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12-22-2005, 05:30 PM
Discuss the article, "The Elusive Aiki" by Lynn Seiser here.
Article URL: http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/lseiser/2005_12.html
"However, every so often when I am having a good time, training with honest and genuine intent and intensity, lost in what I am doing, I believe that I see a little glimpse of the elusive Aiki."
Beautifully said, Sempai. In this respect, Aikido reminds me of golf. No matter how poorly a person plays on a given day at the links, there's usually at least one near-perfect moment when the club face strikes the ball almost exactly as the golfer intended. The great shot that follows is sometimes called, "the one that keeps you coming back." The feeling a shot like that gives me is quite similar to the feeling I believe you're describing when you "see [feel] a little glimpse of the elusive Aiki."
The healthy-addictive nature of both Aikido and golf probably stems from something I've discovered in both: the more I practice in either art, the more of those precious moments I earn. Neither golf nor Aikido can ever be won. Some of O'Sensei's final words were, "[I am but a baby in the martial arts]" and even if a golfer gets a hole-in-one on every par 3, an eagle on every par 4, and a double-eagle on every par 5, the course could've been harder, nature (the elements such as wind/rain/snow/temperature could've been fiercer), and his/her playing partners could've been more distracting. Even in *true* win/lose sports, intangibles affect who *wins*.
Drew
SeiserL
01-09-2007, 08:32 AM
"the one that keeps you coming back."
That would be the one.
As Jackie Gleason would say, "How sweet it is."
BTW, I never experienced it in golf. There was always something about those windmills and clown faces that just scared me too much. ;-)
It is the hunt, the journey, for the elusive that makes it so enjoyable. And the people you meet along the way.
eyrie
01-09-2007, 06:32 PM
Ai 合 is NOT harmony... ai means combine, unite, join; gather...
Harmony is wa 和... and 和氣 (adj) means politeness or friendly... ;)
Aiki specifically means to join (with another's) force and connotates "cooperation" or a cooperative/joint effort.
As far as it being elusive, that's more likely due to lack of understanding and/or being explicitly taught....of what aiki is and how to specifically develop it...
BTW, I never experienced it in golf. There was always something about those windmills and clown faces that just scared me too much. ;-)
That gave me a much needed laugh! It's also funny how kids tend to love clowns while adults tend to be terrified of them. If you ever decide to get into real golf, know that it's a money pit but has been well worth it to me. As far as getting to know people, that's another essential similarity between Aikido and golf. You can get to know someone much better on the mat or on the course than you could in many other environments.
Drew
Takumi
01-10-2007, 06:57 AM
Ai 合 is NOT harmony... ai means combine, unite, join; gather...
Harmony is wa 和... and 和氣 (adj) means politeness or friendly... ;)
Aiki specifically means to join (with another's) force and connotates "cooperation" or a cooperative/joint effort.
As far as it being elusive, that's more likely due to lack of understanding and/or being explicitly taught....of what aiki is and how to specifically develop it...
What do you define as harmony? If you define it as politeness and friendly and getting along with people, then i agree with you.... But in Aikido, I think ( :ai: ) Ai is harmony, but it means something else. The harmony in Aikido is the joining between nage and uke and the cooperation between the two. To me, that is more harmonious than any other definition.
SeiserL
01-10-2007, 08:27 AM
As far as it being elusive, that's more likely due to lack of understanding and/or being explicitly taught....of what aiki is and how to specifically develop it...
I humbly bow and look forward to learning more from you.
eyrie
01-10-2007, 05:28 PM
What do you define as harmony? If you define it as politeness and friendly and getting along with people, then i agree with you.... But in Aikido, I think ( :ai: ) Ai is harmony, but it means something else. The harmony in Aikido is the joining between nage and uke and the cooperation between the two. To me, that is more harmonious than any other definition.
It's not my definition... 和 is harmony and means something completely different to 合 which is to unite. Harmony of 氣 is very different to Union of 氣... hmmm... like "love" ;) :P
You can cooperate with someone, but it need not necessarily be harmonious. For example, 合唱 is to sing together (as in a chorus), but unless everyone is "in unison", it could hardly be called "harmonious". ;)
合氣 literally means to join (with another's) 氣 - or rather loosely, to coordinate or join forces, or to be (spiritually) connected. It is not synergy, although synergy may be a result of such connection. It is not an attitude, but without the right attitude, there can be no aiki.
It is not a belief, but without the belief that we are all connected in some way, there is no aiki. It is certainly not a Zen koan, but enlightenment may open your eyes to the Great Path of aiki... ;)
A subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless... if you catch my drift...
SeiserL
01-11-2007, 08:04 AM
enlightenment may open your eyes to the Great Path of aiki...
Please make sure you contact the Ueshiba family and inform them of their less than enlightened definition.
Josh Reyer
01-11-2007, 08:07 AM
It's not my definition... 和 is harmony and means something completely different to 合 which is to unite. Harmony of 氣 is very different to Union of 氣... hmmm... like "love" ;) :P
You can cooperate with someone, but it need not necessarily be harmonious. For example, 合唱 is to sing together (as in a chorus), but unless everyone is "in unison", it could hardly be called "harmonious". ;)Indeed. I think of the term "tachi-ai" (standing together) which is an unharmonious crashing together of two sumo wrestlers at the beginning of a match. Or "ii-ai" (speaking together), which is an argument. "Oshi-ai, heshi-ai" an unharmonious shoving and jostling mob melee.
