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Steve Morabito
01-04-2006, 01:04 PM
We practiced Gokyo this week with Uke using a tanto and a yokomen strike. It becomes apparent why one would use Gokyo as opposed to, say, Ikkyo in this situation. (Gokyo splints Uke's wrist and the weapon is immobilized and out of the way.) Are there other situations or attack forms where Gokyo appears to be the "better" choice? Why? Are folks practicing Gokyo regularly? From what attack forms do you practice it? Does Gokyo have the same value as other immobilizations?
Thanks,
Steve

Neil Mick
01-04-2006, 02:08 PM
Are there other situations or attack forms where Gokyo appears to be the "better" choice?

IMO, this is the wrong question. Is sankyo "better" than ikkyo?

It is better to think of these forms as organic movements that lead from one to the other. Try practicing shomenuchi ikkyo, blending into nikkyo, then sankyo, all the way through the progressive movements into gokyo, to see what I mean.

Are folks practicing Gokyo regularly?

Certain movements go in and out of "fashion." Gokyo isn't demonstrated much, which (IMO) is a pity.

From what attack forms do you practice it?

Any attack.

Does Gokyo have the same value as other immobilizations?
Thanks,
Steve

Yes, it does. Wait till you learn rokyo! ;)

RebeccaM
01-04-2006, 03:54 PM
Gokyo and rokyo are "better" when there's a blade involved simply because you're less likely to get your fingers sliced, but as far as effectiveness goes they're all equal. Some might be easier to get into from a particular attack (ie, it's much faster and easier to apply a nikkyo to someone who's got you by the lapel than it it is to apply yonkyo), but if you do the technique right the result is the same: your attacker is not attacking you anymore.

Devon Natario
01-04-2006, 05:13 PM
Gokyo is one of my favorites. I try to use this in lessons at least bi-weekly.

Mato-san
01-05-2006, 06:36 AM
I like all the "Kyos" simple because they are like the iceing on the cake that you build. "Cake" being the technique of course and depending on the cake ,you may choose the most sufficient iceing to complement the complete product!...I like that!

Charles Cunningham
01-05-2006, 10:16 AM
I use gokyo as a backup for nikyo, in case a strong uke gives me an unbendable wrist (although sankyo and yonkyo are also good henkawaza). During a sliding hand switch from ikkyo, if I feel strong resistance to a wrist bend, I continue to slide round to the forearm to catch gokyo. Besides, the gokyo pin helps increase uke's wrist flexibility for the next nikyo.

James Davis
01-05-2006, 12:31 PM
Gokyo is also useful when the attacker grabs someone else. ;)

Rod Yabut
01-05-2006, 06:14 PM
Why not? I'm not sure if I've mindfully setup myself to do gokyo/rokyo, but I think they are great techniques to use as a crutch in the course of henkawaza. Sometimes iikyo slips and you have to use something else.

SmilingNage
01-05-2006, 06:42 PM
Gokyo gets covered alot when testing comes rolling around. In the usaf, 2nd kyu and above will have to demonstrate it in their tests.
Usually gotten from a shomen or yokomen attack. I think the pin is really effective and painful.

xuzen
01-05-2006, 08:31 PM
Go-kyo helps numerically challenged aikido-ka to learn how to count to at least 5. :D

batemanb
01-06-2006, 04:14 AM
Go-kyo helps numerically challenged aikido-ka to learn how to count to at least 5. :D


5-kyo? :D

Jorx
01-07-2006, 04:36 AM
Gokyo is only type of wristlock I have ever seen pulled off in BJJ/submissiongappling tourneys.

Aikilove
01-07-2006, 07:49 AM
Wrist lock? How do you get this to a lock? For me it's more a wrist/forearm control.. There is no twisting motion on the wrist in gokyo when I do it (I mean it's like ikkyo but with the wrist hand under the wrist, palm up, compared with over the wrist palm down.). Maybe in the end of a knife disarm where one pushes the wrist down to the mat and lift the elbow (kind of chicken-wing like). Is this what you mean?

Gokyo - sometimes called ude nobashi (i.e. arm stretching)

/J

eyrie
01-07-2006, 10:00 PM
I think Jorgen means Mao de Vaca (cowhand). Another variation is commonly known as the "gooseneck". Soto makikomi from a gooseneck. Nasty!!

Jorx
01-08-2006, 09:00 AM
Yes I was taught this was the final pin of gokyo - gooseneck. Initial control being sort of "reverse ikkyo" and when pinned on ground then the lock.

ian
01-09-2006, 08:54 AM
Saito shows in one of his videos how someone with a knife (blade prtruding from little finger end) produce nikkyo on nage when you attempt ikkyo; blade goes over nages wrist to the outside.

Goykyo prevents this - however I think it is mechanically slightly worse as the thumb rather than the hand may get more pressure from the downward attack (thumb being weaker) if you are not careful or blending well.

Also gokyo tends to be done with the blade to your left slightly - by directing with non grabbing hand (so you are not underneath it and thus get don't killed if you miss). If you do this with ikkyo it is weaker and it often exposes your rib cage beneath the grabbing hand (since it produces something more like a karate block).

Practically, 60% of people attacked with knives don't realise until after the attack. Also, any skilled knife-fighter will conceal the weapon and probably strike you first with their other fist (or grab you). Thus I hate to seperate weapon from unarmed responses (aikido rarely does seperate them).

Although ikkyo and irimi-nage (I believe) are the very core of aikido, all the techniques are part of one whole. Removing it would be like removing kokyu-nage. From something like a shoulder grab, it can sometimes be more convenient to go for a nikkyo, but if the arm locks out and the hand releases this can easily flow into a gokyo.

I certainly think all the individual technique practise is just so we don't get shocked when the techniques spontaneously appear from free-style (blending) aikido practise.

Lee Mulgrew
01-20-2006, 04:52 AM
Wrist lock? How do you get this to a lock? For me it's more a wrist/forearm control.. There is no twisting motion on the wrist in gokyo when I do it (I mean it's like ikkyo but with the wrist hand under the wrist, palm up, compared with over the wrist palm down.). Maybe in the end of a knife disarm where one pushes the wrist down to the mat and lift the elbow (kind of chicken-wing like). Is this what you mean?

Gokyo - sometimes called ude nobashi (i.e. arm stretching)

/J
it is is a wrist lock because if you have your hand placed so that the middle finger is placed along the line where the uke's hand and wrist meet you can tilt your hand and imobilise their hand (it can also be quite painful if you have a strong grip!) this is very useful for stopping them 'waggling' the knife about (their wrist is effectively locked in one immovable posistion!

