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Roy Dean
12-22-2005, 10:31 AM
All,

Just read that Jason Delucia will be fighting Evangelista Cyborg at Cage Rage 15 in Europe. This is a great card and it will be good to see Jason back in the mix. Go Jason!

http://www.fightsport.fr/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=62

Roy Dean

Brehan Crawford
12-22-2005, 10:39 AM
wow... is Cyborg really that guy's last name?

Demetrio Cereijo
12-22-2005, 03:13 PM
No.

Evangelista Santos (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=2605)

Btw: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everybody.

DH
12-26-2005, 06:02 AM
All,

Just read that Jason Delucia will be fighting Evangelista Cyborg at Cage Rage 15 in Europe. This is a great card and it will be good to see Jason back in the mix. Go Jason!

http://www.fightsport.fr/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=62

Roy Dean



When Jason was fighting locally he was into (5 animal) kung fu. When he lost to Gracie he started studying jujutsu. Apparently he is now exploring body work principles, and how they apply to aikido -which is a fairly new study to him.
a. Don't state this as an "aikido" guy doing MMA. that is simply not accurate. In fact it is misleading.
b. Don't expect to see anything remotely resembling Aikido technique win in MMA.


Cheers
Dan

cheers
San

Roy Dean
12-26-2005, 10:57 AM
Dan,

Yes, you're right, when Jason first fought Royce in the Gracie in Action tapes, he studied 5 Animal Kung Fu. Then he started studying BJJ, and chose to fight his teacher in the UFC (which may have been why Royler was screaming at Royce to not let go of the armlock after he tapped repeatedly).

Why would it be inaccurate or misleading to state that he is an "Aikido guy", when in fact he teaches Aikido, sells Combat Aikido instructionals, posts on Aikido forums and makes statements like the following:

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=37537#post37537

"ONCE A REPORTER ASKED ME WHAT MY FOCUSS WAS ,AND WHY IT WASN'T THE TITLE BELT.MY ANSWER ,THAT I KNEW IF I COULD TRANSMUTE TO AIKIDO, THAT I COULD HAVE ANY TITLE BELT ,BEAT ANY ONE ,DO ANY THING.I KNEW MY CAREER WAS SUFFERING FROM THE CONVERSION ,AND I DIDN'T CARE .I KNEW THAT MR. UESHIBA WAS CONSIDERED TO BE IN HIS PRIME NEAR 50 YEARS OLD AND WAS EFFECTIVE TILL THE DAY HE DIED .KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW ,I SEE WHY .AND WHEN FIGHTERS OF MY AGE RETIRE I CAN BEAT THEM AND THEIR STUDENTS ,BECAUSE OF THE ART ,NOT THE EGO."

Don't get me wrong, Dan. I'm a Jason DeLucia fan, and followed him from UFC to Pancrase back to UFC and now in his Aiki phase. Of course, when he offers to demonstrate the effectiveness of Aikido through statements like this, how could you NOT consider him an Aikidoka?:

"the best fight for me to show it on would be ''chuck liddel''a real martial artist"

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1126&page=6&pp=25
(BTW, the thread above is quite good at times, it offers a more in depth perspective of Jason's strategy for implementing Aikido in an NHB environment)

If he's offering to show the effectiveness in Aikido in an NHB setting, then I would consider him an "Aikido Guy". Plus, he's likely the most well rounded Aikidoka since Mochizuki. I think it will be very eye opening for such a well rounded martial artist who considers himself an Aikidoka to show other Aikidoka where the real blending happens once the heat is on inside the cage.

Respectfully,

Roy Dean
www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com

Aristeia
12-26-2005, 12:09 PM
I'm going to be extremely interested to see this. I too have a deal of respect for Jason. However from the clips I've seen from the website, the stuff that looks like it would work in the cage is jiu jitsu and the stuff that is cribbed from Aikido doesn't (to me) look like it would work (in a cage at least). It's going to be fascinating to see how he goes, and what techniques are actually used.

Jorge Garcia
12-26-2005, 12:25 PM
Do we need to say that "it will be fascinating to see what Aikido techniques he uses", rather than how "Aikido will work in a cage"? I don't think that there will be Aikido demonstrated in that cage! :confused:

Kevin Leavitt
12-26-2005, 01:22 PM
Seeing that aikido "physical" principles are universal in nature, I think it is safe to say that it is easy to see how they could be attached to any technique that is correctly applied. That said, as aikido as practiced by most is a philosophical based art, I'd say it would be impossible to apply this in a competition such as this.

That said, I have seen Jason's techniques, and look forward to seeing how they are employed in this fight., aikido or not.

Something tells me we will be debating this for months after the fight with no resolution in sight!

Good luck Jason!

DH
12-26-2005, 05:28 PM
Well I expect that sooner or later Jason will address the questions.
After that we will all see the fight.
My views will be "aikido is a system and a recognizable art irrespective of those who claim everyting they do is sooo..different." I am hoping to see recognizable things that are practiced in the dojo and recogniziable as "Aikido" done in that cage...and not just just lip service.
Anyone could do the same thing with single.double leg takedowns, naked chokes and kicks and call it... .well.... what ever they want. saying "Martial arts are without form"...blah blah blah.

I have to be honest in that I expect anyone exhibiting Aikido technique to get their asses kicked in short order. Just a view
Jason is experienced and may be able to energize his Aikido quite well.
cheers
Dan

wendyrowe
12-27-2005, 05:15 PM
Yes, you're right, when Jason first fought Royce in the Gracie in Action tapes, he studied 5 Animal Kung Fu. Then he started studying BJJ, and chose to fight his teacher in the UFC (which may have been why Royler was screaming at Royce to not let go of the armlock after he tapped repeatedly).
Urban Legend Alert! Yes, Jason was mainly a 5 Animal Kung Fu guy and called himself that when he took the Gracie Challenge and fought Royce in Royce's dojo (the fight on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action II tape). Afterwards, Jason says, a friend of Rickson's taught him a lot so he'd make a good account of himself in UFC. He was INVITED to fight in UFC because Royce and the others thought he should be in it; it's not that he "chose to fight his teacher."