I don't have years of experience in aikido, and certainly no ability in "ki" or "aiki", but from a linguistic standpoint "ai" as "harmony" doesn't quite gel with my sense of the language.合氣 literally means to join (with another's) 氣 - or rather loosely, to coordinate or join forces, or to be (spiritually) connected. It is not synergy, although synergy may be a result of such connection. It is not an attitude, but without the right attitude, there can be no aiki.
It is not a belief, but without the belief that we are all connected in some way, there is no aiki. It is certainly not a Zen koan, but enlightenment may open your eyes to the Great Path of aiki... ;)
A subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless... if you catch my drift...In his book Budo, Ueshiba makes an interesting statement:If you learn to control the universal elements within the human heart, you can respond according to the principles of water and fire, yin and yang, when an enemy attacks. If he comes with ki, strike with ki; if comes with water, strike with water; if he comes with fire, strike with fire.That kind of idea (meet ki with ki, fire with fire, water with water) seems antithetical to most of the surface philosophy I've been exposed to in aikido, particularly in the States, although I imagine to many advanced practitioners the above makes some practical sense from the perspective of many years. But, again from my linguistic perspective, that is exactly the kind of image suggested by the term "aiki". Not a harmonious blending, but proactive matching of forces.
George S. Ledyard
01-11-2007, 09:22 AM
That gave me a much needed laugh! It's also funny how kids tend to love clowns while adults tend to be terrified of them. If you ever decide to get into real golf, know that it's a money pit but has been well worth it to me. As far as getting to know people, that's another essential similarity between Aikido and golf. You can get to know someone much better on the mat or on the course than you could in many other environments.
Drew
As far as I'm concerned, Golf is just a really expensive Western form of Kyudo and it's not as convenient.
George S. Ledyard
01-11-2007, 10:06 AM
Hi Lynn,
I liked your article but I have to say that, in this regard I come down more on the side of the Mike Sigmans out there. Most of us have been left to figure things out on our own. Very few people doing Aikido have much, if any, idea about what they are trying to do. They see their teachers year after year, marvel at the incredible skill these teachers have, and then proceed to practice in a way that will NEVER result in the same type of skill.
Aikido has become (maybe it always was) an incredibly elitist enterprize. There is a huge pyramid of folks practicing yet only a small group at the very top of the pyramid are actually doing Aikido with any understanding of Aiki.
I have trained with people like Ushiro Sensei, Kuroda Sensei, Angier Sensei, Toby Threadgill Sensei etc and have experienced the benefits of an organized and lucid teaching methodology. It was my experience training with these non-Aikido teachers which took my own Aikido up to the point at which, although I am certainly not as proficient as my own teachers, my technique is now working for the sam reasons that theirs does. I understand now what I am shooting for and simply have to keep refining things. I absolutely believe that I could have gotten to this point many years, if not decades earlier if the Aikido teaching methodology was better developed.
This whole "steal the technique" thing we have in Aikido makes me crazy. I have trained in various koryu and am familiar with the training of more than I have done myself. Things are not made purposely obscure in these arts. They have an organized, step by step teaching methodology. You don't go to the next step until you have mastered the previous steps. Teachers are not purposely obscure but actually explain what is going on. I realize that one great advantage these art have is that very few people do them. So the transmission is VERY personal.
But we have inherited an art that has been allowed and even encouraged to grow to vast numbers. I think it is the responsibility of the senior practitioners to develop a systematic analysis of what constitutes the highest level of Aikido skill and to find ways of imparting that knowledge to the wider community. I teach all over the country and I see people hungry for direction in their training, The vast majority of people out there have never trained under a Shihan level instructor for any length of time. Most have never even taken ukemi from someone like that more than a few times in their whole careers.
There are thousands of practitioners out there, putting in tens of thousands of hours and many thousands of dollars into their traning and they are being short changed. Now one cares whether they get it or not. They are left to flounder around and when, occasionally, one of them rises to some level of skill despite the lack of effective teaching methodology, then he or she is admitted to the elite club of folks that the people at the very top of the pyramid constitute. It is the function of the mass of practitioners to support the folks at the very top of the pyramid; noone worries whether these folks "get it", in fact it's pretty much assumed that most will not.
This stuff is teachable. Period. Now it is a fact that, no single person I know has mastered all of the elements that would constitute what O-Sensei had for skill. But collectively, I think that information is out there. There are folks who do have the various pieces. But what is needed is for these folks to a) organize what they know into a step by step process for passing on that knowledge to others and b) to give access to the wider Aikido community. Then the very top Aikido instructors need to pull these elements together in a coherent way. We all need to be training with each other, getting the widest possible exposure. This currently doesn't happen. Stan Pranin can bring some of the finest practitioners of Aiki in the world to an Expo and whole segments of main stream American Aikido simply chose not to participate. That attitude is the death of Aikido's future if it continues.
We have camps and seminars coming out our ears in Aikido. But what I see is most folks attending these events and coming away at the end with nothing more than the knowledge that the teacher is more skilled than they are (which they probabaly knew going in). They do not leave the seminar with any kind of idea of how to direct their training that the next year they will be any closer to understanding what the teacher was doing. This is just plain wrong as far as I am concerened.