Dazzler
01-20-2006, 05:31 AM
Saito shows in one of his videos how someone with a knife (blade prtruding from little finger end) produce nikkyo on nage when you attempt ikkyo; blade goes over nages wrist to the outside.

Goykyo prevents this - however I think it is mechanically slightly worse as the thumb rather than the hand may get more pressure from the downward attack (thumb being weaker) if you are not careful or blending well.

Also gokyo tends to be done with the blade to your left slightly - by directing with non grabbing hand (so you are not underneath it and thus get don't killed if you miss). If you do this with ikkyo it is weaker and it often exposes your rib cage beneath the grabbing

hand (since it produces something more like a karate block)..

This agrees pretty much with how I've been taught. The turning of the wrist enables a blade to be turned away from tori. This allows the execution of ikkyo style tenkan (whatever variation floats your boat) while keeping the business end of any weapon away from Tori.


Practically, 60% of people attacked with knives don't realise until after the attack. Also, any skilled knife-fighter will conceal the weapon and probably strike you first with their other fist (or grab you). Thus I hate to seperate weapon from unarmed responses (aikido rarely does seperate them).

Although ikkyo and irimi-nage (I believe) are the very core of aikido, all the techniques are part of one whole. Removing it would be like removing kokyu-nage. From something like a shoulder grab, it can sometimes be more convenient to go for a nikkyo, but if the arm locks out and the hand releases this can easily flow into a gokyo.

I certainly think all the individual technique practise is just so we don't get shocked when the techniques spontaneously appear from free-style (blending) aikido practise.

I'm sure this has been covered aplenty.....but a skilled knife user will if they seriously mean to use it, impale you while smiling in your face. There will be no warning.

A mugger will most likely show you the blade to get your wallet...no need to get themselves all messy with your blood after all.

Which leaves untrained attackers inflamed by emotion flailing about with weapons and putting themselves and everyone about in danger.

In this case you might get to see the weapon and make a more conscious choice of response.

Of course in life there is no black and white and not everyone easily falls into the categories above...I'll suggest a sensible bottom line is don't fool yourself into thinking dojo practice makes you able to work against a knife. It may give you an edge (pun intented!) on an untrained attacker especially if he is unaware of your secret talents ...(dodgy cross reference to other thread on secret aikido by bokken carrier with a kamiza on his desk :confused: ). But all it does is improve the ratio....a 99% chance you will live still leaves a 1% chance you won't. ( ( :) x 99 or :dead: x 1)

So who's for russian roulette with a revover with 100 barrels? ;)

I think this line of thinking is behind our treatment of gokyo as a primarily ura technique. Who in their right mind would go forward onto a blade ? far better to just walk away if the option exists.

I agree with Ian that techniques should have same base whether with or without weapons...minor adjustments will be required just as are found when changing from yokomen to shomen for instance. But essentially its all the same.


Friday musings over...dissect at your leisure.

D

grondahl
01-20-2006, 06:40 AM
If uke has a strong forward wrist I don't want to do the appropriate nikyo-henka then find it much easier to slide in to rokkyo than gokyo. And with rokkyo I mean the aikido version of waki gatame.

Johan Nielsen
01-25-2006, 04:25 AM
We practiced Gokyo this week with Uke using a tanto and a yokomen strike. It becomes apparent why one would use Gokyo as opposed to, say, Ikkyo in this situation. (Gokyo splints Uke's wrist and the weapon is immobilized and out of the way.) Are there other situations or attack forms where Gokyo appears to be the "better" choice? Why? Are folks practicing Gokyo regularly? From what attack forms do you practice it? Does Gokyo have the same value as other immobilizations?
Thanks,
Steve
The ikkyu and gokyu and of course quite similar. But they are used in slightly different situations. In this case (tanto + yokomen strike) depending on how the attacker are actually holding the knife. If the blade is pointing upwards to his thumb, a ikkyu could just as well. But if the blade is pointing downwards towards the little finger, a gokyu is better, as you don't cut yourself on the blade just as easyly. You can control his hand better and stay safer. I believe Ian expalined it pretty well.

ChrisHein
10-20-2006, 01:48 AM
I've been thinking about gokyo quite a bit lately, and really I don't think I get it. Either it has never been explained to me properly (or some how I've failed to understand it in all the years I've been doing it), or it is kind of a lost technique or it's quite simply lame.

Here's what I can tell is different about gokyo then Ikkyo,

1. Your hand is palm up when you are applying it as oppose to palm down.
2. You only do ura movements when doing gokyo (Don't ask me why)
3. There is a different pin.

That's it, thatís all I can see that's different from Ikkyo. I think I must be missing something. I've talk with other Aikidoka about it, people who should be in the know, but they are either as mystified as myself, or they have some silly reason, that doesn't make since to me.

One of the big questions about the whole thing for me is, the basic Iwama form for Katate dori Ikkyo, is done with the hand in the same position as gokyo (palm up), but it's not called gokyo, it's called ikkyo. Making it ever more confounding, is the fact that that form (katate dori ikkyo) is really a model form for ikkyo, but other then the fact that the pin is different and there is an omote as well as ura, it might as well be gokyo.

Another problem I have is; if the pin, and the hand position make a big enough difference to make a different form (from ikkyo to gokyo), then why aren't there more forms for nikyo? I mean I can do Nikyo on my shoulder, I can do it cross handed, or I can do it same handed, yet they are all Nikkyos. There are several different pins for sankyo, and kotegaishi, but they don't get different names just because they have different pins.

I simply don't get it. Does anyone out there have any different information about gokyo, besides the whole knife thing, I really think there has to be more to it then that.

-Chris Hein

grondahl
10-20-2006, 02:20 AM
But Toris grip of uke in katate dori ikkyo and any gokyo differs, atleast in all versions I have seen.

ian
10-20-2006, 06:12 AM
Gokyo is primarily from a weapon (usually knife) attack. Saito shows on one of his vids that traditional ikkyo with a knife, if it gets stuck, allows them to do a nikyo on you with the blade(!).

The reason I think it 'appears' to be ura (I wouldn't like to say this is always the case) is that generally with a knife attack you just want to get out the way!

I tend not to seperate gokyo from ikkyo too much (60% of people do not realise they have been in a knife attack until afterwards). I suppose the main thing is the real entering into the elbow and off centeredness to protect yourself.

