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justin
01-07-2006, 03:44 AM
still new to this aikido world and some of the pins we do are very painful a lot of the senior grades seem to take them without showing any signs of pain well no where near as much as i do, i got to wondering do you become more supple or just used to the level of pain. and out of curiosity which is the most painful pin I myself find everything my sensei does very painful. !!!

:)

sullivanw
01-07-2006, 09:56 AM
You do get more supple and used to the pain over time. A lot of what I have been working on is relaxing and accepting the pin. The more psychological resistance that I have, like, "ouch that's going to hurt!", the more the pins hurt!

batemanb
01-07-2006, 02:34 PM
Which ones more pinful? Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo and Rokyo all bloody hurt if you ask me. After nearly 14 years they still hurt as much as they did on day one. I think the difference is that you become a little more conditioned to the pain, it don't go away or get any better though.

regards

Bryan

justin
01-07-2006, 03:06 PM
thank you people i shall try and blend more with the pin instead of trying to pull away from it.

Mats Alritzson
01-07-2006, 03:24 PM
See it as a stretching exercise. Breath out and relax when you get pinned.

GreenLizzard
01-07-2006, 05:12 PM
pins hardly ever hurt anymore

kokyu
01-07-2006, 09:09 PM
Which ones more pinful? Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo and Rokyo all bloody hurt if you ask me.

I guess it depends on tori as well... some toris seem to be more 'skillful' at some techniques than others.

I have to agree with Bryan that they all hurt, but in terms of longer-lasting injury, my arms tend to recover more slowly from sankyo and rokkyo - sometimes my elbows hurt for weeks... it gets inconvenient when I have to lift something heavy and a pain shoots up the elbows... Come to think of it, I'm wondering why my elbows are 'weaker'... perhaps it's because ever since I started Aikido, the warm-up exercises tended to focus on the wrist rather than the elbow?

What do you think?

eyrie
01-07-2006, 09:50 PM
Hmmm.... I think the osae waza in aikido is meant to apply immobilization control using ai-ki rather than pain compliance. Interestingly, many senior jujitsu practitioners I've spoken to and trained with whilst, on the one hand do teach pain compliance, seem to prefer (structural) immobilization for various reasons, particularly LEO applications.

jgros
01-07-2006, 11:44 PM
I thought I would contribute a slightly different perspective since no one brought it up.

I am currently of the opinion that receiving a pin is as much a part of ukemi as is receiving kotegaeshi, ikkyo or nodotsuki (sp?). I believe there are more correct ways to receive these pins, just as there are more correct ways to receive techniques.

If you are getting hurt during your ukemi, I would take special care to watch what your seniors do when they are in the same position. If possible, ask if you can practice ukemi on this particular technique you are having issues with. Of course many techniques hurt during the application, but if you still feel pain after the nage lets off the pressure, I have a feeling the ukemi may need some work (assuming your partner isn't malicious evileyes ). Every one of my Aikido related injuries I have ever experienced (and unfortunately I still experience them regularly) are related to my improper ukemi.

As for pain in the elbows, I can see how hijishime/hiji-otoshi can cause pain in the elbows. In fact, that was one of my aforementioned recent injuries. Direct contact to the elbow doesn't give much leeway for ukemi does it? :dead:
As for sankyo, I am more likely to get injured from the possible cut down after sankyo (which can cause whiplash if you are careless in ukemi) than the sankyo itself. If sankyo hurts your elbows, my advice is to move quick! :p Gambatte!

Jeff

MaryKaye
01-08-2006, 12:58 AM
We are taught, when you expect to receive a standing pin be on your toes and light, ready to move! If you don't move immediately when the pin bites, nage may think it's not working and try harder, and you don't want that.

I think yonkyo hurts the worst. I was demo uke once for a junior instructor who said offhandedly, "And you could also get yonkyo from this entry, like so--" and I swore like a fishwife at him! It just came out.... He didn't say anything about this massive breach of dojo etiquette so I guess he knew why it happened.

