PDA

View Full Version : Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


aikidodragon
01-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Shodokan Tomiki why do we have two names for what looks like the same art?
Here's how it all started;
I was invited to go train withthe university Aikido clube, and they train Tomiki. Well I started researching this style. I am trying to find out as mutch as possible about this style before meating these people. And one thing I have noticed is that this style of Aikido has two names.
Yes yes I know that a lot of people don't think that the Shodokan/Tomiki styles are not Aikido, Kill me later.
And why all the issues with calling it Aikido? Tomiki trained under O Sensei as well as with Jigoro Kano, who also trained with O Sensei.
So someone please please help me understand these questions.
Thank you for putting up with me.

crbateman
01-15-2006, 05:06 PM
I'll address a couple of your questions. Shodokan is the name of the style. Tomiki is the name of the originator of the style. The use of "Tomiki Aikido" is a euphemism to describe the style originated by Tomiki.

Also, Jigaro Kano did not study with O'Sensei, but was impressed by him. Kenji Tomiki was one of the high-ranking Kano students who was dispatched by him to study with O'Sensei, in order to bring a better sense of what he was doing back to judo.

Train well.

PeterR
01-15-2006, 07:11 PM
Hi Sara;

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

Please read http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/name.html

The site is of course the best point of reference for Shodokan.

Several later students of Kano were dispatched to Ueshiba and Tomiki was encouraged to continue but as I understand it Tomiki found Ueshiba through friends.

aikidodragon
01-15-2006, 08:09 PM
Thank you Peter I will check out the links you suggested. There is just so mutch to read, and it seems like not everyone can agree. O well thats what I get for using the internet. It is nice to talk to someone who trains Shodokan, your information and help is of grai value to me.
I am grateful for any information from anyone.

crbateman
01-15-2006, 08:59 PM
Peter, thanks for correcting my mea culpa. I was thinking of Mochizuki Sensei, who was one of those sent to Ueshiba by Dr. Kano in 1930. This was 4 years after Tomiki began training with O'Sensei, and 20 years after he began with Kano. That was like a hundred years ago, and I don't remember so good no more... :D

PeterR
01-15-2006, 09:20 PM
Interestingly some others who should know also got it wrong - most noteable Chiba in an interview. Of course he may have got it from a previous error as he was not on the scene.

According to the Shodokan Honbu profile on Tomiki he only met Kano 2 years before meeting Ueshiba. He started Judo in school age 10 in 1910.

Shoot me - I like historical context.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/profile1.html

James Smithe
01-15-2006, 09:25 PM
Kenji Tomiki preferred the name Shodokan. He thought it was arrogant to name a style after himself. But people call it Tomiki anyway.

aikidodragon
01-15-2006, 09:50 PM
Yes but why did the name Tomiki Aikido stick, I am a Judoka And we don't call it Kano Judo.
I wonder why that happened.

crbateman
01-16-2006, 08:30 AM
Sara, pretty much all modern Judo is attributed to that of Dr. Kano, so "Kano Judo" goes without saying. But since all Aikido does not come from that of Kenji Tomiki, "Tomiki Aikido" is indeed a telling description, just not one that Tomiki himself would give it. That does not explain why Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is not called "Tohei Aikido" or why Yoshinkan Aikido is not called "Shioda Aikido", but perhaps because there is also a Shotokan style of Karate, the name "Tomiki Aikido" stuck, to avoid the confusion that might have been caused because of the similarity of names "Shodokan" and "Shotokan". I don't know for sure, it's just my guess. Anyway, the name is not as important as the training. I hope you do well.

deepsoup
01-16-2006, 10:09 AM
Yes but why did the name Tomiki Aikido stick, I am a Judoka And we don't call it Kano Judo.
I wonder why that happened.

My understanding of it is this:

Its probably because Tomiki K began developing his ideas well before the "split" with the Aikikai. I guess people started to talk about "Tomiki Aikido" as a shorthand for "that stuff that Tomiki is doing", but the man himself didn't regard it as anything other than just plain "Aikido" so resisted giving it a name (and definitely disapproved of people using his own name that way).

It was only when the Shodokan dojo was founded that the style acquired a name - the name of its honbu dojo.

No doubt Peter will be along shortly to correct my shaky history. :)

Sean
x

PeterR
01-16-2006, 06:34 PM
Hi Sean;

That's basically it. The name Shodokan has become associated with a particular curriculum and place so there was some reason for maintaining a broader description in the minds of some, particularly a few of Nariyama Shihan's sempai. In Japan that function was provided by the Japan Aikido Association which is now completely Shodokan.

I think one of the more interesting aspects of Tomiki's Aikido is the strongly developed curriculum and how it evolved. Several well respected non-Japanese Aikidoists learned from Tomiki in the 50s and early 60s and teach in that way. Shodokan Aikido developed continuously while Tomiki was alive and to an extent still does. I think this is one of the reasons the Tomiki designation still exists.

But again - what really matters is what happens on the mat.

odudog
01-18-2006, 01:31 PM
This issue with calling Shodokan Aikido tends to be on how it is applied. Shodokan has a competition aspect to how they practice. Tomiki Sensei had to do this so that he could teach at a college for the college didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property. This way the art now becomes a sport and Japanese colleges love to have sports clubs on campus. Osensei said that Aikido should not be a competition hence there are no tournaments for trophies or weight class champions. This is why some people get all rilled up when Shodokan is referred to as Aikido.

