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Chuck.Gordon
11-14-2005, 12:16 PM
Well, IMHO, ki in aikido is sort of a misnomer and overstatement. The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'.

However, due to influence of Tohei and others, the idea of ki in aikido has gotten popular and is an exploration in an of itself. However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems.

If you want to learn about ki or aiki in aikido, do aikido. If you want to do ki aikido, get into a good ki aikido school and study hard. Too bad George Simcox is gone. He was one of the very few aikidoka who 'got' ki.

If you want to dig deeper, take a look at Daito Ryu.

If you want to learn about chi, do Chi Gung or something of the sort.

If you want to learn about aiki, grab a sword and get into a good koryu dojo.

Ki, chi? Apples, oranges.

YMMV.

kironin
11-14-2005, 02:48 PM
If you want to learn about aiki, grab a sword and get into a good koryu dojo.

YMMV.


word from the dark side. :cool:

Craig

roosvelt
11-14-2005, 08:06 PM
<<However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems.
:
:
Ki, chi? Apples, oranges.>>

If O'sensei's jo-trick wasn't a demonstration of chi, I don't know what is ki then? Chi is Ki. Ki is Chi. You need to have Ki/Chi yourself first, then you can talk about AiKi/AiChi.

I do agree that Aikido doesn't teach Ki/Chi much.

David Yap
11-14-2005, 09:31 PM
I do agree that Aikido doesn't teach Ki/Chi much.

Hi Roosvelt,

First of all, who do you agree with?

Whether Ki is taught and how it is taught depends on the school (styles) and the teachers (shihan and instructors). I have not trained in Ki Aikido but the literatures and websites on it show that the system of training emphasize that the practitioners of the art acquire the feel and utilization of Ki at the shortest time. The system includes exercises for feeling Ki and tests for determining the level of skill.

The instructors in my Aikikai aikido do not talk (teach) about Ki. It does not mean that all of them do not have Ki. Ki is cultivated individually and acquired after long and proper training. In our system (or lack of system) Ki is absolutely esoteric - either one has it or does not have it. While we have 3rd dan instructors with subtle flowing Ki techniques and we also have 3rd /4th Dan who are devastating brutes. The sum of it is, "Aiki Do does mean different thing to different people" :rolleyes:

Best training

David Y

Olaf
11-15-2005, 02:30 AM
... It does not mean that all of them do not have Ki. Ki is cultivated individually and acquired after long and proper training. In our system (or lack of system) Ki is absolutely esoteric - either one has it or does not have it. ...
David Y

Well, I have yet to meet a person without Ki, unless he/she's dead already. Wether we cultivate "Ki" and use it more than others (maybe its possible, maybe we just like to believe in it) by studying the way of our choice.. that is a different question, I think.

Chuck.Gordon
11-15-2005, 05:41 AM
word from the dark side. :cool:

Craig

Heya Bro'! How you doing? You gonna be in the area when the delicate Flower and I come in to Austin (June-ish)?

cg

kironin
11-23-2005, 03:00 PM
Heya Bro'! How you doing? You gonna be in the area when the delicate Flower and I come in to Austin (June-ish)?
cg

Hey!Yeah, not going anywhere that I know of yet!
Love to see ya guys.

Been extremely busy working on building a business outside of my work so not much time (more like zero for the internet). And now I am also seriously building an Iaido program in Houston which I am enjoying tremendously maybe partly because I am in full control of it and partly because I have a good relationship with a teacher who I highly respect his depth of knowledge as well as his drive to continue to improve which is motivational for my own practice.

you guys a have great Turkey day with what fowl you can roast over there!

Craig

Mike Sigman
11-24-2005, 06:20 AM
Well, IMHO, ki in aikido is sort of a misnomer and overstatement. The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'.

However, due to influence of Tohei and others, the idea of ki in aikido has gotten popular and is an exploration in an of itself. However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems. Would it be too much to ask you to support this assertion with some facts, etc., Chuck? Since Ki and Chi are the same word, have the same kanji, interpenetrate a number of martial, medical, mundane, etc., systems, it would be interesting to hear you explain what the differences are. To me it's like hearing you say that there is a fundamental difference between the use of chopsticks in Japan from the use of chopsticks in China. If you want to learn about aiki, grab a sword and get into a good koryu dojo. ;) Sounds like you're trying to provoke people with "koryu snobbism", Chuck!! Ki, chi? Apples, oranges. And a little support for your assertions? I realize it gets tiresome with me asking for (never-delivered) support to some of your statements, Chuck, but I think that even I would blush after making a statement like you just made. Even the caveat "YMMV" doesn't mean you're above being asked for clarification.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

rob_liberti
11-24-2005, 07:13 AM
The "O" I breathe and the "O" within H2O I am about to shower with is fundimentally the same for sure too, but I think it is clear that the combination takes on many different properties from the principle parts.

The term "aiki" was borrowed from a sword school using it to describe okuden level (level of depth). I would certainly concede that having good mind/body integration is a large part of that depth. I certainly do not think it is the only aspect of that depth. There is also the aspect of intimately knowing and using the overall movement and timing. How that is approached, developed, and achieved along with good mind/body integration is different from school to school and from art to art in my experiences. (In that respect YMMV for sure!) Of course, if I saw a bunch of accomplished Chen style Tai Chi folks walk into an aikido dojo for the first time and start doing swuari waza kokyu tanden ho, ikkyo, iriminage or even the standard ukemi we take in aikido effortlessly without much instruction, I would have to change my opinion.

Rob

Mike Sigman
11-24-2005, 07:25 AM
I'm asking for specifics in the comparison and differences, not allusions,,,, if anyone can provide them.

FWIW

Mike

rob_liberti
11-24-2005, 08:19 AM
And I was clarifying what I believed you minunderstood about Chuck's post.

Enjoy your turkey...

Rob

Mike Sigman
11-24-2005, 10:59 AM
It is easy for some to complain when they never put their own stuff out there for public consumption, consideration, and criticism. Why the cheap shot at some of the people offering their opinions, Lynn. Is this the "Aiki-Speak" I hear so much about?

Mike

Mark Uttech
11-27-2005, 12:01 AM
Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge.

David Yap
11-27-2005, 04:26 AM
Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge.

Thanks for the observation, Mark. Perhaps you would like to share with us the reason for that difference. :D

David Y

Mark Uttech
11-27-2005, 05:56 AM
Ha ha. The reason seems to be just the fact.
In gassho.

Mike Sigman
11-27-2005, 06:38 AM
Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge. Well then, they must be totally different things, according to the wisdom some of the posts that I have seen. As Chuck Gordon said, "Apples, oranges".

I think we should make as our next topic "why there is so little progress in the deeper layers of martial arts". What are your thoughts???? ;^)

Mike

eyrie
11-27-2005, 06:42 AM
Isn't it obvious Mike? Because we're expected to steal what we do not know we do not know....

Mike Sigman
11-27-2005, 06:54 AM
Isn't it obvious Mike? Because we're expected to steal what we do not know we do not know.... << mouth falls open. brain melts>> Holy Smoke, Ignatius!!! You just played the "Trump Card"! :freaky:

Mike

rob_liberti
11-27-2005, 07:13 AM
Exactly my point.

"One-point is the center of gravity. Kokyu-dosa is to relax and to hug the person behind uke." are quoted from the book.


Roosvelt, I notice that you are offering a complaint without a proposed solution. How would you present the information in a way that does show better understanding?

My opinion is that "one-point" is one of those concepts that needs to be explained in a level appropriate way. So to a novice, thinking of it as the center of gravity is a good starting place. What suggestions would you offer for the next levels of understanding? (This question is open to everyone of course...)

Rob

P.S. water and air might be considered different enough to be apples and oranges in terms of some comparisons. I think we are all in agreement that the problem with attaining depth might have something to do with the willingness and ability to comprehend information presented.

Mike Sigman
11-27-2005, 12:07 PM
P.S. water and air might be considered different enough to be apples and oranges in terms of some comparisons. I think we are all in agreement that the problem with attaining depth might have something to do with the willingness and ability to comprehend information presented. Once again, Rob.... instead of going off on allusory tangents so much, how about requesting that Chuck explain *substantively* how qi and ki are actually two different things. Even in martial arts. There is a heavy tendency in Aikido to present "feelings" as "facts" and to then castigate anyone who questions the feelings. Since that process doesn't stand up to even casual logic, you should be applauding the idea of dealing with real-world facts instead of "feelings" and metaphors/allusions.

The other great cop-out is to claim "Sensei So-and-so" did something, thus proving the point. Anyone even remotely familiar with debate and pseudo-debate topics recognizes that old saw, too.

If someone is qualified to teach and wants to publicly *assert* things, they should also be enough in the real world to be able to defend what they say factually. There are many "teachers" in the martial arts world who hide behind the fluffery with assertions... here's a chance to help the martial arts... although I realize that's not a top priority with a lot of people who are more interested in "position" than anything else. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Rupert Atkinson
11-27-2005, 04:24 PM
Japanese chopsticks are pointed, while Chinese chopsticks have a rounder edge.

Not sure of relevance here, but Korean ones are squared-off flat :hypno:

Mike Sigman
11-27-2005, 04:29 PM
sigh.

Upyu
11-27-2005, 05:30 PM
Thought I'd interject a little fire into this debate...

I've been reading the new book by Kimura about Sagawa and it's been inserting new thoughts into my head.

Couple of interesting quotes by sagawa (and to be clear, I'm not sure if I buy into them exactly) were to the tune of his brand of bodyskill (which he labeled as aiki) had little/nothing to do with the "ki" of Aikido. I don't think he was referring to the "mystical" interpretation of "ki" either, but rather the breath related stuff that Mike talks about.
This does not mean that the "ki" stuff can be merely discarded. Sagawa himself supposedly did intensive breath training for about 3-4 years before concluding that practicing it was a waste of time (for him, though this could have also meant that he found it a waste of time to be practiced as a focused exercise)

ANother thing:
Kimura mentioned (and I dont know how much he exaggerated this) that he was able to hold his seniors down with power after about 3 years
After about 7-8 years he was able to hold them down without "power". (Im guessing structure/groundpath)
But Sagawa told him it was still no good, that he was still using "power".
This points to the fact that Kimura progressed from
strength -> martial/internal power, but Sagawa's was neither of these.
BUT, it was a path he took himself in order to reach the next stage.
So really, (getting ready for the hot seat ^^;) you could say where Tohei, or Shioda etc etc landed is really only the starting point for the deeper layers.

