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Mato-san
01-05-2006, 06:41 AM
Ok, I am quiet new here and have been dabbling in posts.
From what I see there are people here who, wait I will Form categories.
1.People who respect the "way" as a budo perspective and adore its deep meanings.
2.People who respect the bushido aspect.
3.Cross trainers who respect both aspects. And wish to deepen their martial instincts and progress not only as warriors but as people.
4.People that wish to be harder and faster and better than the next.
5.And the people that love flowery language,zen riddles and also pulling apart posts to construct a political debate for the aikido world to feast on.
That last category does never apply to voices of expeirence. And George I love your stuff, I love Saotome, and respect. When it is due. I especially love the dynamics of aikido artisticly displayed "On canvas" by Saotome, better than cheap words.
Now Being said, and respect for all categories, which category do you fall under? There is a category that is exclusive of course just to me the category being "I just LOVE aikido" Now I do expect some bites but lets get real! Were are we here, I have seen disrespect posted toward Japanese culture, people not understanding that battles over land and other assets do not exsist in modern day Japan. Not True. Although less brutal.

Mato-san
01-05-2006, 06:51 AM
Not only which, but why? And lets be real, everyone has their own reasons and insentives lets display them here!

Misogi-no-Gyo
01-05-2006, 06:57 AM
Knock, Knock...

Who's there?

Ding Dong...

Ding Dong who?

.

..

...

....

exactly.



.

bkedelen
01-05-2006, 11:22 AM
I fall under the "Is f'ing sick of categorization" category.

Don_Modesto
01-05-2006, 11:45 AM
Ok, I am quiet new here and have been dabbling in posts.
From what I see there are people here who, wait I will Form categories.
1.People who respect the "way" as a budo perspective and adore its deep meanings.
2.People who respect the bushido aspect.
3.Cross trainers who respect both aspects. And wish to deepen their martial instincts and progress not only as warriors but as people.
4.People that wish to be harder and faster and better than the next.
5.And the people that love flowery language,zen riddles and also pulling apart posts to construct a political debate for the aikido world to feast on.
That last category does never apply to voices of expeirence. And George I love your stuff, I love Saotome, and respect. When it is due. I especially love the dynamics of aikido artisticly displayed "On canvas" by Saotome, better than cheap words.
Now Being said, and respect for all categories, which category do you fall under? There is a category that is exclusive of course just to me the category being "I just LOVE aikido" Now I do expect some bites but lets get real! Were are we here, I have seen disrespect posted toward Japanese culture, people not understanding that battles over land and other assets do not exsist in modern day Japan. Not True. Although less brutal.

Hi.

Is English your first language?

Thanks.

George S. Ledyard
01-05-2006, 05:46 PM
Knock, Knock...

Who's there?

Ding Dong...

Ding Dong who?

.

..

...

....

exactly.



.
Shaun,
You crack me up, I must say...
Happy New Year!
- George

Mato-san
01-05-2006, 08:49 PM
Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!

George S. Ledyard
01-05-2006, 10:14 PM
Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!
Mathew,
Ok, so people were a bit harsh... I certainly apologize for any offense I gave. I do have to say that after reading your post a few times, I still wasn't clear about what you were saying in various parts... I think that's the source of Don's question about whether English is your first language...

People on this forum are generally fairly polite, especially when compared to other places one might hang on the internet, but you have to think clearly about what you want to say or ask because there are quite a few folks who have been around for a number of years and once in a while are less patient than we all ought to be. I wouldn't take it too seriously, though. But if you leave yourself open for some teasing, you'll probably get it... that would be true anyplace I think.Anyway, Aikido is a martial art and it's best not to have too thin a skin, so to speak.

I'd be happy to contribute my own answer to your question if I understood it better. Feel free to explain if you want...
- George

Josh Reyer
01-06-2006, 05:39 AM
Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!

Ukemi is part of aikido, too. FWIW.

roosvelt
01-06-2006, 08:28 AM
2.People who respect the bushido aspect.



Like most people, I didn't get your idea.

But I don't give a rat about "bushido" after seeing the film about Ni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

Take a look at the pictures, and tell me what is "budo".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3ASlayers.jpg

(WARNING, disturbing picture. Not for minors and faint of heart)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3AKillednanjing.jpg

I train Aikido because I can't find any other interesting activities in my area..

Josh Reyer
01-06-2006, 11:43 AM
Like most people, I didn't get your idea.