Chuck Clark
01-18-2006, 02:50 PM
Shodokan has a competition aspect to how they practice. Tomiki Sensei had to do this so that he could teach at a college for the college didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property.

I don't think this is quite the way it happened. Waseda University had other budo clubs, including aikido connected with the Ueshiba Aikikai. I think it was because in order for it to be a "for credit course" rather than a "club" they had to be able to measure and quantify the student's learning as in a "win-lose" contest measurement. I have never heard of the idea that Waseda officials didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property. University kendo and judo aren't passive, I can assure you.

aikidodragon
01-18-2006, 03:43 PM
Judo the gentle way. Yah right.

akiy
01-18-2006, 04:18 PM
Judo the gentle way. Yah right.
Personally, I disagree with the translation of "ju" (as in "judo," "jujutsu") as "gentle." Rather, I use the translation of "pliable" myself.

-- Jun

rorenshi
01-18-2006, 07:05 PM
The term shodokan Tomiki is along exactly the same lines as Shotokan karate-do. Shodo is Japanese for(I think)calligraphy and the kan is yet another word fo style. Tomiki-san wanted his style to be like the flowing of a brush over paper,just as Ueshiba-shihan wanted his style to represent a willow tree bending rather than breaking in heavy snow. The name is just a sort of promotional thing, from the originators years. It was common place to give a new art its own "public name". Think of all the other multi-named martial arts...kodokan judo, aikikai aikido, shotokan karate-do, san shi kai karate...all these are just bits of advertisment or a summary of the styles principals.

Methinks.

PeterR
01-18-2006, 07:32 PM
My God lets all make up things that sound good.

Chuck is generally right about Waseda. Shodokan dogma was that Tomiki was toying with the idea before hand but I do think the imputus came from Waseda's requirement. Untill that time Tomiki was teaching Aikido to Judo guys on the side so it never became an issue. A non-competivie Aikikai club (remember Tomiki never stopped being a member of Aikikai) was started soon after.

The Sho of Shodokan is the same as the Sho of Showa, the name of the last emperor. It is also related to the name where his Honbu dojo was founded - the Showacho district of Osaka. Sho means enlightened, Do path, Kan place.

crbateman
01-18-2006, 08:28 PM
Stop holding back, Peter... Tell us what you THINK... :D

Josh Reyer
01-18-2006, 09:07 PM
Not to mention that the "sho" of Shodokan is actually "shou", i.e., an elongated "o" sound. The "sho" of "shodo", calligraphy (actually "shodou"), is not elongated.

昭道館 - しょうどうかん - Shoudoukan

書道 - しょどう - Shodou

PeterR
01-18-2006, 09:08 PM
The thing is the information is out there - if one takes a look.

According to the Shodokan Honbu web site the English translation of Shodokan is 'place for identifying the way'.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/jaa.html

Shiroi Usagi
01-19-2006, 12:03 AM
hey, sorry if this is a bit unrelated, but how many different types of aikido are there?

PeterR
01-19-2006, 01:00 AM
Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido scroll down to styles.

Not totally comprehensive but enough to give an idea.

IlyasDexter
01-23-2006, 08:39 AM
Off the point a little but Tomiki Sensei also developed the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jutsu Kata and given that you are a Judoka you should feel right at home with this system of Aikido

Yann Golanski
01-23-2006, 09:10 AM
Off the point a little but Tomiki Sensei also developed the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jutsu Kata and given that you are a Judoka you should feel right at home with this system of Aikido

Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...

IlyasDexter
01-23-2006, 10:13 AM
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...

Lets look at principle not technique and there is more in common than you think.
aigamae ate and shomen ate:share the some priciple as the first technique from Judo Itsutsu no kata and tai the first technique from koshiki no kata.
gyakugamae ate: kodaore 7th technique Judo koshiki no kata
gedan ate: uchi kudaki 8th technique koshiki no kata
ushiro ate: ryokuhi and shikoro dori 3rd and 11th techniques of koshiki no kata
There are many others hiki taoshi for example. Tomiki Sensei in his teachings on the modernisation of Ju Jutsu classified Ju jutsu technique into four catogories:
1.Atemi Waza
2.Kansetsu Waza
3.Nage Waza
4.Katamae Waza
In Judo we practice Nage waza and Katamae waza in Aikido we practice Atemi waza and Kansetsu waza. And he personally said to my sensei that there is about a 30% crossover between Judo and Aikido.And to quote Tomiki Sensei from his book Judo appendix Aikido "Aiki means making your spirit fit in with your opponent's. After all it means the samething as the principle of gentleness (Ju), for it is an explanation of the priciple from within."

aikidodragon
01-23-2006, 10:48 AM
This is really sad I know, but I have been Judo for 4 almost 5 years. and I did not know how many katas we had. I knew about nage no kata, and I had been told that there were,but I did not know what they are or what techniques were in them. My first dojo was a randory compition dojo only. Nage no kata was the only taught, and it was just for the black belt test.

James Smithe
01-23-2006, 06:58 PM
Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yann Golanski wrote:
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...