Ian

odudog
10-20-2006, 10:13 AM
....Here's what I can tell is different about gokyo then Ikkyo,

1. Your hand is palm up when you are applying it as oppose to palm down.
2. You only do ura movements when doing gokyo (Don't ask me why)
3. There is a different pin.

That's it, that's all I can see that's different from Ikkyo. I think I must be missing something. I've talk with other Aikidoka about it, people who should be in the know, but they are either as mystified as myself, or they have some silly reason, that doesn't make since to me.

One of the big questions about the whole thing for me is, the basic Iwama form for Katate dori Ikkyo, is done with the hand in the same position as gokyo (palm up), but it's not called gokyo, it's called ikkyo. Making it ever more confounding, is the fact that that form (katate dori ikkyo) is really a model form for ikkyo, but other then the fact that the pin is different and there is an omote as well as ura, it might as well be gokyo.

Another problem I have is; if the pin, and the hand position make a big enough difference to make a different form (from ikkyo to gokyo), then why aren't there more forms for nikyo? I mean I can do Nikyo on my shoulder, I can do it cross handed, or I can do it same handed, yet they are all Nikkyos. There are several different pins for sankyo, and kotegaishi, but they don't get different names just because they have different pins....-Chris Hein

1. Yes. That is the diffrence.
2. There is omote as well. Aikido is ambidextrous so all techniques have omote and ura.
3. Yes, as you already noted.

The Iwama video might be a mistake. Depending on how you remove uke's hand will determine if you have ikkyo, nikkyo, or kotegaeshi.

You can do nikkyo in several different ways but they all have the ever important "Z" so they are all nikkyo. We all know how the wrist is supposed to be twised to do a sankkyo. Don't look for the differences in the pin, instead look for the commanilities within the pin. Once you see this, then you will see why the technique is still called nikkyo or sankkyo etc....

ChrisHein
10-21-2006, 02:54 AM
Mike,
wise people know that they don't know, what they don't know.

Peter Goldsbury
10-21-2006, 08:19 AM
I would be interested in seeing any evidence that Morihei Ueshiba taught this particular waza in the Kobukan, before WWII. He probably did, but never gave it a name. Likewise, the waza does not appear among the waza highlighted in Aikido, the book published in Japanese by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in 1957. However, it does appear in the English version of this book, published in 1975, so I suspect that 5-kyou, like kaiten-nage, was added to the repertoire of kihon waza by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

In my opinion, as a waza, 5-kyou is the same as 1-kyou, except for the hand grip. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is a pin on the elbow; 2-kyou is a pin at the base of the thumb; 3-kyou is a pin of the wrist and outer fingers; 4-kyou is a pin of the bone or nerve centres in the wrist; 5-kyou is a pin on the elbow, but with a weapon held with one hand (unlike 1-kyou, which envisages an attack with a Japanese sword, held with both hands). And then there is 6-kyou, which is a variation of 2-kyou, but where uke's arm is kept straight.

I encountered 6-kyou only in the USA, in Kanai Sensei's dojo, 4 years after my first encounter with aikido.

Best wishes to all,

Jeff Sodeman
10-21-2006, 05:07 PM
Not really an answer to your post but...

Rokyo (6) I generally see it in tantodori more than open hand, and most of the people I've talked to about the technique refer to it as hijiosae instead of rokyo. Likewise gokyo also seems to be more related to weapon takeaway.

ChrisHein
10-21-2006, 05:10 PM
Hey Peter,
Thanx, that was the kind of info I was looking for. Funny thing about 6th kyo (Rokyo) is I would drop teaching 5th kyo as separately named technique Except I like calling rokyo rokyo, but with out a Gokyo, it seems silly to call Rokyo Rokyo.

So it is your belief that gokyo was named by Kisshomaru, and added later. Anyone else have any info on Gokyo (5 kyo)

Thanx
-Chris

ChrisHein
10-21-2006, 05:14 PM
Jeff,
You posted at the same time as me. We do lots of rokyo from empty handed stuff. Rokyo is kinid of a funny one, seems like rokyo is one that gets called by lots of differn't names and done differnly often. Also Rokyo is one of the few Aikido techniques that I find often useful in actual fights that I have been in.

-Chris
Please don't let this take us off subject, anymore about gokyo?

David Humm
10-21-2006, 05:14 PM
I can't comment on the origins of gokyo. I can say however that I've studied this waza along with the remaining osae since the day I started training.

I've always understood that from a characteristic point of view, gokyo is identified from other osae in the making through the gripping of the wrist and placement of tori's thumb roughly where uke's pulse would be.

I've also understood gokyo to be particularly related to knife defense and this has been reinforced several times when the technique has only been requested in gradings when uke is holding a tanto, indeed I've seen occasions when all of the osae waza are presented (with empty handed attacks) and a tanto requested and used specifically for gokyo.

As an ending, I don't consider gokyo to be particularly effective at pinning or immobilization, I speak from experience having removed a shank from a prisoner using this very technique however, whilst great pain can be induced upon the joints, there isn't IMHO enough control over center for it to be considered an effective immobilization hence, this further reinforces my opinion that gokyo is a means to an end in terms of disarming a knife wielding attacker and not much more.

eyrie
10-21-2006, 07:05 PM
That's coz you're not doing it this way:

David Humm
10-21-2006, 07:14 PM
That's coz you're not doing it this way:To whom are you addressing? Me, the origonal poster or other contributors to the thread ? Why not be a bit more specific, you know join in the discussion.

The technique you presented in the image included with your post is remarkably similar to one of the few "approved" methods of control and restaint that I was taught as a Prison Officer and, I've taught to my aikido students as a 'standing' version of gokyo.

eyrie
10-21-2006, 08:33 PM
Sorry Dave, yes, I was addressing your post. :)

I see 1-kyo to 6-kyo as principles rather than techniques. 5-kyo is a basic forearm stretch (ude no bashi), utilizing the elbow as the "base" and the flexion of the wrist as a lever against itself. There's a nice variation (a reverse gokyo lock) used as nikyo counter...

ChrisHein
10-21-2006, 10:18 PM
I agree with you Dave, I think Gokyo isnít a very effective pin, or rather the gokyo pin is not an effective pin for truly controlling a person by yourself. However if you have a buddy who can sit on the knife wielding attacker while you can apply the gokyo "pin" to disarm your assailant, it seems to have some realistic applications. I've personally never actually disarmed anyone with it (in an actual confrontation), but it seems like it might work.

