newsletters have helped me in how I think about self defence (or self protection) with my own training and teaching etc. and helped to define the boundary between social and asocial violence and how one approaches each. Many speak of self defence as a generic thing, but I've learnt that it contains many levels and areas of understanding, some of which are not dealt with in the typical dojo.

Anyway read the attached and discuss if you like.
LC:ai::ki:

Combat Training Principles -- Secrets For Staying Alive When
'Rules' Don't Apply

HE GAVE MUGGERS ALL HIS POSSESSIONS BUT THEY WANTED MORE... HIS
LIFE
*****************************************************************
When the situation is obscure, attack!
-General Heinz Guderian
*****************************************************************
One of my Expatriate UK clients forwarded this story of a murder
that recently rocked both the residents and media of London.
What made this murder so shocking?
Just this: the victim did everything you all THINK you should do
in this type of situation.
WARNING: The article below will make you very uncomfortable if
you think your social skills will get you by in an asocial
violent event.
With that caveat, please read on:

* * * * *

HE GAVE MUGGERS ALL HIS POSSESSIONS BUT THEY WANTED MORE... HIS
LIFE
By Jeff Edwards, Tom Parry And Robert Stansfield, Times-Mirror
Staff
A successful young lawyer was stabbed to death by muggers just
yards from his home despite handing over all his possessions.
Tom Rhys Pryce was heard pleading with the callous thieves, "What
more do you want from me? You've got everything of value."
Seconds later the two men knifed him in the head, body and limbs
in a frenzied, ferocious and senseless attack before they fled.
The 31-year-old, who was due to marry fiancée Adele Eastman in
September, was stabbed at least a dozen times as he put up a
fierce fight for his life with his bare hands.
Investigation chief Detective Superintendent Julian Worker said:
"This is a shocking murder. It looks like a completely gratuitous
killing.
"It is clear it was a robbery. We know that he had already handed
over everything of value that was on him. We know he was telling
them he had nothing else of value. He was pleading with them and
they just produced knives and started stabbing him.
"Tom was killed just 50 yards from his front door. Adele, 31, was
in the house waiting for him to return from a work social event.
"She went outside after hearing the commotion just before
midnight on Thursday but did not see her dying fiancé who was
lying in a pool of blood.
The family was too upset to talk last night. A neighbor said:
"Tom and Adele were the picture of happiness.
"He had his whole life ahead of him but it has been so cruelly
taken from him. Everyone's devastated."
Another, Gerry Dobson, 63, added: "It's such a bloody, crying
shame. We know from firsthand experience as parents the
dedication and support that has gone into getting that young man
where he got in his profession.

"To have some idiot take that away from you, not just you, but a
whole family, friends and community, well it's dreadful.
"He was someone who had put in all that effort when you have so
many bums who go around scratching a living and don't contribute
anything to society."
Tom was attacked as he walked to his home at Bathurst Gardens in
Willesden, North West London, from nearby Kensal Green Tube
station.
He was smartly dressed in a blue shirt and tie, a grey suit and
black business shoes.
Det Supt Worker said: "This is a quiet, up and coming area of
London, and not the type of place where we would expect a murder
like this to happen." A neighbour of the couple added: "This is a
very normal and usually quiet residential street. It's
unbelievable someone should be killed in such a horrible way so
close to his home."
Police believe the murderers may have been lying in wait near
Kensal Green station looking for a victim to rob.
* * * * *
My condolences go out to the families of this man and his fiancé.
If you've been reading my past newsletters closely you'll
recognize all the clues in this article that clearly show the
general public, our media, and even the law enforcement community
have an incredibly difficult time coping with asocial acts of
violence, much less how to survive one.
You CANNOT let yourself become just 'one of the herd,' waiting
for the next predators to arrive.
If after reading this article from the UK Mirror you still can't
see what this poor guy did wrong you are not ready for asocial
violence.
Sadly most people read this and say that the victim did everything
he could and that "he fought for his life" but the 2 guys with
the knives were just too much for him.
Yet there's a huge difference between "fighting for your life"
and "trying not to get stabbed". Make sure you know the
difference.
The time to install such information is well before you have to
face such an ordeal. If not now, then when? This isn't something
you "figure out" while staring at a knife blade or down the
barrel of a gun.
Living in his nice North London neighborhood, I'm sure the last
thing Mr. Pryce ever expected was that he'd experience asocial
violence during his walk home... and lose his life.
Until next time,

Tim Larkin
Master Close-Combat Instructor,
Creator of Target-Focus(TM) Training

david evans
02-02-2006, 06:37 AM
I guess the question remains; are you prepared to punch some one in the face till their head caves in? TFT does not promote this, but what are you willing to do?

TFT asks you to forget whatever you think about violence and be willing to apply it to a confrontational situation.

MattRice
02-02-2006, 08:27 AM
There are only 2 physiologically "most effective" ways to surely end a fight. A choke and major head trauma.

I would submit that a good kick to the knee is 'most effective'.
Hard to fight if one can't stand.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-16-2006, 03:46 PM
Matt,

It's also hard to fight with a ruptured ear drum, or broken fingers, or a book fracture of the pelvic ring, or a broken collar bone, or a crushed trachea....... you get the idea.

To say that any one target is preferential or 'most effective' over any other is only going to limit your responses in an asocial situation. All targets are equal. An injury is an injury. Once you get one on your opponent the scale tips in your favor.

Regards

Kristian
Sydney.

Michael O'Brien
02-16-2006, 04:21 PM
...
1. Is precision striking effective in fights?
2. Does anyone have feedback on precision striking systems, such as TFT? ...


To answer question 1 I would say in a generic sense of course precision striking is effective in fights. That shouldn't even be debatable. If you land land a precision strike to target "x" (throat, groin, kneecap, solar plexus) it will give you the desired result.

The correct question should be can you effectively land precision strikes in a fight? That becomes more difficult and is based largely on your training, in my opinion.

As for question 2 I don't have any feedback on a specific system. When I trained in Tae Kwon Do we did train for shots to the groin, knee, throat, solar plexus, nose, etc but it wasn't "precision striking" per say.

The one encounter I had on the street after that also ended in about 1.5 seconds and 3 blows.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-19-2006, 03:58 PM
Michael,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm pretty sure I asked the exact question that I wanted to get answers for. But now that you mention it..... Can you effectively land precision strikes in a fight?

Answer: Yes.

Regards

Kristian
Sydney.

Michael O'Brien
02-20-2006, 03:41 PM
Michael,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm pretty sure I asked the exact question that I wanted to get answers for. But now that you mention it..... Can you effectively land precision strikes in a fight?

Answer: Yes.

Regards

Kristian
Sydney.

Kristian,
That is a highly glossed over answer. Take someone who has trained for 1 month in any training style, TFT included, and put them in a fight with a highly trained fighter and I doubt they could land an effective strike period, precision or not.