The conclusion to all of this mindless babble?
I don't think they're apples and oranges.
In fact there's parts that overlap tremendously, and the foundation to both Aiki, and the higher level of CMA JMA OMA OOMA MMA MMOMA ^^;
all require extreme training in painfully simple basics, which few really undertake these days.

Kimura (supposedly) did at least 1000 shiko a day to integrate his body, and said for him it was the daily training of this exercise that enabled him to eventually reach the next level in bodyskill.
(Ive found from my own training, you need to do this at least 200 times before your inner connections/nervous system really start getting a good workout)

If more people were willing to devote time to the "simple" exercises in these arts, I think we'd get voices that would have more concrete opinoins as to where the different arts' skills overlap and where they diverge. Anything else is just 能書き(nougaki, look it up, it describes what a lot in the MA world tend to do). :D

grondahl
11-28-2005, 04:37 AM
Kimura (supposedly) did at least 1000 shiko a day to integrate his body, and said for him it was the daily training of this exercise that enabled him to eventually reach the next level in bodyskill.
(Ive found from my own training, you need to do this at least 200 times before your inner connections/nervous system really start getting a good workout)


Is that Shiko as in "knee-walking" ?

//Peter

Upyu
11-28-2005, 05:34 AM
Is that Shiko as in "knee-walking" ?

//Peter
Nope, Shiko, as in the ceremonial leg raising you see sumo wrestlers do before each match. Most people think it's simply an exercise to open the kua/pelvic crease area and increase the leg/back strength, but I've found it goes much deeper than that(No doubt what sagawa hinted at). :)

Chuck.Gordon
11-28-2005, 08:07 AM
Hi MIke,

I'm not ignoring you, well, OK a little. I have no desire to delve into more pseudo debate with you. It bores me.I've given many answers and you either ignore or twist or change the subject.

I'm not sure why you post here, MIke. But, hey, it's a public board. Knock yourself out.

Craig, I'll e- you more info as our itinerary develops. We spent Turkeyday in the Czech Republic (Cesky Krumlov - Lovely town!). No turkey, but I feasted on some wonderful BBQ ribs ...

Carol, Hey girl! Where are you these days? And HOW are ya?

cg

rob_liberti
11-28-2005, 09:27 AM
The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'.

However, due to influence of Tohei and others, the idea of ki in aikido has gotten popular and is an exploration in an of itself. However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems.
Well you see my interpretation of that is that "the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido" - where "The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki," - "aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems".

The idea presented was as a compound - [like H20] - the way this depth is approached is different than looking at a principle component - [like the 0 I breathe].

In context - [the one actually presented by Chuck] the ideas can be as 'apples and oranges' as O and H20. I'm not making an 'allusion' here - just an explanation of the misunderstanding of the presented material - based on what I consider a failed analogy using chopstick and that Chuck indicated he felt his his message/explanation had been 'twisted'.

In _my_ opinion, I would say that looking at the chopsticks in different cultures is a poor analogy given the context presented. Not to beat a dead horse, but to add clarity - I suppose that if the chopsticks were used/created/investigated in some larger concept (a compound of some other thing) in _one_ of the cultures then we'd have a more appropriate analogy for the context of his message.

Back on track, I suppose that is the point about books. Not only is the written word inadequate to present such material but also _if_ you have an agenda, you _may_ be so enraptured by it that you _may_ be blinded by the message presented - as seems to be the case here. I would say that this often happens when so_and_so shihan demonstrates as well. Usually the person unable to receive the message is not blatantly refusing the information (as I suspect is the case here) but rather they have some part of the whole that they feel is tremendously important and are a bit stuck in the 'trees' to the point that they loose sight of the 'forest.' Writing a book to try to reach as many people at their level is quite a challenge. I would love to see a book called level-appropriate aikido, where the first chapters can be considered "toilet paper" by the people beyond that, and the last chapters are over all of our heads but give great direction. Maybe two books - one from the perspective of people who will want to get to a certain degree of surface-level ability before ever deciding to try one suggestion about internal power, and another book for people who want to start out focused on internal power. As far as I'm concerned, there are strong arguments for both cases - which _to me_ should be substantiated based on the quality of the students produced by the method.

Just my thoughts - Rob

Mike Sigman
11-28-2005, 01:21 PM
I'm not ignoring you, well, OK a little. I have no desire to delve into more pseudo debate with you. It bores me.I've given many answers and you either ignore or twist or change the subject. No, I haven't seen a single substantive or well-supported comment from you, Chuck. You simply assert and take swipes. If you go back in the archives and look at your posts on "ki", they're complete crap. The latest thing I've seen from you is that "Ki" is "intention". I think you're so used to living in a world where everybody's mysterious statement is accepted without comment that you're shocked when someone asks you for support to your statements. And if you look again at your posts, there is NO support, just an attempt to trivialize and a swipe. Oh... and yes, I admit you put in an elitist comment about koryu every chance you get, but I think that serves no purpose in any discussion of Ki. I'm not sure why you post here, MIke. But, hey, it's a public board. Knock yourself out.I'm sure you'd see a purpose if I agreed with you, Chuck. Right? So the question is... can you give ANY substantive comments about why ki and qi are "apples, oranges"? ANY?

Mike

Mike Sigman
11-28-2005, 01:25 PM
If you want to study Japanese budo, and learn about aiki and ki and all the other principles and ideas, then find a good teacher who teaches these ideas and practices. Study Japanese budo.

If, on the other hand, Chinese arts float your boat, then find a good Chinese style teacher and do a Chinese system.

However, trying to understand Japanese concepts through the medium of Chinese theory doesn't offer much info for most folks who are way beyond the level of most of the folks here. How would you know this, Chuck? Can you give ANY support other than assertion? Tell us what Ki is and then tell us what Qi is (since you're including an implied knowledge in your assertion). So far, you're still making assertions and trying to imply that you have the background to speak knowledgeably. I've got many years in Japanese arts and many years in Chinese arts, Chuck... I say you can't support your contentions with any facts, so you're in essence contributing to the problems for beginners, not helping them. Let's hear the facts for once.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
11-28-2005, 01:32 PM
Well you see my interpretation of that is that "the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido" - where "The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki," - "aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems".

The idea presented was as a compound - [like H20] - the way this depth is approached is different than looking at a principle component - [like the 0 I breathe].

In context - [the one actually presented by Chuck] the ideas can be as 'apples and oranges' as O and H20. I'm sure you're unaware of it, Rob, but the *spectrum* of ideas about ki/qi in Japanese and Chinese systems are the same. Tohei's approach is not really that new... it's also found in some areas of qi belief in China. I keep asking for some facts and neither you nor Chuck seem to have any. Chuck has bald, unsupported assertions, you have allusions and metaphors. Do you think Aikido would be better off with facts or with vaguely worded "beliefs" of all sorts? If you think spouting "beliefs" as facts is good, can you tell us who you think it is good for, other than people with an assumed status?

Regards,

Mike

rob_liberti
11-28-2005, 07:37 PM
I think facts are wonderful. It is a well known fact that the O in what I breathe and the O in what I drink is the same - regardless of culture. Sorry if are having trouble following the logic of the that metaphor - but I assure you that it is not _vague_. The basic idea is that things takes on different properties when they are combined with other things, like sand and glass (is that a "simile"). The *spectrum* of ideas about sand might also be the same in Japanese and Chinese, and yet I wouldn't compare Japanese glass to Chinese sand - even if the Chinese knew how to make better glass - and that's a fact. That is what what I understood him to be getting at. It's really not personal, if he were saying something I disagreed with I'd challenge him - it's happened before.

Rob

Mike Sigman
11-28-2005, 07:52 PM
I think facts are wonderful. It is a well known fact that the O in what I breathe and the O in what I drink is the same - regardless of culture. Sorry if are having trouble following the logic of the that metaphor - but I assure you that it is not _vague_. The basic idea is that things takes on different properties when they are combined with other things, like sand and glass (is that a "simile"). The *spectrum* of ideas about sand might also be the same in Japanese and Chinese, and yet I wouldn't compare Japanese glass to Chinese sand - even if the Chinese knew how to make better glass - and that's a fact. That is what what I understood him to be getting at. It's really not personal, if he were saying something I disagreed with I'd challenge him - it's happened before.So if you "understood" what Chuch said and you want to butt in, then tell me the difference between Ki and Qi, Rob. Period. Stop the silly comparisons as some sort of "fact". A comparison is not an analysis, Rob. Oh... and since it's now coming to a screeching halt because I'm holding you to facts, go ahead and attack me personally.

Mike

David Yap
11-28-2005, 09:46 PM
...the O in what I breathe and the O in what I drink is the same - regardless of culture...Things takes on different properties when they are combined with other things...

Hi guys,

Excuse me for butting in. I am trying to understand/expand this metaphor to compare "Ki" & Chi". We breathe in air but the blood cells in our lungs absorb only O2 and CO (carbon monoxide). The water we drink is H2O. The food that we consume contains carbohydrates (combinations of the carbon, oxygen and hydrogen atoms). So you are saying that the common element of "Ki" and/or "Chi" is the single atom of oxygen and "Ki" and/or "Chi" come in different forms (of energy) due to its various combinations with other atoms of carbon and hydrogen. Am I on track? But, IMO, the single atom of oxygen (O) as a single ingredient is of no use without combination of its own atom (O2 -the gas we need to live) and other atoms of carbon and hydrogen (the water and food).

Coming back to the comparison of chopsticks - Japanese version versus Chinese version versus Korean version. In the dining room, chopsticks are tools to bring food into mouths. While in the kitchen chopsticks are also used to put food into the cooking pots/pans. In the various oriental cultures, chopsticks come in various sizes and shapes for different intend and purpose and, of course, eating habits (e.g. Chinese push rice into their mouths from the bowls with the chopsticks while the Japanese use them as scoops to lift the rice from the bowls and into their mouths). The idea of this metaphor is to look at 'Ki" and/or "Chi" alone as a live energy form rather than at its applications. Am I right?