Lets look at principle not technique and there is more in common than you think.
aigamae ate and shomen ate:share the some priciple as the first technique from Judo Itsutsu no kata and tai the first technique from koshiki no kata.
gyakugamae ate: kodaore 7th technique Judo koshiki no kata
gedan ate: uchi kudaki 8th technique koshiki no kata
ushiro ate: ryokuhi and shikoro dori 3rd and 11th techniques of koshiki no kata
There are many others hiki taoshi for example. Tomiki Sensei in his teachings on the modernisation of Ju Jutsu classified Ju jutsu technique into four catogories:
1.Atemi Waza
2.Kansetsu Waza
3.Nage Waza
4.Katamae Waza
In Judo we practice Nage waza and Katamae waza in Aikido we practice Atemi waza and Kansetsu waza. And he personally said to my sensei that there is about a 30% crossover between Judo and Aikido.And to quote Tomiki Sensei from his book Judo appendix Aikido "Aiki means making your spirit fit in with your opponent's. After all it means the samething as the principle of gentleness (Ju), for it is an explanation of the priciple from within."

What the heck are you saying? Just because someone might do the Shodokan style doesn't mean they would know what the heck you are saying. Koshiki no. WTF? In Judo you only practice moves for competition which makes you weak. If kensetsu and whatever else were allowed an Aikido lurker would mop the floor with those guys. I don't think the stuff in black is the same.

PeterR
01-23-2006, 07:02 PM
By coincidence two of my Aikido students watched separate Judo tapes. One of Mifune demonstrating kata and randori and one of Kano demonstrating kata. I met them separately on the same day and both told me about the tape and said it looked just like Aikido. You know it does.

PeterR
01-23-2006, 08:23 PM
What the heck are you saying? Just because someone might do the Shodokan style doesn't mean they would know what the heck you are saying. Koshiki no. WTF? In Judo you only practice moves for competition which makes you weak. If kensetsu and whatever else were allowed an Aikido lurker would mop the floor with those guys. I don't think the stuff in black is the same.
James;

The relation to Judo techniques is talked about on the Shodokan Honbu Homepage and in more detail in the book Aikido: Tradition and the Competitive Edge. Although Tomiki made a point of not bringing in techniques not taught to him by Ueshiba (keeping Aikido and Judo training separate) there is about a 30% technical overlap between the two arts (some consider it even more). Its not expected for Dan grades in Shodokan to perform Judo kata but it is part of the education to understand the broader relationship between Aikido and other Japanese arts.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi4.html

The quote in black is from Tomiki himself. I think its fair to say he understood both arts to a high degree.

I would not dismiss Judo guys so easily. Have you done any Judo?

PeterR
01-23-2006, 10:37 PM
By the by more detail on the Koshiki no Kata can be found here (http://judoinfo.com/koshiki.htm) and in even more detail here (http://web1.vattnet.com/judo/koshikinokata.html). An Aikidoist reading the latter will see a lot that is familiar - the concept of Aiki, oneness with the Universe, very esoteric. Those that are into the Chinese connection to Japanese martial arts will find something also.

Since it is meant to be practiced in full armor you wont see much of the dogi grabbing found in Judo randori - in fact it looks like Aikido. This was the kata my student was watching that Kano demonstrated (see my posts above).

I personally find this kata seriously cool.

James Smithe
01-23-2006, 10:37 PM
I would not dismiss Judo guys so easily. Have you done any Judo?

Do Judo? No way! I'd rather fight against it to see what it's like. The gentle way? Most of the serious Judo players I know are very musclular. I was saying that they have become weak because they only train for competition and only rely on brute strength. They hardly train joint locking techniques because it's not allowed in competition. I'd like to see them grab me while I shomen-ate their butt. Okay I know that part is just talking trash. Anyways.....
Judo players usually lose to lurkers for some reason. I was reading Chuck Clark's post about how one of his student went to a Judo competition and used gedan-ate and they were like WTF just happened. Dude Tohei beat their butt. I'm nowhere as good as Tohei so that's not a good example.

Peter. What is up with this picture?

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery_data/505/3611shodothug_small-med.jpg

PeterR
01-23-2006, 11:18 PM
Shodothug was coined by a non-Shodokan Aikidoist on this very forum as a friendly joke. Its sort of become a running gag. The picture was drawn by Rob Hori - good friend and training partner.

Hmmm I got a Judo story - perhaps I'll start a new thread to tell it.

My experience cross-training in Judo has given me different impressions.

James Smithe
01-23-2006, 11:24 PM
That would be awesome.

PeterR
01-24-2006, 01:12 AM
Tohei knew Judo before he started Aikido - he was also quite the size.

Most Aikidoists wouldn't last against most Judoka. It simply a matter of how they train. I think that the "lurkers" you mention are already a self selective bunch - those willing to put their body on the line - but I definately would not use the word usually.

I was used to full resistance training but based on my experience and talking with other Shodokan Aikido folks that made the same trip two observations come to mind.

1. Shutting down a Judoka's technique is much easier than tossing a Judoka.
2. Judoka can shut your technique down much easier than tossing you.

Detect a trend? I sure can. I've heard Aikidoists from other styles make similar observations.

Shomen-ate works quite well, so does ushio-ate - but your timing has to be real good.

Chuck Clark's gedan-ate story - I wont put words in his mouth but I bet he wont disagree with me.