But I don't give a rat about "bushido" after seeing the film about Ni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

Take a look at the pictures, and tell me what is "budo".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3ASlayers.jpg

(WARNING, disturbing picture. Not for minors and faint of heart)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3AKillednanjing.jpg

I train Aikido because I can't find any other interesting activities in my area..

Not that Hagakure isn't full of crap, but blaming bushido for Nanjing is like blaming democracy for My Lai.

roosvelt
01-06-2006, 12:04 PM
Not that Hagakure isn't full of crap, but blaming bushido for Nanjing is like blaming democracy for My Lai.

No. Ididn't blame "bushido" for Rape of Nanjing.

Is that wrong to blame "nazism" for holocaust?

The fact was that "bushido" was promoted in the Japanese army in the WWII. The killing was done by those Japanese. You could argue the wrong type of "bushido" was misinterpreted in that period in Japan.

However, my point was I believed O'Sensei was more of a Japanese version of Buddhasm than bushidosm.

bkedelen
01-06-2006, 12:26 PM
Roosvelt, Nazism did not cause the holocaust, people did. Ideas are just ideas, they have benefits and drawbacks. It is a cop-out for someone to blame his actions on some philosophy, be it political, societal, or religious.
In addition you are dead wrong about Osensei's views on bushido. Osensei was a close personal friend of the very people who used bushido to influence young Japanese people to join the military during WWII. Osensei was at least associated with multiple members of a Japanese secret society whose goal was to use bushido to re-glorify the samurai families by creating a class-oriented military hierarchy as the first step to returing to a pre-meiji social structure.

early rub up
01-06-2006, 12:49 PM
Nice Job of embracing and harmonizing with the noob guys. I guess it`s that attitude that drives away the people that are here to discuss aikido and their passion for it, and lets the remaining dual it out in a battle of wits, or my belts blacker than yours type debate. Dont worry I wont be back, if I want to an association with clowns, I will join the circus. Nice work!
when it comes to a battle of wits i refuse to fight with an unarmed man :p

roosvelt
01-06-2006, 12:52 PM
Roosvelt, Nazism did not cause the holocaust, people did. Ideas are just ideas, they have benefits and drawbacks. It is a cop-out for someone to blame his actions on some philosophy, be it political, societal, or religious.


I know that. So there is no difference if you send your kids to a Christan church, a KKK campus, a communist party, a buddha temple, a islam fighter cell, or a strip join every sunday morning? Ideas just ideas, right?

There is good idea and bad idea and evil idea. Good ideas don't generate good deed always. But evil ideas for sure generate less good deeds.


In addition you are dead wrong about Osensei's views on bushido. Osensei was a close personal friend of the very people who used bushido to influence young Japanese people to join the military during WWII. Osensei was at least associated with multiple members of a Japanese secret society whose goal was to use bushido to re-glorify the samurai families by creating a class-oriented military hierarchy as the first step to returing to a pre-meiji social structure.

O'Sensei was a soider during Japanese invasion of China. I'm not surprised about his political views during that time. Did he still hold this meiji idea in his late life? Did that happen before his "enlightenment" or after?

bkedelen
01-06-2006, 01:25 PM
That is a good point, I just wanted to mention that such things are a part of our record of his life. Of course you would not want to send you child to a Klan meeting. Nevertheless you would not necessarily expect your child to turn out bad if they studied Nazism in school. There is an important difference between learning about ideas and being told that ideas are the "Truth" about the world. The problem lies not in the existence of the idea, but in the character of its dissemination and the character of those chosen to receive the idea. An example is the new Pope, who despite being a member of the Hitler Youth, has made his life a passionate attempt at reconciliation, and even though I do not agree with his conservative leanings, I think he has done a good job of proving that humans choose to be what they are, they are not merely the playthings of the various memes with which they are infected.

roosvelt
01-06-2006, 02:49 PM
That is a good point, I just wanted to mention that such things are a part of our record of his life. Of course you would not want to send you child to a Klan meeting. Nevertheless you would not necessarily expect your child to turn out bad if they studied Nazism in school. There is an important difference between learning about ideas and being told that ideas are the "Truth" about the world. The problem lies not in the existence of the idea, but in the character of its dissemination and the character of those chosen to receive the idea. An example is the new Pope, who despite being a member of the Hitler Youth, has made his life a passionate attempt at reconciliation, and even though I do not agree with his conservative leanings, I think he has done a good job of proving that humans choose to be what they are, they are not merely the playthings of the various memes with which they are infected.