I had to prepare yonkyo for my third kyu tests and did a solid hour of it with a fifth kyu and a third kyu training partner. (Thanks, guys. That was above and beyond the call of duty.) Next day, I had a huge brown handprint on each arm from the fifth kyu's big hands. But, oddly, that didn't hurt. I also had two tiny, almost invisible blue spots from the third kyu's corect yonkyo, and those hurt a lot!

Mary Kaye

Josh Reyer
01-08-2006, 01:02 AM
Come to think of it, I'm wondering why my elbows are 'weaker'... perhaps it's because ever since I started Aikido, the warm-up exercises tended to focus on the wrist rather than the elbow?

What do you think?

Well, I can see how the nikyo, sankyo, and kotegaeshi warm-ups may look like they are just about the wrist, but I do believe the stretch can (and should) go down to the elbows, too. At least, with kotegaeshi, you can do it so it stretches the wrist, but if you keep your wrist straight and do the same stretch, you can feel it in your elbow.

Mike Sigman
01-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Well, I can see how the nikyo, sankyo, and kotegaeshi warm-ups may look like they are just about the wrist, but I do believe the stretch can (and should) go down to the elbows, too. At least, with kotegaeshi, you can do it so it stretches the wrist, but if you keep your wrist straight and do the same stretch, you can feel it in your elbow.Good point, but I think that nikyo and sankyo stretches should go to the lower back (L3) and Kotegaeshi should go to the belly just below the navel. ;^)

FWIW

Mike

Mark Mueller
01-08-2006, 08:45 AM
There you go again Mike...messin with everyone's thought patterns! ;) ;)

Have you given any more thought to doing a seminar or two regarding earlier discussions?

Mark

Mike Sigman
01-08-2006, 09:09 AM
There you go again Mike...messin with everyone's thought patterns! ;) ;)

Have you given any more thought to doing a seminar or two regarding earlier discussions?Hi Mark:

I've had Aikido people at various workshops over the years, but generally the workshops focus on these general concepts of "ki" and "kokyu" and then go into power releases or assorted applications of other arts to keep the testosterone-driven more interested. ;)

I've tried a few Aikido-only workshops and I'm never totally happy with the outcome. So I'm ambivalent at the moment and the original offer I made only got a total of about 13 interested people. I sort of forgot about it, to be honest. Besides, I only do workshops as a hobby and I tend to be sparing about taking time away from home to do them. ;)

Maybe sometime. In the meantime, the discussions give me new insights, motivate me to think, and allow me to chip in occasionally. I.e., I'm happy enough being stimulated by the various Chinese and Japanese martial arts forums without having to cudgel my wits and come up with an ideal Aikido-only workshop.

All the Best.

Mike

raul rodrigo
01-08-2006, 03:38 PM
For me the least painful is yonkyo, if only because my wrists seem to be yonkyo resistant. In ten years only two people have really been able to make me tap out of pain from the nerve pressure, my sensei and his Japanese teacher. Its more fruitful for nage to try for the arm break (our shihan during yonkyo: "Ahh, he feels no pain? Okay, we break the arm instead.") Several of the people in my dojo have this ability to resist yonkyo. So pain compliance through yonkyo is not something we stress. As long as the pin is structurally correct, and therefore cannot be broken, then we're doing all right.

Josh Reyer
01-08-2006, 11:48 PM
Good point, but I think that nikyo and sankyo stretches should go to the lower back (L3) and Kotegaeshi should go to the belly just below the navel. ;^)

FWIW

Mike

I knew that! But since I haven't yet figured out to make the stretch go all the way to the lower back, I figure it would be best to only speak to what I knew for sure.

Still trying, though!