James Smithe
01-24-2006, 02:48 AM
Most Aikidoists wouldn't last against most Judoka. It simply a matter of how they train. I think that the "lurkers" you mention are already a self selective bunch - those willing to put their body on the line
This paragraph confuses me. The first two sentences remind me of someone who just started Aikido or a part time practioner. How are those willing to put their body on the line a self selective bunch? Sorry I have a low vocabulary.
I'm not like most practioners of Aikido. I have a will to tap it's full potential. I'm not some part time martial artists. I will continue to practice everyday until I reach perfection. Aikido is a martial art above all else it's just not some dance you do in the dojo. All who face me will fall before me one day. However I don't think Aikido's full potential is beating a bunch of Judoka like Tohei did.

PeterR
01-24-2006, 05:14 AM
The first two sentences remind me of someone who just started Aikido or a part time practioner.
That's me alright. Perfect description.

So James - where do you study and for how long.

happysod
01-24-2006, 05:56 AM
However I don't think Aikido's full potential is beating a bunch of Judoka like Tohei did. You have to admit, it wouldn't be a bad start...

I think this thread should be moved into the humour section (grabs popcorn and waits eagerly)

IlyasDexter
01-24-2006, 06:39 AM
This is really sad I know, but I have been Judo for 4 almost 5 years. and I did not know how many katas we had. I knew about nage no kata, and I had been told that there were,but I did not know what they are or what techniques were in them. My first dojo was a randory compition dojo only. Nage no kata was the only taught, and it was just for the black belt test.

I agree with you Sara it is sad that much of Kano Sensei's system seems to be neglected, sport is just a small part of what he gave to us. His system as he taught it comprises of both Randori and Kata. Tomiki Sensei's Aikido system is the same there is both the practice of Randori and Kata. Anyway I still say you should enjoy training in Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido and I sincerely hope you find Dojos that are sincerely dedicated to teaching and preserving the teachings of these two great masters.

IlyasDexter
01-24-2006, 07:08 AM
For the record I'm not a Judoka. I have been studying Tomiki Aikido for 7 years now.
And just for you James Tomiki Sensei has been quoted by one of his senior students as saying
" Don't be conceited about your art. If you come at me with Aikido techniques I will use Judo foot techniques."

L. Camejo
01-24-2006, 10:01 AM
Although very many Judo players are caught up in the "competition only" aspect of things, it is a rare treat to find those who practice it for the :do: .

From my experiences in Judo I can't say that those guys are pushovers (pardon the pun), but if one knows one's Aiki and trains to deal with resistance like they do, then it will be an interesting encounter at the very least.;)

Hmm.. that reminds me of one of my own Judo stories, but I won't bore you guys with that.:)

What I have found with my own Shodokan students who do Judo is that their approach to Judo randori is different and they are less likely to try and muscle technique, preferring to work on precise tai sabaki and a good kuzushi.

Even in Judo newaza they have found ways of utilizing kansetsu waza principles from Aikido to gain leverage to execute Judo pins and chokes.

The blend is just perfect, keeps the Judo guys thinking too, so the learning goes both ways.

I think its a mistake however to underestimate any person, regardless of the art they practice.

Just my 2 cents.

LC:ai::ki:

aikidodragon
01-24-2006, 10:19 AM
Hellow

James please try to shoman uchi me, I have nice epon seo nage wating for you. I can think of a few more throws but I can't spell them.

I can't find the icon,
smile

Ron Tisdale
01-24-2006, 11:15 AM
I think you mean shomen ate...different thing.

Best,
Ron (and I wouldn't challenge someone to do that...could lead to a serious bout of TMJ)

Mark Freeman
01-24-2006, 11:20 AM
I can't find the icon,
smile

Hi Sara, hit the Go Advanced button under the quick reply text box. :) you'll find them there.

I notice your signature is : ki aikido is just origami with people. Is that a good or bad thing ?

regards,

Mark

aikidodragon
01-24-2006, 11:56 AM
:D I am glad some one knows what i am talking about, the strike i was refering to was a strike to the top of the head. I don't know what name to use for it i've herd two or three, so sorry if I use the wrong one, correct me please. I'll git right some day.

aikidodragon
01-24-2006, 12:00 PM
aikido is just orogami with people is a good thing. I foun it on a martial arts humor sight and decided to use it.
there was also
jujitsu: people who will fold your londry for you... while you are still wearing it.
There were some more but those were the two the applyed to me.

Ron Tisdale
01-24-2006, 12:47 PM
Ah, nope my mistake. Shomen uchi is what you were thinking of...

Best,
Ron

Matt Molloy
01-24-2006, 01:42 PM
I think this thread should be moved into the humour section (grabs popcorn and waits eagerly)

Agreed. *brings beer.* :D

Cheers,

Matt.

(Who isn't going to say anything against Judo, at least not whilst the wife's still studying it. :eek: )

jester
01-25-2006, 12:05 AM
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...

Tomiki saw Aikido as part of a broader Judo. I read the book Judo and Aikido (from the 50's) and this is how I still view Tomiki Aikido.

Tomiki broke the Principles of Judo into 2 categories.
1) Aiki Techniques
2) Randori Techniques

Tomiki saw that Judo focused more on Nage-waza and Katamae-waza (both Randori Techniques), and neglected Kansetsu-waza and Atemi-waza (Aiki Techniques).

He said that in order to master Judo, Kansetsu-waza and Atemi-waza could not be overlooked. Especially from the viewpoint of Self-Defense. This is where Aikido came in.

I see Tomiki Aikido and Judo as complimenting each other.

While Judo and Tomiki Aikido don't share the same techniques, the underlying principles are the same. The technique really isn't important from this point of view and they really become the same thing.