And Royce held onto the armbar because there'd been cases when people later said they hadn't tapped -- Jason thinks it was perfectly reasonable for Royce to have held it, and there are no hard feelings between them and never were.

wendyrowe
12-27-2005, 05:28 PM
When Jason was fighting locally he was into (5 animal) kung fu. When he lost to Gracie he started studying jujutsu. Apparently he is now exploring body work principles, and how they apply to aikido -which is a fairly new study to him.
a. Don't state this as an "aikido" guy doing MMA. that is simply not accurate. In fact it is misleading.
Don't be so quick to dismiss Jason's Aikido background. He spent 10 years studying Aikido in Japan and here; and as a pro fighter without a "normal" 9-5 job during those years, he had the luxury of training several hours per day every day. And he's still studying and refining his technique. I've watched him in class and training on his own, and his moves are easily recognizable as O'Sensei's.

As for whether you'll see something that looks like Aikido win in MMA, it depends on your threshhold for what you consider looking like Aikido. It has to be Aikido techniques against a seriously resisting opponent, which means you can bet it'll include serious atemi and techniques that aren't generally used in a lot of Aikido classes. But that doesn't mean they're not Aikido -- we've got some pictures on aikidog.com of O'Sensei doing front and side chokes

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=226&sid=51a4254872ae45f6891eb33253bd7c04

and of another old master (Keith identified him as Terada Kiyoyuki) doing arm bars and pulling guard:

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=53&sid=51a4254872ae45f6891eb33253bd7c04

Mike Sigman
12-27-2005, 06:10 PM
I am hoping to see recognizable things that are practiced in the dojo and recogniziable as "Aikido" done in that cage...and not just just lip service.
Anyone could do the same thing with single.double leg takedowns, naked chokes and kicks and call it... .well.... what ever they want. saying "Martial arts are without form"...blah blah blah. I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but it's quite common for someone to do the standard "kick-punch" or the standard jiu-jitsu matwork and call it whatever they want... particularly if they happen to win. This phenomenon of calling the standard (and obviously so) stuff by some other name has gotten out of hand in the last number of years. We see standard kick-punch being called "Tai Chi" or "White Crane" or "Fu-style Boxing" and we see standard matwork being attributed to Fukien Ground Boxing, etc. The giveaway is always that it never looks like anything but the standard fare, despite the "internal principles" that are supposedly being exhibited. If it looks like kick-punch, you can pretty much bet it's just kick-punch; if it looks like jiu-jitsu matwork, you're pretty safe in betting that there is no more "blending" or whatever than you'd see in most matwork. Some of these things turn into sort of embarrassing spiels.

The other side of the coin that I've seen a fair number of times is for some style 'leader' or 'teacher' to adopt some natural and aggressive fighter into the 'system' and then hang all of his wins on 'the system'. This is also embarrassing.... particularly when you have some losers in the dojo also claiming how great the guy is using 'the system', when it never panned out for them even on a good day. :freaky:

FWIW

Mike

Roy Dean
12-27-2005, 06:35 PM
Wendy,

Thank you for the clarification, and it's good to hear that there were no hard feelings between Jason and Royce.

Roy Dean

DH
12-28-2005, 06:08 AM
HI Roy
I'd think you'll find that the majority (not all) of guys who fight are well balanced and self-effacing about their wins and losses- the professional ones even more so. You can see the same aplomb among many athletes. Ya do your best ya take your chances.
It is more typical to see the martial artists who are a bit weird about things. Jason did his homework and gave and took his shots and is level headed.
Wendy thanks for the history.. That means last I saw him (about ten years ago in my Dojo) he must have gone to Japan and studied Aikido.
As you can tell I happen to be a doubting Thomas about seeing recognizable Aikido win. Now that I see the site and the pictures- I have even more of a feeling it is going to be as I said. More of the same jujutsu stuff now called "real Aikido."
Please be mindful that those same pictures you are bandying about are NOT aikido. They are Ueshiba doing Daito ryu jujutsu, which he taught, and during the time frame you site in those pictures he was actively teaching, grading, and awarding scrolls for...
Daito ryu jujutsu.
Sorry, it's just that if you want to be taken seriously you need to know your facts. Anyone who has read the research and knows the "real Aikido" history already knows this.
I refer you to Aikido Journal, Stan Pranin, Conversations with Aikido Masters, and conversations with Daito ryu masters.
In there- you will read interviews with "the real Aikido masters" You know.... those you are talking about and showing doing the chokes.
Page after page you will read things like this.

"So, Sensei so and so. During the times you were training with O' sensei and those Budo photos were taken, what were you doing?"
"We were doing Daito ryu"

What was Ueshibas teaching?

"He was teaching Daito ryu. Would you like to see my scroll?"

Over, and over, and over, it's truly embarrassing for the Ueshiba family. Which was why Stan was asked to stop many times.

Then he went to Tokimune Takeda.
"Sensei, how long was Ueshiba studying Daito ryu with your father Sokaku?
"Wait, let look together....." Out from the back comes a trunk. Filled with 35 volumes of eimoroku (student enrollment registers). Who is in the book with his own stamp for 23 years?
Ueshiba Morihei
Up to when"
1936. before, during, and AFTER......those famous photos....

So if ya want to tell me Jason is calling Daito ryu the "real Aikido "
I can agree with that.
Just don't tell me its what they are doing in Aikido dojo across the land on a daily basis.

Mike Sigman writes
This phenomenon of calling the standard (and obviously so) stuff by some other name has gotten out of hand in the last number of years.


Actually It seems its old news, and Ueshiba was a master at it. He just got caught and called on it.
Thank goodness for honesty and open minded research.
There is a shortage of it with men wanting to hang on to what they hold so dear that it blinds the truth from them. Something which, in and of itself, is old news but I see it all the time.
Cheers
Dan

Kevin Leavitt
12-28-2005, 07:06 AM
I think since aikido is tied more to philosophy than technique, then this argument becomes somewhat pointless. I think Mike Sigman does a good job in his post of discussing this.