Much of what passes for "teaching" in Aikido is really just a form of performance art. It isn't teaching at all. I think this is wrong and it borders on being unethical. As professional instructors we ask people to pay us substantial amounts of money, give us their precious spare time, etc and then we turn around and do nothing more than show them how cool we are for a weekend. That is unacceptable and I think that the students of Aikido need to start demanding more from their teachers. If you don't walk away from a seminar with some concrete things to wrk on, don't train with that teacher again and find someone who can TEACH. If you attend an event in which the teacher demonstrates and then sits on the side and watches the clock until the next technique, do not train with that person again. Demand something better. If you don't feel that you have gained something tangible EVERY time you train with someone, find someone better to train with.
You might have a limited access to dojos at which you can train. Ok, you're stuck with what's available unless you are willing to move. But the folks your dojo brings in for seminars, the folks you choose to travel to train with are under your control. Support the teachers you get the juice from and do not support the ones who can't or won't pass on what they do.
It is not necessary that most Aikido folks are doing Aikido-lite while the "real" stuff is going to the elite folks at the top. It is possible for everyone training to do Aikido using the same principles which the senior teachers do. They might not get as proficient, people will always make verying degrees of commitment to their training, but they will all be working on the same set of skills. This isn't even close to being the case at this point.
Mark Murray
01-11-2007, 12:05 PM
That was a good post.
I guess one of my questions is,
Have you found a teaching methodology yourself? (Please don't view that the wrong way. It's a genuine question because I really don't have a clue as to how one could build something like that)
If so, is it something that you can teach other teachers to use? And would a seminar be enough time?
As for the Expos. They were all West Coast. I never did understand that reasoning. If you're going to bring together that many great teachers, why not locate it centrally where everyone can reach it? If you want to reach the people, you have to be reachable. :) There are a lot of Aikido people out there who can't afford to fly to California but could carpool to say St. Louis. Or have one on each coast rather than all three on one coast.
George S. Ledyard
01-11-2007, 03:54 PM
That was a good post.
I guess one of my questions is,
Have you found a teaching methodology yourself? (Please don't view that the wrong way. It's a genuine question because I really don't have a clue as to how one could build something like that)
If so, is it something that you can teach other teachers to use? And would a seminar be enough time?
As for the Expos. They were all West Coast. I never did understand that reasoning. If you're going to bring together that many great teachers, why not locate it centrally where everyone can reach it? If you want to reach the people, you have to be reachable. :) There are a lot of Aikido people out there who can't afford to fly to California but could carpool to say St. Louis. Or have one on each coast rather than all three on one coast.
To the extent that I understand some element, I can teach it. Of course, you can have something explained, even be able to experience some success on exercises that demonstrate a given principle, and you still have years of on the mat time to be able to actualize that understanding naturally throughout your technique. But at least at that point you are aware of exactly what your are shooting for and if you don't get it you have a good idea what you need to be working on to get there.
George S. Ledyard
01-11-2007, 04:28 PM
As for the Expos. They were all West Coast. I never did understand that reasoning. If you're going to bring together that many great teachers, why not locate it centrally where everyone can reach it? If you want to reach the people, you have to be reachable. :) There are a lot of Aikido people out there who can't afford to fly to California but could carpool to say St. Louis. Or have one on each coast rather than all three on one coast.
People have managed to get to Las Vegas by the millions for their vacations, gambling, and the showgirls... I suspect that folks who really wanted to do so for the training could have done so.
As far as LA went, California has more people doing Aikido than just about anywhere else. Stan had local assistance from folks in the community putting that on.
I regularly travel across the US to attend Aikido Camps and have done so for many years. I live in Seattle. Everything major in Aikido, aside from Mary Heiny, requires substantial travel. My own teacher is on the opposite Coast and getting there is not optional. I get a bit impatient with people who claim that the reason that they didn't go was because it wasn't convenient for them.
Stan Pranin lives in Las Vegas. The events, which took him pretty much full time work for a year to put on and which didn't make any where near enough money to justify the time and effort he put in, were where he could more easily put them together. The folks who purposely ignored the events for political reasons are largely located on the East Coast so trying to be closer to them wouldn't have improved things I suspect. Anyway, I know that Stan was considering a centrally located venue for the future but folks didn't support the concept so now there won't be any more Expos. The folks who were waitin gfor the event to come to them will now be waiting for Godot.
People take training way to much for granted. I date from a time when access to high level teachers was VERY limited. I was unusually fortunate to be able to stumble onto Saotome Sensei in Washington, DC. But the exposure I've had to teachers of that same level has often required substantial effort on my part. Now everyone thinks that events should be convenient for them to go.
People had the chance to train with the most amazing line-up of instructors to ever appear in the states and they chose not to go. Now, training with many of those folks will either require a journey to Japan (just a bit less convenient than the West Coast I'd say) or attending a series of events in the US that may take years and years and far more expense before you'd come close to covering that roster.
When you are serious about your training you find a way to get to the training you need. If you run a dojo you can pay a lot of money to host a high level teacher and hope that the event pays for most of the expense. If you can't do that then you are limited to traveling to get to see folks. We have such a surfeit of Aikido teachers traveling these days that we come to think these things will simply appear on our doorstep. But there are fantastic teachers out there like Kondo Sensei, Okomoto Sensei, Endo Sensei, Kato Sensei, etc who come to the states to only limited locations; perhaps only one or two. Teachers like Angier Sensei get out very little at all these days. If you have the opportunity to train with one of these people, then you find a way to swing it. To have the opportunity to have trained with an entire array of people at this level, all in one place at one time and to have chosen not to... well, I just don't get it. That's why God created plastic... For most people there is always some way to swing it. Very few people are truely unable to find a way to get to something like that if they REALLY want to.