I've often heard Tomiki Aikido called Judo at arms length.

James Smithe
01-25-2006, 01:37 AM
Me? No I totally suck. I haven't gotten past the atemiwaza section. I'm confident that if I keep practicing I'll learn all of the Junahon Kata. 17 no biggie. I'll learn them all. I just started taking Aikido seriously. I'll pm the hours I've spent in the dojo if you really want to know.

IlyasDexter
01-25-2006, 11:17 AM
Me? No I totally suck. I haven't gotten past the atemiwaza section. I'm confident that if I keep practicing I'll learn all of the Junahon Kata. 17 no biggie. I'll learn them all. I just started taking Aikido seriously. I'll pm the hours I've spent in the dojo if you really want to know.

No Biggie!!! If you are truly sincere in reaching your full potential in this style of Aikido start showing Tomiki Sensei some respect. Junana no hon Kata is a work of genious, it is limitless in variation and application I'm a NiDan and feel that ive only just begun learning it, my sensei has been doing it for fourty years and its still opening up to her. You have been disagreeing with what myself and other Dan grades have been saying about the Aikido/Judo relationship, we haven't been making it up, it is what Tomiki Sensei's works teach us. Ettiquette is the secret to success in the Japanese martial arts please try to use it to the best of your knowledge at all times. It was very poor thinking and a lack of respect saying you could Shomen ate a Judoka's but when frankly at your level you couldnt shomen ate your way out of a wet paper bag and I doubt if your break falling is at a level you could withstand a Judo throw at high speed. Any way train hard learn from your Sempais and Sensei's, read what you can of Tomiki Sensei and always begin with ettiquette and end with ettiquette and God willing you will come to know the wonderful art that is Tomiki Aikido.

happysod
01-25-2006, 12:28 PM
...God willing you will come to know the wonderful art that is Tomiki Aikido. (wipes tear from eye), that was beautiful man, you guys deserve a shodothug anthem and coat of arms (ripped hakama over recumbent uke on a field of red perhaps)

xuzen
01-25-2006, 10:55 PM
Speaking of Judo and Aikido, I think Tomiki-sama research is very in-depth and academically adequate to answer the relationship between the two arts. The book Tradition and Competitive Edge by Nariyama-sama and Shisida-sama is a good read.

Some fun story to share...

Once upon a time at my Judo dojo, when the sensei was not around, some of the senior judo boyz decide to beg me for instruction. Although in Chinese language this phrase sounds very polite, but in actual fact it is a invitation to test me out.

Judo boyz came in for their typical dogi grip, I shomen-ate'd him. He fell.... I got the first ippon. Second time, he was more wary, I kept my distance... when I sense the opportunity, I went for Gedan-ate. I got the second Ippon.

Next I decided to try to play by their rule. I went in for the grip and try to do judo. I was floored very quickly by De-ashi Harai. Next, the judo boy harmonized me with the mat using Osoto Gari and finally with Tai Otoshi. I love their pinning strategy. After flooring me with Osota Gari, he went instantaneously to Kesa-Gatamae, and transitioned to Yoko-shiho gatamae which I eventually submitted because I could not escape. But to save face, i applied waki-gatamae on him for to force a submission.

It was very fun to play with judo boyz. The fact is, I know that I got him perfectly with Shomen-ate and gedan-ate because he has not seen this technique before. I was floored by his judo technique simply I was not used to these techniques and was caught off guard, like him as well.

In the end, I think it was of mutual benefit, as I learned a little bit more about the way of judo, and he, a little bit more of the way of Aikido.

Winning and losing are not absolute, only as transient events in ones life.

Ossu!

James Smithe
01-25-2006, 11:13 PM
No Biggie!!! If you are truly sincere in reaching your full potential in this style of Aikido start showing Tomiki Sensei some respect. Junana no hon Kata is a work of genious, it is limitless in variation and application I'm a NiDan and feel that ive only just begun learning it, my sensei has been doing it for fourty years and its still opening up to her. You have been disagreeing with what myself and other Dan grades have been saying about the Aikido/Judo relationship, we haven't been making it up, it is what Tomiki Sensei's works teach us. Ettiquette is the secret to success in the Japanese martial arts please try to use it to the best of your knowledge at all times. It was very poor thinking and a lack of respect saying you could Shomen ate a Judoka's but when frankly at your level you couldnt shomen ate your way out of a wet paper bag and I doubt if your break falling is at a level you could withstand a Judo throw at high speed. Any way train hard learn from your Sempais and Sensei's, read what you can of Tomiki Sensei and always begin with ettiquette and end with ettiquette and God willing you will come to know the wonderful art that is Tomiki Aikido.

1. Kenji Tomiki gets my utmost respect. He did alot to improve to Aikido I won't mention what because the Aikkikai guys will get pissed and say it's destroying it or something.
2. You're pretty sure of yourself for a nidan. Just because you're stronger than those around you doesn't make you strong. Forty years doesn't really mean jack. I know a guy in Judo who's been doing it for 40 years and he's 4th dan. I know another guy who's been doing it the same time and he is 7th dan.
3. So you think you're a dan grade and you're all that. You're not. Read 2.
4. I will not use ettiquete on the internet. The internet is about talking crap and being rude to people. For example I refuse to use the word Sensei myself online.
5. Exactly after I said I would shomen-ate a Judo guy I said I was just talking trash. Look it over to check.
6. By the time I go up against a Judo guy I will be so smooth he won't even throw me.
7. I read a little about Kenji Tomiki. What I remember is that Ueshiba's who is 4 foot 9 threw Tomiki's Judo butt easily and he became his disciple.
8. God? I will shomen-ate his butt too. Now you can put this in the humor section.