Aikido uses martial techniques and methodology to teach the philosophy, not the other way around. So to say someone will use aikido in the ring, a tournament, a fight? How do you do that? that is fight with a philosophy?

I use techniques commonly associated with BJJ and karate to demonstrate Aikido principles/philosophy too! I use the same techniques many times incorporated into my MMA fighitng....what is the point of labeling the techniques this or that?

The only reason I can see associating or labeling something as "aikido" in this type of scenario it to appease ego or to increase your marketing potential to prospective students.

Why can't we just let aikido be what it is?

Again, I bet we will be arguing this for a long time!

DH
12-28-2005, 07:30 AM
It's the easy out Kevin.
It lets anyone do or say anything they wish as it may apply to "their aikido"
The path of least resistance can be to open a phalanx, let the enemy come at you and absorb his incoming charge and then out flank him and kill every one of them. To which you hear "Ah…this is MY Aikido.
While they twirl and wrist lock and deny they do that too. Saying "That"….. is not MY Aikido
Just go and watch the aikido expo thingy's with everyone expressing a different view while they all look remarkably the same.
Taken to its extreme then…..you cannot call the Aikido movement anything. It has successfully talked its way into being meaningless.
It is not any one-thing so it isn't anything. There is no real Aikido..its gaflooey -do.

I think that notion is absurd and it speaks for itself. Aikido is what it is and is recognizable and just has variations on a theme.


So now we get to see Jason do jujutsu..apparently using old photos for evidence that this existed in it's history ala.. `1935 Daito ryu photos.... now morphed to fit a modern cage fight and call that his "real aikido."
So what else is new?
Whatever
Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-28-2005, 08:04 AM
I think that notion is absurd and it speaks for itself. Aikido is what it is and is recognizable and just has variations on a theme.


So now we get to see Jason do jujutsu..apparently using old photos for evidence that this existed in it's history ala.. `1935 Daito ryu photos.... now morphed to fit a modern cage fight and call that his "real aikido."
Well, Aikido has its own curriculum, etc. Technically, someone could claim that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is simply a "variation" of judo or one of the jiu-jitsu ryu. Daito Ryu had its roots, as well.... are we going to say that there is no such thing as Daito Ryu? Instead of beating the drum that Aikido is simply Daito Ryu, why don't we leave the hair-splitting alone and get to more substantive issues? Just a suggestion, FWIW.

Mike

DH
12-28-2005, 08:25 AM
Instead of beating the drum that Aikido is simply Daito Ryu, why don't we leave the hair-splitting alone and get to more substantive issues? Just a suggestion


Aikido isn't Daito ryu. Where'd ya get that one?
Aikido -came- from Daio ryu.
As for the morphed history lesson expressed in the pictures
Fact:
The pictures are of Ueshiba doing Daito ryu –No-t Aikido
When he was actively teaching Daito ryu
When he was still actively studying it


That’s all.
FWIW I don't beat the drum for any one thing. I haven't for a long time now. DR, AIkido, the CMA whatever......I don't want each or several to claim to be something it isn't or wasn't.
I just don't let the truth of Ueshiba's training which is definitive and documented get morphed into something it wasn't.
Many have tried-they still are.
Citing material and then referencing it erroneously isn't "hair splitting" Mike. I would expect truly neutral and open research people to be interested in factual observations and then welcoming it. People like that are not trying to force-fit something into their own agenda.
Ueshiba’s history is documented, cross referenced, open for review. I suggest anyone having something worth reading or looking into contact Stan Pranin. He would be happy to see anything worth looking at that hasn’t been thoroughly reviewed before now.
cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-28-2005, 08:38 AM
Dan, I think there are very few people in Aikido that don't know Ueshiba's roots were in Daito Ryu. You're preaching to the choir.

Mike

Devon Natario
12-28-2005, 08:59 AM
No offense to anyone here, but if a person was to try an use the Aikido I learned, they would not last a round in the octagon.

The Aikido I learned was about blending and manipulating energy, not colliding head on with force on force.

We also did not cover punches and kicks enough to be effective kickers and punchers. We also covered no groundfighting at all.

I personally could not call doing a few of the techniques, "Doing Aikido."

My curriculum is very Aikido based, but I still call it Jujitsu for the simple fact that I teach to be agressive and make the techniques work. Without harmonizing that energy, it is not Aikido.

I think everyone should agree though that the marketing Jason is giving Aikido is a great thing for the instructors out there. Think of the great things the Octagon brought the gracies or any style of Jujitsu for that matter.

Again, no offense to anyone, I do not think the Octagon is a place for a pure Aikidoist. This is why it has become MMA over the years.

Kevin Leavitt
12-28-2005, 12:51 PM
I think everyone should agree though that the marketing Jason is giving Aikido is a great thing for the instructors out there. Think of the great things the Octagon brought the gracies or any style of Jujitsu for that matter.

I think the marketing that Jason is giving himself is good business for him.

as far as aikido, it may be good business for a few weeks, but I hate to think about people coming to aikido with the wrong idea or wrong perspective about the expectations they hope to acheive out of a typical aikido dojo. They will be let down for sure if they are looking at it for a MMA perspective.

I applaud what Jason is doing for the sake of Jason. Frankly I am doing the same thing for my art and aikido, but I also don't hold myself out as an TMA aikido instructor with it either. (For the record, I don't believe Jason is either from what I can tell, he uses the term "Combat Aikido".)

Yea the dynamic in the octagon does not fit within the paradigm of aikido very well. While principles may be applied, not the philosophy of aikido. I don't think Jason has said anything contrary to that either in the past that I can see.

Also, the Gracies brought the octagon to the public, not the other way around. It was marketing on their part (UFC 1). That said, you won't find them fighting the same way today that they did back then either as the game has changed a great deal. Things evolve, the Gracies have evovled to!