SeiserL
01-11-2007, 06:44 PM
This stuff is teachable. Period.
Osu Sensei,
Totally agree.
This stuff is explain-able and understand-able.
This stuff is teach-able and learn-able.
IMHO, the "magic" is in learning the "craft" before you try to execute the "art".
I also agree that the training is out there, but you have to seek it out and go to it, rather than passively sitting back and thinking it will just come to you. But I think that about everything.
jeff.
01-11-2007, 07:51 PM
People have managed to get to Las Vegas by the millions for their vacations, gambling, and the showgirls... I suspect that folks who really wanted to do so for the training could have done so.
sensei
while i appreciate some of what you said in this post, the simple fact is that many people don't get to las vegas. we can't afford it. my travel for the last several years has been completely dependent on being in a touring band, which itself leaves little room for anything other than traveling to and play shows.
the limit to my ability to travel is about 8-10 hours driving. i can't afford to fly. and i can't afford the time to ride the greyhound. i wouldn't even be able to afford to train regularly if it wasn't for the fact that my dojo fees are $40/month (which i sometimes can not afford... luckily, my sensei is very understanding).
so, aikido as an elitist enterprise also comes down to cost. those of us living on little better than minimum wage (or less) simply can not afford to travel in the ways you suggest. if something on the level of an aiki expo was coming close by, i would scrape and save for it. but it would have to be within my 8-10 hours, or even that would be to no avail.
yet i am very serious. i did the scraping and saving thing last year, and was able to spend nine weeks as an uchideshi. but even then i had to hold down a part-time construction job nearby in order to afford to eat. and still ended up owing the dojo i lived in money after i left! (another understanding sensei!)
so please understand that an inability to make it to las vegas or los angeles is not necessarily the result of a lack of (burning) desire, but a simple lack of funds. given the fundamental economic nature of the world we live in.
with sincerity
jeff.
SeiserL
01-11-2007, 08:40 PM
so please understand that an inability to make it to las vegas or los angeles is not necessarily the result of a lack of (burning) desire, but a simple lack of funds. given the fundamental economic nature of the world we live in.
It certainly does not sound, from your disclosure, that Sensei Ledyard was referring to you. Compliments for your efforts.
IMHO, the point being made was that too many people are relatively passive in their pursuit, feeling entitled to have it given or brought to them on a hobbyist level, rather than actively seeking it out. Which is why the "steal this technique" doesn't work in our society. We need to find a way to teach the content and concepts in a way that will afford more people the ability to learn. Raising the level of both the teaching and the student understanding, application, and execution.
My point being that Aiki is elusive mostly because of how we pursue it.
George S. Ledyard
01-11-2007, 09:19 PM
so, aikido as an elitist enterprise also comes down to cost. those of us living on little better than minimum wage (or less) simply can not afford to travel in the ways you suggest. if something on the level of an aiki expo was coming close by, i would scrape and save for it. but it would have to be within my 8-10 hours, or even that would be to no avail.
yet i am very serious. i did the scraping and saving thing last year, and was able to spend nine weeks as an uchideshi. but even then i had to hold down a part-time construction job nearby in order to afford to eat. and still ended up owing the dojo i lived in money after i left! (another understanding sensei!)
so please understand that an inability to make it to las vegas or los angeles is not necessarily the result of a lack of (burning) desire, but a simple lack of funds. given the fundamental economic nature of the world we live in.
I get it... I wasn't really talking specifically to you but more generally. There have been years when i couldn't go to camp as my teacher expected because I didn't have the money. I have been teaching for twenty years and I have been in debt for the majority of that time. I told my son, who is in college, tha he would have to find a way to pay for it because I essentially used his college money to prefect my art. So I get the money thing.
You notice that, if you want it badly enough, teachers can be very understanding. Obviously you want it badly and are doing what you can. There will always be people there to help if you do want it that badly.
Everything is elitist these days... Folks now have the ability to live quite well as professional musicians but because of that I can't afford to attend most concerts I have many friends in body work and alternative health care but poor people can't afford those services so their clients are all well off folks. Instruction is available in almost every art one can imagine but those instructors have to live which puts their instruction out of range for most folks.
Aikido is no different. It costs a vast amount, and I am not just talking about money here, to really take this art to a higher level. I am devoted to making it easier for most folks to do that. But there simply is no substitute for time in and consistent exposure to great instruction. For most folks that entails a lot of expense over time. People have consistently been there for me when I couldn't afford to attend some event or other. I cannot tell you how thankful I am for the help I have received over the years. Even with the support you will find, you will still put everything you have into it. It just depends on how much you want it.
Anyway, the Expo thing only upsets because of the little minded political BS that went down. Teachers too insecure to encourage their students to see people who might be better than they are. So they held their people back. I have no patience for that. Period. Not going because of the money I do get...
raul rodrigo
01-11-2007, 09:28 PM
Anyway, the Expo thing only upsets because of the little minded political BS that went down. Teachers too insecure to encourage their students to see people who might be better than they are. So they held their people back. I have no patience for that. Period. Not going because of the money I do get...