I can't help but think there is something about Gokyo that I'm missing, the points that I have come to understand as differentiating gokyo from ikkyo don't seem to be strong enough to me to warrant another technique/principle.

Anyone else?

Thanks
-Chris

Ethan Weisgard
10-22-2006, 06:46 AM
My teacher Morihiro Saito Sensei explained that the bent-arm form in the osae of Gokyo was difficult to do if your opponent was strong. The alternative osae was to take uke down, and when bringing uke's shoulder down for the submission, you keep the control on his elbow with the inside hand. Keeping your outer knee up, you can pressure uke's elbow by keeping the wrist-holding hand - and thereby also the blade - in check above your outer leg (knee) with the blade under control and facing away from you, and at the same time putting pressure on uke's elbow until he releases the blade.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Ethan Weisgard
10-22-2006, 06:59 AM
I would be interested in seeing any evidence that Morihei Ueshiba taught this particular waza in the Kobukan, before WWII. He probably did, but never gave it a name. Likewise, the waza does not appear among the waza highlighted in Aikido, the book published in Japanese by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in 1957. However, it does appear in the English version of this book, published in 1975, so I suspect that 5-kyou, like kaiten-nage, was added to the repertoire of kihon waza by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

In my opinion, as a waza, 5-kyou is the same as 1-kyou, except for the hand grip. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is a pin on the elbow; 2-kyou is a pin at the base of the thumb; 3-kyou is a pin of the wrist and outer fingers; 4-kyou is a pin of the bone or nerve centres in the wrist; 5-kyou is a pin on the elbow, but with a weapon held with one hand (unlike 1-kyou, which envisages an attack with a Japanese sword, held with both hands). And then there is 6-kyou, which is a variation of 2-kyou, but where uke's arm is kept straight.

I encountered 6-kyou only in the USA, in Kanai Sensei's dojo, 4 years after my first encounter with aikido.

Best wishes to all,

Dear Peter Goldsbury Sensei,

In the book Budo - Teachings of the Founder of Aikido, on page 60 (photo 80 and 81), O-Sensei is doing Gokyo. The osae is not demonstrated. In Saito Sensei's book Commentary on the 1938 Training Manual of Morihei Ueshiba, Saito Sensei writes: "The Founder said in Budo: Apply Ippo (ikkyo) to this technique. However, in his later years, he changed the technique grabbing his partner's wrist from below as shown above, and called it gokyo urawaza." Saito Sensei's point was that if you used the ikkyo grab when uke was holding a blade, then you wrist was open for a cut. Another point was, even if uke was using a wooden tanto, the weapon could be used to apply a counter-pin (much a in nikyo) to nage's wrist. In Saito Sensei' commentary the pin is not shown. I have written another post in this section regarding the two forms that Saito Sensei taught for the osae.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

David Humm
10-22-2006, 07:45 AM
Sorry Dave, yes, I was addressing your post. :)

I see 1-kyo to 6-kyo as principles rather than techniques. 5-kyo is a basic forearm stretch (ude no bashi), utilizing the elbow as the "base" and the flexion of the wrist as a lever against itself. There's a nice variation (a reverse gokyo lock) used as nikyo counter...Hi mate.. thanks for the clarification however, from a kihon point of view, no I'm not "doing" gokyo ude nobashi as you suggest, I am teaching as illustrated in my post, that's me making the pin on one of my students, the way gokyo was taught to me. The standing method as depicted in your post isn't something I've ever been taught formally in an aikido class (not to say it doesn't exist in aikido) but it's something I've taught to my students based upon my Prison Service training.

Fundamentally I don't see many of the osae waza as effective immobiliasations, yes they can induce (varying degrees of) control over uke's center but someone fully resisting may well be able to find their way out of these "pins".. I know because I've tried them in one form or another during my work and not all of them are ideal ways of fully restraining someone who really doesn't want to be restrained.

Getting back to gokyo, I too would like to know more about this application's history.

eyrie
10-22-2006, 08:32 AM
Hi mate.. thanks for the clarification however, from a kihon point of view, no I'm not "doing" gokyo ude nobashi as you suggest, I am teaching as illustrated in my post, that's me making the pin on one of my students, the way gokyo was taught to me. The standing method as depicted in your post isn't something I've ever been taught formally in an aikido class (not to say it doesn't exist in aikido) but it's something I've taught to my students based upon my Prison Service training.

Understood. As I said, I see the standard kihon as illustration of basic principles and as "seed" techniques. So, even though such things aren't formally taught in Aikido, generally, it is nonetheless a part of the osaekomi waza family.

I am of the opinion that Aikido is a principle-based martial art, rather than one based on a (limited) technical repertoire. Understanding the principle, therefore allows us to fully appreciate the limitless applications of technique. OTOH, technique-based arts, such as jujitsu, utilize variations of the same principles.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone use the rear hammerlock (ushiro ude garami), whilst transitioning from nikkyo/sankyo into the pin? I realise some may not know what I'm talking about, but it illustrates my point that sometimes, such things aren't explicitly or formally taught in class.


Fundamentally I don't see many of the osae waza as effective immobiliasations, yes they can induce (varying degrees of) control over uke's center but someone fully resisting may well be able to find their way out of these "pins".. I know because I've tried them in one form or another during my work and not all of them are ideal ways of fully restraining someone who really doesn't want to be restrained.

I generally agree. They are not particularly effective, as they are taught in Aikido generally, against a fully resistant uke - especially if they're not too concerned about dislocating something. But then the same can be said of small joint manipulation techniques generally....

OTOH, it *may* be possible to do so IF you pin the entire body through the structure like you would in kokyu-dosa...

YMMV

ChrisHein
10-22-2006, 11:56 AM
Ethan,
Thanx, some enlightening stuff there. My teacher was also one of Saito's students, and your first post Reminds me much of what he (my teacher) would say about gokyo.

What is very interesting to me is your second post, I really need to dig out my copy of budo, I would like to see the reference you're making, but what you're saying, seems to be very significant to me. If I understand you correctly you're saying that originally Saito called a palm up control ippo (Ikkyo) and later said it was called gokyo, is this because Saito decided that a palm up ikkyo should be called a different technique (because of knife techniques or what have you), or because in hind sight he realized his mistake in calling it ippo (ikkyo), because it was in fact ďgokyoĒ as his teacher had taught.