Mike Sigman
01-09-2006, 12:07 AM
I knew that! But since I haven't yet figured out to make the stretch go all the way to the lower back, How about extending the let's say lightly-applied sankyo and the applying hand far enough out in front of the chest (for starters, to give you a feel for it) so that you can notice that there is a very slight stretch/tension of the skin/muscles along the arm to the back. Inhale while pulling the stomach slightly in while slumping/relaxing the torso a little... try to let the lower back accept the twist being applied to the wrist.

You can't control the hands and wrists with the "center" of the body unless there is a real and functional connection from the center to the wrist/hand. This is a good way to start developing, at least for the yin qi.

Regards and FWIW,

Mike

roosvelt
01-09-2006, 08:26 AM
As a beginner myself, don't know exactly where you should feel the pain (strech). I believe Mike is more right than most posters.

Reading "Total Aikido", there is a page about controlling your opponent's knee PHYSICALLY by controlling his wrist. It's more in line with what Mike said.

A lot of nage don't know how to apply the pin correctly. As a uke, you have to move to correct configuration and position to receive the pin. As most people said, relax and try to "feel" the pain with your centre. If you feel the pain stop somewhere, say elbow, if mean you're too stiff in the elbow area. The stiffness could be physically, or mentally. Due to my inflexible shoulder, I tend to feel the pain (block point) around my shoulder area. Most people's elbow should be flexible enough for the pins, you can relax more and move your elbow angle > 90 degree.

If you can feel the pain path, by using the same path, you can apply "ki" easily. I have trouble feeling the pain path go through shoulder to my back. Accordingly, I have trouble connect my up arm to my body via shoulder. (this paragraph is my sepculation. I have nothing to back it up)

Practice this in class is more a waste of time, most people in my club have no idea what they're doing. They have no intention to control my center. They just enjoy applying more pains by sharp angle and speed. I doubt my instructor knows either. Because in the warm up pin excercise, he counted so fast. I can only do 1 pin in 4 count.

ian
01-09-2006, 08:34 AM
Pins don't have to be painful unless they are whacked on full speed or incorrectly. Ideally a pin is painful to struggle against but not to go with (in reality, if someone with no experience feels pain they don't have a clue where to move or go to; and often they feel no pain at all due to adrenalin).

Although you get a bit more supple, I don't think my joints are stronger - I tend to be better at feeling when and where the pain is coming from and directing my body to avoid the pain!

To me yonkyo is the most painful since it is the most difficult for nage to realise how much pain is being delivered and thus it can often be extremely sudden like an electric shock. Techniques like sankyo and nikkyo can be done extremely gradually and with alot of sensetivity.

Practically, pins may look great but a non-aikido person can respond like wiggling spaghetti! Control of uke with the pin is far more important and something which just comes by feeling what happens to uke when you do it in various ways and responding to uke trying to escape (without damaging them!)

Josh Reyer
01-09-2006, 09:45 AM
How about extending the let's say lightly-applied sankyo and the applying hand far enough out in front of the chest (for starters, to give you a feel for it) so that you can notice that there is a very slight stretch/tension of the skin/muscles along the arm to the back. Inhale while pulling the stomach slightly in while slumping/relaxing the torso a little... try to let the lower back accept the twist being applied to the wrist.

You can't control the hands and wrists with the "center" of the body unless there is a real and functional connection from the center to the wrist/hand. This is a good way to start developing, at least for the yin qi.

Regards and FWIW,

Mike

Hmmmmm.... I can't say for sure if I was feeling the stretch or if my back was just stiff from sitting in the chair for so long, but I think I got the idea. Definitely felt it past the shoulder.

Thanks!

kokyu
01-09-2006, 09:59 PM
So pain compliance through yonkyo is not something we stress. As long as the pin is structurally correct, and therefore cannot be broken, then we're doing all right.

I've experienced some very painful yonkyo, and some have left bruises that lasted a week... but this is nothing compared to the month-long injuries from rokkyo, which are then made worse by a strong sankyo...