Take any highly trained martial artist and put them against joe smith on the street and they can land precison strikes, period.

Take someone skilled in TFT/precision striking and pair them up against a skilled martial artist and eventually they can probably land a precision strike, but will they land every blow they throw where they want it? No way. Some will be blocked, some will be dodged, some will land close, but not exactly where they need to land.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-20-2006, 10:38 PM
Michael,

Thanks for your reply. You stated:

“Take any highly trained martial artist and put them against joe smith on the street and they can land precision strikes, period.”

Violence is about injury. Period. Joe smith can use violence just as well as any highly trained martial artist because violence does not use strength, speed etc as a means of domination. It uses destruction. When Joe smith gets an injury on our highly trained martial artist (lets call him “Barry”), then suddenly there is no more competition. Barry is now just a man with an injury. You are talking about a competition between skill in martial arts and no skill.

There are absolutely no rules in violence. Whatever can be done to get an injury is ‘allowed’. There are no moral codes to violence. No right or wrong. There is only injury. Violence is about destruction.

I remember reading a wonderful story in a book titled “Attack Proof”. The author relates an instance where a small, untrained woman easily outdid a large man who was highly trained in martial arts. The story goes something like this:

The author gives this small woman a rubber training knife. He pointed to our highly trained martial artist with extensive training in knife fighting who was standing at the other side of the room. He said to this woman words to this effect: “That man over there (the highly trained martial artist) has your children. He will kill them. He is the only thing standing between you and your children. Now do anything you need to do to save them”

The woman then, as the story goes, let out a scream and ran full pelt towards this man. Just as she came within reach she slid on her knees easily evading a blow to her head and stabbed the man repeatedly in the groin. She defeated him easily. Our highly trained martial artist was a little red faced. In ‘real life’ he would be a dead man. Period.

I have found that since undertaking my target focus training many un-needed, outdated modes of thought and action have melted away. My training has gone from being ‘Technique’ based to being ‘Target’ (injury) based. I still think Aikido is an awesome legacy art. The techniques just don’t have the same meaning anymore.


Thanks


Kristian.
Sydney.

Michael O'Brien
02-20-2006, 10:57 PM
Michael,

Thanks for your reply. You stated:

"Take any highly trained martial artist and put them against joe smith on the street and they can land precision strikes, period."

Violence is about injury. Period. Joe smith can use violence just as well as any highly trained martial artist because violence does not use strength, speed etc as a means of domination. It uses destruction. When Joe smith gets an injury on our highly trained martial artist (lets call him "Barry"), then suddenly there is no more competition. Barry is now just a man with an injury. You are talking about a competition between skill in martial arts and no skill.

There are absolutely no rules in violence. Whatever can be done to get an injury is ‘allowed'. There are no moral codes to violence. No right or wrong. There is only injury. Violence is about destruction.

I remember reading a wonderful story in a book titled "Attack Proof". The author relates an instance where a small, untrained woman easily outdid a large man who was highly trained in martial arts. The story goes something like this:

The author gives this small woman a rubber training knife. He pointed to our highly trained martial artist with extensive training in knife fighting who was standing at the other side of the room. He said to this woman words to this effect: "That man over there (the highly trained martial artist) has your children. He will kill them. He is the only thing standing between you and your children. Now do anything you need to do to save them"

The woman then, as the story goes, let out a scream and ran full pelt towards this man. Just as she came within reach she slid on her knees easily evading a blow to her head and stabbed the man repeatedly in the groin. She defeated him easily. Our highly trained martial artist was a little red faced. In ‘real life' he would be a dead man. Period.

I have found that since undertaking my target focus training many un-needed, outdated modes of thought and action have melted away. My training has gone from being ‘Technique' based to being ‘Target' (injury) based. I still think Aikido is an awesome legacy art. The techniques just don't have the same meaning anymore.


Thanks


Kristian.
Sydney.

Kristian,
I agree violence is about injury and I believe if I am attacked on the street then the goal is for me to be the one who walks away, and the only one who survives if necessary.

However, I don't see how that has any direct corelation to TFT. The story you cited is ONE amusing and interesting example of an encounter. Show me a case study where that happened 80% of the time and then I'll be interested in that data.

Also, I can cite many examples of women who were being raped, mugged, etc who gouged eyes, bit off ears, etc and survived through violence. Again, none of it has anything whatsoever to do with TFT training though?

TFT training has usefulness and effectivess I'm sure; But in my opinion it is just like everything else. It isn't perfect. My first black belt was in Tae Kwon Do. I have trained in TKD for many years, but it is a far from perfect art so I use other training to supplement my knowledge and fill in the gaps I see my training.

Given the opportunity would I spend some time training with someone skilled in TFT, sure. Would I swear it is the end all savior for survival, not on my life.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-21-2006, 01:23 AM
Michael,

The story I cited was one very amusing example. I could continue to post story after story on this site to prove my case. What would be the point? Well, it would show time and again that when people respond to asocial threats with destructive/violent action that their chance of survival goes up dramatically. Defensive wounds are generally only found on corpses. So, in effect, these many examples you can also cite of women successfully using violence to save themselves from being raped and murdered has everything to do with TFT. The use and understanding of violence is one of TFT's main goals. Violence belongs to everyone. No one is immune. The creator of the TFT system does not have the patent on violence. He can however show anyone how to use it effectively. (Testimonials on his site have him at over an 80% success rate I think. (I chuckle to myself))

I don't believe I said at anytime that TFT is the ultimate answer to asocial violence. I will say that TFT is a system that will help the average socialized human understand how to use violence as a survival tool in an asocial situation. TFT also gives the average person a long list of targets to injure and shows them how to injure those targets, very simply, should they ever need to.

In my 10 years of Aikido training I never received any instruction in how to effectively address asocial violence. TFT filled in the gaps in my Aikido training. My initial post (I hope you read it Michael) was to find out if anyone had had the same or similar experience.


Regards

Kristian.

mike valentine
02-21-2006, 02:15 AM
Hey guys,

Haven't read yet anywhere on this forum or others that suggests that TFT is the be all and end all of martial arts,however i'm sure it has been pointed out that it is effective,maybe another tool in your arsenal which could save your life.Hell i've been involved in alot more than one bad situation,some lasting less than 3 hits and 1.5secs. some much longer and drawn out,but the same reality remains,the one who causes the first real injury usually wins.


Let's get one thing straight,the majority of people who train in MA don't do so to learn about real violence,they do so for competition,spirital reasons,fitness etc.Those things mean "Jack Shit" when confronted by a asocial menace.The most successful uses of REAL violence fill our prisons.The vast majority of these people have had zero MA training.So could i train someone with no experience to defeat a blackbelt in a month,well for a competition i would hope definately not,but for the real world,where there are no rules hell yeah.Do you honestly believe our fighting elite,be it Navy SEALS,SAS,Spetznaz,DELTA Force and so on train in hand to hand combat to blackbelt level,no they learn what works,how it works and what is most useful in a very short time frame.