I really don't understand why we want to limit ourselves in "labels" anyway? Daito Ryu, aikido, judo, BJJ whatever....I believe in using many different methodologies for training to improve myself as a martial artist!

If I were to fight in the Octagon, I'd develop a game plan and strategy that would work best for that scenario, drawing from whatever worked...(MMA). I certainly would not limit myself to the typical aikido paradiqm or methodolgy.

DH
12-28-2005, 04:01 PM
Dan, I think there are very few people in Aikido that don't know Ueshiba's roots were in Daito Ryu. You're preaching to the choir.

Mike

All you have to do is read the above web site (with the pictures) information and and then about 500 pages worth of questions and misinformed statements on the Aikdio journal website to prove yourself wrong.
Folks who often accuse others of preaching to the choir are IN the choir in the first place.
They forgot the rest of the audience who haven't heard the sermon. ;)
BTW that is meant to be compliment..before you tell me I am attacking you personally....again.

Gents, and ladies...

I think what Jason is attempting is fine as well-on both fronts. We'll all have to wait and see if it looks anything like Aikido.
FWIW I think Aikido could use a stronger dose of its foundations in internal skills ..not more jujutsu and P/K arts.

Dan

Devon Natario
12-28-2005, 04:19 PM
I really don't understand why we want to limit ourselves in "labels" anyway? Daito Ryu, aikido, judo, BJJ whatever....I believe in using many different methodologies for training to improve myself as a martial artist!
I agree, but I have found many here that don't.

Kevin Leavitt
12-28-2005, 05:39 PM
probably because many people's goals here are to become good aikidoka, which aikido is the best art and methodology to acheive that end state. Nothing wrong with that goal, frankly I think it is one that is very worthwhile. Why waste your time doing anything else if this is your goal.

Others though, myself included, have other reasons for doing what we do. I don't pretend that aikido can be everything that I want it to. I also don't think aikido is a "lacking" art either, it just is good for what it is intended to be.

Where we run into problems is when people try to project on to aikido other goals, and expectations on to the art. Conflict arises as well as disappointment, and lack of esteem/confidence. These are the big issues I see constantly with aikidoka that are confused with what they want in life, with aikido, and martial arts in general.

Good discussion!

Shannon Frye
12-28-2005, 09:20 PM
Dan, I think there are very few people in Aikido that don't know Ueshiba's roots were in Daito Ryu. You're preaching to the choir.

Mike


I've been in various martial arts for about 25 years now, and just started in Aikido a few months ago. I've "heard" that the founder took a bunch of jujitsu, modified it, and called it aikido. As a newcomer to the art, or "newest member of the choir", I had no idea about Daito ryu or aikido history. I appreaciate Dan's history lesson.

Shannon

Jorx
01-03-2006, 03:21 PM
I think there's a good chance that Jason will be knocked out. But if he lasts over 2 minutes then Cyborg will probably gas out and Jason will win via late subission or judges decision.

JasonFDeLucia
01-04-2006, 10:56 AM
As you can tell I happen to be a doubting Thomas about seeing recognizable Aikido win. Now that I see the site and the pictures- I have even more of a feeling it is going to be as I said. More of the same jujutsu stuff now called "real Aikido."
Please be mindful that those same pictures you are bandying about are NOT aikido. They are Ueshiba doing Daito ryu jujutsu, which he taught, and during the time frame you site in those pictures he was actively teaching, grading, and awarding scrolls for...
Daito ryu jujutsu.

so are you saying that in the middle of a match any technique that mr ueshiba used that came from the daity ryu repertoire he couldn't claim as an aikido tech ?then you can't call irimi nage or shiho nage or many daito ryu techniques a daito ryu technique by your standard because they existed as kung fu techniques long before daito ryu was coined !

DH
01-04-2006, 02:27 PM
Hi Jason
Before we get into it ...good luck and I hope you win.

As for a debate
He did not learn it from Kung fu, and yes I agree there are similar things in many arts. But most anyone I know "learned " them from someone in an art and they are attributable to that teacher or line. Make sense? Otherwise we can all chuck it and say anything we do is anything we want to call it. Why call it Aikido?
Why even pick a name?

Its clear that what "he" was doing was definable DR as that is what he had just spent 20+years doing. Not a hodge podge of others things which has been definitively disproved by Stan.
When he chose..after all his many years doing...whatever ..to opne up shop...what did he do.Not what we thingk not what we want to believe.... what did he actually do?
According to all the interviews he taught
Daito ryu
the scrolls he hands out were
Daito ryu

So what he WAS doing in the photos was
Daito ryu
Now, I am not arguing good, bad, or even. or whos dad can beat up who's dad I could care less. We can talk all day about the weaknesses of Daito ryu or any other art. They all have em.
I am only stating what it was in fact he was doing...then


Now, you can morph anything and call it anything, Just look at all the different forms of Aikido out there. But wouldn't it be Jason's combat Aikido.. A reflection of your work and vision of what you "see" and have learned...and not Ueshiba's ...er...anything? ;)

Cheers
Dan

DH
01-04-2006, 02:46 PM
Interview with Stan Pranin the premier researcher and documenter of Ueshiba and Aikido