I know a rose is a rose, but what Iím trying to get at here is if Saito decided it was different enough, or if Ueshiba decided it was different enough to merit a different name.

Teo,
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that Aikido is a principal based system. In fact I agree quite strongly, and that's why I wanted to post this question. I personally feel like the criteria that makes up gokyo (as I know it) is not strong enough to merit another principal, so I feel that I may have a lack of understanding as to what gokyo really is. But from what I've read so far, maybe gokyo is more revisionist history then I thought.

Does the Daito Ryu syllabus have a gokyo as a separate named technique as we do? If so does anyone have any information about itís origins?

Thanks, anymore jewels out there?

-Chris

David Humm
10-22-2006, 12:29 PM
Does the Daito Ryu syllabus have a gokyo as a separate named technique as we do? If so does anyone have any information about it's origins?I'm about to stretch out of my depth a little here but; In my limited understanding of Dai-to Ryu ikkyo (meaning "first teaching") 一教 wasn't a single technique but, a series of about 118 waza within the shoden level, each technique having a particular responce to a particular attack. I doubt, and emphasis doubt that gokyo 五教 existed as a singular waza in Dai-to Ryu. If indeed gokyo did in fact exist, I would suggest it is probably another series of waza as apposed to just one.

I think this exposes a major difference between aikido and Dai-to Ryu, aikido has a limited amount of physical waza which are trained for and utilised in a multitude of situations, attacks, etc yet, Dai-to Ryu has many hundred specific waza, each meant for a particular situation or attack.

Whilst many fundamental principles exist between the two arts, aikido is as we know, by far the 'slimmed down' version in terms of waza which is probably why we have individual techniques named, ikkyo, nikyo and of course gokyo.

Regards

eyrie
10-22-2006, 07:59 PM
From what I understand, the first 118 techniques make up the hiden mokuroku, of which the first 30 in the set make up ikkajo - comprising 10 idori (suwari), 5 hanza handachi (hanmi hantachi), 10 tachiai (tachi), and 5 ushiro waza. Gokajo comprises of 6 jujitsu techniques in tachiai and 7 subgroups (whatever that means?). [Source: http://www.daito-ryu.com/en/pag4.htm]

Also, from the AJ interview with Katsuyuki Kondo:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=77

AJ - What are the main differences between Daito-ryu and aikido?

I don't think there is any difference. In Daito-ryu, too, practice begins and ends with courtesy (rei). And its final goal is the spirit of love and harmony.

AJ - How about technically?

I do not think that there is much difference technically, either. However, we have what we call ikkajo, which consists of thirty different techniques, ten of which are seated, five hanza handachi, ten standing techniques (tachiai) and five rear-attack techniques (ushirodori). Each of these thirty techniques has its own name. In Daito-ryu, the first technique you learn is called ippondori, a difficult technique where you receive, barehanded, the frontal attack of your opponent.

In the traditional martial arts, a secret technique is usually taught at the very beginning. In Daito-ryu, too, we teach a difficult technique first. This ippondori, I believe, has become ikkyo in aikido and also is related to techniques like shomenuchi ikkyo, katatedori ikkyo, ryotedori ikkyo, and so on. Ikkajo consists of t hirty techniques, but only the ippondori technique became ikkyo in aikido. There are twenty-nine other techniques such as gyaku udedori, kurumadaoshi, koshiguruma, and so on. Nikajo also has thirty techniques and only one of them is called nikyo in aikido. And the case is the same for sankyo. Yonkajo includes fifteen techniques and one of them is called yonkyo in aikido. Gokajo has thirteen techniques and one of them is gokyo in aikido. It includes tasudori (techniques against group attacks), tachidori (techniques against a sword), jodori, kasadori, emonodori (techniques against various weapons) and so on, all of which were practiced in the old days.

So we have 118 different techniques, classified as the ikkyo through gokyo series in Daito-ryu. These make up the hiden mokuroku and only five of those techniques were included in aikido. I would like this to be clear, to avoid any misunderstanding.

The difference between aikido and Daito-ryu in the eyes of the general public is that in techniques of Daito-ryu you must break the balance of your opponent the instant you touch him. This is because there is aiki in the technique, which we use to break the balance of the opponent. This is a major characteristic of Daito-ryu. Another characteristic is its use of atemi. This atemi is also a part of aiki in Daito-ryu. Although it is often said that Daito-ryu looks unrefined or is lacking in magnificence, Daito-ryu also has a component called aiki no jutsu (fifty-three techniques) and they are truly wonderful. The aiki no jutsu techniques come after the 118 hiden mokuroku, and they are followed by the hiden ogi, the hiogi, the kaishaku soden, and finally the kaiden techniques.

I think it would be unnecessarily limiting to view ikkyo-gokyo (or rokyo if you include it), as individual techniques as such. True they are an integral part of the kihon waza in most standard curriculums, but really they should be viewed as seed techniques for other applications.

The other unfortunate thing is that there is a tendency to play as you practise and I think that unconscious reliance on such "dojo" waza in an adrenaline fueled situation can prove to be "fatally enlightening". :dead:

Peter Goldsbury
10-22-2006, 08:08 PM
Dear Peter Goldsbury Sensei,

In the book Budo - Teachings of the Founder of Aikido, on page 60 (photo 80 and 81), O-Sensei is doing Gokyo. The osae is not demonstrated. In Saito Sensei's book Commentary on the 1938 Training Manual of Morihei Ueshiba, Saito Sensei writes: "The Founder said in Budo: Apply Ippo (ikkyo) to this technique. However, in his later years, he changed the technique grabbing his partner's wrist from below as shown above, and called it gokyo urawaza." Saito Sensei's point was that if you used the ikkyo grab when uke was holding a blade, then you wrist was open for a cut. Another point was, even if uke was using a wooden tanto, the weapon could be used to apply a counter-pin (much a in nikyo) to nage's wrist. In Saito Sensei' commentary the pin is not shown. I have written another post in this section regarding the two forms that Saito Sensei taught for the osae.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Mr Weisgard,

Yes, you are right. So this answers my earlier question. However, in my edition of Stanley Pranin's English translation, the waza is shown on p. 74-77. It appears on p.29 of the unpublished Japanese original and with a different photograph. Though the waza is 5-kyou, it is not named in the Japanese original. In the Japanese original, however, M Ueshiba clearly holds the attacking hand from below. As I stated, the waza does not appear in the early Japanese version of Aikido.