I agree with Raul that the pin is more important in yonkyo than the pain itself. I remember practicing with a relatively elderly person whose yonkyo didn't hurt at all, although his control was excellent. I thought he was doing it wrongly... but then I switched partners, and did yonkyo on a young fellow... he said that it hurt, but so what? I had no control over his center... his shoulder and elbow were quite loose, so I was swinging his arm around with no effect... Also, it's more difficult to cut the nerve on thick forearms/wrists, so it's more practical to focus on the pin rather than the pain.

odudog
01-10-2006, 03:23 PM
You wrists get more supple as you continue to do the pins but they also get used to the pain as well. Your seniors have an added advantage on you in the fact that they are more sensitive to feel when the pain is about to start to become excruciating. They will then start to move in the proper direction to lesson the pain. Novices tend to stay until the the excruciating feeling is felt before they move. A good example of this concept iriminage. One of my instructors does his iriminage directly at the throat. The first time I thought that it was an accident {cough, cough...}. By the third time I knew that is was by design {feel a migraine coming on}. Come the fourth time, I was moving backwards to get ahead of the arm and have been doing it ever since.

jester
01-10-2006, 04:34 PM
Pins don't have to be painful unless they are whacked on full speed or incorrectly. Ideally a pin is painful to struggle against but not to go with (in reality, if someone with no experience feels pain they don't have a clue where to move or go to; and often they feel no pain at all due to adrenalin).

Exactly!! ;)

eyrie
01-10-2006, 06:33 PM
Hmmm... I don't think so...

Ever tried jujitsu or chin-na?

Ketsan
01-10-2006, 07:40 PM
We're told not to show the pain, except obviously for the tap. As time goes on this gets easier and easier as your wrists get more supple. Don't tell your Sensei this though. :D

roosvelt
01-13-2006, 12:25 PM
Mike, I just can feel the tention up to the scapula in the sankyo. Where should the tention continue, along the spin or along the latissuimus dorsim? Is there any way that can help me feel the tention down?

Thanks.

Mike Sigman
01-13-2006, 12:37 PM
Roosvelt, try sort of slumping or something like that. There should be a meeting of the tension from the sankyo and from the hand doing the twisting in the lower lumbar vertebrae. Once you get that meeting of forces, focus on it and hold it for a little while. You want to develop that connection from the middle (both the back and the front of the torso, depending on the direction of twist), since that's what you need to "control the hands with the middle". A lot of people think "moving from the middle" is sort of a rhetorical thing... it means literally controlling the body and limbs with either outgoing or incoming kokyu forces.

;)

Mike

roosvelt
01-19-2006, 09:58 AM
Roosvelt, try sort of slumping or something like that. There should be a meeting of the tension from the sankyo and from the hand doing the twisting in the lower lumbar vertebrae. Once you get that meeting of forces, focus on it and hold it for a little while. You want to develop that connection from the middle (both the back and the front of the torso, depending on the direction of twist), since that's what you need to "control the hands with the middle". A lot of people think "moving from the middle" is sort of a rhetorical thing... it means literally controlling the body and limbs with either outgoing or incoming kokyu forces.

;)

Mike


Thanks, Mike.

It's hard to get there I guess. Now I try to slump and lower my shoulder more. I feel the scapula crush together and the tension/pain is a little unbearable. If I twist a little more, a little tention travel down, not much. I'm kind of freaked out by the pain. I want to ask you before I contrinue. Am i on the right path? Or should I try different configuration. I seems very hard to connect my shoulder to my middle. Is there any good excersice to get the right feeling of connection.

Thanks again.

MaryKaye
01-19-2006, 11:05 AM
I had a seventh dan do sankyo on me and stop in the standing-hold position. "Does it hurt?" "No, sensei." "Can you move?" I had the strong impression that I daren't move even my eyeballs or I would be in terrible pain. A very weird experience. It was like having large parts of my body strung on a wire which was at full tension, so that if he just plucked it everything would ring.