Q.O-sensei also reportedly studied a lot of other koryu arts outside of Daito-ryu.
SP: I would say that that's not true.
If you look at it historically, he went up to Tokyo in 1901 and spent about a year there. During this stay in Tokyo when he was training to become a merchant, he did a little bit of Tenjin Shinryo-ryu jujutsu. It was probably a "machi" dojo, in other words a small dojo in the Asakusa area of Tokyo. He would go there at night, but it was probably about three or four months total since he got very ill with beriberi and had to leave Tokyo and return to Tanabe. He was doing it while working very hard during the day and it was a very brief period of only a few months. It would be difficult to imagine that that had a strong, technical influence.
By the same token when he was in the army, he also began studying Yagyu-ryu jujutsu. There are some questions about what the actual name of the art was. O-sensei referred to it as Yagyu-ryu jujutsu, while [Kisshomaru Ueshiba] Doshu did some research and said it was Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu or similar name.
He was in the army at the time and also was sent to Manchuria for a part of the time. It was hard for me to imagine him going regularly while being in the army, so I don't know if his training was on the weekends or what. He apparently was enthusiastic about his training but there just weren't the circumstances to allow a detailed study.
He did, however, continue to study a little bit of Yagyu-ryu after he got out of the army, but he was in Tanabe which was a couple of hundred miles away and he had to go up by ferry! Again, maybe he went up three, four, or a half a dozen times, but it wasn't the sort of thing of an intensive study with someone year after year.
Now, he did have a makimono (scroll) as well -- however, it bears no seal. One can only speculate what that meant. Sometimes what happens is that a person would be told to prepare a makimono or have someone prepare it and, for whatever circumstance or reason, the teacher never gets around to signing it. Therefore, the scroll cannot be considered official.
So, it would appear that he did study this Yagyu-ryu form more than the Tenjin Shinryo-ryu jujutsu, but probably at the most he did a year or two.
The other art that he studied, but again not in very much depth, would have been judo. The first description of the teacher who was sent down from the Kodokan to Tanabe by O-sensei's father to teach Morihei and various relatives and friends gave the impression that this judo teacher was somewhat of an expert. It turns out he was 17 years old. I met his wife back in the 1980s and she told me this directly. He could have been a shodan, maximum. Also, O-sensei was involved with other things in this transition phase of his life trying to figure out what he was going to be doing as a career. One of the reasons, according to Doshu, that this judo person was brought in was to help him focus and channel his energies. But O-sensei ended up going to Hokkaido.

So, you have this very brief stint in Tenjin Shinryo Ryu, some training in Yagyu Ryu jujutsu while in the army, a smattering of judo, (with a 17 yr old teacher) and then (20+ yrs in) Daito-ryu. That's it. The impression that he studied many different arts other than Daito-ryu and mastered them is completely false.

end quote
I added the notes in parenthesis for clarity of the information found in all of Stans works.
Read AIkido Journal and Stans related works they are top shelf.

******************************
That interview is here on Aikiweb by Jun.

cheers
Dan

SeiserL
01-04-2006, 03:44 PM
It is my understanding that once an art deviates enough from its original practice, then it is only respectful to call it something else. IMHO, while many techniques certainly came from Daito-ryu (and have always been acknowledged as such), the emphasis away from purely martial application turned O'Sensei's art into a "do" (way) instead of a "jutsu" (battle art). Since O'Sensei kept a close relationship with his Daito-ryu teacher (Sokaku Takeda) throughout his life, we can assume the name change and focus had some approval.

IMHO, if you look close enough, you will see a lot of Aiki principles already in MMA/UFC/Pride.

Good luck Jason. I'll be cheering form you.

senshincenter
01-04-2006, 08:28 PM
Now, you can morph anything and call it anything, Just look at all the different forms of Aikido out there. But wouldn't it be Jason's combat Aikido.. A reflection of your work and vision of what you "see" and have learned...and not Ueshiba's ...er...anything?


Man, for me, this is the point. The name is not important either way - not important enough to keep, not important enough to abandon. The point is that this thing - whatever it is - this "Aikido," that it be YOUR Aikido - reflection of what you see and have learned, that it not be Ueshiba's or Johnson's or Smith's, etc.

In my opinion, Aikido is not a ryu and so it's practitioners should not burden themselves with making an artifact of their art all the while that they are trying to transcend that art (which is necessary for any art to exist at a combat level - in my opinion).

Aikido is pure tool - not a tool you are supposed to culturally kill and then put behind some glass box in some sort of history museum. Since Aikido is not a ryu, its practitioners can and should be motivated by seeking pure transcendence without any worry of losing the art. In fact, the point is to lose the art. In my opinion, that, more than ever, is necessary now - now that Aikido for the most part is more artifact that art - this compounded by the fact that the artifact of Aikido is not even that good of one (martially and/or spiritually speaking). In other words, if Aikido is ever going to regain its martial prowess, and then also its capacity to cultivate the spirit through a martial means, it is going to happen via folks that have abandoned the artifact and have opted instead to lose themselves in the art and thus the art in them. (What was that Osensei quote - about, something like, don't do my Aikido, do your Aikido, or find your own Aikido, etc.???? Didn't it go something like that? That idea seems relevant here.)

Additionally, the gate-keepers of Aikido artifact, which is not a reference to anyone in this thread, and/or even the more open-minded practitioners that would nevertheless like to put some sort of stop to the production of bad or malformed Aikido, have to realize that you don't stop bad Aikido from developing and spreading by making the art an artifact. In a way, in a very real way, both martially and spiritually, to make the art an artifact is one sure way of making everyone's practice suck.

my opinion,
dmv

jester
01-04-2006, 10:58 PM
I have to agree with you David.

No one at all can really say what they are doing is REAL Aikido. No-one.

What Aikido was in the first part of the century was one thing. Mid-century another, Today another and in between all of those eras something else.

So which is it that's real?

All the direct students of O'sensei do their own Aikido, and when you learn it, you will eventually do your Aikido. There are basic principles that guide most of us, but even those aren't universal to all Aikido styles and schools.

So to get back on topic, if Jason wants to represent Aikido then more power to him. Just because what he's doing isn't in one of the books you've read doesn't mean it's not Aikido.

Mike Fugate
01-05-2006, 01:44 AM
I just hope he fights better than his UFC fights, cuz his "five animal style kung fu" looked more like a five animal dance and submit style to me. I mean I think that a traditional 5 animal style would hold up VERY well, and all he did was run, fall, and tapp. Hey best of luck to you, but please be carefull when you say you represent a certain style.Last I checked no one voted you the representitive of the art, and your representation of Kung Fu in the UFC wasnt a real representation at all, yet one of the many instances that other use to laugh at traditional martial artists. Good Luck :ki: ;) O'Sensei was the representitve and still is through his teachings. :ki:

Jorx
01-05-2006, 02:17 AM
Mike I'm sorry but just LOL at that post.
Whateve you call traditional five animal kung fu would look JUST like that. Dance, fall and tap (excellent expression btw, I'll start using that) in sport-MMA.