SENSEI:
You know this for a fact? That some US shihan held their people back?
best,
RAUL
Mike Sigman
01-11-2007, 10:05 PM
,
I liked your article but I have to say that, in this regard I come down more on the side of the Mike Sigmans out there. Most of us have been left to figure things out on our own. Very few people doing Aikido have much, if any, idea about what they are trying to do. Well, there's my entre' that I was looking for to say just this, even though it's not particularly related: George, one of the most difficult things to accept is that not everyone has the same fervor for the same goals that we may have. You're only going to be speaking, at best, to a few people if you're devotedly interested in the acme of an art. The "surfeit" of teachers and students is misleading.
All the Best.
Mike
raul rodrigo
01-12-2007, 09:13 AM
SENSEI:
You know this for a fact? That some US shihan held their people back?
I don't mean to imply that I doubt your word. I only wanted to gauge the level of certainty behind that statement. I don't even need to know how you know it. Sorry if that earlier post gave offense.
best,
RAUL
Mark Murray
01-12-2007, 12:03 PM
I get it... I wasn't really talking specifically to you but more generally. There have been years when i couldn't go to camp as my teacher expected because I didn't have the money. I have been teaching for twenty years and I have been in debt for the majority of that time. I told my son, who is in college, tha he would have to find a way to pay for it because I essentially used his college money to prefect my art. So I get the money thing.
You notice that, if you want it badly enough, teachers can be very understanding. Obviously you want it badly and are doing what you can. There will always be people there to help if you do want it that badly.
Everything is elitist these days... Folks now have the ability to live quite well as professional musicians but because of that I can't afford to attend most concerts I have many friends in body work and alternative health care but poor people can't afford those services so their clients are all well off folks. Instruction is available in almost every art one can imagine but those instructors have to live which puts their instruction out of range for most folks.
Aikido is no different. It costs a vast amount, and I am not just talking about money here, to really take this art to a higher level. I am devoted to making it easier for most folks to do that. But there simply is no substitute for time in and consistent exposure to great instruction. For most folks that entails a lot of expense over time. People have consistently been there for me when I couldn't afford to attend some event or other. I cannot tell you how thankful I am for the help I have received over the years. Even with the support you will find, you will still put everything you have into it. It just depends on how much you want it.
Anyway, the Expo thing only upsets because of the little minded political BS that went down. Teachers too insecure to encourage their students to see people who might be better than they are. So they held their people back. I have no patience for that. Period. Not going because of the money I do get...
I was definitely in the same camp as Jeff when the Expos were going on. Lack of money. However, if they had been as close as St. Louis, I'm sure a few of us could have car pooled, shared hotel room, and expenses to make it. Vegas and California were too far and too expensive to make. If it wasn't for a very understanding sensei, I would have gone without learning.
I do agree with you on the political BS.
And it is too bad that we won't have another Expo.
Thank you for replying with more details and answers.
Mark
All I want to say right now publicly is that I recently witnessed Ledyard Sensei in person at the ASU Winter Intensive, and both his teaching ability and training skills were incredible. I was reminded of the John Michael Montgomery lyrics, "Life's a dance you learn as you go / Sometimes you lead sometimes you follow..." We all have egos to defend ourselves from each other's egos...big Catch-22...but if we can *cut* through as much selfishness and fear as possible, we can truly know when to be the teacher and when to be the student. As babies we knew how to do this, yet as adults we find it so difficult! We doubt each other so much here on Aikiweb. I always liked what Ledyard Sensei had to say on here, but was unsure if he had *earned* the right to say it (with boldness). Now I have no doubt.
Drew
Mark Murray
01-12-2007, 07:41 PM
Hi Drew,
I don't think anyone was doubting Ledyard sensei. Quite the opposite for me. I value his opinion and wondered if he had yet found a way to teach in an organized manner. And I haven't met him yet. :) Although I'm hoping to make one of his seminars this year.
raul rodrigo
01-12-2007, 07:57 PM
As I said, I wasnt doubting George Ledyard. After I posted, I realized that the way I phrased that question could be misinterpreted and added another post to clarify. A declarative statement can have varying levels of certainty, ranging from a probably true hypothesis to stone cold, dead to rights certain. We already know that some US aikido federations frown on their students attending seminars by other federations (ASU on the other hand is pretty open). So a similar federation allergy to the Aiki Expo would be par for the course. But the way these things work is that a federation would rarely issue such an instruction openly and explicitly. So the aikidoka outside such a federation would have some difficulty knowing about such an instruction with certainty.
George S. Ledyard
01-13-2007, 02:19 AM
SENSEI:
You know this for a fact? That some US shihan held their people back?
best,
RAUL
Yes, I do know that. Not only did some "major" teachers refuse invitations to attend but they made it clear that their students weren't to participate.
There was quite a hub bub for a time when the first Expo was being put together about why certain teachers weren't invited and certain organizations weren't represented... Stan made it quite apparent that they had been invited and that teachers from these orgaizations had indeed been invited but had chosen to stay away.
The one that REALLY got me though, was the teacher who accepted the invitation to teach and demo and told his students not to train in anyone else's classes. I have ZERO, ZIP, NADA, NO respect for that person.