Mike, as for the rape/mugged victoms you illustrated i couldn't agree more that you don't need to study TFT to poke out an eye,rip off an ear etc just the same as you don't need to be proficient in boxing to throw a punch but knowing how to do it properly takes alot of guess work out of the equation.


Just to reiterate some things i've discussed in this and previous posts,competition has absolutely nothing to do with violence.Violence is about destruction,period.

Jorx,i'm sure in a competitive enviroment my beautiful wife would be no match for you but in a real life situation you should never underestimate a truelly determined foe.Hell lose the googles,gloves,groin protection etc and i'll lie on my back,let you straddle me and simulate a rape,with very little strength i'll be the one LOL,you my friend will be seeking an E.R.In real violence THERE ARE NO RULES get it.That means no tapouts,submissions or count outs,just life and death.Untill you get your head around this concept you won't fully comprehend what TFT is about,so maybe your uninformed biased opions on the subject would best be kept to yourself.I could and should go on but can't be bothered.

Does TFT work,yes,i've used it.Will it save you every time,no,a bat to the back of the head will beat any system.Will TFT add another arrow to your quiver ofcourse and in doing so could just save your life.In a REAL confrontation there are no escapes,no rules or refs.it's you against them and it will get ugly,extra knowledge may get you home alive.

Hopefully this will hep some of you guys get it,if not your loss.

Regards

Mike V
Oz
Ps there are no light strikes or death touches,just full penetration and total commitment to the job at hand

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 04:23 AM
i still am very skeptical, i won't put it in the same category as George Dillman/bullshido... i believe it is sound in some ways, but not new or revolutionary... the reason a few here seem to really 'get it' is because it is slick... it has enough 'truth' mixed in with the marketing to sell it... thus it resonates or rings true... most of the 'philosophy' is old hat for martial arts in general... see the first post the Osensei quote that started it all... then read the black belt article on the website... but more LOOK at the pictures... see the 'aikido' techniques... see how 'wrong' they are done/applied... particulary in the fourth page picture... how many distinct mistakes can you pick out of his 'ikkyo'? i was tempted to really go for it and give a very long and detailed critique of this, but i will try to restrain myself... let's be clear i believe you can learn some useful things from it in a short 'seminar', but nothing 'new'... for me certainly nothing i have not learned in my experience in martial arts and life, and better from some of my sensei's... my last point (for now) is how it lacks a coherent idea of defense... to use the sword analogy the first to cut wins... it is fine to sharpen your sword, but one must protect oneself or you will not be able to attack... the concept of blocks as a waste is flawed... every block is a strike, and every strike is a block is an old martial arts maxim... self defense is first about protecting yourself, that means not being injured... not just hoping that you can injure your attacker first and severely enough to protect yourself... you need a shield, too...

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-21-2006, 03:47 PM
Edwin,

Thanks for your post.

As we know, Aikido techniques can be practiced, refined, practiced and then refined some more. The textbook ikkyo looks awesome. It is one of my favourite techniques (after shiho nage). That being said, to take someone’s elbow past the pathological limit does not take years of practice, and it will not look the same as our beloved textbook ikkyo either. The idea of continual refinement lies in the arena of academia. It is unnecessary to perform 50,000 ikkyo to know how break an elbow. In fact it is very possible to perform 50,000 ikkyo and not know how to break an elbow at all.

Edwin, I think it would be a really valuable exercise for all of us if you were to go through that picture and point out all the technical ‘mistakes’ from an Aikido perspective. Then, I could go through that picture and point out the one defining universal thing ‘correct’ with it. This being that it will get an injury. Its not meant to look pretty, its meant to get results. Violence has nothing to do with looking good and everything to do with getting injury, in any way possible. There will be no panel of judges standing around when “IT” hits the fan to give you an appraisal of how well you did that ikkyo. No one will be there to give points for how good you looked. You, if fact any of us, will be happy just walk away alive. Most asocial monsters languishing in jail have never seen or even heard of ikkyo. Does that stop them from being effective? No. Most asocial monsters have less than 10min real time experience at killing. Does that stop them from being oh so good at it? No.

Ever hear the quote: “There is nothing new under the sun”? Violence is nothing new. The stone to the back of the head is nearly as old as the stones themselves, so to speak. Osensei does not have the patent on ikkyo. He did not invent ikkyo. Neither did the gentleman who taught him, and so on. Get my meaning?

Last point: Try and block a guy stabbing you with a shiv to the kidney. Now try and block another 60 or 70 attempts. As soon as he gets one in, he will certainly get another, then another. Someone will be lying in a pool of his own blood. I can guarantee it will be the guy who tried to block. See a target then destroy that target and then destroy another if need be. Then do any Aikido technique you want after that.

Thanks again.

Kristian.
Sydney.

Michael O'Brien
02-21-2006, 05:08 PM
Let me try and explain TFT. Put simply it is a method of selecting specific targets on the human body, and by striking them in specific ways, elicit a specific trauma/ spinal reflex in response. Essentially this means that you can hit a target and get a base minimum response/spinal reflex from the person you hit 100% of the time.

It seems to me that the supporters of TFT are drifting from their own topic as I understand it. We are talking about criminals in prisons, moms, etc now and the violence and reactions to it.

I re-quoted the ORIGINAL message for Kristen again and stand by my post several posts back in reference to your own quote of this style. We aren't talking about violence about, we are talking about PRECISION STRIKING in a combat/violent situation with at least 1 or multiple attackers out to kill you.

In that situation, in my opinion, no one is going to land EVERY strike exactly where they want it. If you are well trained in TFT then yes, you have a good chance of landing a shot to a critical zone and ending the conflict. But like everything else, don't preach that when I'm attacked it's going to be this "1 strike bad guy fall down hype" either.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-21-2006, 08:02 PM
Michael,

My name is Kristian. I spelled your name correctly. Please return the favor.

Yes, this topic has drifted hasn't it. Very good. I did try to keep it on track at first but now it seems that there is an awful lot to discuss. It would be un-natural to keep this topic railroaded. But yes, please stick to my initial post too if you wish.

I'm also glad you have the gumption to stick to your guns Michael. Good for you. I'm sure that given the opportunity to sit down face to face and have a discussion we would get on very well indeed. No preaching required.

Thanks again.

Kristian
Sydney.