His advice for doing sankyo better was to have the shoulders very relaxed, and focus on the lower hand controlling the fingertips rather than the upper hand controlling the wrist.

I love sankyo very much because I can always find it, even from weird attacks. But I certainly can't approach that level of artistry in applying it.

Mary Kaye

roosvelt
01-19-2006, 11:41 AM
I had a seventh dan do sankyo on me and stop in the standing-hold position. "Does it hurt?" "No, sensei." "Can you move?" I had the strong impression that I daren't move even my eyeballs or I would be in terrible pain. A very weird experience. It was like having large parts of my body strung on a wire which was at full tension, so that if he just plucked it everything would ring.





Too bad, you didn't try to move. Otherwise, you could experiment with different body configuration to find the correct path so you could apply it yourslef.


His advice for doing sankyo better was to have the shoulders very relaxed, and focus on the lower hand controlling the fingertips rather than the upper hand controlling the wrist.



I can understand the shoulder relaxed part. I don't know what he meant by controlling the fingertips.

Ron Tisdale
01-19-2006, 02:17 PM
Sankyo as a two handed sword grip on one of uke's hands.

shite takes uke's right hand with left hand

shite's fingers control the blade of uke's hand, thumb and forefinger loosely encircle uke's wrist

off balance uke to their right, add atemi as desired while entering under the wrist (so as not to get choked when entering under close to uke's body/power.

Shite can xstep in body change, front pivot to apply

shuffle in, front pivot, front pivot to apply

shuffle in, front pivot, cross-step back, body change to apply

all kinds of things.

shite's free hand controls uke's fingers. The lock should be felt through all the joints from fingers through to uke's center.

Best,
Ron

eyrie
01-19-2006, 05:26 PM
It should be *controlling the center thru the fingertips*.

If you apply pressure to the pinky and bend it back a tad, you can apply some structural control thru pain compliance, but not necessarily control of center. The trick is to bring uke up on their toes. Actually, any number of fingers or thumb will work (those that do yubitori-waza will know what I'm talking about), but you must control uke's center, or end up with broken fingers if uke resists. ;)

Mike Sigman
01-22-2006, 06:25 PM
Thanks, Mike.

It's hard to get there I guess. Now I try to slump and lower my shoulder more. I feel the scapula crush together and the tension/pain is a little unbearable. If I twist a little more, a little tention travel down, not much. I'm kind of freaked out by the pain. I want to ask you before I contrinue. Am i on the right path? Or should I try different configuration. I seems very hard to connect my shoulder to my middle. Is there any good excersice to get the right feeling of connection. Wait... wait... I was talking about what to feel when you're doing the self-twist wrist exercise of sankyo. My bad. I was telling you how to start building it up, not how to resist it. ;)

Mike

roosvelt
01-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Wait... wait... I was talking about what to feel when you're doing the self-twist wrist exercise of sankyo. My bad. I was telling you how to start building it up, not how to resist it. ;)

Mike

Yes. I think that's what I've been trying to do: to have the correct "feel" when doing self-sankyo.

I can feel the "tension" up my forearm, tricept, scapula, along side of the spine, then I have trouble to get the tension down more. I wonder if you have ohter suggestions other than slump more.

Thanks.

Ron Tisdale
01-23-2006, 11:16 AM
My bad too...

RT

Mike Sigman
01-23-2006, 11:18 AM
Yes. I think that's what I've been trying to do: to have the correct "feel" when doing self-sankyo.

I can feel the "tension" up my forearm, tricept, scapula, along side of the spine, then I have trouble to get the tension down more. I wonder if you have ohter suggestions other than slump more. OK, if you can get it that far (to the scapula area), pay attention that the stress is in the surface muscles and skin connection to the L3 lumbar area. Work backward and try to grab the connection out to the wrist from the lower lumbar area. Try to "hold" the twist, just lightly at first, with the lower lumbar area. That's how you start building up the "ki" connection... very lightly... at first. You have to develop it over time.