George S. Ledyard
01-13-2007, 02:31 AM
As I said, I wasnt doubting George Ledyard. After I posted, I realized that the way I phrased that question could be misinterpreted and added another post to clarify. A declarative statement can have varying levels of certainty, ranging from a probably true hypothesis to stone cold, dead to rights certain. We already know that some US aikido federations frown on their students attending seminars by other federations (ASU on the other hand is pretty open). So a similar federation allergy to the Aiki Expo would be par for the course. But the way these things work is that a federation would rarely issue such an instruction openly and explicitly. So the aikidoka outside such a federation would have some difficulty knowing about such an instruction with certainty.
These things only rarely get stated out loud. Occasionally it is made overt. The students of a given teacher, especially the seniors, know what is expected of them and don't need it spelled out. It's an attitude.
It doesn't always work though. Any number of times I have encountered students from another organization at DC events with Saotome Sensei which they secretly attended. This has been going on for years as students get fed up with having their exposure to other teachers and other points of view restricted. I've even had a few sneak off to some of my own events, knowing they'd get in big trouble if their teacher knew.
Anyway, you can check on the list of participants in the three Expos and its pretty obvious who was and was not there.
raul rodrigo
01-13-2007, 04:05 AM
Yes, I do know that. Not only did some "major" teachers refuse invitations to attend but they made it clear that their students weren't to participate.
The one that REALLY got me though, was the teacher who accepted the invitation to teach and demo and told his students not to train in anyone else's classes. I have ZERO, ZIP, NADA, NO respect for that person.
Thank you for your reply, sensei. That was what I was looking for.
The teacher who came and taught but told his students to attend none of the others classes sounds like, as you say in the states, a real piece of work.
best,
RAUL
Kevin Leavitt
01-13-2007, 05:04 AM
My training over the last 3.5 years has been very interesting. I was discouraged at first because I am at a remote army training area in Germany where we are very busy and it is essentially a martial wasteland for good instruction.
On top of that I had nobody to train with, and the guys that I did have to train with were soldiers and aikido was simply not going to be the thing that floated there boat.
Anyway, I did find a way to train. It required me to be very creative and change some of the ways I did things.
I found the Army Combatives Program, embraced it, sought to understand it instead of fighitng it, as it was so different from what I did study.
I hooked up a BJJ purple belt, and a black belt from Brazil trying to get a school started.
I ran my own program and got a group of guys together on a fairly reqular basis. Some mornings I show up and there is no one there...very lonely and discouraging. That might happen for weeks on end....but I keep showing up. Seems like everytime I get ready to quit, something wonderful happens and we have guys come.
I do travel some what. I usually go out on the internet and find who is in the area that I am going to, and email them and ask to train with them. This has been wonderful! I have met many, many wonderful people doing this!
Yet, I still have yet to train with my friend Chuck Gordon who is an hour up the road from me! :)
With the Brazilian Black Belt, we basically have to support him like a patron. That is, we fly him over here, we find him a place to stay with some of the students, he stays for a few months, we collect up donations etc, and support him so we can train.
This fall did not go so well, he was flying back to Germany throught the U.S. and got detained for three weeks by immigration because of a computer disconnect on visas. So, he exhausted all the money we gave him, and had to go back to Brazil until this summer.
Anyway, it has been challenging to continue my training over the last 3.5 years. The majority of it, looking at the same smelly training partner that knows you like himself, hating each other because you are just damn tired of rolling and training with that one person!
having to wake up each morning, think about what you are going to work on. Going home at night, surfing the net and Youtube for new ideas and thoughts, of how to do this.
Wondering about if you are improving or are you developing affects because you are training with the same people with little or now feedback from a more experience person.
Feeling like Bill Murray in the movie Stripes...completing training on your own.
You know though, I think I have grown in many ways though. I think there is something to be said for training on your own, and seeking out instruction.
I am looking forward to returning to the states this summer where I will have a steady and consistent dojo filled with lots of people. One where I can show up, not really have to worry about what we are going to do that night. Having an instructor that can guide and assist you in your development, to tell you how you are doing.
That said, I would not trade the last 3.5 years. That and I am definitely taking a different approach to training when I return. One that will consist of me practicing in my "home" (hombo) dojo, but with my perspective focused on a much larger community of practice that consist of several dojos and people that I would have never considered from a traditonal standpoint!
Thanks all for the wonderful thread, and allowing me a place to share my thoughts.
Peter Goldsbury
01-13-2007, 08:28 AM
The teacher who came and taught but told his students to attend none of the others classes sounds like, as you say in the states, a real piece of work.
RAUL
Raul,
Please do not be too hasty to condemn that teacher. I am in the position of seeing both sides and knowing some of the history involved. I think it is better to applaud Stanley Pranin's initiative in hosting the Expos, rather than condemn those who could not quite match up to the vision that Stanley had in mind.
I think it is an excellent vision, but it had an omote and an ura aspect. The omote aspect was this wonderful exposition of different styles of aikido, nourished by input from other arts. The ura aspect was the fact that different 'styles' would be appearing side-by-side, as if they had equal 'value' and I think this is what upset the Aikikai.
I myself was attacked by certain shihans for agreeing to come to Aiki Expo 2002. So I asked Doshu. His response was that I was the elected chairman of an international aikido organization, so he had no grounds for giving me any direction as to what I should or should not do.
Best wishes,
George S. Ledyard
01-13-2007, 12:29 PM
Raul,
Please do not be too hasty to condemn that teacher. I am in the position of seeing both sides and knowing some of the history involved. I think it is better to applaud Stanley Pranin's initiative in hosting the Expos, rather than condemn those who could not quite match up to the vision that Stanley had in mind.