James Smithe
01-25-2006, 11:16 PM
That story is pretty funny. Xu. But I can't tell if you are a guy or a girl.

James Smithe
01-25-2006, 11:31 PM
I think its a mistake however to underestimate any person, regardless of the art they practice.

Just my 2 cents.

LC:ai::ki:

What if someone says they can beat you up using Tae Bo?

aikidodragon
01-26-2006, 12:06 AM
James my challenge still stands, and will continue to do so for any time you feel that you are able and skilled to take it. And never estamate any thing, wheather a "real" martial art or some off shoot, or combination of arts. You can talk trash all you want and not show respect, but be prepared to put your money where your mouth is.

aikidodragon
01-26-2006, 12:10 AM
As to time in rank, i have been in judo for about 4-5 years and only have a blue belt. However; I know more of the history, teaching methods, written more papers on judo, ect then most of the black belts in my first judo school. So watch for those who have been in the art for ever but aren't high ranked, they still know more then you, and depending maybe more then the one who out ranks them.

James Smithe
01-26-2006, 12:32 AM
James my challenge still stands, and will continue to do so for any time you feel that you are able and skilled to take it. And never estamate any thing, wheather a "real" martial art or some off shoot, or combination of arts. You can talk trash all you want and not show respect, but be prepared to put your money where your mouth is.

Do you know what Tae Bo is? What challenge?

xuzen
01-26-2006, 12:49 AM
What challenge?

James,

Sara challenge you to shomen-ushi her head. After she is done with you, you can GRAB MY WRIST (TM). :D

James Smithe
01-26-2006, 12:58 AM
I have no idea how to do a Shomen-ushi. However I could try shomen-ate but they live in Arkansas. I don't know the wrist techniques yet.

batemanb
01-26-2006, 02:13 AM
I will not use ettiquete on the internet. The internet is about talking crap and being rude to people. For example I refuse to use the word Sensei myself online.

Not on this forum it's not. If you learn anything about Aikido, you will know that it begins and ends with respect, whether that be in a dojo, or on an internet forum.

I read a little about Kenji Tomiki. What I remember is that Ueshiba's who is 4 foot 9 threw Tomiki's Judo butt easily and he became his disciple.

I don't think that's quite true, best check your facts again.

kind regards
Bryan

IlyasDexter
01-26-2006, 05:32 AM
I will not use ettiquete on the internet. The internet is about talking crap and being rude to people. For example I refuse to use the word Sensei myself online.


There is a saying "He who doesn't know he doesn't know is a fool, shun him."

aikidodragon
01-26-2006, 08:28 AM
Shomin uchi is a strike to the top of the head, ether withe your hand or a sord. Shomin ate will seut me just fine also. I just hope your timing is extremely good, and that you are able to brake my balemce. However, i dout that you will be able to, so be prepared to become wonderful friends with the tatami. And the not knowing the rist grabing techniques thats a personal problem. I know several, both from the Aikikai and Shodokan styles. No matter what, just remember, if I can tuch you, I can throw you.

Nick Simpson
01-26-2006, 08:45 AM
This is funny. James, maybe you should read over your posts before you hit the post button? No offence man, but you make a lot of wild points seemingly based on little knowledge. Also, the internet is a law unto itself, but if you want to be taken credibly on here then some rudimentary manners would go a long way...

akiy
01-26-2006, 09:44 AM
4. I will not use ettiquete on the internet. The internet is about talking crap and being rude to people.
If you truly do believe this, then please find a different venue than the AikiWeb Forums for sharing your thoughts. The first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forum members with respect."

-- Jun

L. Camejo
01-26-2006, 11:46 AM
Jun beat me to it. All web fora have rules that one must adhere to, else get evicted.

Maybe we're being mistaken for Bullshido.com.:p

Btw James, Tae Bo is not a martial art, but to underestimate someone who practices it with a martial intent alongside real Tae Kwon Do would be a mistake.

Remember, arrogance is self-inflicted kuzushi.:D

LC:ai::ki:

Bronson
01-26-2006, 01:56 PM
I will not use ettiquete on the internet. The internet is about talking crap and being rude to people.

It is the responsibility of the individual to conform to the traditions and customs of the group, or (s)he will be ostracized by the group.

I believe the saying goes something like: The nail that sticks up gets hammered back down.

Bronson

L. Camejo
01-26-2006, 04:00 PM
The nail that sticks up gets hammered back down.
:D

Bronson you sound more and more like a Shodothug every day.:)

LC:ai::ki:

Nick Simpson
01-26-2006, 05:49 PM
Lame. You sir, have nothing to say and you say it too often.

James Smithe
01-26-2006, 05:53 PM
Peter I call upon your expert advice and ask if I am wrong about my Kenji Tomiki story. I'm pretty sure Bryan's wrong about this though. Also stop laughing in front of your keyboard this is a serious discu hahhah sion.