Edwin Neal
02-21-2006, 08:48 PM
function thus injury as you put it comes from performing the technique correctly... don't do it correctly and no injury, add to that the possibility of the attacker countering incorrect technique with 'injury' and you see that the proper form is imperative... his ikkyo is weak look at his pinky finger... i won't keep going for that is enough for the much desired resulting 'injury' to fail to happen, it leaves plenty of room for the attacker to resist and counter/escape... and gives the attacker back the initiative... blocking a 'shiv' and disarming or breaking (injury) the arm makes perfect sense according to your arguement if injury is the goal... again EVERY BLOCK IS A STRIKE AND EVERY STRIKE IS A BLOCK... this stuff borders on bullshido/cult status... just the price and the guarantee alone indicate to me that it is simply a new marketing strategy that appeals to folks who have a dislike/doubt of traditional martial arts type training... like i said it sounds good and correct, but that is not enough... it must BE correct, and i feel that while he does have some excellent points that i completely agree with overall he simply misses alot and make too many generalizations...
could we please stop conflating the terms violence=technique... when you say violence you mean punching, kicking, breaking, throwing... these are the techniques of violence and they are indeed intended to cause injury... same as in aikido... if the other guy is technically better at 'violence' then he will win... this is why it is important that the ikkyo be done fundamentally sound... thus your technique is better and you will cause injury... i will continue to point out more fundametal flaws in his ikkyo in future posts... bottom line if you don't do it correctly the chances of it actually working on a resistant attacker become less and less...
as for the shiv argument... if you don't agree with the block/strike idea... what 'target' do you destroy to keep him from stabbing you, what if you destroy your 'target' and he still stabs you?... if you do not control the weapon in some way how do you insure that you will not be stabbed? aikido gives the answer by simultaneous, counterattack (injury), evasion, and control... you need a sword and a shield and some good armor... multiple layers of protection or redundancy as we said in the navy... if your first response fails you must have a back up... simply repeating the same failed movement again and again won't do... attack, attack, attack just doesn't keep you from getting stabbed, but if it is combined with other complementary strategies/tactics ie defense then your chances improve...

It is necessary to develop a strategy that utilizes all the physical conditions and elements that are directly at hand. The best strategy relies upon an unlimited set of responses.
Osensei

Michael O'Brien
02-21-2006, 09:09 PM
Michael,

My name is Kristian. I spelled your name correctly. Please return the favor.

Yes, this topic has drifted hasn't it. Very good. I did try to keep it on track at first but now it seems that there is an awful lot to discuss. It would be un-natural to keep this topic railroaded. But yes, please stick to my initial post too if you wish.

I'm also glad you have the gumption to stick to your guns Michael. Good for you. I'm sure that given the opportunity to sit down face to face and have a discussion we would get on very well indeed. No preaching required.

Thanks again.

Kristian
Sydney.

Kristian,
My apologies for mispelling your name; typos do happen occasionally and I assure you it wasn't on purpose.

I have no problems with the topic drifting, the discussion is definitely interesting even with the drift.

I merely steered it back in this direction because in your previous post you had made a reference back to your original post.

Should the opportunity ever present itself I think it would be great to be able to sit down and talk face to face and perhaps even get some training time in as well.

I love talking with and training with different people all the time. With new people come new ideas and new perspectives.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-23-2006, 04:11 PM
Edwin,

Let me start by saying that I agree with your first point: “Function thus injury comes from performing the technique correctly…. Don’t do it correctly and no injury.” I see now that the point we don’t agree on is simply that you don’t believe the ‘ikkyo’ shown in the picture would work because it does not accurately resemble an Aikido ikkyo, while I believe it will work because it is a base leverage 1 of the humeroulnar (elbow) joint. I believe that the movement illustrated in the picture will cause an injury and you do not. That is OK by me. We don’t need to agree on this point or any point for that matter.

You mention that an incorrect ikkyo will result in the opportunity for a counter movement. Blocking and countering is a very dangerous game to play. This kind of tit for tat fighting lies in the realm of combat sport and has no relevance in the realm of asocial violence. “It is like playing a game of chess at 90m/h”. The human brain cannot function at that speed for long. I would honestly say that to slam an elbow beyond the pathological limit, correct ikkyo technique or not, and you will get no counter attack.

“as for the shiv argument... if you don't agree with the block/strike idea... what 'target' do you destroy to keep him from stabbing you, what if you destroy your 'target' and he still stabs you?” In regards to the ‘Shive to the kidney’ example: you do not need to break the arm to make the attacker non-functional. Gouge out his eye or break his patella and he will be equally non-functional. All targets are equal in the eyes of violence. He will be too busy nursing his injury to be stabbing anyone. Also, I did not say that anyone would walk away unscathed. The reality of violence is that “yes” we may still receive a puncture wound. There are no guarantees. After all no one is immune to violence. The sooner we act the less likely we are to be injured. The longer an engagement goes on, the more times someone tries to block, getting involved in the competition, “game of chess at high speed”, the greater the risk of injury. Buy saying that you will control the stabbing tool so it will not touch you is to play this game of chess. It means that you are prepared to spend valuable time trying to tie up a hand, arm or weapon or even worse, wait for it and try and catch it in flight. The only real weapon is the central nervous system, which controls all the tools (hands, legs, shiv, club, gun etc). Effect control of this real weapon and all other tools become useless.

As your mantra states: EVERY BLOCK IS A STRIKE AND EVRY STRIKE IS A BLOCK. OK, what does that mean exactly? That to me is a response steeped in mysticism and is in itself evident to the cult status of Aikido and many eastern combative arts. Are you saying that to strike a strike is the best block? Or to block a block is the best strike? It is convoluted in its meaning. I could say that: “Every injury is a non-injury and every non-injury is and injury.” To where does this logic lead? My guess is it may lead us to our graves.

Fiddling with this
And that technique
Is of no avail.
Simply act decisively
Without reserve!

Osensei.


Thanks again.

Kristian
Sydney.

RobertBrass
02-24-2006, 05:20 PM
Earlier in the thread there were some comments about sword vs. fist and I keep laughing thinking about Monty Python and the search for the Holy Grail. "it's only a flesh wound!"
"come back here or I'll bite your kneecaps off!"

Michael Varin
02-24-2006, 11:31 PM
I saw TFT advertised in a magazine a few years ago, and checked out the website, but never looked into it further.

In Karate Kid 3 (don't laugh), Daniel's evil sensei teaches him: If a man can't see a man can't fight. If a man can't breathe a man can't fight. If a man can't stand a man can't fight. I generally believe this, but there are never any guarantees.

One must possess knowledge of the weak points and the natural weapons of the human body, as well as the ability to pick out targets and strike accurately to be effective.
None of this guarantees that you will land all or any of your blows, as was pointed out earlier a resistive and aggressive adversary does not stand still with all of his vital areas exposed. Additionally, adrenaline, rage, and commitment can allow a human to take much more punishment than would be expected to stop them (also mentioned earlier).

There are many factors that affect the outcome of self-defense situations. Many of these we cannot control. This is why I put much value in the development of a calm, aware mind. Composure will allow one to do what is necessary. The Navy SEALs creed is speed, surprise, and violence of action. Using deception, creating the element of surprise, when all of the odds are against you these can be big allies. One thing I know is that the punch you don't see coming is the punch that KOs you.