David Y

Mike Sigman
11-28-2005, 10:26 PM
Excuse me for butting in. I am trying to understand/expand this metaphor to compare "Ki" & Chi". Qi/Ki can be explained with words... it doesn't need cryptic metaphor-analysis, just plain words will work. When someone asserts that they are different things and they claim they are a knowledgeable instructor in arts that us Ki (Qi), I and a number of other people reading this forum would expect they can explain in plain English. If I was a student of one of these people and had an IQ bigger than double digits, I'd expect my "teacher" to be able to do so, also. ;) Coming back to the comparison of chopsticks - Japanese version versus Chinese version versus Korean version. In the dining room, chopsticks are tools to bring food into mouths. (snip) So bringing food to the mouth, holding them, two sticks, etc., are the salient points that they all agree in. Anyone getting hung up on fluted carvings, pointed ends, etc., is missing the salient points of what chopsticks actually are, wouldn't you agree?

Qi and Ki also have basic salient points... in fact, they have the SAME salient points because they're the same thing, are spelled with the same kanji, "Ki" is just the Japanese pronunciation of "Qi", and so on. If someone is claiming that they are somehow different, as Chuck did, I'm asking for the particulars which, not surprisingly, are not forthcoming. ;)

Regards,

Mike

SeiserL
11-28-2005, 10:30 PM
I have to agree with Mike, IMHO Chi and Ki are the same thing, just different languages.

But what does this have to do with Carol's books?

David Yap
11-29-2005, 01:11 AM
<snip>... If I was a student of one of these people and had an IQ bigger than double digits, I'd expect my "teacher" to be able to do so, also. ;) ...<snip>

This is the danger of present instructions. In the old old days of masters and apprentices (servants), the system was geared towards growing/cultivating the best of the trade and weeding out weak and those who (in the first place) had no passion for the trade/skill/profession. The objective was that quality and efficiency could only get better. Competition was one form of eliminations.
In old old days, the lack of skill and understanding in ones trade (especially in MA) could even result in ones premature death.

Aikido is propagated - quantity first, quality maybe.

Just my observation.

David Y

eyrie
11-29-2005, 02:34 AM
Rubbish. I think it is also easy to hide (one's lack of knowledge) behind the traditional method of teaching... ;)

David Yap
11-29-2005, 04:52 AM
Rubbish. I think it is also easy to hide (one's lack of knowledge) behind the traditional method of teaching... ;)

Yes. In the absence of competition it is indeed easy to hide (one's lack of knowledge) behind the traditional method of teaching. This accounts for the numerous "shodan-startup" aikido dojo all over the world. :D

David Y

ian
11-29-2005, 05:07 AM
If you want to study Japanese budo, and learn about aiki and ki and all the other principles and ideas, then find a good teacher who teaches these ideas and practices. Study Japanese budo.

I'm sorry Chuck, although I have alot of respect for many of your posts and feel you make a valuable contribution to aikiweb I disagree with this point entirely. To think there is this massive seperation between chinese and japanese martial arts is just false. (and I also believe, as many do, that not everything that Ueshiba was capable of within his aikido was transferred to his students). Despite this, I don't think many people are learning aikido as a Japanese cultural investigation - they want to know the real universal principles behind it; to presume physical or energetic principles in China and Japan are different seems a bit strange. Or maybe you don't see that aikido addresses any universal principles? I suppose pretty much everyone (inc. the original poster) is getting a bit bored with this now!

Anyway, nice while it lasted. I'm sure we'll all argue again next time this thread comes round! :)


P.S. my mistake - I did read one of Carol's books (ki exercises in...). I thought it the content was OK and the style and presentation very original and useful, but not necessarily a good coverage of ki. Although I borrowed it and didn't end up buying it I think it is a useful book for a beginner/intermediate or teacher. Maybe our expectations of ki explanaition in aikido only go back as far as Tohei. Chinese systems (which originated the whole chi/ki concept) have been accepted around 4000 years now. It's a bit like reading a copy of 'Watchtower' and thinking you know everything about christianity.

rob_liberti
11-29-2005, 07:23 AM
No need for attack - just clarity.

Okay, reading comprehension time: Go back and READ Chuck's post. He was NOT saying Ki and Chi are different things in isolation in that post. He was talking about the compound of aiki.

Drop the persecution complex. It's okay, we all love you.

What the heck is this nonsense about "butting in" in a public forum?!

Rob

Mike Sigman
11-29-2005, 09:47 AM
No need for attack - just clarity.

Okay, reading comprehension time: Go back and READ Chuck's post. He was NOT saying Ki and Chi are different things in isolation in that post. He was talking about the compound of aiki. In other words, despite being directly asked, time after time, you cannot offer any substance or logic.... you just keep parroting about "compounds". If you know it and aren't just bullshitting, Rob, you or Chuck can explain it. Ever heard of "I call you" in card playing? Call. I've never had to "call" so many times in my life with so little substantive response.

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
11-29-2005, 09:51 AM
I have to agree with Mike, IMHO Chi and Ki are the same thing, just different languages.

But what does this have to do with Carol's books?Carol's book was the starting topic. Frankly, if you really want to learn how to do/use the physical phenomena of Ki (if you can't feel the results, why do obviously physical "ki tests"?), I don't see where Carol's books will help that much. I actually have one (or maybe two) in my library. There's more to it than just "doing exercises". I don't care how carefully you copy the wave of the magician's hands over the hat, if you don't know more than that you'll never produce a rabbit. ;^) Easy to test and show.

FWIW

Mike

rob_liberti
11-29-2005, 03:41 PM
If you continue to "call" me on something that wasn't said, I expect you'll remain frustrated. Neither Chuck NOR I posted that ki and chi are different in isolation. He wrote about ki as part of aiki. It was the first paragraph of his post. I won't bother to quote it again. The rest of his statements were in that context. Then you took some of his statements later on in the post out of context and challenged them as if he didn't write his first paragraph. I can't help you understand that any better. If you are looking for me to acknowledge that ki and chi are the different culture's word for the same thing, no problem. I made that point pretty clear with the oxygen analogy. But whatever.
Rob

Mike Sigman
11-29-2005, 03:48 PM
If you continue to "call" me on something that wasn't said, I expect you'll remain frustrated. Explain how Ki and Qi are different in "compounds", Rob, since you said you understood what he was saying and Chuck obviously is in a predicament where he can't explain his pompous assertions himself. If you want to jump in with how you understood him, then explain it factually, not with more vagaries and allusions.

Mike

PeterR
11-29-2005, 06:31 PM
Aiki vs Tenki vs Genki - does ki mean the same thing in any of these compounds?

There are a large number of meanings of Ki in the Japanese language with context and its place in a compound being quite important. Really don't know if this is also true in Chinese but I suspect it is.

I've heard Ki used in isolation for everything from fighting spirit to the more esoteric. However for Aikido its role in the Aiki compound is more important.

roosvelt
11-29-2005, 07:08 PM
Aiki vs Tenki vs Genki - does ki mean the same thing in any of these compounds?

There are a large number of meanings of Ki in the Japanese language with context and its place in a compound being quite important. Really don't know if this is also true in Chinese but I suspect it is.

I've heard Ki used in isolation for everything from fighting spirit to the more esoteric. However for Aikido its role in the Aiki compound is more important.

For a laugh: A Genie

A man walks into a restaurant with a full-grown ostrich behind him.

The waitress asks for their orders.

The man says, "A hamburger, fries and a coke," and turns to the ostrich, "What's yours?"

"I'll have the same," says the ostrich.

A short time later the waitress returns with the order.

"That will be $9.40 please," and the man reaches into his pocket and pulls out the exact change for payment.

The next day, the man and the ostrich come again and the man says, "A hamburger, fries, and a coke."

The ostrich says, "I'll have the same."

Again the man reaches into his pocket and pays with exact change.

This becomes routine until, the two enter again.

"The usual?" asks the waitress.

"No, this is Friday night, so I will have a steak, baked potato, and salad," says the man.

"Same," says the ostrich.

Shortly the waitress brings the order and says, "That will be $32.62."

Once again the man pulls the exact change out of his pocket and places it on the table.



The waitress can't hold back her curiosity any longer.

"Excuse me, sir. How do you manage to always come up with the exact change out of your pocket every time?"

"Well," says the man, "several years ago I was cleaning the attic and found an old lamp. When I rubbed it a Genie appeared and offered me two wishes.



My first wish was that if I ever had to pay for anything, I would just put my hand in my pocket and the right amount of money would always be there."

"That's brilliant!" says the waitress. "Most people would wish for a million dollars or something, but you'll always be as rich as you want for as long as you live!"

"That's right. Whether it's a gallon of milk or a Rolls Royce, the exact money is always there," says the man.

The waitress asks, "But, sir, what's with the ostrich?"

The man sighs, pauses, and answers, "My second wish was for a tall chick with long legs who agrees with everything I say."

------------------------------------------------------------

If we start playing language games, I can say "Chinese chick", "Japanese chick" is apple and orange. Heck, i can even say "Japanese chick", "Japanese chick" is apple and orange.

But we all know the man wanted a "chick" not a "chick" in the joke. So does everyone in this thread about what "ki"/"chi" we talk about.

Upyu
11-29-2005, 08:40 PM
Aiki vs Tenki vs Genki - does ki mean the same thing in any of these compounds?

There are a large number of meanings of Ki in the Japanese language with context and its place in a compound being quite important. Really don't know if this is also true in Chinese but I suspect it is.

ってかさ、こんなの当たり前じゃん?言うまでもないと思うけど :p  

I think Mike was referring to Ki, as its referred to in Aiki, and in the martial "Qi" context (as it exists in the Chinese language).

Just curious Peter, you say it's an important connotation, would you mind elaborating on this?