Aiki x
01-05-2006, 03:57 AM
To be fair to Jason Delucia he did win his first two UFC fights. Following his loss against Royce Gracie I think he went onto defeat Masakatsu Funaki in Pancrase. Funaki was one of Japan's top fighters at that time. That said I am sceptical about how much genuine Aikido we will see in his fight.

DH
01-05-2006, 04:32 AM
I take exception to the style of critisism offerd for Jasons efforts. Jason is real, is serious about his work, would clean the clock of just about everyone on these boards and is very relaxed and just would not say so. He puts his body where just everyone elses mouths are.
Since he doesn't make a big deal out of that....I will

There is a comradery among guys who fight and roll. Also a bit more of a balanced view about physical skills and their application. This leads to a far more realistic self-assessment and ego check. Something I find lacking in many of the martial artist I have met.

Dan

DH
01-05-2006, 04:55 AM
It is my understanding that once an art deviates enough from its original practice, then it is only respectful to call it something else. IMHO, while many techniques certainly came from Daito-ryu (and have always been acknowledged as such), the emphasis away from purely martial application turned O'Sensei's art into a "do" (way) instead of a "jutsu" (battle art). Since O'Sensei kept a close relationship with his Daito-ryu teacher (Sokaku Takeda) throughout his life, we can assume the name change and focus had some approval.

IMHO, if you look close enough, you will see a lot of Aiki principles already in MMA/UFC/Pride.

Good luck Jason. I'll be cheering form you.


Lynn

That Aikido came from Daito ryu was never....neeeever widely ackowledged by anyone. It was also widely denied by everyone in the Ueshiba family. Everything we now know..let me say that again.
EVERYTHING we now know came from the research of Stan Pranin
And he almost got thrown out of Aikido for;
a. just asking the wrong (right) questions
b. simply publishing the answers

Sorry, I just can't let the mans life work go unheralded. The one paragraph in his answer offered above:
So, you have this very brief stint in Tenjin Shinryo Ryu, some training in Yagyu Ryu jujutsu while in the army, a smattering of judo, (under a 17 yr ols shodan) and then (20+yrs) Daito-ryu. That's it. The impression that he studied many different arts other than Daito-ryu and mastered them is completely false.

You would think this was a death blow to the many myth makers out there. All you have to do is read the current boards to understand that the myth makers are still at work. One can only assume the opinions offered from these students are opnions expressed to them from.......somewhere.
Any and all correct information came from Stan. One only needs to have read what was available -before Stan- and then after Stan.

As for mantaining a close relationship? He used to run away when Takeda showed up. Witnessed, revealed and coroberated by so many of his students as to not be denied.

cheers
Dan

Mato-san
01-05-2006, 05:24 AM
Jason good luck, you have quiet the pedigree as Bas would say. IMO anyone who steps up against the likes of Royce Gracie and others (List to long) deserves the utmost respect, give em some kotegaeshi for me (something we see little of in NHB) , next time you are in Japan I will sure to be following your progress. My aikido is not a compliment to former arts to be a weapon in the cage, but I do enjoy the sport and have great respect for all involved except Phil Baroni of course, I just dont like him.

Misogi-no-Gyo
01-05-2006, 07:44 AM
Everything we now know..let me say that again.
EVERYTHING we now know came from the research of Stan Pranin...
Actually, Dan, everything YOU know about Aikido came from stan's research. The mere fact that stan may be right about some things seem to grant him absolution in all areas, according to you. The fact is, he isn't right about everything, and he knows it. So do quite a few other people, but apparently, not you. While that is just fine, and while you believe that because people keep things to themselves that means it doesn't exist, what will you do later on when you do find out that stan's research, while wonderful in its effort may not have been 100% on the mark with regards to all his conclusions? Will you re-evaluate your "opinion" and come on back to the aikido boards you post on and give a heart-felt apology? Somehow I don't thinks so. Of course, like stan, I might not be 100% right, either...
You would think this was a death blow to the many myth makers out there. All you have to do is read the current boards to understand that the myth makers are still at work. One can only assume the opinions offered from these students are opinions expressed to them from.......somewhere.
Dan, myth maker is such a great term. Somehow it seems that you wake up looking to repeat the same old thing, over and over and over, just one more time (in an Aikido forum, mind you), just to make yourself feel better... try some aspirin, or a mirror, perhaps. Repeating your opinion about someone else's theory doesn't make the world flat, nor give the intelligent designer a new coat & hat. Simply speaking, the fact is that your heart-felt opinions about someone else's theories do not make fact.
Any and all correct information came from Stan. One only needs to have read what was available -before Stan- and then after Stan.
Sounds like stan is just another jesus. Dan, is your middle name john (the baptist) by any chance?
As for maintaining a close relationship? He used to run away when Takeda showed up. Witnessed, revealed and corroborated by so many of his students as to not be denied.
Dan, let's face up to facts... just because someone may have considered themselves to have been someone's teacher, doesn't mean they weren't an a$$hole. Other than hemorrhoids, who wants to hang around with an a$$hole, especially one who wants money? As for denials, again, try the mirror.


PS - while I typically enjoy your poignant remarks with regards to technical specifics, irregardless of whether or not I agree or disagree, this public battle with yourself (in aikido forums) with regards to Takeda's role (or place) in Aikido, while well noted on the boards, is quite a tired tirade about which you might want to seek some counseling. While Takeda Sensei was certainly the pillar of Daito-Ryu, and while there is certainly a relationship between the two arts, mistakenly assigning him the father of Aikido is akin to saying that the grandfather is the father of the grandson. I do believe we call that incest, something which isn't looked well upon, nor which you should be boasting... Again no one ever denied that there wasn't a relationship, but no matter how many times you repeat it out loud, Aikido and Daito-Ryu, like the father and the son, are not one and the same… sorry.