The story posted by Larry Camejo in post #46 really illustrates the importance of taking the responsibility to protect yourself. The police could not have helped had they been called, and doing what the law enforcement establishment recommends, not resisting and giving the criminals what they want clearly failed. Self-defense is everyone's right and responsibility. Why modern society no longer feels this way baffles me.

I recommend that those who want an advantage over their assailant strongly consider carrying a weapon. OC pepper spray is very effective and causes no permanent damage, even if you have to continue fighting the attacker is now impaired. A handgun and tactical folding knife are also good companions. Of course, proper training is a must. I know many countries or states do not allow these weapons. What a shame.

Also, I don't think ikkyo is meant to injure the elbow, but rather to turn the attacker slightly and expose vital organs to knife or sword cuts.

Michael

Edwin Neal
02-25-2006, 12:28 PM
I believe the "ikkyo" pictured could 'possibly' work and do the 'injury' that seems to be your mantra, but it is less likely to work than a functionally formed ikkyo... however injury does not in my mind mean the attackers stops... this is a possibility, but not a certainty...
"Blocking and countering is a very dangerous game to play. This kind of tit for tat fighting lies in the realm of combat sport and has no relevance in the realm of asocial violence."
this is exactly my point... a fight, whether in a ring or in a sd situation IS a dynamic situation that does involve alot of actions and reactions on both sides... even IF you break his arm, it is still possible that the attacker can continue to fight... this terminology that is being invoked 'asocial violence' just means fight... you and TFT are muddying the waters with these turns of phrase... it is no 'different' kind of encounter... it is a fight plain and simple... if you don't finish it then the other guy will... to finish it you must 'completely' control the situation and the attacker... you must completely defend yourself, and completely control your attacker... TFT reminds me of a young friend of mine who boldly stated at our first meeting "no martail art can stop me... i can knock anyone out"... he has had a change of heart since he has never 'knocked me out' and i have frequently choked or tapped him out... he like TFT makes one critical ommision...PROTECT YOUSELF AT ALL TIMES... if you don't then you could be taken out of the fight by 'injury'

"I would honestly say that to slam an elbow beyond the pathological limit, correct ikkyo technique or not, and you will get no counter attack."
"He will be too busy nursing his injury to be stabbing anyone. "

these are HUGE assumptions!!! anecdotal evidence shows us many situations where injury, even fatal injury, have not caused someone to stop and nurse their wounds... infact they often continued to act in spite of severe injury... thus as this is a fundamental tenet of TFT, and i believe a faulty assumption... TFT's strategy seems to be on shaky ground...

EVERY BLOCK IS A STRIKE AND EVRY STRIKE IS A BLOCK. OK, what does that mean exactly? That to me is a response steeped in mysticism...

sorry, not in my study of mysticism... i fail to see any mystic ideas in this statement... any strike/block has as it's intent BOTH causing injury to the attacker, and preventing injury to the defender... nothing mystical in that... your statement, "Every injury is a non-injury and every non-injury is and injury." is logically unsound...

you must be getting quite a bit of the money that this slick marketing scheme is generating... I invite those following this topic to note the exorbitant fee's that are charged for seminars... to so empassionately espouse it... my opinion still stands... it is slick marketing of enough good stuff to sell it, but too much bad stuff to be worth it...

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-27-2006, 09:36 PM
Edwin,

Thanks for your post.

“you must be getting quite a bit of the money that this slick marketing scheme is generating... I invite those following this topic to note the exorbitant fee's that are charged for seminars... to so empassionately espouse it... my opinion still stands... it is slick marketing of enough good stuff to sell it, but too much bad stuff to be worth it...”

I have at no time been paid by anyone from the TFT group. The purpose of this post was and still is to stimulate debate and have a good time while doing so. I have been honest and open in my discussion and have accused no one of being dishonest or sneaky when they disagree with what I have said. It is a shame you employed this strategy Edwin. I have been enjoying our discussion this whole time and have had no malicious thoughts towards you. None of my comments or statements of fact have been designed to bring you low or discredit you. I do not get angry if people disagree with me. So, moving on…

The point of practicing TFT is to understand what violence is and how it works. We are not TFT’ing someone, we are doing violence to them. I find that this understanding is complementary to my studies in Aikido. To understand violence is to be better able to deal with it.

“"Blocking and countering is a very dangerous game to play. This kind of tit for tat fighting lies in the realm of combat sport and has no relevance in the realm of asocial violence."
this is exactly my point... a fight, whether in a ring or in a sd situation IS a dynamic situation that does involve alot of actions and reactions on both sides... even IF you break his arm, it is still possible that the attacker can continue to fight….””

Yes, it is possible that the attacker may be able to continue to fight. The point of getting an injury is that it creates a window of opportunity to get another one. Once we have broken our attacker’s elbow why would we stop? We would not. If we were smart we would get another injury…. then another…. until the attacker is completely non-functional. The point of getting an injury is so as to be able to get another, to get as many injuries as you need to be able to walk away knowing that the job is done.

“TFT reminds me of a young friend of mine who boldly stated at our first meeting "no martial art can stop me... i can knock anyone out"...”

I disagree with the first part of what your friend said. No one is undefeatable. “One punch-ten seconds” is a boxing term that comes to mind. I agree with the second part of his statement though. Your friend could knock anyone out. No one is immune to a punch to the head. If he lands one… then its time for catnap! No one is immune to violence.

“and i have frequently choked or tapped him out...” How long does it take someone to become unconscious from a chokehold? Lets say 3 seconds approx. That’s one-one thousand, two-one thousand, tree-one thousand… I for one would have had my thumb in your eye after 1sec.

Another note to add to the concept of making someone submit. I have read a story about a man who was attacked by two assailants. Using his convincing ju-jitsu skills he knocked out one and made the other one submit. As the attacker “tapped out” our skilled man summarily released the attacker as he trained to do and was then stabbed repeatedly with a knife. You do what you train. This is the danger of combat “sport”. When you are doing violence on someone for real you don’t listen to tap outs. You do not train yourself to acknowledge even subconsciously the idea of releasing a submissive opponent. Social conventions are used frequently by these attackers to gain the advantage in such situations.

“you must completely defend yourself, and completely control your attacker...”

We can completely control our attacker by taking away his ability to do anything at all (walk, see, hear, breath etc). To use violence to defend oneself is a sound concept because when we perform a violent act, when we damage a human being and bring them to a point where they can no longer function normally then not only have we controlled them, we have also defended ourselves.

I look forward to an ongoing and civil debate with you Edwin.

Thanks again.


Kristian.
Sydney.

Michael O'Brien
02-27-2006, 09:47 PM
Kristian,

Good post and I agree with most of it. One more thing to bring to the mix though is regarding the statement you made:


Once we have broken our attacker's elbow why would we stop? We would not. If we were smart we would get another injury…. then another…. until the attacker is completely non-functional. The point of getting an injury is so as to be able to get another, to get as many injuries as you need to be able to walk away knowing that the job is done.