Best wishes,

odudog
10-23-2006, 10:28 AM
[QUOTE=Ignatius Teo]....

Also, from the AJ interview with Katsuyuki Kondo:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=77...QUOTE]

The part where Kondo Sensei states that Aikido only took 5 of Daito-Ryu techniques is incorrect in this interview. Maybe this could have been a translation mistake. I recently purchased the ikkajo DVDs made by Kondo Sensei and we practice the ippondori, kotegaeshi, and kurumadoashi at my dojo. Ippondori is ikkyo, kotegaeshi as practiced on this DVD is called ryotetori reverse kotegaeshi in my dojo and just performed just slightly different, and finally kurumadaoshi. When we asked my Sensei for the name of this technique the response we get is "I don't know". There are some more on the DVD that we practice as well but I don't remember off the top of my head which ones they are.

ChrisHein
10-23-2006, 01:07 PM
Some very interesting stuff thanks guys!

So does anyone know why in the Katate dori ikkyo form we take the gokyo grip (palm up), but it's still ok to call this ikkyo and not gokyo?

-Chris

Don_Modesto
10-23-2006, 02:37 PM
[QUOTE=Ignatius Teo]The part where Kondo Sensei states that Aikido only took 5 of Daito-Ryu techniques is incorrect in this interview.Yeah. I have trouble with this, too. DR names techniques according to different criteria than aikido. In fact, most of the DR kata are practiced in aikido, but, famously, in more free-flowing style.
What we in aikido would call IKKYO, e.g., will have several different names according, e.g., to the attack of the moment.

Ethan Weisgard
10-23-2006, 05:05 PM
Some very interesting stuff thanks guys!

So does anyone know why in the Katate dori ikkyo form we take the gokyo grip (palm up), but it's still ok to call this ikkyo and not gokyo?

-Chris

Dear Chris,

The Katate Dori Ikkyo grip is slightly different, because we are holding with control of the hand / thumb of uke. In Gokyo we still hold the wrist, but withour thumb closest to uke's hand. The Ikkyo grip form different grabs from uke is just a logical, effeicient way to grab and hold the opponents' hand. In the old forms (as shown in O-Sensei's Budo book) Gokyo is applied against Shomen Uchi. It is also done againt Yokomen Uchi, traditionally. In Saito Sensei's new book series "Takemusu Aiki" he demonstrates Gokyo from various attacks. I believe that this is to show that this technique can be applied in a variety of settings, but it i most evident as a seperate technique when done against Shomen or Yokomen uchi.

In Aiki,

Ethan

Ethan Weisgard
10-23-2006, 05:07 PM
Mr Weisgard,

Yes, you are right. So this answers my earlier question. However, in my edition of Stanley Pranin's English translation, the waza is shown on p. 74-77. It appears on p.29 of the unpublished Japanese original and with a different photograph. Though the waza is 5-kyou, it is not named in the Japanese original. In the Japanese original, however, M Ueshiba clearly holds the attacking hand from below. As I stated, the waza does not appear in the early Japanese version of Aikido.

Best wishes,


Dear Goldbury Sensei,

I am glad I could be of help.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Rupert Atkinson
10-23-2006, 11:10 PM
... so I suspect that 5-kyou, like kaiten-nage, was added to the repertoire of kihon waza by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

And then there is 6-kyou, which is a variation of 2-kyou, but where uke's arm is kept straight.

Best wishes to all,

Hi Peter,

I didn't know that fact about Kaiten-nage, but I can tell you that in 1989 my Yoshinkan teacher in Japan - a direct student of Shioda Sensei - told me there was no Kaiten-nage in Yoshinkan. I have since seen Yoshinkan people doing it ...

5-kyou: Consider this. Right handed attack comes. Avoid left and place your left hand on uke's wrist and you are setting up for kote-gaeshi. Avoid right and place your right hand on uke's wrist in the same way (mirror) and you are setting up for 5-kyou (amongst other thngs, of course). It is a mirror technique. If you remove 5-kyou it would be like taking away one side of a mirror. Does that answer "Gokyo-Why?" I wonder?

Also, your description of 6-kyou is Judo's wake-gatamte. I learned it in Tomiki, in the Institute of Aikido, in Kyushin-do, in Jujutsu, and in Judo. Everyone has it but Aikikai, although some do, calling it different names (rarely wake-gatame).

Peter Goldsbury
10-24-2006, 01:19 AM
Hi Peter,

I didn't know that fact about Kaiten-nage, but I can tell you that in 1989 my Yoshinkan teacher in Japan - a direct student of Shioda Sensei - told me there was no Kaiten-nage in Yoshinkan. I have since seen Yoshinkan people doing it ...

5-kyou: Consider this. Right handed attack comes. Avoid left and place your left hand on uke's wrist and you are setting up for kote-gaeshi. Avoid right and place your right hand on uke's wrist in the same way (mirror) and you are setting up for 5-kyou (amongst other thngs, of course). It is a mirror technique. If you remove 5-kyou it would be like taking away one side of a mirror. Does that answer "Gokyo-Why?" I wonder?

Also, your description of 6-kyou is Judo's wake-gatamte. I learned it in Tomiki, in the Institute of Aikido, in Kyushin-do, in Jujutsu, and in Judo. Everyone has it but Aikikai, although some do, calling it different names (rarely wake-gatame).

Hello Rupert,

I have never had a problem with the reason for 5-kyou, though you would be surprised at how many test candidates cannot tell the difference between 5-kyou and 1-kyou. I think that 5-kyou, like 1-kyou, is still fundamentally an elbow pin.

What interests me is the way that Kisshomaru Ueshiba distilled the wealth of waza in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938) into the kihon waza of his 1957 volume. If you look at this volume and also the books published by Koichi Tohei, you will see the evidence of the creation of a system based, not on how people attack, which was the main organizing theme of Budo Resnhu, but on the waza themselves.

I think that Kisshomaru had already decided that it would be impossible for people to replicate or duplicate the training process that he himself had gone through at the hands of his father and so he produced what he thought was the core. Saito Morihiro also did this with his Traditional Aikido volumes, but on a more ambitious scale, as did Shirata Rinjiro with a video that has never been published officially. Of course, neither has the original Japanese text of Budo.

So, I think that 5-kyou and 6-kyou and, to a lesser extent kaiten-nage, were not thought of as really core waza, at least initially.