Mary Eastland
11-29-2005, 08:45 PM
Two questions....does the exact change include the tip.?....and why did he not ask for a relationship with a woman?...it would have been so much more aiki to really communicate what he needed. ;o)
Mary

Mike Sigman
11-29-2005, 09:02 PM
I don't think the argument is about the semantics of language, but about what ki is and what chi is, *functionally*. So far, I've seen the assertion that the ki and qi are "apples, oranges" because of usage... not this diversion into semantics. I'm asking for someone to explain the functional difference. Since Chuck Gordon made the assertion (by the way, his declarative statements about ki, etc., are in the AikiWeb archives if anyone wants to look), I asked him to clarify. Since Rob Liberti stated that he "understands", I've asked him to clarify. I'd like to see these "teachers" explain the assertions that involve the basic "aiki" principle that they publicly claim credentials in. If they're ready to teach and put out a shingle, they should be ready to demonstrate ki/qi (whichever) explicatively and to talk about it knowledgeably. I think it's that simple, really. If I was teaching music and music theory, I'd expect to be held to the same expectations, frankly. This stuff ain't magic. Er... well, if someone thinks it is...... let's hear that, too. ;^)

FWIW

Mike

PeterR
11-29-2005, 09:21 PM
Just curious Peter, you say it's an important connotation, would you mind elaborating on this?
That's a whole new thread. I'm just not convinced that the Ki expressed in Ki tests and the like reflects the Ki in Aiki which I think is more of a mental construct. But that's an opinion I've expressed and been taken to task for before.

The old meaning of Aiki is described as two sword masters standing absolutely still waiting for an opening. In this case there is no contact. Again in my opinion, the sensitivity to your opponent defines the aiki techniques.

Dragging the thread back to its first off topic tangent I tend to agree that the kanji is a very strong anchor between the two languages. Same kanji tends to have analogous meanings in both languages. There may be cultural nuances and there are several examples of added meanings but I suspect Ki/Chi is not affected very much by the former or the latter. For the Chinese martial linguists out there I have a question. Among the various Chinese martial arts does Chi have a uniform meaning or does the debate rage there too? I'll bet it rages.

And dragging still further on topic. I've read one of Carol's books and found it fine for what it is meant to be. There was no attempt to pretend it was anything other that what it was. Some may find it exactly what they need others not. I'm one of the latter but then again I never did get that much out of martial arts books in general.

Mike Sigman
11-29-2005, 09:52 PM
That's a whole new thread. I'm just not convinced that the Ki expressed in Ki tests and the like reflects the Ki in Aiki which I think is more of a mental construct. But that's an opinion I've expressed and been taken to task for before.

The old meaning of Aiki is described as two sword masters standing absolutely still waiting for an opening. In this case there is no contact. Again in my opinion, the sensitivity to your opponent defines the aiki techniques. I don't know of any "old meaning" that says that. Aiki literally is a blending of forces and it's done on a far more subtle level than most people realize, not the "blending with a technique" that is so coarsely passed off as "aiki do". Try this from an Aikido Journal interview with Minoru Inaba:

Even though you focus the energy in your lower abdomen, you will not be able to move the energy to the area where you need it right away. You have to think about how you are going to move it. You have to think about two things, gathering and filling up the power, and then moving the power to where the opponent will attack. Also if you have a weapon, you have to project energy through the weapon. If you understand this point, you'll know how to train and what you need to develop. At the same moment you meet your opponent, you focus on your abdomen (hara) and project your ki where you need it. The result will be that you will shut down your opponent's power. I understand that as the power of "aiki." Dragging the thread back to its first off topic tangent I tend to agree that the kanji is a very strong anchor between the two languages. Same kanji tends to have analogous meanings in both languages. There may be cultural nuances and there are several examples of added meanings but I suspect Ki/Chi is not affected very much by the former or the latter. For the Chinese martial linguists out there I have a question. Among the various Chinese martial arts does Chi have a uniform meaning or does the debate rage there too? I'll bet it rages. "Chi" can mean "air".... but if you're a martial arts "expert" who "teaches" and you insist that is the meaning, then you are a lost soul indeed, Peter. The "debate rages" only among the amateurs, as far as I know. The aspects of Chi (Qi) are pretty well established from the moderate levels on up. I.e., let's not suppose a "debate rages" at reasonable levels of expertise just because it rages at lower levels.

FWIW

Mike

PeterR
11-29-2005, 10:41 PM
I don't know of any "old meaning" that says that. Aiki literally is a blending of forces and it's done on a far more subtle level than most people realize, not the "blending with a technique" that is so coarsely passed off as "aiki do". Try this from an Aikido Journal interview with Minoru Inaba:
The quotes are always interesting and AikidoJournal is a great source of them. Shishida Fumiaki is a Professor of Budo History at Waseda Daigaku. http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=626

I can't remember if it was him who told me this directly or I read it elsewhere but in any case the relevant point is below.


Aiki, the core concept of aikido, can be traced back to martial arts literature of the Edo era. According to Toka Mondo (Candlelight Discussion), written by the master of Kito-ryu Jujutsu in 1764, aiki means that two fighters come to a standstill in a martial arts bout when they have focused their attention on each other's breathing. Many other authors in the 1800's gave similar definitions. However, the volume entitled Budo-hiketsu Aiki no Jutsu (Secret Keys to Martial Arts Techniques) published in 1892 gave a new definition of the term. It says that aiki is the ultimate goal in the study of martial arts and may be accomplished by "taking a step ahead of the enemy." According to the volume, the prerequisites for such a preemptive move are to read the enemy's mind and use a battle cry. Unfortunately, no details on specific exercises have been recorded.

He goes on to say.


It is no longer possible to reconstruct the precise definition of aiki in the Daito-ryu school of jujutsu. This is primarily because Takeda closely guarded his technical secrets, as earlier martial arts practitioners had done, and chose not to transcribe his teachings in written form. However, Nenokichi Sagawa, one of Takeda's closest followers, mentions that it was mentioned sporadically in Takeda's 1913 notebook, "Exercise aiki". This suggests that Daito-ryu Jujutsu practitioners had used the term aiki and practiced techniques developed through this concept even before they changed the name of their school to Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu. Nevertheless, Takeda's failure to leave a clear-cut definition of aiki led to ambiguity in Ueshiba's interpretation, although Takeda still appointed Ueshiba to the important post of acting instructor. Later, as Ueshiba's school grew, his disciples and followers added some new meanings to aiki to compensate for the ambiguity. Since the term is composed of a combination of two Chinese characters-ai (unification) and ki (spirit or mind: they decided that aikido is a way to become one with the universe or harmonize with the movement and rhythm of nature.
.

Needless to say I don't consider Aiki a blending with technique or teach that Ki means air in a martial context. But you knew that right?

Mike Sigman
11-29-2005, 11:00 PM
Aiki, the core concept of aikido, can be traced back to martial arts literature of the Edo era. According to Toka Mondo (Candlelight Discussion), written by the master of Kito-ryu Jujutsu in 1764, aiki means that two fighters come to a standstill in a martial arts bout when they have focused their attention on each other's breathing. Many other authors in the 1800's gave similar definitions. However, the volume entitled Budo-hiketsu Aiki no Jutsu (Secret Keys to Martial Arts Techniques) published in 1892 gave a new definition of the term. It says that aiki is the ultimate goal in the study of martial arts and may be accomplished by "taking a step ahead of the enemy." According to the volume, the prerequisites for such a preemptive move are to read the enemy's mind and use a battle cry. Unfortunately, no details on specific exercises have been recorded.[/i] I don't have a quarrel with either one of those definitions, per se, because I immediately got rid of the "focused their attention on each other's breathing" and replaced it with "focused their attention on each other's 'ki' ('kokyu' would also fit). In other words, the idea of the neutralizing melding of forces at a high level is still there, if you see my point. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that it's another case of a translator misleading you because his own understanding wasn't complete. Inaba's idea of "aiki" is actually the same thing, but it's very highly explicative and applicable to actual Aiki usage. And it's the same thing Sunadomari says. But you don't see it, do you? Your later quotation referring to how it is nature's harmony is actually talking about the same thing, too. It's right in front of you. Needless to say I don't consider Aiki a blending with technique or teach that Ki means air in a martial context. But you knew that right? No, I didn't know that. I know your views on kokyu, which are archived, and of course anyone understanding the relationship between kokyu and ki can extrapolate what you know fairly easily. ;)

It's a nice quote, but for sheer substance and useful information, I would recommend people look up the interview with Inaba http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=107 and go to that section I quoted from. It's very blunt, very true, and very useful.

Regards,

Mike

David Yap
11-30-2005, 12:58 AM
Aiki vs Tenki vs Genki - does ki mean the same thing in any of these compounds?

There are a large number of meanings of Ki in the Japanese language with context and its place in a compound being quite important. Really don't know if this is also true in Chinese but I suspect it is.

Hi Peter,

As a Chinese (Cantonese to be specific) but not neccesarily a Chinese scholar, I agree that the character/kanji "Ki" or "Chi" or "Qi" or "Hei" is seldom used in isolation. The same goes for all the characters.

This is not like the "O" we breathe but correctly the O2 we breathe in, the CO2 we breathe out, the H2O we drink, the CO that kills our brain cells, the pungent SO2 that we smell, the C12H22O11 that we consume. :D

David Y

David Yap
11-30-2005, 01:33 AM
snip...I suppose pretty much everyone (inc. the original poster) is getting a bit bored with this now!

Not at all, Ian.

I've already found out that the book "Ki in Aikido" is out-of-print. Looking at the whole picture, I believe the arguments are over two or more different things. I'm amused rather than bored. I think the arguments are:

Is the "Ki" in a JMA same as the "Chi" or "Qi" in CMA? Everyone agrees that it is, in the same context.
Then, is the "Ki" in aikido same as the "Ki"/"Chi" in both JMA/CMA?
Or, is the argument over the intrinsic "ki" the enery or the philosophical/spiritual "ki" as in Aiki-Do?
Or is it all of the above or none of the above?

Amused or confused? :D

David Y

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 07:38 AM
Then, is the "Ki" in aikido same as the "Ki"/"Chi" in both JMA/CMA? And if someone thinks it's not, could they give something other than just an assertion or a vague comparison/allusion/metaphor, etc., based on the fact that they are a "teacher" and they said so????

;)

Mike

roosvelt
11-30-2005, 08:23 AM
Among the various Chinese martial arts does Chi have a uniform meaning or does the debate rage there too? I'll bet it rages.



No. There is no arugument in CMA about what is Chi. They only aruge which style method is the best to get Chi stronger, faster and safer.