In most cases the law states you can only do enough "violence" to end the threat. Once you move beyond that it is no longer self-defense it is assult on your part. So if you break the elbow, then disloate the shoulder, then snap the knee and finally break the nose odds are that you are the one going to jail.

That is unless you are willing to leave your would be assilant lying in the street and walk away from the situation, which is what I did actually. I made sure he was "ok", he was unconsious; Then I left, called the police with an anonymous call that they might want to send someone to check on him.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
02-27-2006, 10:48 PM
Michael,

I'm glad to hear about your success story. Sounds to me like you did the right thing. After all you are still alive. That is the most important thing.

There are many legalities involved with the "doing of violence". I am not familiar with them all. Needless to say that I would like to, if possible, make that annoymous call for the police to visit an unconcious assailant as well, if the opportunity should arise.

Regards

Kristian.
Sydney.

Michael O'Brien
02-27-2006, 10:55 PM
Michael,

I'm glad to hear about your success story. Sounds to me like you did the right thing. After all you are still alive. That is the most important thing.

Kristian,
I agree and tell people all the time "The good encounter is the one that I am able to walk away from".

Hopefully it will never happen again for either of us.

mike valentine
02-27-2006, 11:23 PM
Mike,

I too have had similar situations of leaving beaten attackers broken and bleeding only to call them some help.However the legalities of using "too much force"never entered my mind when initially confronted by these foes.One strike that causes your opponent to fall and crack his head on the pavement can be just as lethal as reapeated stomping to the skull.Same result,death by fractured skull but vastly different method of arriving there.So for me self defence is about getting myself home safe and sound,you can't think of the consequences of your actions befor you do them as this could easilly get you second guessing yourself and inturn seriously hurt if not killed.

What i can say is just because you know how to really injure someone doesn't mean you need to.In fact learning the subtle differences between a "social" confrontation and an "asocial" one, will help you walk away from pointless engagements,it will also help you realise when it is time to act and when that time arises you must do so "now".

Regards
Mike V

Jorx
03-08-2006, 07:13 AM
Kristian: "and i have frequently choked or tapped him out..." How long does it take someone to become unconscious from a chokehold? Lets say 3 seconds approx. That's one-one thousand, two-one thousand, tree-one thousand… I for one would have had my thumb in your eye after 1sec."

What are you trying to say? That someone is going to thumb me while I choke them (let's not go there how I ended up doing a choke in a streetfight anyway)? That's why you have different tactics in a streetfight... I always hide my head anyway. I had an ex-Sepc-ops guy try to grab and break my fingers and reach for my eyes when I choked him... he couldn't. The head and fingers were hidden as they should be. Also I for sure COULD have heelkicked him in the groin. But it was a friendly grappling match:) He just resorted to dirty tactics when he was stuck. I did not expect it yet was safe.

The delivery system is developed in competitive setting.

Mike: Jorx,i'm sure in a competitive enviroment my beautiful wife would be no match for you but in a real life situation you should never underestimate a truelly determined foe.Hell lose the googles,gloves,groin protection etc and i'll lie on my back,let you straddle me and simulate a rape,with very little strength i'll be the one LOL,you my friend will be seeking an E.R.In real violence THERE ARE NO RULES get it.That means no tapouts,submissions or count outs,just life and death.Untill you get your head around this concept you won't fully comprehend what TFT is about,so maybe your uninformed biased opions on the subject would best be kept to yourself.I could and should go on but can't be bothered.

(Un)fortunately one CAN NOT PRACTICE life and death. And all "trying" to do so remains fake at all times. Therefore it is best to find a best alternative with minimal rules yet minimal acceptable injury rate and practice that.

I have been in a "dead" MA setting for over 6 years. Whatever the form is if the core is cooperative practice it will always be non-functional.

Roy Dean
03-09-2006, 01:03 PM
"Violence is about injury. Period. Joe smith can use violence just as well as any highly trained martial artist because violence does not use strength, speed etc as a means of domination. It uses destruction. When Joe smith gets an injury on our highly trained martial artist (lets call him "Barry"), then suddenly there is no more competition. Barry is now just a man with an injury. You are talking about a competition between skill in martial arts and no skill."

I just can't get over this statement. Attributes (power, speed, flexibility, timing, etc) are what make techniques effective. Violence doesn't use strength or speed as a means of domination? I would venture to say that a violent act is MUCH MORE easily thwarted if it wasn't fueled by strength, speed, aggressiveness, and killer instinct.

If a martial artist is highly trained, then it is quite possible to keep going after an injury. I've done it, several times, and if you take a look at the last UFC, middleweight champion Rich Franklin fought 4 rounds with a broken hand! And had a dominating performance. Heart and toughness, for both him and his opponent, David Loiseau.

And eye gouges against rear chokes are a VERY POOR method of escape. Largely ineffective, and the time would be better spent trying to improve your position. After all, if you're in that inferior position, eye gouging will likely tick off your opponent to the point where now he'll want to do a face choke, breaking your teeth and jaw.

My 2 cents.

Roy Dean

www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com

Jorx
03-10-2006, 04:01 AM
Excellent point Roy. You guys speak of violence as it would be some kind of separate entity.

Talk about Mike Tyson ear-biting violence vs. Mike Valentine's wife's eye gouging violence...

mike valentine
03-11-2006, 12:36 AM
Hey boys and girls,

I don't seem to recall anyone mentioning "eyegouging", if you are going to just gouge the eye not only will it serve to(as Roy pointed out)piss your attacker off more it really gives you no advantage.It's a completely different story however if you completely destroy the eyeball,jamming your fingers or thumb through the eyeball itself upto your second knuckle.Now you have a foe more concerned with dealing with his ruptured eye than applying that face choke.I'm sure there's people out there who could continue on with this devistating injury,though as yet i've never meet one.

Roy,"true" violence has nothing to do with technique,sure it can help you get the job done more efficiently whilst looking good but it doesn't take much training to hit someone across the skull with a tireiron or baseballbat.Being fit,strong and well trained in any MA won't help if you're shot multiple times in the chest or runover at high speed by a pickup truck.Intent is needed,or that killer instinct and aggressiveness of which you speak,no one denies this, but clearly you don't need to be trained to REALLY hurt someone.

I to have fought many times with injuries(broken knuckles,ruptured ear etc) and gone on to win but none of these fights have been in an "asocial" experience.The UFC has rules,it is a competition,this has nothing to do with a real "asocial"enviroment.Jeff Fenech a three time world boxing champion fought most of his fights with two broken hands.Is he tough and have a big heart,hell yeah i know this from personal experience,does that mean he would get up after having his trachea ruptured,of course not.My scariest moment during a confrontation came after hitting a man in the side of the neck and watching him fall like a bag of potatoes,of all the many altercations i've been in this was the only one where i knew it was truelly me or him,thankfully he survived but my true intent at the time was to end him.