L. Camejo
01-26-2006, 07:10 PM
Nice pics.

I wouldn't underestimate those girls. In fact I KNOW they could beat up on me anytime they want, especially if there is floor grappling involved.;):p

Of course if one thinks that the average martial artist knows anything about fighting, well - I think some lessons are best learnt from experience.

I see you're from Texas, do you really train in Shodokan or a Karl Geis flavour of what Tomiki developed? I know Geis is big in the Texas area.

PeterR
01-26-2006, 08:09 PM
Bryan is right James - on both points.

Tomiki and his brother were introduced to Ueshiba by their friend Nishimura. They were fascinated by the technique and obviously impressed by the man. Tomiki at the time was 24 years old, strong, confident and critical. Ueshiba about 41 was in his physical prime as a martial artist - quite impressive judging by pictures from around that time. There was no need for a fight for each to know the others abilities.

James Smithe
01-26-2006, 11:24 PM
Wtf? I never said I was Shodokan. Don't get me started on Karl Geis. His system to say the least is screwy. I'm with Chuck Clark's group. However I plan on going to New York one day and competiting.
I disagree with the first point. Second point. I really don't think I made that up in my mind. I must have read that somewhere.

Chuck Clark
01-26-2006, 11:54 PM
James, I don't remember you from my visits to the Dallas dojo. I must say that from what I've seen of your attitudes on this forum, I don't think that you're picking up much of our Jiyushinkai training.

James Smithe
01-26-2006, 11:57 PM
I keep telling you guys that this is the internet I do not act the same way in real life. At least I hope I don't.

L. Camejo
01-27-2006, 12:15 AM
Hi Chuck,

Does Jiyushinkai have organized competitions? I'd like to check out that one in NY if I'm in the country at the time.

LC:ai::ki:

Chuck Clark
01-27-2006, 12:21 AM
James, are you telling us that it's not "real life" where ever you're at when you're typing your messages?

I personally have no desire to have discussions of any kind, in real life, or as you say, on the internet with someone that doesn't back up everything he/she says with their own personal honor, integrity, and responsibility. This is a budo discussion site. Budo begins and ends with respect. I suspect that you've shown us your real heart (in real life...).

Chuck Clark
01-27-2006, 12:25 AM
Larry, Jiyushinkai does not have sport shiai. We have very vigorous and competitive (in the true sense of the word) training but no kyogi activities of any kind. We also have no dojo located in New York. My dojo, the Jiyushinkan, is located in Tempe, Arizona. You're welcome any time to visit and train with us.

James Smithe
01-27-2006, 12:31 AM
My real heart? That would only happened on the internet if it was a email or something to a real life friend. However I have noticed that martial arts sites are more personal.

Chuck Clark
01-27-2006, 12:32 AM
Everyone,

I have just seen James Smith's post in the Techniques forum here... This person is not a member of Jiyushinkai and I am astounded by his attitudes and behavior. It is totally unacceptable to me and our membership.

L. Camejo
01-27-2006, 12:36 AM
Thanks for the info and the offer Chuck. Believe me, if I can ever make it to that side of the country I'll definitely pay you a visit.

Thanks for correcting James' faulty info as well for me. I was pretty sure that your group did not engage in shiai, even though you have your own resistance-based training methods from what I understand at least.

Domo Arigato.

LC:ai::ki:

James Smithe
01-27-2006, 12:44 AM
Chuck Clark you are the head of the Jiyushinkai. So you should not get upset if one of your members or supposed members posts stuff on the internet. Okay I am with the Jiyushinkai or pretending to be. The Jiyushinkai doesn't have competitions so that means that I would have to go to a Shodokan tournament in New York.

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 01:30 AM
well since this seems to be the time and place... James, I'll show you mine if you'll show me your's... I am 41 years old and I train or have trained in a variety of MA including; karate, judo, GJJ, Modern Arnis, Kung Fu and wrestling since about 1980... i hold mostly kyu ranks, but have a dan ranking in Aikido... What about you???

James Smithe
01-27-2006, 01:35 AM
19 years old studied Karate when i was 11. It was bull to me so I quit after a month. Just started Aikido I mentioned my crappiness in Aikido earlier in the thread.

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 01:49 AM
so basically you know jack??? Do you train at a dojo or club or just read books and forums? Good instruction is light years ahead of any thing you can garner from a book... I started with Yoshinkan Style when I was stationed in Japan in the navy in about 1988... try to understand that there are many different takes on the practice and philosophy of aikido and even within the same organization there may be various "sub-styles" as some people are more martial, and some more spiritual... as a younger person I suggest you would perhaps be more disposed toward a more physical, robust, "street" oriented practice... save the philosophy for us old timers...

James Smithe
01-27-2006, 01:54 AM
Yeah I don't know much. My teacher at my dojo is more into the martial. The only time I heard him mention Ki was a joke about something. Philosophy? I have to look over my posts to find out what you mean.

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 02:19 AM
well as you have been talking about Tomiki, shodokan, aikikai, judo and such i feel this falls in the philosophical realm... be careful trying to shomen ate a good judoka or you may end up in one of my favorites Kata ha jime... you're basically asking for it from shomen ate... ippon seio nage was what that one lady was saying and thats a good one too... from my perspective judo and aikido are really much the same in principle and a good blending/reconciliation of the two is Very hard to beat... as you train more you will learn that even an old bald guy who doesn't look like much will put your lights out... Never underestimate anyone... or you may get surprised... sorry just a little philosophy...