Chi is something real and you can feel it and test it.

If you pull a truck with your body, it doesn't demonstrate that you know how to use Chi. If you can pull a truck with your iron crotch, you surely know how to use Chi. If you break 5 bricks in a stack, it doesn't demonstrate that you know how to use Chi. But if you only break the brick in the middle of the stack every time, you surely know how to use Chi. If you bench press 200lb, it doesn't demonstrate that you know how to use Chi. If you lift it with your pinky, you sure know how to use Chi.

A person who knows Chi can test another person by pushing hands in low level. It's said a person can tell anohter's Chi without touching in high level. I don't know how. But I'm told if you're in that level you'd know.

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 08:43 AM
At the same moment you meet your opponent, you focus on your abdomen (hara) and project your ki where you need it. The result will be that you will shut down your opponent's power. I understand that as the power of "aiki."

I think from the quote above, Peter's quotes, and other discussions (including the new book on Sagawa Sensei), it's pretty clear that the term 'aiki' is what was specific to Daito ryu, and to much of aikido as well. It has been noted in the past that Tohei Sensei went outside to get his interpretation of 'ki', and used that for his aikido. I've said basically the same thing as Chuck about 'aiki' being the focal point, and not just 'ki'. There is a clear historical record of this, even in the material Mike quoted.

Tatsuo Kimura makes it pretty clear that his understanding of 'aiki' shifted over time through keiko and the guidance of Sagawa Sensei. If I remember correctly, he also draws a distinction between 'ki' as used in some styles of aikido, and 'aiki'.

Now, perhaps Chuck pushed the distinctions a bit too far later in his post, but what I see him speaking for is context. Personally, I think this quibbling over semantics not very usefull, but the quotes it has brought out are extremely usefull (some of which actually support Chuck's main point, if I understand him correctly). And the reference to Koryu isn't an appeal to snobbery...it has been pretty clearly established that the history of the use of the word 'aiki' in Japanese martial arts is rooted in the koryu, as established by some of the quotes above.

Has anyone else read Tatsuo Kimura's book about his training with Sagawa Sensei? Can someone give a good description of the Sumo exercise mentioned? I've seen it of course, but I'd be most interested in a clear description of the correct posture and movements.

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 09:28 AM
I think from the quote above, Peter's quotes, and other discussions (including the new book on Sagawa Sensei), it's pretty clear that the term 'aiki' is what was specific to Daito ryu, and to much of aikido as well. Ron, you may want to do a Google search and some outside reading on "aiki" before you make a statement like that. IMO. It has been noted in the past that Tohei Sensei went outside to get his interpretation of 'ki', and used that for his aikido. I've said basically the same thing as Chuck about 'aiki' being the focal point, and not just 'ki'. There is a clear historical record of this, even in the material Mike quoted. Ron, "Aiki" is just a way to use one of the variants of ki. It is not something only found in Japanese martial arts, it is also found in Chinese martial arts. Chuck attempts to imply that there is a separation of ki usages and meanings which necessitates someone only being an expert in Japanese martial arts (preferably "koryu") before they can comment on these things. It's an attempt to trivialize anything other than his own view... AND most importantly, he gives no supporting facts, only pompous assertion. Tatsuo Kimura makes it pretty clear that his understanding of 'aiki' shifted over time through keiko and the guidance of Sagawa Sensei. If I remember correctly, he also draws a distinction between 'ki' as used in some styles of aikido, and 'aiki'. Strange, just the word "aiki" tells you it is different from "ki", Ron! However, Ki is the basic element of "aiki". You can't "aiki" unless you really have Ki. The question is how this "compound" is any different from the manipulation of jin and qi in Chinese martial arts.... it's not! But if someone wants to argue it is, let's see the supporting facts and discussions. So far, all I see are opinions and feelings and misunderstandings of translations presented as facts. I'm asking for more. Now, perhaps Chuck pushed the distinctions a bit too far later in his post, but what I see him speaking for is context. Personally, I think this quibbling over semantics not very usefull, but the quotes it has brought out are extremely usefull (some of which actually support Chuck's main point, if I understand him correctly). OK Ron, then if you understand Chuck's main point, then explain it with some facts about how there is a difference between the Japanese and Chinese usages of Ki. I'm glad to see you stepped up. And the reference to Koryu isn't an appeal to snobbery...it has been pretty clearly established that the history of the use of the word 'aiki' in Japanese martial arts is rooted in the koryu, as established by some of the quotes above. Pooh... Chuck already has a reputation as a "Koryu Wanker"; let's don't be silly and argue the obvious. Go pull a number of his back-posts and watch how often he brings it up.

When you say "it has been pretty clearly established", I immediately grab my wallet tightly, Ron. ;^) Look at writings from the Koryu that are obviously borrowed from Chinese Buddhist martial and religious thought. I.e., if a whiff of "aiki" can be found in the Koryu, that doesn't mean it's of Japanese origin by any means at all. The concept that is being called "aiki" is not unique to Aikido, Daito-Ryu, Jiujitsu Ryu, or Japan, Ron. Consider the implications! I'm asking for a substantive discussion of exactly where there is a difference, as Chuck, Rob, and now you seem to believe. No vague allusions. No "here's my opinions and feelings, which are very strong and I'm an instructor"... none of that. I keep asking for facts and I haven't seen ANY compelling facts indicating that Ki and Chi are "apples, oranges". Has anyone else read Tatsuo Kimura's book about his training with Sagawa Sensei? Can someone give a good description of the Sumo exercise mentioned? I've seen it of course, but I'd be most interested in a clear description of the correct posture and movements. We've been having an excellent discussion of some of that on the QiJing List and Rob John has made some significant remarks. Let's hope he can be induced to mention some of it here, for the edification of those who are really interested.

All the Best.

Mike

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 02:03 PM
Ron, you may want to do a Google search and some outside reading on "aiki" before you make a statement like that. IMO.

9x% of such a search turns up BS. The rest are references to Daito ryu, Aikido, Koryu. Both yawara and weapons based koryu. And it's pretty obvious in what way its being used here.

Ron, "Aiki" is just a way to use one of the variants of ki.

You and I basically agree.

It is not something only found in Japanese martial arts, it is also found in Chinese martial arts.

You and I basically agree.

Chuck attempts to imply that there is a separation of ki usages and meanings which necessitates someone only being an expert in Japanese martial arts (preferably "koryu") before they can comment on these things.

Chuck said no such thing. I do think the apples and oranges comment was going a bit far, but stressing the use of 'aiki' as opposed to just 'ki' is perfectly appropriate for the context of this conversation. You constantly insist on these devious readings of people's words. Fine. You run with it, baby. I don't buy it for a second.

It's an attempt to trivialize anything other than his own view...

I most emphatically disagree. He did no such thing. That is only your assertion, your interpretation of his words. Welcome to it, but it doesn't bind me, or Chuck.

AND most importantly, he gives no supporting facts, only pompous assertion. Strange, just the word "aiki" tells you it is different from "ki", Ron!

Right, which is all I am saying. Nothing more. So we can move on now, right?

However, Ki is the basic element of "aiki". You can't "aiki" unless you really have Ki. The question is how this "compound" is any different from the manipulation of jin and qi in Chinese martial arts.... it's not!

Well, that's what we are exploring. You've already come to your conclusions, and I tend to think personally that you are probably right. But my base is not in the chinese martial arts...so I'm focusing on the use in Daito ryu and associated arts. That's all.

But if someone wants to argue it is, let's see the supporting facts and discussions. So far, all I see are opinions and feelings and misunderstandings of translations presented as facts. I'm asking for more.

Well, that might be the problem right there. You think someone wants to **argue** it. Personally, I don't. Do you have anything of value as to the sumotori exercise? That would be a usefull discussion for me, which is why I asked the question. The rest is just arguing, semantics, and drivel to me.

OK Ron, then if you understand Chuck's main point, then explain it with some facts about how there is a difference between the Japanese and Chinese usages of Ki.

I don't think that was Chuck's main point. I think his main point was 'aiki' as opposed to just 'ki'. And I gave my thoughts in the previous post, and in other posts on other threads.

I'm glad to see you stepped up. Pooh... Chuck already has a reputation as a "Koryu Wanker"; let's don't be silly and argue the obvious. Go pull a number of his back-posts and watch how often he brings it up.

Pooh yourself. You constantly attibute motivations and cast aspersions [like koryu wanker] around. But as much as you know about chinese arts, and modern japansese arts, I've yet to see you show any knowledge what-so-ever about koryu. So I'll go with the 'wankers', when it comes to koryu, thank you. Oh, pull up some of your posts...see how often you bring up ki. See how often you challenge people to define it, to use it in a sentance, blah blah blah. From now on, can we call you a 'ki wanker'? ;)

When you say "it has been pretty clearly established", I immediately grab my wallet tightly, Ron. ;^) Look at writings from the Koryu that are obviously borrowed from Chinese Buddhist martial and religious thought. I.e., if a whiff of "aiki" can be found in the Koryu, that doesn't mean it's of Japanese origin by any means at all.

What was it Regan used to say...'well there you go again'. This is not an attempt to divorce the roots of pretty much all of Japanese culture from Chinese culture. It is not an attempt to play the culture game and say that Japanese is better than Chinese. ***I never said that***. In terms of this discussion, and specifically aikido, aiki has the context I gave it. Does it go further back, into some chinese origin at some point? Well, how obvious! Now, can we get back on track?

Do you have anything to say about the sumotori exercise?

Best,
Ron

Adman
11-30-2005, 02:16 PM
Hi Ron,

Until we hear from someone like Rob John, maybe this link will help:
How to train sum (http://shiroikuma.com/peiji/keiko.htm)

thanks,
Adam

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 02:31 PM
Thanks Adam! Most usefull!

Best,
Ron

PS Just added to my favorites!