.

Budd
01-05-2006, 07:50 AM
Jason, I wish you the best of luck in your upcoming bout. I'll be rooting for you.

jester
01-05-2006, 09:32 AM
I mean I think that a traditional 5 animal style would hold up VERY well, and all he did was run, fall, and tapp.

In the early days of the UFC, EVERY Style practically did that against Royce Gracie.

Royce is a great Martial artist, so to say that type of comment is ridiculous. If he got beat by some slacker, it would be an appropriate comment.

I'd like to know the name of anyone who did 5 animal style Kung-Fu (or any other style of Kung Fu) that has ever beaten a Gracie.

Saji Jamakin
01-05-2006, 03:56 PM
I read the UFC rules and they state that small joint manipulation is not allowed. Doesn't that eliminate a lot of Aikido techniques?
How will Jason Delucia be able to use Aikido in a MMA competition?
I don't even think Shomen-ate is allowed.

Jorx
01-05-2006, 04:50 PM
Bla bla... it was allowed in the beginning however that's how the sport evolved. Anyway Jason is NOT fighting in the UFC now. I do not know the rules for that promotion which he is fighting in...

SmilingNage
01-05-2006, 05:20 PM
Perhaps the small joint breaks were dropped so mma organizations could get fighting licences in nevada, etc.

Not a big fan of watchn 2 grown men clammering about in a granny panties in a small ring. Nor do I feel it represents actual combat, but it is what what its, some brutal encounters with top notch athletes. Gimme me some eye gouges, bites, kicks to the jimmy, broken fingers, thats a real fight. Certainly wouldnt pay to go or watch one, but riding the stationary bike while watching spike tv's coverage of ufc is something I do every now and then.

wendyrowe
01-05-2006, 05:29 PM
I read the UFC rules and they state that small joint manipulation is not allowed. Doesn't that eliminate a lot of Aikido techniques?
How will Jason Delucia be able to use Aikido in a MMA competition?
I don't even think Shomen-ate is allowed.

Bla bla... it was allowed in the beginning however that's how the sport evolved. Anyway Jason is NOT fighting in the UFC now. I do not know the rules for that promotion which he is fighting in...

Cage Rage rules are the same as UFC, except for a weird new "open guard" rule that isn't particularly relevant to this discussion.

"No small joint manipulation" rules out grabbing a finger or two and cranking them, for instance, but doesn't rule out irimi and ikkyo and tons of Aikido techniques.

The only real question is whether we'll be able to recognize enough Aikido techniques when he's in there going against the highly resistant Cyborg for people to be able to say "Yes, Jason used Aikido" or even just, "Yes, I saw some Aikido in there," or whether the principles will be so buried amid a sea of "whatever works" that people won't notice it.

It'll be a little while before we get to see it in the US at all, since we have to wait for them to put up the video (a few days after the fight, if we're lucky). Maybe we'll be really lucky and someone covering the fight for CageWarriors.com will report on Aikido moves in the play-by-play. If you know anyone there that you might be able to influence to report on the Aikido aspect, that would be great.

jester
01-05-2006, 10:41 PM
How many people think that Aikido will look like Aikido in a fight?

James Davis
01-06-2006, 11:08 AM
We'll probably have to look pretty close. My sensei trains us to perform techniques with subtlety; sometimes observers don't get to know what happened. ;)

Mike Fugate
01-06-2006, 02:03 PM
Who wants to see Steven Seagal vs. Jason Delucia? I got 20 bucks on Take Sensei ;) :ki:

Mike Fugate
01-06-2006, 02:04 PM
Who wants to see Steven Seagal vs. Jason Delucia? I got 20 bucks on Take Sensei ;) :ki: :D

Roy Dean
01-06-2006, 02:13 PM
I'll take that bet. 20 bucks on DeLucia.

Ron Tisdale
01-06-2006, 02:50 PM
heh. I'm with Roy.

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
01-06-2006, 03:16 PM
I'd probably put my 20 on Jason as well.

Also, I think you will find that what goes on in the ring is pretty close to what happens in "real combat" from a close quarters combat perspective. This is why we in the military are studying MMA UFC style these days...not because we are bored and have nothing better to do with our time. Pretty much anything outside of grappling range we are either running away or using some other object that is much more lethal or immobilizing than "empty hand".

Ditto as well on what Wendy has to say about small joing manipulation...fingers mainly. Tons of other things that you can do from kotegaehsi, to toe holds and twisting knee locks etc.

The basic aiki princples will be there..they always are, but again, who cares if it is labeled aikido?

Dave Valdez. Great post as usual!

Also, those that are making light of Jason getting into the ring. Well I don't think you probably have ever been trained with a "professional". It would humble you to the point that you would not be makin these kind of comments about them. I don't think you'd last more than 15 seconds on your first irimi before the ref pulled the guy off you. There is much more skill in these guys than you think! Don't think they don't understand "aiki" principles...they do more than you think!

wendyrowe
01-06-2006, 03:36 PM
Who wants to see Steven Seagal vs. Jason Delucia? I got 20 bucks on Take Sensei ;) :ki: :D
Funny you should say that. The way the famous dojo challenge fight between Jason and Royce Gracie (the video is commonly known as "Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu" where the Kung Fu guy is wearing yellow trunks) came about was that Jason was camped out in town trying to fight Steven Seagal because of the challenge SS issued in Black Belt Magazine. He went to Steven Seagal's dojo every day and SS never accepted the challenge; but at least Jason got to watch a lot of Haruo Matsuoka Sensei's Aikido classes and take the Gracie challenge while he was there. The Gracie Challenge led to his UFC fights, starting him on the path to where he's at today. Everything happens for a reason.

So your suggesting that here might fit in even better than you'd thought!

Saji Jamakin
01-06-2006, 04:43 PM
Cage Rage rules are the same as UFC, except for a weird new "open guard" rule that isn't particularly relevant to this discussion.