Jorx,violence and competitive sport are two entirely different entities.If by now you don't or refuse to get it maybe you never will.Real violence is about one thing and one thing only DESTRUCTION,competition is about winning within a set of rules.You seem to be very well read on various MA and judging by your previous posts on this and other subjects seem to enjoy giving others the opion that you are some "demigod"of all things martial, i for one don't buy it.It appears that anything that doesn't fit into your own realm of training or understanding can't be any good,please tell us again how all the top Kung-fu guys etc.in your neck of the woods are training in what you are now.I on the other hand would rather wait untill i know first hand what works and what does not befor denigrating it as folly.There is something to be learned from all MA,take what works for you and disregard the rest(i'm sure someone of known ability had that same idea),if you continually keep your head buried in the sand someone will eventually kick you in the arse.

Just a few facts: Many of your beloved former and current UFC competitors have and do train in TFT.and are friends of the founder Tim Larkin.
The U.S military be it S.E.A.L.S Delta Force etc.use this stuff as do many of there Police Departments.
I personally know this stuff works.
Obviously you Jorx have absolutely no idea of the training methodoligies used in TFT and are stuck on the notion that it won't work,thats cool i was young once too and thought i knew it all,hope you're never confronted by a real "asocial" threat cause your arrogance and bravado may get you hurt.Monsters won't tap or play by any rules.

Just remember guys "that you do what you train",it's about subconcsience muscle memory when the shit really hits the fan.While you might believe you can go from one mindset to another in the middle of a "true confrontation" you would be sadly wrong.Those moments of hesitation when changing mindset could get you seriously hurt if not killed.

Regards
Mike V
Ps Mike Tyson's ear bitting v's my wife's thumb in the back of your eyesocket(note:not a gouge)hell i think i know which would be a more devastating injury,Evander could continue to fight,didn't need urgent medical attention, so was it a "real injury",i think not.Try boxing with your pupil runing down you cheek.Maybe some of you guys will never get it.

Jorx
03-11-2006, 02:25 AM
Can you give me an explanation how you train shoving your finger up to the second knuckle in someones eye? How do you program that subtle muscle memory for that movement? How do you "train" violence?

I brought you an example how Vunak's guys train live grappling with stakes tied to necks so they can actually practice biting a neck of someone resisting and ACTUALLY tearing out a piece of meat. Not a very sane method in my eyes but I can clearly see that one learns an actual skill that way.

What do you do? To me it seems that you do prearranged patterns. Please, show me wrong - because my knowledge about TFT is superficial - only from websites and your talk here.

I'm no demi nor quarter god of all things martial. I just think that to aquire any skill one must train against the physical resistance the situation gives to you. And the more "fundamental" or "core" this resistance is the more functional the skill and the details can be easily added. However if this core is missing - no matter how fine and real details you practice you never get the actual skill.

It's like... to me the sport and gym setting is like a lab in science. Is the lab setting the same as real life? No.. however in lab we learn and discover things about the real world because that is the best "hard science" method we yet have.

And please do not fall into calling names and using demagogic sentences like "Please tell me how all best kung-fu guys are training in what you train now." There are people who can't read and believe Earth is still flat too. There are many people who believe blowing themselves up with others will get them to heaven to drink wine and be served by young beautiful women. Has this ANY relevance to this what we are talking about now? No.

Jorx
03-11-2006, 02:33 AM
Oh and can you give out ANY names of these current and former UFC competitors so I could check that?

Michael O'Brien
03-11-2006, 01:10 PM
Being fit,strong and well trained in any MA won't help if you're shot multiple times in the chest or runover at high speed by a pickup truck.Intent is needed,or that killer instinct and aggressiveness of which you speak,no one denies this, but clearly you don't need to be trained to REALLY hurt someone.


So TFT training will protect me and keep me alive while I get shot multiple times in the chest and runover at high speed by a pickup truck while Aikido won't.


The U.S military be it S.E.A.L.S Delta Force etc.use this stuff as do many of there Police Departments.


And yet police offiers and military special forces personel still die every day in confrontations just like trained martial artists.


"asocial"

Definition - someone who does not conform to the social norm. Make sure you kill the high school girl with her nose and eyebrow pierced. Let's quit try to use cutesy words and stick to the basic context here, an attack on the street.


Just remember guys "that you do what you train",it's about subconcsience muscle memory when the shit really hits the fan.While you might believe you can go from one mindset to another in the middle of a "true confrontation" you would be sadly wrong.Those moments of hesitation when changing mindset could get you seriously hurt if not killed.


So when you train you shove your finger to the 2nd knuckle in your partners eyes. You throw full contact blows to the throat and crush their windpipe. You break elbows and knees. You throw full contact blows to the groin. Must be hard to find regular training partners I would think?

Yes, I'm being somewhat antagonistic in my points I'm making. But having read most of the website and most of your posts, you're not preaching anything I have already heard and learned in more than martial arts dojo and I'm sure that is the case for many people here.

Street survival is about a mindset more than training in my opinion. If you have the mindset that you are willing to take a human life, no questions asked, if it comes to that point you're ok. It doesn't matter if you studied Aikido, TFT, or nothing at all, a survival instict will kick in and take over. However, a lot of people can not handle the thought of seriously injuring or killing another human being no matter what the circumstances. Those people will die no matter what training they have had.

Just my opinions on a Saturday morning. Take them for what they're worth and your mileage may vary. :)

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
03-12-2006, 06:14 PM
Michael,

Great post. Thanks again for your thoughts. I'd just like to say again:

"No one is immune to violence."

TFT, Nin-jitsu, Aikido or whatever is not going to change that.

Jorgen,

You said:

"I had an ex-Sepc-ops guy try to grab and break my fingers and reach for my eyes when I choked him... he couldn't."

Can we have a name of this guy? My cousin's best friend had an ex-girlfriend whose uncle was an ex-spec-ops guy! Maybe it's the same guy?!? Ha Ha Ha. Sorry Jorgen, I could not resist. I'm just having fun. No offence intended.

I have a sneaking suspicion that most spec-ops guys would have you waking up dead somewhere before you knew what happened, if they were serious. I would also hazard a guess to suggest that if he had not engaged you in a "social" or competitive test of strength to see who's techniques were better then he would have come out with the nasty stuff first. Obviously I don't know this ex-spec-ops guy you are talking about but chances are he did not live to be an "EX"-spec-ops guy by being crap at his job. Think about it for a second Jorgen.

Because we are having a few problems with terminology here lets look at a few meanings:

Social Violence: This is a form of violence where the aim of the violent interaction is to communicate something. Eg: "That is my girlfriend, don't look at her." or "I am the dominant male here. This is my territory. Go away!" or even: "My martial arts ability is better than yours. Lets fight under some rules and guidelines so that we do not seriously injure each other in order to work out who is stronger and/or technically better."