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 03:05 PM
9x% of such a search turns up BS. The rest are references to Daito ryu, Aikido, Koryu. Both yawara and weapons based koryu. And it's pretty obvious in what way its being used here. It's not obvious to me that there is any great difference in all those, Ron. So tell me how they're different.Chuck said no such thing. I do think the apples and oranges comment was going a bit far, but stressing the use of 'aiki' as opposed to just 'ki' is perfectly appropriate for the context of this conversation. You constantly insist on these devious readings of people's words. Fine. You run with it, baby. I don't buy it for a second. What devious reading are you talking about, Ron? Did he say that Ki and Qi were apples and oranges or not????????????????? If he did, then why are you saying "devious reading"????? Well, that's what we are exploring. You've already come to your conclusions, and I tend to think personally that you are probably right. But my base is not in the chinese martial arts...so I'm focusing on the use in Daito ryu and associated arts. That's all. So..... tell me how the use in Daito Ryu, associated arts, etc., is different from what is used in Chinese martial arts, Ron. That's the claim by Chuck which you indicate that you understand. That's what I'm asking for, in the light of Chuck's assertion. Set me straight if you think my reading of his claim to a difference was "devious".Well, that might be the problem right there. You think someone wants to **argue** it. Personally, I don't. Do you have anything of value as to the sumotori exercise? That would be a usefull discussion for me, which is why I asked the question. The rest is just arguing, semantics, and drivel to me. Wait a minute... look at it from my side for a second... Chuck makes a stupid assertion, I call for support of that assertion, and you put it on me for wanting to "argue it". Do you see how absurd this looks? You're trying to fault me personally... yet you make not even a tiny call for Chuck to clarify. This is the sort of "round up the wagons" crap I'm talking about that exists in the Aikido world. Let's see a call for Chuck to explain himself... but wait, since we know he can't do it, let's defend the fort. ;) I don't think that was Chuck's main point. I think his main point was 'aiki' as opposed to just 'ki'. And I gave my thoughts in the previous post, and in other posts on other threads. So there is no "aiki" in Chinese martial arts, eh? BTW, did you notice how Inaba Sensei's comments were tossed in favor of what Rehse thought he already knew, using a certain mistranslation? Want to comment about his favored translation? Pooh yourself. You constantly attibute motivations and cast aspersions [like koryu wanker] around. But as much as you know about chinese arts, and modern japansese arts, I've yet to see you show any knowledge what-so-ever about koryu. I've shown that the "Koryu" heavily use Chinese Buddhist martial training and ideas.... something that I doubt is in any of the archives of AikiWeb. Yet, when the "Koryu Wankers" continue to insist that their arts are the wellsprings of "true Japanese martial arts", that Chinese relationship is pretended to not exist. If Chuck and the other Koryu guys want to play that they have an in to the real secret Japanese stuff, they're standing naked in church. It doesn't fly. In other words, the thing I'm doing wrong here, for the main, in these posts is to tell some of the role-players that the "I've got a secret" stuff won't fly and to put up or shut up. So I'll go with the 'wankers', when it comes to koryu, thank you. Oh, pull up some of your posts...see how often you bring up ki. See how often you challenge people to define it, to use it in a sentance, blah blah blah. From now on, can we call you a 'ki wanker'? ;) Hey.... I admit it. I talk a lot about something most of the posters on this forum don't have a clue about. Isn't it weird how that makes me a "bad guy" for calling the bluff of people who should know far more than me about these things and a lot of them take money "teaching"? Who's got the moral high ground... the "koryu wankers" or the "ki wanker"? At least I'll back my statements. :D Do you have anything to say about the sumotori exercise? I could, Ron, but it gets complicated. Rob John and I and Terry Chan and others have talked about it. Essentially, it appears unavoidable that the sumotori exercise is derived from Chinese or Indian practices from a longer time back than is going to be comfortable for a lot of researchers (including me) to deal with... for complicated reasons I don't want to go into here. What that exercise actually trains is related to my question in a previous thread about where some of these guys were getting a certain type of power. I think I see where they got it now. I also understand the "A - Un" breathing as being the "heng -ha" breathing of Chinese Buddhist martial ancestry. So yeah... there's a complicated and important thing that is being trained in that exercise; something *again* where I'm caught with my pants down because I hadn't really thought that the Japanese arts had this thing nor did I think that they'd had it for such a long time. Yeah... that one you should chase, Ron.

FWIW

Mike

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 03:10 PM
Until we hear from someone like Rob John, maybe this link will help:
How to train sum (http://shiroikuma.com/peiji/keiko.htm) Does anyone have another source available of Shiko in which there is audio for me to hear the breathing? Thanks.

Mike

roosvelt
11-30-2005, 03:19 PM
Do you have anything to say about the sumotori exercise?



OK. Suppose the sumotori exercise teach you about KI. What are you going to do? Find books about sumotori to read? Find a sumo teacher in your city? I think it'll be very hard to do either.

I think you missed Mike's point. I don't know MIke, so you have ask him to answer you.

But I think Mike's point is that it's a lot easier to learn Ki/Chi from CMA because it's been written about for so long (over four thousand years) and the books is readily available (just search qigong in amazon), and it's easy to find a CMA master in major city. Once you learned Ki/Chi, you can apply it in Aikido directly.

Some one disagree with Mike's view. They think the Chi you learn from CMA can't be used in Aikido as Ki. I think even respectful George S. Ledyard hold this narrow minded view.

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 03:28 PM
Well, that one I am chasing, thank you, and will continue. And you just made my point about how far back you have to go sometimes for these connections. Which is why it's perfectly appropriate to contain the topic within reasonable boundries, as you yourself just did.

So..... tell me how the use in Daito Ryu, associated arts, etc., is different from what is used in Chinese martial arts, Ron. That's the claim by Chuck which you indicate that you understand. That's what I'm asking for, in the light of Chuck's assertion. Set me straight if you think my reading of his claim to a difference was "devious".

Again, a perfect example of the devious readings...I NEVER SAID THAT. What I said was that I understand his speaking of 'aiki' vs 'ki', and I clearly stated why (Tohei, etc.). That's all. This is a perfect example of how your joy in debate trivializes the value of your contributions (I've made it crystal clear that I do think you have valuable contributions). But we always get sidetracked with your agenda of:

to tell some of the role-players that the "I've got a secret" stuff won't fly and to put up or shut up.

YOU decide who the role players are, YOU decide when and where you'll bash them, and frankly, it get's tiresome. Why not just give your ideas and let them stand on their own, without the polemics? Personally, I think those ideas are strong enough, which is why I've been reading them for about 10 years now. Haven't gotten all that far, but I'm still trying.

On the translation side...please note that both translations are from aikido journal. Can you read japanese? So how do you know that one is a mistranslation, and not the other? Or is that an ASSERTION?

And now I'm leaving the debate, so post on, while I go train.

Best,
Ron

dj_swim
11-30-2005, 03:37 PM
Admin, please move all the snatchiness about the meaning of Ki into this thread:

Cyber-Slap-Fighting (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9369)

So that we can have an unspoiled thread about Carols books.

Thanks!

-Doug

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 03:44 PM
OK. Suppose the sumotori exercise teach you about KI. What are you going to do? Find books about sumotori to read? Find a sumo teacher in your city? I think it'll be very hard to do either.

I think you missed Mike's point. I don't know MIke, so you have ask him to answer you.

But I think Mike's point is that it's a lot easier to learn Ki/Chi from CMA because it's been written about for so long (over four thousand years) and the books is readily available (just search qigong in amazon), and it's easy to find a CMA master in major city. Once you learned Ki/Chi, you can apply it in Aikido directly.

Some one disagree with Mike's view. They think the Chi you learn from CMA can't be used in Aikido as Ki. I think even respectful George S. Ledyard hold this narrow minded view. My point has never been that it's easier to learn, better to learn, etc., in the Chinese martial arts, Roosvelt. My point is that there is the same Ki usage in both cultures among the more skilled martial artists. I personally don't have any favorite place to look. Some of the Japanese exercises are quite good and I use some of them... but once you understand the basic principles, you look for the ones that will train the most with the least amount of time and complexity and you use it. You don't worry about whether it is Chinese or Japanese since the same basic principles apply.

And I agree.... there are a lot of "high ranking" Aikido and Koryu types that are essentially playing "my style is best" and who think the principles in Aikido, etc., are unique. They're not. Yet some of those same people, knowing that something is missing, will look to Karate, Systema, etc., etc., instead of looking deep into their own art. Have they become that disillusioned or have they become that convinced of the extent of their own knowledge?

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 03:49 PM
YOU decide who the role players are, YOU decide when and where you'll bash them, and frankly, it get's tiresome. Ron, go back and look at Chuck's post. Notice the bit indicating the high ranking guys who know so much. Let me ask you why you haven't called him on that bit of arrogance.

I think it's YOU that gets side-tracked with the herd mentality.... and that's what's slowing Aikido, western Karate, etc., down. And that's an opinion, FWIW.

Mike

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 03:52 PM
OK. Suppose the sumotori exercise teach you about KI. What are you going to do? Find books about sumotori to read? Find a sumo teacher in your city? I think it'll be very hard to do either.

I think you missed Mike's point. I don't know MIke, so you have ask him to answer you.

Ah, no...I didn't miss his point at all. But you have. It's just as hard to find a QUALIFIED teacher in CMA as in JMA when it comes to these internal aspects. That's just how it is. So you do the best you can, you research, you read, you get out of your sandbox and look around. In a way, it's very much like koryu...just because there's not a lot of it around, doesn't mean its not in your neck of the woods. It just may be hard to find though. We already have a usefull clip just from me asking a question.

And my appologies to Carol and the other readers for getting drawn into the side topics.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 03:59 PM
Notice the bit indicating the high ranking guys who know so much. Let me ask you why you haven't called him on that bit of arrogance.

Ok, I just went back and read his posts on the first two pages. I saw NOTHING about high ranking guys who know so much. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

That would be why I haven't called him on it. Now, I only reread the first 2 pages...maybe he has a post somewhere else where I missed it. Please quote him verbatim.

And if I'm the bane of aikido, then we have nothing to worry about. ;)

Best,
Ron

SeiserL
11-30-2005, 04:00 PM
Gentlemen, IMHO, part of Aiki is to enter, blend, and redirect.

This thread has been highjacked and appears to be heading down the same old futile road, Mike's.

And what does this have to do with Carol's books?