PeterR
01-27-2006, 02:29 AM
well as you have been talking about Tomiki, shodokan, aikikai, judo and such i feel this falls in the philosophical realm... be careful trying to shomen ate a good judoka or you may end up in one of my favorites Kata ha jime... you're basically asking for it from shomen ate... ippon seio nage was what that one lady was saying and thats a good one too... from my perspective judo and aikido are really much the same in principle and a good blending/reconciliation of the two is Very hard to beat... as you train more you will learn that even an old bald guy who doesn't look like much will put your lights out... Never underestimate anyone... or you may get surprised... sorry just a little philosophy...
Hi Edwin;

The first counter we teach as part of the Shodokan syllabus is to Shomen-ate and yup its like you describe. We call it wakegatame however. The only defense against the counter is to make sure your initial kuzushi is complete and penetrating. Of course we have a counter to the counter but I'll keep that a trade secret. :p

James Smithe
01-27-2006, 02:32 AM
What I know the counter counter it it's G....... nevermind.

Edwin Neal
01-27-2006, 02:34 AM
forget the counter counter you should learn the counter counter counter... ad infinitum... lol

Nick Simpson
01-27-2006, 06:32 AM
Pwned.

IlyasDexter
01-27-2006, 09:05 AM
Chuck Clark you are the head of the Jiyushinkai. So you should not get upset if one of your members or supposed members posts stuff on the internet. Okay I am with the Jiyushinkai or pretending to be. The Jiyushinkai doesn't have competitions so that means that I would have to go to a Shodokan tournament in New York.

Sensei Chuck has every right to be upset because of lack of respect. Many others here have also stated their digust at your behaviour and especially for those of us from various schools founded on Tomiki Sensei teachings because whatever differences we have in our practice we all share the deepest respect and love for Tomiki Sensei just ask anyone who actually met him and they will tell you that above all he was a gentlemens gentlemen and you behaviour brings shame to us and our dear Sensei Tomiki.

Ron Tisdale
01-27-2006, 10:05 AM
I keep telling you guys that this is the internet I do not act the same way in real life. At least I hope I don't.

There was another poster once who made a big deal about how he was different on the net and in person. My question...why would anyone *choose* to be schizophrenic? He had no choice to be different in person...he couldn't back up what he said on the net in person.

I would never speak to the leader of the style I practice in the manner that you just did. It would probably earn me some really tough ukemi. Deservedly so. I hope you adjust your manner before it comes to that...

Best,
Ron (I'm sorry you have this twit to deal with, Chuck)

Chuck Clark
01-27-2006, 10:35 AM
HI Ron,

Since James Smith isn't a member of Jiyushinkai and the dojocho in Texas doesn't know him, I really don't have to deal with him except as we all do as members of aikiweb. They come and go; it's the nature of this form of communication.

Best regards,

happysod
01-27-2006, 10:42 AM
So, if attacked with a piece of cake (say a Victoria sponge rather than a rock cake) how would a Jiyushinkai deal with it differently to a shodothug? (I'm assuming the subject of James has been sufficiently dealt with...)

Ron Tisdale
01-27-2006, 10:47 AM
Understood...

Best,
Ron

Chuck Clark
01-27-2006, 10:52 AM
Ian,

I'm a bit thick this morning (seems more than usual...) but I don't understand. :straightf

Cheers,

happysod
01-27-2006, 11:45 AM
Chuck,

Just thought I'd try to divert this thread from getting any more about personalities than it already was - sorry for the confusion and the bad monty Python paraphrase

Ian

Chuck Clark
01-27-2006, 12:26 PM
Ian,

I do get the reference now that you mentioned it... I'm surely a Monty Python fan, just dense this morning.

I do think this is not about "personalities" though. I think it's about behavior. There are places on the www where anything goes. AikiWeb isn't one of them. Jun provides this site and puts in way more time than most any of us would do and he gets to set the rules... and has done so.

Members of Jiyushinkai have a reputation that is well-earned and this young man doesn't meet the standards with this sort of behavior. Part of my job is to keep our house clean, both inside and outside.

Regards,

aikidodragon
01-27-2006, 12:44 PM
monty pythan please feel to correct my spelling.
have you seen the self defence skit about the frui. t

aikidodragon
01-27-2006, 01:03 PM
I wish i could see what i type, it sounds correct when my computer reads what i type back. but I post it and it does not sound correct. Got to love technology.
any way
I was trying to say have you seen the self defence skit? The one with the fresh fruit. That was our favorite skit during high school, and is the still the running joke of the film class, man we messed that skit up bad.

Lan Powers
01-28-2006, 12:00 AM
NEEK

Regards,
Lan

Matt Molloy
01-28-2006, 12:37 PM
So, if attacked with a piece of cake (say a Victoria sponge rather than a rock cake) how would a Jiyushinkai deal with it differently to a shodothug? (I'm assuming the subject of James has been sufficiently dealt with...)

*Welsh Accent* What if he had a pointy stick? *Welsh Accent

:D

Matt.

aikidodragon
01-28-2006, 01:20 PM
to day we are going to learn how to defend ourselves against fresh fruit.
And pointy sticks.
SHUTUP!!!

Edwin Neal
01-28-2006, 01:33 PM
i don't mind when the fruit gets fresh, but those pointy sticks you gotta watch out for...

Lan Powers
01-28-2006, 03:11 PM
There's a dead bishop on the landing....