As much as I believe I'm a independent thinker, unless I have version directly from "God", I'm bound to learn "ideas" from others.

Suppose the Germany defeated U.S. and the new Pope remained under Nazi party, do you still think somehow he'd denounce Nizism and become devoted catholic. Suppose O'sensei didn't get the omoto teaching, do you still think he'd hold the meiin ideas until his death?

men are product of circumstances. Only a few true saints and very crazies can stand alone.

bkedelen
01-06-2006, 03:14 PM
Wow. A great counterexample to my arguments is the interview on Aikido Journal with Masando Sasaki. He is the Ann Coulter of Aikido. My personal favorite part of the interview is when he comments about how the brain waves of "baser people" and the brain waves of brave ubermensch Aikidoka are different. Maybe this can be a part of the proud Aikido tradition I am hoping to pass on to my children.

Josh Reyer
01-07-2006, 07:07 AM
No. Ididn't blame "bushido" for Rape of Nanjing.

Then why bring it up?

Is that wrong to blame "nazism" for holocaust?

The fact was that "bushido" was promoted in the Japanese army in the WWII. The killing was done by those Japanese. You could argue the wrong type of "bushido" was misinterpreted in that period in Japan.

I would argue nothing of the sort. I would argue that the causes of Nanjing were the exact same as the causes of My Lai, the Holocaust, Dresden, and Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Dehumanization and deindividuation. Any time there is armed conflict, the enemy is dehumanized. WWII propoganda on both sides are easy examples of this, as well as the usual tactics of referring to the enemy by an all-encompassing dimunitive, rumors of atrocities by the other side, etc.

Deindividuation is, put simply, mob mentality. Highly encouraged in most militaries, where adherence to orders is held to be paramount, and the linked chain of command can lead to all sorts passing off of final responsibilities. But also often found in non-war situations, too. Looting in New Orleans, for example, or the Los Angeles riots. When one doesn't feel that one will be held responsible for his actions, one can commit all sorts of violence.

People like to blame ideologies and philosophies for atrocities because we don't want to believe that we all have the capacity for such great evil against our fellow man. But Stanley Milgram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) put a rest to that delusion decades ago. Bushido, Socialism (in the case of Nazism), Democracy, Communism, Chivalry, Christianity, Islam, these are but the once idealistic, alturistic concepts that have been at one time or another co-opted as rationalizations by opportunists to have someone else do the dirty work.

However, my point was I believed O'Sensei was more of a Japanese version of Buddhasm than bushidosm.

That is first a false dichotomy. One can be Buddhist and be an adherent of bushido (Miyamoto Musashi prayed to Kannon the day he started writing the Book of Five Rings), or Shintoist, or even Christian (there were a number of Christian samurai before the Tokugawa shogunate cracked down on foreign influence).

As for Ueshiba, he believed in Omoto-kyo, which is an ecclesiastic off-shoot of Shinto (which was just subverted by the powers that were in fascist Japan just as bushido was). And while he didn't talk much about bushido, he certainly made a great deal of budo, calling aikido "budo", even "the true budo" until his dying day.

George S. Ledyard
01-07-2006, 05:32 PM
I know that. So there is no difference if you send your kids to a Christan church, a KKK campus, a communist party, a buddha temple, a islam fighter cell, or a strip join every sunday morning? Ideas just ideas, right?

There is good idea and bad idea and evil idea. Good ideas don't generate good deed always. But evil ideas for sure generate less good deeds.



O'Sensei was a soider during Japanese invasion of China. I'm not surprised about his political views during that time. Did he still hold this meiji idea in his late life? Did that happen before his "enlightenment" or after?

O-Sensei was a "soldier" in the Russo Japanese War. He did visit Manchuria which was a Japanese puppet state but wasn't officially connected with that effort. He did accompany Deguchi to the mainland, hoping to assist him in his mission to set up a spiritual kingdom there. Whereas the goals of this enterprise were clearly Utopian, in typical japanese fashion, no one asked the locals if they were enthused about the idea of said Utopia being set up in what had been their country...

It is my belief that it was the Japanese defeat in WWII that changed his thinking although there are indicators that he didn't agree with the path the Right wing militarists from earlier on. It is absolutely true that he counted a large number of extreme right leaders as friends. Also typical Japanese fashion, when there was dis-agreement he absented himself in Iwama rather than have a direct conflict and falling out with these people.

The belief in the unique character of the Japanese people and the sense of mission it gave many of them is an idea that is found in many cultures. If you look at the Center for the New American Century you can find precisely this mindset at work in our onw context.