I think it is an excellent vision, but it had an omote and an ura aspect. The omote aspect was this wonderful exposition of different styles of aikido, nourished by input from other arts. The ura aspect was the fact that different 'styles' would be appearing side-by-side, as if they had equal 'value' and I think this is what upset the Aikikai.
I myself was attacked by certain shihans for agreeing to come to Aiki Expo 2002. So I asked Doshu. His response was that I was the elected chairman of an international aikido organization, so he had no grounds for giving me any direction as to what I should or should not do.
Best wishes,
Hi Peter,
It's one thing to understand what the cultural issues are that cause folks to make the decisions they do. It's quite another to buy into them and perpetuate them. You chose to attend the Expo, took the criticism for doing so, and then benefited (I hope) from the web of contacts, some of whom, I am sure, have become friends.
One of the best things about the 2002 Expo was that you were there. I remember joining you for breakfast and talking for hours. Your instruction was wonderful as well. Why should we, as non-Japanese practitioners of this art, feel like we need to buy into every aspect of the culture that created our teachers? Frankly, the Japanese are amazing in many ways but almost dysfunctional in others. Aikido has an opportunity to become greater by shedding its unnecessary cultural baggage.
Aikido is international now. Despite the belief at the Honbu dojo that the art still eminates outwards from "the Source" in Tokyo, Aikido is quite capable at this point of surviving quite nicely without them. If the administrators at the home dojo got out more they'd understand this.
The consequence of this very parochial view of things is that folks get pushed away from its roots. The desire to maintain control actually accomplishes the opposite. This is too bad because there are aspects of this art which are quite uniquely Japanese and it helpful to have exposure to the culture in understanding them. Aikido does not benefit from losing touch with the homeland.
But when you look at the Honbu Dojo website and see not one foreigner listed on its list of overseas Shihan, despite the fact that there are a number who have official pieces of paper which say they are Shihan, you see why people, quite rightly, take a hike and and simply choose to ignore the folks in the homeland.
You did what you thought was right for you, despite the crticism. I realize that you are in a sensitive position and must act both for yourself and for the role. The rest of us do not have that particular problem. We are responsible for creating Aikido for the next generation. What we model is what it will become. I have less than no interest in perpetuating the negative aspects of the culture that created Aikido over here.
Bruce Bookman Sensei and I have had dojos in the Seattle area for many, many years now. In fact, when he first returned from Japan, I trained half time at his dojo. Despite the fact that our teachers are not particularly fond of each other, we quite consciously decided that there was no need to carry on conflicts which originated in another time and place, whose origins we didn't even understand. We all need to make that decision.
We need to vote with our feet on these issues. When the relationships with our instructors start to retard our growth in the art, then we need to do what we need to do. This is a martial art, a form of Budo. Yet many senior people base all of their actions around a fear of incurring their teacher's displeasure. We need to do what is best for our training and what is best for the art. If enough folks simply stop buying into this non-sense, the top level teachers will change. The administration on Tokyo will change. It will be in their interest to do so.
I have an immense amount of respect for how you manage yourself in this world. Actually living and teaching in Japan makes it a different issue. One of my favorite internet past times is reading the articles you have written on the subject. You are living in their culture and it is right that you should navigate that world as much as you can according to their values. But over here and around the world, no. We should take a look at what we want aikido to become and act accordingly.
We should not accept anything which limits our own development in the art and we should not accept anything which serves to keep us apart from each other rather than bring us closer together. If our teachers get mad at us for acting as we believe we should in this area, well that's too bad. They will have to live with it.
raul rodrigo
01-13-2007, 08:33 PM
Raul,
Please do not be too hasty to condemn that teacher. I am in the position of seeing both sides and knowing some of the history involved. I think it is better to applaud Stanley Pranin's initiative in hosting the Expos, rather than condemn those who could not quite match up to the vision that Stanley had in mind.
I will defer to your judgment on this matter, sensei. You know much more than I do. But if I may say so, it strikes me as odd to show up and then still hold back from the very purpose of the event. I can understand people staying away completely, for whatever reasons of personal history or cultural issues. That is their privilege. But to go to an Expo, but not be there wholeheartedly seems to me to be a bit strange. And then again, there may be a lot I don't see.
You once wrote about teachers barring their students from training with others; I believe that you wrote something about how you weren't able to train with Nishio shihan due to something of this nature. Do you think that George Ledyard is right and that the Japanese teachers can eventually be forced to "loosen the reins" on their students?
best,
RAUL
Peter Goldsbury
01-14-2007, 03:31 AM
I will defer to your judgment on this matter, sensei. You know much more than I do. But if I may say so, it strikes me as odd to show up and then still hold back from the very purpose of the event. I can understand people staying away completely, for whatever reasons of personal history or cultural issues. That is their privilege. But to go to an Expo, but not be there wholeheartedly seems to me to be a bit strange. And then again, there may be a lot I don't see.
You once wrote about teachers barring their students from training with others; I believe that you wrote something about how you weren't able to train with Nishio shihan due to something of this nature. Do you think that George Ledyard is right and that the Japanese teachers can eventually be forced to "loosen the reins" on their students?
best,
RAUL
Raul,
I have increasingly come to see the danger of making unqualified cultural comparisons. Perhaps this is one benefit of living in a culture and not being a native: you can see things that they cannot see.