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 04:03 PM
And my appologies to Carol and the other readers for getting drawn into the side topics. How is it a side-topic? It's ALL about ki, kokyu and how to do it. I think the thread died when a couple of people basically indicated that the books didn't tell you *specifically* how to do things and they were predictably trashed for saying the obvious. It doesn't matter that her well-intentioned book really DOESN'T tell you how to do Ki things, it's more important in some of the dominant segments of Aikido to play "AikiSpeak" games and pretend the Love and Kindness is what makes Aikido... and many people hold that view of Aikido. Why were those few who spoke out dismissed and trashed, Ron? I'm sure if it had been me that had trashed them you would have taken up their cause. ;)

Until you ask more questions about Aikido than you do about my posting style, you'll never get off first base. Go back and look at Rob John, full of information, and how he's been received by the Aiki community. Oh.... and try to do it without trashing him or his posting style; that would be my recommendation.

Mike

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 04:16 PM
Well, IMHO, ki in aikido is sort of a misnomer and overstatement. The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'.

However, due to influence of Tohei and others, the idea of ki in aikido has gotten popular and is an exploration in an of itself. However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems.

If you want to learn about ki or aiki in aikido, do aikido. If you want to do ki aikido, get into a good ki aikido school and study hard. Too bad George Simcox is gone. He was one of the very few aikidoka who 'got' ki.

If you want to dig deeper, take a look at Daito Ryu.

If you want to learn about chi, do Chi Gung or something of the sort.

If you want to learn about aiki, grab a sword and get into a good koryu dojo.

Ki, chi? Apples, oranges.

YMMV. OK, Ron.... you, Chuck, and Rob haven't explained that second sentence about how The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'. How is it different?????????? Despite shifting to "my posting style", none of you has done it. You can't.

Then he says: "However, the ideas, theories and practices of ki in aikido aren't quite the same as chi in Chinese systems." I called. No one answered. They say I "misread". How is the ki in Aikido different from the qi in Chinese martial arts????? It's not me with the reading problem, Ron.

Then, to continue building his house of cards, Chuck says that in order to learn about Ki in Aikido you have to go to an Aikido school... i.e., the implication is that if you're not of or from or a qualified person in an Aikido school you can't understand Ki, right? That is an arrogance.

FWIW

Mike

SeiserL
11-30-2005, 04:16 PM
How is it a side-topic?
Quite simply, because it not about the book or what she tried to offer. IMHO, she did a great job. Aikido will never be learned from a book or a tape, but they can help those of us who are open to other's ideas. (Was that too Aiki-speak?)

We all look forward to your book on Aikido so we can be enlightened.

SeiserL
11-30-2005, 04:19 PM
Chuck says that in order to learn about Ki in Aikido you have to go to an Aikido school... i.e., the implication is that if you're not of or from or a qualified person in an Aikido school you can't understand Ki, right?
Are you suggesting that we can learn Ki in Aikido without actually studying Aikido? That expalins a lot.

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 04:19 PM
Gentlemen, IMHO, part of Aiki is to enter, blend, and redirect.

This thread has been highjacked and appears to be heading down the same old futile road, Mike's.

And what does this have to do with Carol's books? Oh, stoppit, Lynn. You trash the guys who don't say what YOU want them to say about Carol's book and then you play 'holier than thou"? You're more into "deflect and evade" than "blend and redirect". Why don't you tell us *factually* how Carol's book helps in the development of Ki? I would love to hear something more than platitudes. Particularly after you took that oblique shot at those guys who gave honest opinions. :p

Regards,

Mike "Facts not Feelings" Sigman

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 04:23 PM
Are you suggesting that we can learn Ki in Aikido without actually studying Aikido? That expalins a lot. Er.... I don't even know where to start, Lynn. Do you think the Ki in Aikido is somehow different from other Ki? Can you explain? For instance, do you think the Ki/kokyu that Ushiro Sensei showed all the Aikidoists at the Aiki Expo was not legitimate in terms of Aikido's Ki/kokyu? I'm really interested to hear your response. Why, for gosh sakes, did some well-known Aikido instructors (Japanese) then invite Ushiro to their dojo's?

Mike

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 04:24 PM
If your style wasn't what it was, it wouldn't be an issue. **I** didn't bash anyone Mike. And while I may or may not agree with what someone said to the poster, I thought Carol had a very good solution. If he didn't find it usefull, then she would buy it back. That seems like a good solution to me. From what has been described, I *probably* wouldn't find it all that useful myself. But I haven't read it, so my opinion on it is worthless (as far as I'm concerned).

As for my questions about aikido, read the record. I have been on your case maybe 3 times. I have been asking questions about aikido (and actually training in it) for about 10 years. The balance is working fine for me, thanks.

As for Rob John, how he represents himself probably accounts for some of what he's found. The jerks in aikido (they are there) probably account for the rest. That's just the way it goes. In karate, judo, boxing what ever. It's just in aikido, there's no competition to smack them around a little, and make them see the light. And that's not bashing anyone. It's just reality. Whining about being bashed while you hold a bloody club in your hand just doesn't get it. Reading and acknowledging the part about the usefull contributions would go a long way here.

Now, we really ought to take this stuff somewhere else.

Best to you always, and thanks for the usefull tips, hints, etc.,
Ron

roosvelt
11-30-2005, 04:25 PM
Quite simply, because it not about the book or what she tried to offer. IMHO, she did a great job.



Could you specify on the "great job" please?

I personally think she's misleading beginers in her book because of her "so little understanding" (quote from Craig).

Upyu
11-30-2005, 04:29 PM
**Tiptoes in, lol
Ok a couple people asked me to post something about the Shiko exercise. So I'm reposting this from another post I made on a different list. If you ask me, Shiko, and Sumo training in general is much much deeper than most realize. Probably deeper than a lot of the Sumo wrestlers themselves realize, otherwise we'd have a bunch of Fat Sagawa's running around doing some pretty incredible feats. That being said, if you have a good head on your shoulders, I do think Sumo's Shiko will help build a foundation that's severely lacking in a lot of MAs these days.

Here's the post:

Woot, another attempt to describe a physical/nervous system exercise via words ^^;
No complaints tho,


Ok, so in its most basic form its what you see the sumo guys do here ->
http://www.sumo.it/images/ballo2_asashoryu.jpg

Most people think a measure of "beautiful" shiko is how high the leg is raised is etc,
but we'll ignore that for now since that kind of assessment is garbage really, imo.

The real meat of shiko lies in the separation of the three axis (one that runs through each leg, and the middle axis) As you raise the leg, you attempt to keep the feeling of the "arch" supporting the entire body, and keep the body connected throughout the entire movement.

When it comes down you land in this position (but with the spine more or less straight)
http://eichan20.hp.infoseek.co.jp/o006.jpg

The other factors being trained, are the ability to "weight" shift, and upon landing, keeping the "dangjing" intact, and then "sinking". (FYI We do use the breath for this mike :) ) Exhaling all the breath, you feel the yin side of the body sink down. When you come up to repeat the movement, you rise from the back, come to one leg, with the other leg coming up off the ground. Bring down. repeat 200+ times.
Several things are trained during this,
"standing" from the spine. (You don't push off the ground when rising)
seaparation of the yin/yang sides of the body (we'll say front back sides of the body to simplify matters)
Understanding the seperation of Ten-Jin-Chi (Heaven, man, earth or Top, middle, bottom)
When raising the leg, the entire body has to move as one unit. Which means in essence, no "telegraphing", or move "one" part of the body then another in a sequential fashion. Everything has to move as once.
All of this helps in understanding how to strike/throw, even stand. I can understand why it was so valued in the old martial traditions in Japan. What's a shame is that I think I see a lof the deeper aspects of shiko training being thrown out of sumo matches... Then again, that's more a result of the demands of the sport if anything.


There's more but I think that's enough for now. I'll elaborate more if anyone wants...

PS
The How to Train in Shiko was pretty good ;)
But, just looking at the guys posture, I can tell there's several things slightly off. Mainly in the fact that the Dangjing/arch within the legs doesn't seems to be there exactly. But he doesn't claim to be an expert, so I'm not going to trash the page. The main thing lacking is the detailed movement that goes on within the body. But they expect you to "get it" on your own in the JMAs.. and CMAs too.
Btw, Anyone remember Chiyonofuji from back in the day? That Sumo wrestler was tops, I remember watching him as a kid and I'm almost certain he had a pretty high level of body skill . (For Sumotori) ;)

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2005, 04:34 PM
Thank you Rob! That, combined with the vid posted earlier, is a big help.

Best,
Ron (I can't believe someone did this 1000 times a day...I just tried it with my bad knees...this is going to take some practice!!)

Upyu
11-30-2005, 04:39 PM
And as a preempt, since I see this coming up anyways, even though this has little to do with Carol's book on Ki, I'm going to repost something about the Kongourikisi Zou (Buddha Attendant Warrior Statues) that are on display in Nara. I don't think it's coincidence that those statues were modled the way they were.

Since several people asked me to elaborate on the "A" "Un" Buddha Attendant Statues I thought I'd create a new thread.

Hopefully some of this will make sense. I'm still in the process of reordering these thoughts running around in my head, so feel free to zap me if the following makes no sense.

Here's my interpretation as far as I understand it:

"A"

http://www.koumatsuba.zansu.com/kongourikishi_as2.JPG


and "Un"

http://www.sendai-biyori.com/news/image/20050722083747.jpg

Each statue represents a different physical/mental extreme as it exists in the body. The "A" being Hard while the "Un" representing the "Soft." That in itself is nothing revelational I'm sure (for most on this list). The thing is, since both are extremes, I think the western interpretation of the "Soft" is a bit, well, off. Since "Un" is an extreme, it too could be looked as a different sort of "hardness". So for the most part I'm going to refrain from referring to them as "Hard"/"Soft".
Both of these extremes complement each other, and form a kind of pressurized amalgam/substance within the body. (太極(Grand Ultimate)h within 太極拳(Grand Ultimate Fist/Tai Chi Fist), coincidence, I don't think so ??)

Taking a closer look at the "A" statue, you'll find his mouth is open representing the desire to release/expand what has been contained.

But even as this happens(if you imagine that while both statues are different entities, you can imagine them contained at the same time in the body), if you take a closer look at the "Un" statue, you'll find that the mouth is closed, in a fashion where he's holding back with all his might the "A" part that resides in the body, which seeks to be released.