In O-Sensei's case I believe that his take on this was always more benevolent than what many of the militarists took. I think he saw the Kannagara no Michi giving the Yamaato Daishi a unique character which made the Japanese special. I don't think that meant he saw the Japanese as superior and therefore it was ok to kill or enslave the peoples of the other countries in Asia... But there is no doubt he was friends with folks who took the idea of their superiority to that extreme.

Don_Modesto
01-07-2006, 06:49 PM
O-Sensei....It is my belief that it was the Japanese defeat in WWII that changed his thinking although there are indicators that he didn't agree with the path the Right wing militarists from earlier on.Tough call. I'd like to think so. There's evidence for it, if vague (reservations in parantheses):

* He wrote of "monofu no michi, an old term for warriors code, instead of "bushido", a concept tainted by militarist indoctrination and exploitation of romatic values;

* He did absent himself (but in 1942, kind of late, no?)

* His guru, Deguchi, wrote excoriating things about the rightists in Japan (but out of jealousy of their power; he was an enthusiastic proponent of the right when it served his ambitions);

* (Osensei's prose in the 30's uses many catch phrases of the militarists.)

* He wrote of "harmony" (but Jpn the political idiom at the time in general, and Osensei's mystical language in particular, was procrustean--one size fits all. As historian John Dower noted, what the Jpn said about their fascist intentions during the war could be used without modification during their conversion to the newfound religion of "demakurashi". Harmony meant, without blush, thought police bursting into the home of dissident academics in the middle of the night and beating them to death with staves. DERU KUGI WA UTARERU.)

* (Deguchi offered his services as bodyguard to Colonel Hashimoto, a war criminal executed by GHQ.)

It is absolutely true that he counted a large number of extreme right leaders as friends. Also typical Japanese fashion, when there was dis-agreement he absented himself in Iwama rather than have a direct conflict and falling out with these people. He also absented himself from his guru's side during the Second Omoto Incident and retired to Iwama during the Occupation leaving his young son to nurture aikido right under the noses of GHQ.

We default to "discretion" or "disagreement" in consideration of Osensei's accomplishments, but a disinterested party (and in the grand scheme of things, aikido isn't really important enough to have disinterested parties) might be more inclined to think in terms of fear.

In O-Sensei's case I believe that his take on this was always more benevolent than what many of the militarists took. I think he saw the Kannagara no Michi giving the Yamaato Daishi a unique character which made the Japanese special. I don't think that meant he saw the Japanese as superior and therefore it was ok to kill or enslave the peoples of the other countries in Asia... But there is no doubt he was friends with folks who took the idea of their superiority to that extreme.I want to believe this, but the conflicting evidence leaves me on the fence.

Josh Reyer
01-07-2006, 08:46 PM
Tough call. I'd like to think so. There's evidence for it, if vague (reservations in parantheses):

* He wrote of "monofu no michi, an old term for warriors code, instead of "bushido", a concept tainted by militarist indoctrination and exploitation of romatic values;


Indeed. Bushido = 武士道. "Mononofu no michi" = 武士の道. The first is the Chinese reading (Mandaring "wu shi dao", Cantonese "mou si dou"), the latter is "yamato kotoba", purely Japanese words.

Mat Hill
01-07-2006, 09:07 PM
Good post Josh. Especially the 'Then why bring it up' part! There are times and places for this discussion like any other... but since the thread starter was wiffling nonsense arbitrary categories and saw his arse about the replies, following up by completely failing to harmonize with anything and throwing his toys out of the pram... let's go for it! :D

I have to say though, that although in general I agree with your post, Milgrams reductionism is also a form of revisionism. He says that we invent these ideaologies to cover our base instincts, but he doesn't acknowledge the very real harm these ideologies cause in movements especially on emotionally stimulated minds.

I think that's what Roosevelt is on about, and I agree with that part of his assessment. It's a nice intellectual conceit to say idealogy is biding dark urges but is not practical or useful in combatting those ideologies. But... Roosevelt, why are you here? You could answer any question on aikiweb by saying simply 'I don't give a rat's ass after seeing these pictures...' and linking them and that doesn't help either.

Of course we get emotional when seeing horrors like that, which leads us to make knee-jerk blanket observayions like bushido is to blame for Nanking. Yes of course we can argue that prewar nationalists' bushido was a wrong interpretation: but that's wrong... it was just another interpretation of many ways of thinking: no ideology is fixed.