Mike

roosvelt
01-23-2006, 12:58 PM
OK, if you can get it that far (to the scapula area), pay attention that the stress is in the surface muscles and skin connection to the L3 lumbar area. Work backward and try to grab the connection out to the wrist from the lower lumbar area.

Mike

Thanks, Mike,

Holding the position, if I lift both my hand over my head, (like Pressing the Heavens with Two Hands in Eight Section Brocade, with modification of one hand holding another in sankyo) can get the "tension" down to my L3 lumbar area easily. Then I lower my hand slowly back to front of my chest and hold the tension in my back.

Could you verify is the correct "path/connection"? Thanks.

roosvelt
01-23-2006, 03:55 PM
Thanks, Mike,

Holding the position, if I lift both my hand over my head, (like Pressing the Heavens with Two Hands in Eight Section Brocade, with modification of one hand holding another in sankyo) can get the "tension" down to my L3 lumbar area easily. Then I lower my hand slowly back to front of my chest and hold the tension in my back.

Could you verify is the correct "path/connection"? Thanks.


Mike, assuming I got the connection in Sankyo, what do I do with it? Is there any application that I can test if my connection is correct? In lifing the heaven (both hands pusing upward) and push the mountain (both pushing forward), tenchi-nage (one hand up and one hand down), should I maintain the tension?

Thanks.

Mike Sigman
01-23-2006, 09:57 PM
Hi Roosvelt:

I can't judge from written words if you are feeling exactly as I described. The point is to make a connection from you "center" to your hands. Just a light one at first and then keep working it until it gets stronger. You cannot get ki to the hands without working on it for a while. Notice that some twists will connect with the "center" through the back point (the mingmen around L3) and some twists will connect through the middle in the front. Correct movement in the "natural" microcosmic orbit is said to go from the middle at the back, out to the fingertips along the yang meridians and back to the middle in the front through the yin meridians. If you analyse the flow of movements, it is easy to see that this is indeed true for movements (i.e., the yang movements). It's not just some made-up ritual but is a way of analysing and describing what actually happens to the flow of strength through the body.

FWIW

Mike

Johan Nielsen
01-25-2006, 04:11 AM
From my experience some beginners and some guys seem to believe that it is macho to endure pain. And sometimes beginners are reluctant to give them selves away as aikido noobs, thus they want to endure the pain. And some older students think that beginners learn better and faster the more pain they inflict during a pin. Of course, you get a good strech and endure more pain in the future. However, everybody is not as flexible, and people should feel that they can tap early or say that the other student is hurting them. It's not necessary to hurt each other in order to learn the pins. The pain tells us when we have reached the limits for a twist of an arm, for example. Tap already when you feel that a pin is going to hurt, not when it is hurting a lot.

Alec Corper
01-25-2006, 04:33 AM
Several points have already been made that are vital. If your body is not integrated then, your legs are held down even when your centre is attacked. Or as I would say to students, "stop standing there like a sack of concrete". Since all pins have as a purpose moving the whole body by closing the links of the chain until the centre is reached, if you feel too much pain on the joint only, it is either because tori does not understand the purpose of the joint lock and is misdirecting your body, or because the speed of technique is greater than ukes ability to respond, due to either physical or mental inflexibility. Some pain is inevitable but continuous pain or injury is a sign of wrong practise.
I once heard Suganuma Sensei ask 2 yudansha busily showing how they could withstand nikkyo, "do you want to get smarter or tougher?" Standing still in front of someone when a pin is applied means someone is doing something odd, pain must follow. BTW if you can stand still when a pin is applied then tori is in perfect position to receive atemi which i suppose could be an argument for getting tougher, but I still think that receiving the pin is the best approach to the next step which is kaeshi waza.
regards, Alec