Michael Varin
10-24-2006, 08:55 PM
This threadís got me thinking.

I hadnít carefully considered gokyo. I always accepted the Iwama explanation which is basically: the transition from atemi to controlling the wrist is quicker and the tanto canít be used to reverse the technique as easily. I was told that the grip differentiated gokyo from ikkyo. As far as the takedown is concerned, I donít think anyone here would argue that they are mechanically the same. I think too much is made of the reverse grip. Chris pointed out in an early post that there are ways to do nikyo that look very different, and that you can apply different pins to kote gaeshi and sankyo without it being called a separate technique.

Iím leaning toward what Ignatius eluded to earlier. Gokyo fundamentally is a different way to manipulate the arm/wrist/elbow. Ikkyo uses the elbow with its natural movement, nikyo over-rotates the radius with the hand directed back at the body (adduction), sankyo is an internal rotation of the forearm, yonkyo uses the ulnar or radial nerves, gokyo hyper-flexes the wrist -- palm towards elbow, and rokyo uses the elbow against its natural movement. This makes sense.

Although ďkyoĒ only means lesson or teaching, the first six techniques of aikido are often viewed as pins. Many refer to them as osae waza. I think this can create some serious distortions about their most effective applications. Increasingly, I view these techniques as ways to cause someone to let go of you or something they are holding, or to quickly change their direction away from you. Not as means to take someone to the ground and fully immobilize them (I donít rule this possibility out). This is more consistent with aikidoís relation to the sword and multiple opponents.

Great discussion.

Michael

Michael Varin
10-24-2006, 09:07 PM
Oh, I almost forgot.

I think sometimes we give the likes of Saito, Kisshomaru, and Shioda too much credit for their classifications. They certainly did some good things, but they weren't perfect.

Michael

Rupert Atkinson
10-24-2006, 09:24 PM
Hello Rupert,
What interests me is the way that Kisshomaru Ueshiba distilled the wealth of waza in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938) into the kihon waza of his 1957 volume. If you look at this volume and also the books published by Koichi Tohei, you will see the evidence of the creation of a system based, not on how people attack, which was the main organizing theme of Budo Resnhu, but on the waza themselves.


My old Kyushin-do teacher was critical of 'Traditional' Aikido for 'not naming the attack. His main point was that in basic training you should name the attack (shomen-uchi), not the technique (ikkyo), and certainly not both (shomen-uchi ikkyo). For myself, I suggest that a training system ought follow a logical approach:

1 name the attack and technique (easy)
2 name the attack (harder)
3 name neither (harder still)

Of course, many do this. The problem is, there is often no system to it. Aikido still really needs a 'method' ... in many places the system is just too random - rather, there is no system. And if there is a system, who is there to validate it?

ChrisHein
10-25-2006, 12:54 AM
Mr. Goldsbury,

"though you would be surprised at how many test candidates cannot tell the difference between 5-kyou and 1-kyou. I think that 5-kyou, like 1-kyou, is still fundamentally an elbow pin."

What exactly is it that you mean by this statement? What is it that makes it so hard for test candidates to understand the difference between ikkyo and gokyo? Do you mean they don't make the correct grip, or they try and use omote takedowns, or they use the wrong finishing control? Is it something other then these 3 things? If it's not one of these 3 things then I to have a hard time differentiating gokyo from Ikkyo, and I would like to be enlightened as to the difference's. Also what do you mean by saying it's fundamentally an elbow "pin". I would call a pin something that holds someone to a fixed point, and I would feel that gokyo doesn't actually do this at all.

Thank you
-Chris Hein

Ian Upstone
10-25-2006, 05:56 AM
Interesting thread!

I'm also intrigued about gokyo as it's not one we cover very often, and I'd like to know if any/all of these conclusions I've just come to are incorrect or need reclarifying...

#1. Gokyo seems to rest entirely upon gripping ukes wrist with nages thumb nearest the hand, without this, we're pretty much doing ikkyo.

#2. Because of #1, gokyo is only available where uke's attack is non-gripping (i.e. can only be applied on strikes, with and without a tanto, and perhaps the 'dori' attacks that have yet to get a grip on nage (which are pretty much a tsuki at that point anyway) - which in turn reinforces the tanto aspect of the technique.

#3. If uke does get a grip, nage would now grasp the back of uke's hand rather than grasp below the wrist, (not that you would at this point!) i.e. gokyo is pretty much redundant if uke gets a grip - which again, ties in with the tanto aspect.

#4. Techniques such shomenuchi gokyo omote are not possible, as nage needs to reach ukes wrist from the offset, (and, assuming nage is entering as uke raises their arm for the shomenuchi, the wrist we are going for is out of reach for those of us without an orangutanesque reach)

Charles Hill
10-25-2006, 05:59 AM
Personally, I have come to the conclusion that the way the gokyo pin is usually done is wrong. Anyone with a bit of strength is going to be able to resist the elbow bend. For me, it makes more sense to consider putting pressure on uke's thumb to take away the knife to be the first/basic move. This might likely be resisted by uke trying to pull his arm in. Using this resistence, one could then do the trad. gokyo pin without forcing it.

Also, Shirata Sensei had a very different version of gokyo, shown in the book The Way of Harmony. Shirata Sensei's system, taught to me by John Stevens Sensei consists of series of techniques, similar to the Daito ryu system described above. For example, katadori nikyo was not a singular technique, rather a series of 10 different variations.

Charles

David Humm
10-25-2006, 06:21 AM
From an physical application point of view; I've applied this particular waza during training on co-operative uke and obviously had no problems, I've also disarmed a prisoner who was fully resisting and again, had no problems achieving the bend in elbow and wrist however; to get to that point I needed to use a reasonable atemi with my own elbow in to and between the prisoner's own shoulder blades, this had a very effective result of making him flinch and relax his resistance to the technique, once the elbow was raised and the wrist brought directly underneath (beyond a right-angle toward the shoulder) he instantly released the knife, and suffered minor tissue damage to the tendons and muscles of the wrist and forearm, not to mention a painful upper back. :confused:

For the classical application of gokyo ude nobashi, i keep uke's arm straight (as in ikkyo ude osae) however my leading hand is reversed (as previously described) with my thumb close to uke's wrist (roughly where the pulse would be). From a practical point of view, I'm not at all concerned how I get to the end result providing I'm safe and most importantly, not cut too badly.