And to say this The fact was that "bushido" was promoted in the Japanese army in the WWII. The killing was done by those Japanese.is further revisionism belying the banality of the killing for most of the people there.
--------------------------------------------------

George Ledyard, Don Modesto, excellent posts.

Buut, he was using the lexicon commonly used by people in his time: did he have a chance/will to redefine these terms at this point to completely avoid any misinterpretation by future historians and scholars? No, of course not. Not till later, when he'd made a name for himself and had time and detachment to redefine a lot of the language he was using, when he denounced such ideologies in '42... and that's precisely what he did.

And the fear he felt leading to his absentism to Iwama, if it was, is not necessarily contradicting any opposition to those policies. It may not have been the right thing to do, and the courage to somehow fight against perceived injustice would be preferable especially in a leader/founder of a martial arts movement, but he was only human.

Mato-san
01-14-2006, 06:20 AM
Ok I said I wouldnt be back, this is what inspired me,
http://www.aikido-world.com/reflections/reflections.htm
I also like the ukemi comment from Josh. I see people are starting to be real, Ukemi comment to me is being teased and I like it, it funny for me . Being teased and having your teeth extracted two different things. I like the link I provided it is comforting.

Mato-san
01-14-2006, 06:38 AM
Mathew,
Ok, so people were a bit harsh... I certainly apologize for any offense I gave. I do have to say that after reading your post a few times, I still wasn't clear about what you were saying in various parts... I think that's the source of Don's question about whether English is your first language...

People on this forum are generally fairly polite, especially when compared to other places one might hang on the internet, but you have to think clearly about what you want to say or ask because there are quite a few folks who have been around for a number of years and once in a while are less patient than we all ought to be. I wouldn't take it too seriously, though. But if you leave yourself open for some teasing, you'll probably get it... that would be true anyplace I think.Anyway, Aikido is a martial art and it's best not to have too thin a skin, so to speak.

I'd be happy to contribute my own answer to your question if I understood it better. Feel free to explain if you want...
- George
Diplomacy thats why I like you!

Mato-san
01-16-2006, 06:56 AM
http://www.aikido-world.com/reflections/reflections.htm
Any idea who wrote this article, put together the pages?.

Ron Tisdale
01-16-2006, 09:38 AM
from the link on the page:

http://www.aikido-world.com/Contributors/index.html

CONTRIBUTORS


Cheryl Matrasko

Cheryl Matrasko is a Network Analyst for the department of Networking and Communications at a prominent Chicago hospital. Formerly the LAN Administrator for Northwestern University Medical School - Department of OB/GYN, and assistant LAN Administrator to the previous MIS of the School of Law.

She started Aikido in 1965, studying under Isao Takahashi as her first instructor. She enjoyed working out under many well known Aikido instructors during her tenure with Takahashi Sensei, such as Yoshihiko Hirata, 4th Dan, to name only a few and and many more thereafter following his death in 1971. Cheryl has dedicated time with instructors in Northern Shaolin Long-Fist, Seven Stars Praying Mantis, and Daito-Ryu Aikijujitsu to extend her martial arts education and perspectives. Currently, she is instructing Aikido at Northwestern University's Chicago Campus and supporting Aikido World Journal.

Best,
Ron

Mato-san
01-30-2006, 04:17 AM
This is what I get in my mail box " A Clown" someone sees others taking the oppurtunity to crap on a fellow aikidoist and they think it is a chance to give a little verbal smackdown or wize guy act! Because openly ranked individuals choose to step on someone who displays equality and produces discussion not display.

"You talk of people who disrespect the Japanese culture, yet you do not recognize that you have actually committed one of the most arrogant, ignorant acts in using their language? You have given yourself the title of -san. San is an honourific, and the japanese value modesty to no measurable degree. If you are going to talk about disrespect toward cultures, youd better hop theat noone from that particular culture is listening."

I can`t retrieve my reply but it was something like this.

I Live and train in Japan, I live under the roof of 5 Japanese people, one of which is my wife.
Study the art, the language and culture on a daily basis and to my immediate knowledge, the post fix -san is nothing more than a literal meaning of Mr or Mrs , to refer to myself as -sama would be glorifing my title but to call myself Mr Mat, I think is pretty regular. I give no satisfaction in being glorified or belittled in any shape or form so be mindful when stating your opinions. You know not who I am. You know nothing about me or my topic.

Edwin Neal
01-30-2006, 04:43 AM
Mato - san... belong to all categories as the spirit moves me... don't be disheartened... some are just the way they are... let them pass... good luck... eat some gyoza for me... i miss japan...