"No small joint manipulation" rules out grabbing a finger or two and cranking them, for instance, but doesn't rule out irimi and ikkyo and tons of Aikido techniques.


Well then....it is possible to train in Aikido specifically for these types of matches. The only drawback is tha you have to include some type of offense in your strategy and Aikido is defensive relying on the opponents Ki to blend with or as in Tomiki to steal/snatch. I still remember the UFC reality show where we followed the MMA fighters throughout there training that in those matches turning the head in anyway was not allowed. So I looked in the rules I figured small joints were elbows, shoulders and wrists since I never see any type of that stuff being done in the MMA matches. Just arm-bars.

wendyrowe
01-06-2006, 05:12 PM
... The only drawback is tha you have to include some type of offense in your strategy and Aikido is defensive relying on the opponents Ki to blend with or as in Tomiki to steal/snatch...
But remember, in your defense you can bait your opponent into attacking in a predictable way, say by leaving an opening or by moving in a way that leads your opponent to choose a particular attack so you'll have him where you want him. And since the match keeps moving, it's not like two people standing there and one never being able to attack. Once the attack begins, one move leads to another and you can see everything you do as always defending against the attack he just made and setting him up to make his next attack something you'll be ready for. It's like in randori, where you might start out considering one person uki and one nage but after the first moves the role distinctions are lost.

Mike Fugate
01-06-2006, 05:39 PM
Funny you should say that. The way the famous dojo challenge fight between Jason and Royce Gracie (the video is commonly known as "Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu" where the Kung Fu guy is wearing yellow trunks) came about was that Jason was camped out in town trying to fight Steven Seagal because of the challenge SS issued in Black Belt Magazine. He went to Steven Seagal's dojo every day and SS never accepted the challenge; but at least Jason got to watch a lot of Haruo Matsuoka Sensei's Aikido classes and take the Gracie challenge while he was there. The Gracie Challenge led to his UFC fights, starting him on the path to where he's at today. Everything happens for a reason.

So your suggesting that here might fit in even better than you'd thought!
Wow, I was just messing around trying to lighten up this place, BUT this I did not know. You never know Seagal may have been busy making a movie. According to Seagal, many tried to defy him in Japan and tried to prove his Aikido ineffective but they were the ones proved wrong. Im sure Sean Ravens would know about the credibilty of the instance you are speaking of. Kewl Stuff, but I still say Seagal would kick his ass :ki:

xuzen
01-06-2006, 11:56 PM
Funny you should say that. The way the famous dojo challenge fight between Jason and Royce Gracie (the video is commonly known as "Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu" where the Kung Fu guy is wearing yellow trunks) came about was that Jason was camped out in town trying to fight Steven Seagal because of the challenge SS issued in Black Belt Magazine. He went to Steven Seagal's dojo every day and SS never accepted the challenge; but at least Jason got to watch a lot of Haruo Matsuoka Sensei's Aikido classes and take the Gracie challenge while he was there. The Gracie Challenge led to his UFC fights, starting him on the path to where he's at today. Everything happens for a reason.

So your suggesting that here might fit in even better than you'd thought!

Wendy, I saw the video. Just a question, was Jason already an aikido practitioner when that vidoe was taken or was he still a pure 5 animal kungfu stylist at that time?

Boon.

Jorx
01-07-2006, 03:29 AM
Just a note: wristlocks are allowed almost in every promotion. They just do not happen because these are low-percentage techniques. I do not know if ever a MMA match has ended due to a wristlock. Quite some in BJJ though - mostly gokyo type.

wendyrowe
01-07-2006, 05:52 AM
Wendy, I saw the video. Just a question, was Jason already an aikido practitioner when that vidoe was taken or was he still a pure 5 animal kungfu stylist at that time?

Boon.
At the time of the dojo challenge, Jason's highest rank was in 5 Animal Kung Fu, he called himself a Kung Fu practitioner, and he had not yet gone to Japan and been introduced to the Honbu.

What muddies the water slightly is that he was already studying martial arts when he was young (mainly tae kwan do first, but also kung fu, kenpo and uechi ryu), so he was never a "pure" anything thanks to the varied exposure. And says he saw O'Sensei on TV when he was around 8 or 9 and was very inspired by him. On aikidog.com he said that "it was easy to see mr.ueshiba wasn't relying on any one technique ,but a way .and i instinctively knew through constantly distilling this knowledge i would come to the same way." So you could say that he was a Kung Fu practitioner with Aiki tendencies even before he started training in Aikido.

JasonFDeLucia
01-07-2006, 08:23 AM
Who wants to see Steven Seagal vs. Jason Delucia? I got 20 bucks on Take Sensei ;) :ki:
i've always envisioned an empty handed match with rules of sumo ,judo ,or strictly sword hand , or any rules he decides .i never met the man but it would be an honor .

Mike Fugate
01-07-2006, 06:25 PM
Jason,
I was just trying to spice this place up since almost everyone has an opinion of Steven Seagal whether it be good or bad. lol. But After reading your comment about the situatuation I like ya. You appeared to be humble and not cocky, at least what I have seen. Most would assume a match with Seegal a joke, you said it would be an honor. Thats awsome, and yes I understand alot of what you have said since I have been reading up on your site. To me studying O-Mei Kungfu allowed me to better understand Aikido since these techniques are in Kung fu origanally. But to me Aikido is a very natural feeling art to my soul. :ki: Best of Luck in you match ;)

brent drubin
04-02-2011, 10:43 AM
too bad steven seagal is not as good an actor as he is a martial artist. as a matter of fact he is cheesey. he makes horrible movies and comes off as an egotistical person, making comments of whose ass he can kick. yeah...that's very aikido-like.

i think his best role in a film was "executive decision", where he gets killed in the first 10 minutes of the movie.

Janet Rosen
04-02-2011, 02:43 PM
Wow a five year old thread resurrected....

Michael Varin
04-02-2011, 06:47 PM
Wow a five year old thread resurrected....
Yes.

And one with such significant and insightful discussion...