Regards

ChrisHein
10-25-2006, 01:16 PM
Charles,
While I would totally agree with you, that if Uke knew it were comming it would be very difficult to bend his arm, if it came when he wasen't exspecting it, or if used in conjunction with an atemi as Dave suggests it has validity. Ikkyo, Nikkyo, and Sankyo will all find difficulting in "working" if uke can gear up to resist them, however they are still valid because of the "when" they are applyed and not nessisarily the "how" they are applied. Putting pressure on the thumb would deffinatly change the technique I was taught was gokyo.

-Chris

odudog
10-26-2006, 01:27 PM
....#4. Techniques such shomenuchi gokyo omote are not possible, as nage needs to reach ukes wrist from the offset, (and, assuming nage is entering as uke raises their arm for the shomenuchi, the wrist we are going for is out of reach for those of us without an orangutanesque reach)

Shomenuchi gokkyo is possible, if however, you can't reach the wrist when doing okuri ashi then you need to either wait for the hand to come down further so the wrist is then possible to be grabbed or do a different entry such as tenkan which will make the wrist possible to grab. If two of my Senseis can do it an they are both short, then the technique is possible. Plus, O'Sensei was even way shorter than my two instructors.

Peter Goldsbury
10-27-2006, 09:34 AM
Hello Chris,

I will try to answer your questions, but in some cases, I really do not know the answer.

Mr. Goldsbury,

"though you would be surprised at how many test candidates cannot tell the difference between 5-kyou and 1-kyou. I think that 5-kyou, like 1-kyou, is still fundamentally an elbow pin."

What exactly is it that you mean by this statement? What is it that makes it so hard for test candidates to understand the difference between ikkyo and gokyo?

Basically, I mean that in dan examinations when candidates are asked to execute Shoumen/Yokomen uchi 5-kyou in knife attacks, they respond with 1-kyou. I have no idea why they cannot tell the difference.

Do you mean they don't make the correct grip, or they try and use omote takedowns, or they use the wrong finishing control? Is it something other then these 3 things? If it's not one of these 3 things then I to have a hard time differentiating gokyo from Ikkyo, and I would like to be enlightened as to the difference's.
PAG. If you can do 5-kyou ura, then you can certainly do 5-kyou omote, whether from Shoumen or yokomen uchi. The usual problem is that the grip on the wrist is applied far too early and is an 1-kyou grip.

Also what do you mean by saying it's fundamentally an elbow "pin". I would call a pin something that holds someone to a fixed point, and I would feel that gokyo doesn't actually do this at all..
PAG. Well, I think the locus of 1-kyou is the elbow, but many people focus on the upper arm, between the elbow and the shoulder, or on the wrist. In consequence, if the elbow is properly 'pinned' during the waza, the pinning of the wrist can easily vary (between 1-kyou or 5-kyou, and also including 2, 3, and 4-kyou).

Thank you
-Chris Hein[/QUOTE]

Best wishes,

Ron Tisdale
10-27-2006, 10:15 AM
Hi Peter,

When you perform gokyo from shomenuchi, do you do the beginning of ikkyo first, then take gokyo grip? Kind of like many versions of nikkyo, or sankyo? I always find it easier to off-balance using ikkyo, then maintain the off-balance while I take the proper control, then complete the waza.

For example, sankyo omote, kihon...
Enter, control elbow and wrist,
open step / body change while cutting down,
shuffle, flip the wrist while controling the fingers,
assume control with hand close to uke, control elbow with hand that was controling fingers,
cross step in for the pin, using uke's palm against your hip.

This means that I don't have to reach for the control with tall uke, and uke is bent over and very off-balance during any "grip changes". Of course, most controls can be done "cutting" as opposed to gripping, but then we are not talking "kihon"...

Best,
Ron

David Humm
10-27-2006, 11:46 AM
...When you perform gokyo from shomenuchi, do you do the beginning of ikkyo first, then take gokyo grip? This is how I've always achieved gokyo, by using ikkyo as the principle for opening up other waza.

Regards

Rupert Atkinson
10-27-2006, 02:16 PM
I do it two ways:

1. Start as standard ikkyo and change your way towards gokyo. Deal more with the elbow during ikkyo and don't catch the wrist until gokyo 'reveals' itself. Of course, if you find yourself catching the wrist as ikkyo,then just do ikkyo - it makes no sense to change.
2. Avoid a right handed strike to the inside by moving ot the right and take uke's lowered arm with your own right, palm down. As uke raises up after the strike, start gokyo.
2b. Or, non-standard - as you avoid to the right, cut uke's arm down with your own tegatana, then strike to the face quickly, and as he raises to protect himeself, take gokyo - I like this one best as it is more practical - the technique creates itself - it works for me anyway.

Peter Goldsbury
10-28-2006, 08:29 AM
Hi Peter,

When you perform gokyo from shomenuchi, do you do the beginning of ikkyo first, then take gokyo grip? Kind of like many versions of nikkyo, or sankyo? I always find it easier to off-balance using ikkyo, then maintain the off-balance while I take the proper control, then complete the waza.

Best,
Ron

Yes. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is the base for this family of katame-waza (but 5-kyou and 6-kyou are really extensions of 1-kyou and 2-kyou, respectively).

Best,

PAG

Rocky Izumi
11-25-2006, 09:50 AM
Yes. I have always been taught that 1-kyou is the base for this family of katame-waza (but 5-kyou and 6-kyou are really extensions of 1-kyou and 2-kyou, respectively).

Best,

PAG

Or is 2-kyou an extension of 6-kyou?

Rock

Peter Goldsbury
11-26-2006, 01:03 AM
Or is 2-kyou an extension of 6-kyou?

Rock

Hello Rocky,

Well, it wasn't for Morihei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba when the book Aikido was first published in 1957. There 1, 2, 3 and 4-kyou are all described. There is no mention of 5-kyou or 6-kyou. So, if they were practised at all--and there is evidence from the 1938 Budo volume that 5-kyou was practised, they were not considered to be core kihon waza.

Best,

PAG

Rocky Izumi
11-26-2006, 06:18 PM
Hello Rocky,

Well, it wasn't for Morihei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba when the book Aikido was first published in 1957. There 1, 2, 3 and 4-kyou are all described. There is no mention of 5-kyou or 6-kyou. So, if they were practised at all--and there is evidence from the 1938 Budo volume that 5-kyou was practised, they were not considered to be core kihon waza.

Best,

PAG
Hey Peter,

I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Kihon Waza but rather in mechanical terms.

Rock