I would prefer to hear why the instructor was so restrictive before passing judgment. Aiki Expo 2002 was pioneering in many ways and the overall aim was not especially clear from the very beginning, especially to the participants from Japan.
Of course, I can see George's viewpoint and would probably share it if I were in a similar position. But I am not and I think it is not so easy to make a clear distinction between understanding cultural issues an buying into them/perpetuating them.
As for training with Nishio Shihan, I had a make a clear choice and I chose in one particular way. I was not then in the position I am in now. I also think that 'loosening the reins' is difficult for Japanese (and not just in the world of aikido) because of the complex of values implicit in the Japanese view of teaching and learning.
Best wishes,
SeiserL
01-15-2007, 07:38 AM
I myself was attacked by certain shihans for agreeing to come to Aiki Expo 2002.
Osu Sensei,
I was glad you were there and thoroughly enjoyed your class. Thank you for having the courage to attend an teach. I look forward to more.
Sounds like being lost in translation. I also find myself to be lost in Aiki every now and then. ;)
Ron Tisdale
01-16-2007, 09:37 AM
Excellent post George, Peter and all the others too. Thank you.
myself was attacked by certain shihans for agreeing to come to Aiki Expo 2002. So I asked Doshu. His response was that I was the elected chairman of an international aikido organization, so he had no grounds for giving me any direction as to what I should or should not do.
Hi Peter, was that the tatemae or honne response?? ;)
Best,
Ron
The legendary golfer Ben Crenshaw has always appeared to me to have an incredible attitude. When I was on my high school golf team, I cut an advertisement featuring him from a magazine. I taped it to my bedroom wall, and it's still there. The ad quotes him:
"There are shortcuts to the clubhouse.
There are shortcuts to the parking lot.
But there are no shortcuts to the pin.
You can't learn half a grip.
You can't master part of a swing.
There are no Cliffs Notes for downhill lies.
There is only work.
Practice. Sweat.
There is only one way.
The long way."
Such an attitude allows us to perceive the "elusive Aiki."
Drew
Nice little snippet Lynn. I'm a big believer that a) we deceive ourselves (often to protect our self-image) and don't even know it, b) conceptual thoughts only define aspects of reality (every concept or thought is a model, it is the success of the model which is important rather than any intrinsic 'value' since our definitions can never BE 'real'.)
So I suppose our answer is, train and try out all concepts 'till you find something that works!
Ian
Hi Peter,
... Frankly, the Japanese are amazing in many ways but almost dysfunctional in others. Aikido has an opportunity to become greater by shedding its unnecessary cultural baggage....
Indeed, a friend told me that Uesiba had said "Aikido is a flower that just happened to bloom in Japan".
Some people love pretending to be samurai, and love the myth and mysticism from a past which never existed (and at worst just served nationalistic needs*). Personally, I find oriental culture interesting, but that has little to do with my aikido! (except for these bloody stupid hakama we have to trip over). IMHO aikido is a living art, not a battle recreation from th 1600's.
(* if you read Ueshibas 1st book (yep, that one with all the line drawings) there is an intersting amount of anti-chinese and nationalistic hype in there. - my theory is that the end of WWII and the atomic bomb changed Ueshiba dramatically, and gave rise to this concept of not 'trying to win', because such an attitude is ultinmately futile)
Indeed, a friend told me that Uesiba had said "Aikido is a flower that just happened to bloom in Japan".
Some people love pretending to be samurai, and love the myth and mysticism from a past which never existed (and at worst just served nationalistic needs*).
(* if you read Ueshibas 1st book (yep, that one with all the line drawings) there is an intersting amount of anti-chinese and nationalistic hype in there. - my theory is that the end of WWII and the atomic bomb changed Ueshiba dramatically, and gave rise to this concept of not 'trying to win', because such an attitude is ultinmately futile)
I love the initial quote. The spirit of Aikido is a universal spirit, i.e. the human spirit some have awakened within themselves by facing their fears. To face our fears, we must endure varying periods of time of being afraid...sometimes terrified. This price is too high for some, so they live out their own comfortable, self-absorbed lives in darkness. O'Sensei chose, with his own free will, to seek and share the Light. Buddha and Jesus had similar dedication.
As far as some people pretending to be samurai, fantasies are psychologically healthy as long a person can clearly differentiate imagination from reality. Someone with a severe case of schizophrenia or is under the influence of a powerful hallucinogen such as phencyclidine (PCP), may have extreme difficulty knowing the difference. Aikidoka who have such psychoses and get stuck in a glamourized past, thinking they are ronin or samurai, are in the minority, but I agree that it's a problem.
What's Ueshiba's first book entitled? Where can I get a copy? Ignorant "hype" as you called it makes me think about the first time I read Saotome Shihan's "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature." In one of his drawings, I saw a swastika. At first I thought, what the...? Then I remembered that the Native Americans found meaning in this symbol long before Hitler *distorted* it. When I see something that appears ignorant at first, I often take a second look.
Drew
George S. Ledyard
01-19-2007, 09:39 AM
Ignorant "hype" as you called it makes me think about the first time I read Saotome Shihan's "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature." In one of his drawings, I saw a swastika. At first I thought, what the...? Then I remembered that the Native Americans found meaning in this symbol long before Hitler *distorted* it. When I see something that appears ignorant at first, I often take a second look.
Drew
Just as an aside, the swastika is one of the oldest religous symbols in the world and is found all over in the New World and the old World. Quite common in Buddhist symbology.
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