Asocial Violence: This is a form of violence where the sole purpose of the interaction is to bring all communication to an end. There is no communication. It is one person doing violence on another to satisfy some urge, craving or desire which the asocial person may be experiencing at the time (or even simply to do a job, as is the case with an assassin). The purpose of asocial violence is to rape, cause serious injury or kill.

This discussion is proving to be a hell of a lot of fun. My thanks goes to all those who have taken the time to post so far.

Regards.

Kristian.
Sydney.

Jorx
03-13-2006, 03:19 AM
Kristian: please answer the following questions what I asked:

1. How do you train shoving a finger up to 2nd knuckle in someones eyesocket?

2. How do you train this "asocial violence" and responding to it with "more asocial violence" in a training setting?

I live in Estonia so this guy is noone you know. If you want to investigate this line further I'd prefer to do it in private messages.

I do not question the fact that if we had an all-out encouter there's a good chance I get my ass kicked or I get killed. Especially if he would attack me so that I'd be unaware of it. I was just pointing out that I have had experience when I am already on someones back and choking and he goes for my eyes and fingers and I was safe. The example was to illustrate position over technique approach - the back position is superior for anything - choking, heelikicking to nuts, gouging the eyes. Therefore in my mind as I am the labelled the "sport" guy here it should be that for example most of the time training you should spend getting to superior position. And that remains the same through sport grappling setting -> mma setting -> pure vale tudo setting -> self-defence setting. If you (in the same order) from there try to choke -> punch -> elbow to the spine -> gouge eyes is more of a MINDSET not technique thing. Same thing in standup striking and clinchfigting. I want to develop myself a strong ACTUALLY working delivery system on which I can base any techniques.

And please do not start with "I wouldn't want to go to ground blah blah..." the back position thing was an example.

Jorx
03-15-2006, 02:05 AM
Ask concrete questions and there is silence...

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
03-15-2006, 09:01 PM
Jorgen,

Patience grasshopper, patience... Some people, like myself, have to work for a living. Despite your impatience I must commend you on your thirst for knowledge. I'm just not sure I want to "throw pearls"... I am also concerned about giving away other peoples intellectual property.

I will give you this in response however. To answer your concrete questions:

1. Look at the target. Touch the target. Transfer load (Your body weight will be sufficient).

2. Go to a mirror. Look at yourself the way a stranger would, like you've never laid eyes on yourself before. You don't know this person in the mirror. You don't know his personality, if he is a nice guy, you don't care. You don't know this person has studied martial arts and you don't care. The image in the mirror is nothing to you. You want to see this person in the mirror die by any means necessary.

Now Jorgen. When you train look at your opponent this way. Have fun.

These are very simplified answers. If you want more information I would suggest, at the risk of upsetting Edwin (He thinks I am a TFT marketing guru!), that you get hold of a TFT DVD and find out for yourself. Or you could get hold of one of Tim's free newsletters. I'm not doing the hard sell Jorgen. To quote Tim from one of his more recent newsletters:

"Our return policy lets you check it out on me and see what you
think. Please write me back when you have. I'd like to hear your
thoughts!"

So there you go.

In future Jorgen I would suggest that when you are conversing on these internet sites, when you are addressing others or simply proclaiming your thoughts from the rooftops, that you do so as though the person were sitting right there in front of you.


Regards

Kristian.
Sydney.

mike valentine
03-15-2006, 10:07 PM
Mike,
As somewhat of an antagonist myself i quite enjoyed your last post,it seems that your last paragraph(while much more articulate than i could muster)basically outlines what i've been saying from the getgo.If ever you get "Down Under"look me up and i'd be more than happy to show you first hand how we train.One thing though, i've only used the term asocial in regards to violence,so if that school girl with the piercings attacked me with a gun,knife,bat etc i would try to kill her.

Again for the last time,i'm not trying to convert anyone to TFT,all MA has its good and bad points,it's just that in training in this stuff i have been able to disregard alot of my previous ideas on what constituted a fight and how to win one more effectively.For me now competition is a distant memory,it's all about survival.

Jorx,sorry for the delay i forgot that the whole world revolves around yourself.Believe it or not responding to you is at the bottom of my priority list however if i must.As it seems quite apparent that you don't/won't believe anything i write here at face value and that for you seeing trully is believing i suggest you attend a course where all your questions can be professionally answered right there on the mat.You admit yourself that the spec-ops guy would probably take you out has it never crossed your mind to find out and train in some of the things they do?It has nothing to do with competition.It's all about results.

As a side note and please i'm not telling you what to do,may i suggest that you spend less time intellectualising the MA and more time actually doing practical training.While i'm at it i would suggest that i've forgotten more about useful training practices than you've ever learnt and that telling people how to respond to your posts is downright rude and inflammetory.In saying that if i myself has upset you i do apologise,it was never my intent.

Regards
Mike V
Oz

Ps:I did some training with a workmate who also happens to instruct BJJ today,guess what,after getting out of a few holds and locks(with his protests of "you can't do that,that's illegal" etc.)i think i have a new training partner.I guess feeling not seeing may be the real answer.

Michael O'Brien
03-15-2006, 10:25 PM
Mike,
As somewhat of an antagonist myself i quite enjoyed your last post,it seems that your last paragraph(while much more articulate than i could muster)basically outlines what i've been saying from the getgo.If ever you get "Down Under"look me up and i'd be more than happy to show you first hand how we train.

Mike,
I definitely will look you up if I ever have the opportunity to travel in your direction; I love finding new people to train with, even if for a brief period of time. That offer extends both ways, if you ever find yourself near Nashville, Tn let me know and we'll grab some mat time together.

mike valentine
03-15-2006, 10:54 PM
Mike,
I hope to be in your part of the world within the next 18mths,along time i know but with a young family it's hard.

Regards
Mike V
Oz

Jorx
03-16-2006, 03:24 PM
"In future Jorgen I would suggest that when you are conversing on these internet sites, when you are addressing others or simply proclaiming your thoughts from the rooftops, that you do so as though the person were sitting right there in front of you."

Kristian: No problem with that. I'd love to train with all you guys and test and experiment and see what turns out.

Same goes for Mike - I think you and your workmate just did not find out that you should be doing the same thing. Not that hard to work something out. I'd suggest you give him another try but maybe he's not just that kind of guy to be able to make the transition.

And just for the record - right now I train 7 days a week throw in an occasional rest day sometimes. Wonderful world of being an uni student before the exams start.

However... you guys ever happen to travel to Malayisia or Singapore? Cause I have no mates any nearer who could bring this discussion from theory (which gets us nowhere) to practice?

Michael O'Brien
03-16-2006, 04:38 PM
Mike,
I hope to be in your part of the world within the next 18mths,along time i know but with a young family it's hard.

Regards
Mike V
Oz

I understand completely. I dropped you an e-mail with my contact information; That way you can just leave it in your mailbox until you need it. LOL