PeterR
01-30-2006, 05:01 AM
That's mild Mathew - and irrelevant to your Aikido and to your posting here. There is always someone who feels they can be obnoxious from the safety of the keyboard. They also come out like rats when it looks like you've crossed the party line. I've had some ripe ones in the past - best forgotten.

Yup the guy is right - you never introduce yourself with an honorific but you knew that. I got the meaning behind the username, quite apt I thought. It reminds me when I first returned to Canada after several years in Japan and joined a seminar. I ended up being lectured on how Japanese really are/behave by someone who had never been out of Canada and, I am pretty sure, knew exactly where I just came from.

There are solutions of course.
1) stop posting. No reason for that. Quite an enjoyable community and your contribution is welcome.
2) modify what you post. I'll admit to doing a little of that myself. A little bit of aggravation is quite enjoyable - too much. Yuck.
3) post political correct pablum just to hear yourself type. Nah where's the fun in that.

My own rules. Keep all post reasonably short, most very short. Don't over think the philosophy - its the mat that counts.

Peto-san

PeterR
01-30-2006, 05:27 AM
By the by I train Aikido as Budo - the Bushido ala Hagakure has no relevance for me.

Mato-san
01-31-2006, 07:14 AM
Edwin, Pete thanks guys, yep irrelevent, brush it off like dust on the gi, I love gyoza!
I will take the advise on being too outspoken and just enjoy the community. And life for that matter!
Post politics nope, I shall never, to many know it alls around, I will keep my political to myself, post opinions and enjoy the community, I need not to make a name for myself here. Whats the merit in that. Again VERY welcome suggestions. I will not discontinue using Mato-san as my title because where I am now that is my name.It is by no means a self glorification.

Luc X Saroufim
01-31-2006, 07:39 AM
to the original poster:

if you're still interested, I decided to train in Aikido because I found out that it emphasizes the spiritual, as well as physical aspects of marital arts. i'm not much of a fighter, but i am interested in connecting mind, body, and soul, and i think Aikido helps me do that. so you can throw me in whatever category that makes sense to you.

to everybody else that went off-topic: hypocrites exist all over the world and this will never change. what is important is how choose to define Bushido. If Bushido has no meaning to you because it's so-called practitioners are looters and killers, so be it. personally, I will practice "the way" by my own terms and not pay attention to anyone that disrespects it.

Chuck.Gordon
01-31-2006, 07:41 AM
Matthew,

Welcome. I think some of the initial response was because the budo-vs-bushido thing has been beaten to death here on Aikiweb. As for your categories, I think most folks who do budo fall into one or more different categories at different times.

In comparing the two terms, budo and bushido, I think many folks misinterpret them. Budo is a very generic term for just about any Japanese martial practice (and some would apply it to practices from outside Japan, but that's a different discussion).

Bushido is far more nebulous. Sure, we can parse a translation and a rough definition, but beyond that, the term gets problemmatic.

There was no monolithic 'bushido'. Historically, we can find many interpretations about how a member of the samurai/bushi class should act; and there are some floating around in popular MA circles (i.e. Hagakure) that have about as much to do with most of the history of budo in Japan as a spaghetti western has to do with the life of a cowboy.

It's be nice to point to a convenient set of maxims, something like Takeda Shingen's maybe, to illustrate 'proper' behavior. More correct, I think, is that the morals, mores and values of the warrior class in Japanese history varied widely from era to era, from location to location and from clan to clan. Some we'd be familiar with and comfortable with from our modern budo practice, but others were brutal, ugly and might appear to be senseless according to our modern values.

The 'bushido' preached in the pre-WW II buildup was a perveted construct, designed specifically to bolster the heightened sense of emporer-worship of national Shinto and the predatory aspirations of those who were running the country at the time. It had little or nothing to do with budo, except that the budo arts were tools with which the rulers could inculcate 'bushido' spirit in the populace.

Mato-san
01-31-2006, 08:22 AM
Without getting to deep Luc Amen!
Chuck, the most most spirited fighters in the world bought an unbeatable hand to hand (sword to sword) combat to a gun battle.
You do the math.
I hate getting into the war topic, I will avoid it at all costs.
Good Job in seperating the terms, and I am sorry if I formed categories.
Like you said it has been done, but my true intension was to bring out the prespectives on it.
Goal achieved.
Thanks again I appreciate it.
It is a deep subject and if we go way deep it will become shallow.