This dynamic of seeking to release/yet hold back/contain the pressures is contained behind the Buddha's face.

http://www.zenbuddhismus.info/shozan/Buddha-Face.jpg

What this implies martially is that when you engage an opponent, you constantly have this release/containment dynamic going on, and you use only a fraction of its full potential to handle your opponent. Otherwise you risk disturbing the Buddha's trippy face (ok little bit of exaggeration, but I'm trying to describe a feeling :-p ). In otherwords, you risk losing the pressurized dynamic, since both extreme's actually create "one" thing.

Another way to look at it is, behind the Buddha's face, lies these two Buddha Warrior Attendants, the pressurized dynamic of "A" and "Un". And no matter what happens, no matter how much you're hit/smacked, struck etc, you don't release what lies behind it. But if pressed to the edge, then you release everthing in a single instant, with no thought, and what comes out is the "kou"/功/foundation that you've built up until that point.

All this implies the six-directions, ten-chi-jin(Heaven Man Earth) principals etc within this dynamic. You'll notice that the "A" statue has his fist raised to the heavens while still "pressing" down to earth with the other hand, which smacks of a representation of high level "technique". (Which is derived from the Ten-Chi-Jin formed inside the body)

Btw, the associated sounds of "A" and "Un" also play right into the pressurized dynamic I was talking about. I think all of this ties up too nicely to be coincidence... thoughts??

PS
These statues were supposedly modelled off of a real warrior about 800 years back. The similarity they share in terms of the foundation with good CMA is no coincidence I think. So I don't think you have to go that far back to see the parrallels.
Also, I saw that statue in person, and the feet are F#$#$ing beast. If you think the sculptor was exaggerating, take a look at Sagawa's feet. And Mike made the guess that he was a farmer, but Sagawa never worked a day in his life (lucky bastard). The shape of the body after years of training shows, and I don't think it coincidence that Sagawa's frame resembles to some degree the Kongourikisi.

Upyu
11-30-2005, 04:41 PM
Thank you Rob! That, combined with the vid posted earlier, is a big help.

Best,
Ron (I can't believe someone did this 1000 times a day...I just tried it with my bad knees...this is going to take some practice!!)

Dude, Kimura was doing that for at LEAST 1000 times. Some days he'd be fanatical and do at least 10000, or so he claims. Even if its exaggeration and he did half. That's some serious internal work he'd be forced to do.

Right now 200+ is my limit, due to time constraints, lol. Not because the actual Shiko becomes physically straining. If anything my nervous system gets taxed doing it, trying to keep all components together and moving correctly. :D

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 04:42 PM
**Tiptoes in, lol
Ok a couple people asked me to post something about the Shiko exercise. So I'm reposting this from another post I made on a different list. If you ask me, Shiko, and Sumo training in general is much much deeper than most realize. Probably deeper than a lot of the Sumo wrestlers themselves realize, otherwise we'd have a bunch of Fat Sagawa's running around doing some pretty incredible feats. That being said, if you have a good head on your shoulders, I do think Sumo's Shiko will help build a foundation that's severely lacking in a lot of MAs these days. Hi Rob:

Do you have access to any other site where I can hear the breathing? I think I suddenly understand even more, if what that guy is doing represents the a copy of the actual breathing. It explains a lot. Man Oh Man.... my timelines were wrong coming into this forum early this year, I thought I corrected them, but I'm probably going to have to do a massive correction based on some of this recent stuff.

Mike

Adman
11-30-2005, 04:46 PM
When raising the leg, the entire body has to move as one unit. Which means in essence, no "telegraphing", or move "one" part of the body then another in a sequential fashion. Everything has to move as once.

Thanks Robert! The quote above fits with how I've been taught (aikido not shiko, that is), so I think I can at least understand that part. Although the topic of the shiko exercise has a thin attachment to the topic of this thread (it seems like a good "ki" exercise), perhaps Jun could splice this off into another thread for further exploration.

thanks,
Adam

Upyu
11-30-2005, 04:49 PM
Hi Rob:

Do you have access to any other site where I can hear the breathing? I think I suddenly understand even more, if what that guy is doing represents the a copy of the actual breathing. It explains a lot. Man Oh Man.... my timelines were wrong coming into this forum early this year, I thought I corrected them, but I'm probably going to have to do a massive correction based on some of this recent stuff.

Mike

Unfortunately no, I could try and sneak a recording of Ark doing the breathing during Shiko, or Ten Chi Jin.
Best I can describe is for now he's focusing on the effects of exhaling. And "dropping" the breath down, and letting the Yin side "sink" to "Chi" or "Earth" as it were.
When he uses the words Ten and Chi, the Chi sound used for exhalation is like Chhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhi ---> with a feeling of heading down. Or sometimes he will use "Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaa" (just not as pronounced as the chinese version) A lot has to do with the way the japanese pronounce the words. The effect is the same, but since they pronounce it differently they'll stress a different part to get the same effect on the body, I think.

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 04:52 PM
Thanks Robert! The quote above fits with how I've been taught (aikido not shiko, that is), so I think I can at least understand that part. Although the topic of the shiko exercise has a thin attachment to the topic of this thread (it seems like a good "ki" exercise), perhaps Jun could splice this off into another thread for further exploration. Hi Adam:

If it seems like a "thin attachment" to what Carol has written in her books, it shouldn't be. For instance, I'd be delighted to hear Carol explain how the leg is raised in Shiko. Knowing the basic principles of Ki, this should be obvious to her, to Lynn, to Chuck, to all the readers (and contributors) who think they understand this part, etc.

Regards,

Mike

Upyu
11-30-2005, 04:53 PM
Thanks Robert! The quote above fits with how I've been taught (aikido not shiko, that is), so I think I can at least understand that part. Although the topic of the shiko exercise has a thin attachment to the topic of this thread (it seems like a good "ki" exercise), perhaps Jun could splice this off into another thread for further exploration.

thanks,
Adam

The one part that's probably not done (and this isn't a critique, just an observation) is that while that principal is stressed, there's no exercise to move the body within the "extreme" limits of its structure, but still keep all the connections together. Its only after you practice a physical exercise at the "extremes" and still force it to adhere to principal that you can begin to build a foundation, (i think). That's another thing that the two statues represent I think, and part of what Shiko helps to build.

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 04:54 PM
Rob, I'd be interested if there is even a Japanese website with a trained sumotori of reasonably good lineage doing Shiko. I need to hear/watch the breathing to satisfy a curiosity that is pretty strong. ;)

Mike

Upyu
11-30-2005, 05:01 PM
Rob, I'd be interested if there is even a Japanese website with a trained sumotori of reasonably good lineage doing Shiko. I need to hear/watch the breathing to satisfy a curiosity that is pretty strong. ;)

Mike

Dude they so wouldn't do that. Though if you come to Japan, there's a couple of stables (good ones) that are open to the public.
Unfortunately, I don't think the breath is emphasized these days. They use it mainly as an exercise to increase the flexibility/strength in the Kua/Pelvic Crease area and the lower back/legs.

Ark got a lot of this stuff from self experimentation I think.
Kimura won't talk nor instruct people on the correct way to do Shiko(one of my friends already tried asking him)
If I'm still in this game 10 years from now my goal is going to be to flip him on his head for being the cagey bastard he is now :D

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 05:06 PM
Rob, all I want to know is *when* the breath is exhaled in the procedure for a *good* sumatori. If what the white guy did is correct, then I have a few comments to make to you.


Mike

eyrie
11-30-2005, 05:19 PM
I, for one, enjoy the way Mike provokes thought in these discussions. I'm sure many here appreciate the little gems that surface from time to time, as a result of these provoking and heated debates.

Mike Sigman
11-30-2005, 05:30 PM
Chas Clements, of RMA fame, has a saying like: "A bunch of martial artists get together, a fight breaks out. Quelle Surprise".

The surprise on AikiWeb is that a fight doesn't break out, but the passive-aggressive hamstringing continues.

;)

Mike

Upyu
11-30-2005, 06:07 PM
Rob, all I want to know is *when* the breath is exhaled in the procedure for a *good* sumatori. If what the white guy did is correct, then I have a few comments to make to you.


Mike

I don't know about a "good" sumotori, but I believe its after both feet are on the ground, and as you "sink" down.^^;

kdj
11-30-2005, 11:30 PM
Btw, Anyone remember Chiyonofuji from back in the day? That Sumo wrestler was tops, I remember watching him as a kid and I'm almost certain he had a pretty high level of body skill . (For Sumotori) ;)

He was special. I pretty much stopped watching Sumo when he retired :sorry:

Incidentally, he trained with Tohei Koichi Sensei for a while so, in addition to the body skill developed from Sumo, he had input from another source. Given his ability, I sure he had high level skills in what ever space you chose to look.

PeterR
11-30-2005, 11:37 PM
He was still doing the business when I first moved to Japan. My first and lasting impression was his size relative to the guys he was bringing down. Often just a little slip to the side.

David Yap
12-01-2005, 01:37 AM
I, for one, enjoy the way Mike provokes thought in these discussions. I'm sure many here appreciate the little gems that surface from time to time, as a result of these provoking and heated debates.

Me 2. I like the ".. the O we breathe.." part.

My next questions are, "Is there any difference between Japanese chemistry and Chinese chemisty?", "Who are better, Chinese chemists versus Japanese chemists?" and finally, "Is studying/practising aikido the same as studying/practising rocket science?" :D

Best training

David Y

eyrie
12-01-2005, 02:19 AM
Indeed...

rob_liberti
12-01-2005, 08:43 AM
I explained my interpretation of his post and my perseption of your misunsderstanding several times.
I can explain how clock-radio is different than just a clock or just a radio - even the entire *spectrum* of clocks (grandfather clocks, wrist watches, sundiles, hour glasses, etc) if that would help, how they are probably manuafactured using different parts, and approached differently, etc. but I expect it wouldn't help you that much.

It's is very strange to take such a position against analogy and metaphor. Besides the obvious fact that "calling" someone as in cards is ALSO a metaphor - more importantly, the concept of comparason is generally used to help promote understanding, so much so that it happens IN EVERY LANGUAGE.

In my opinion, the analogies mentioned from this book are just fine given a particular context. I believe that the context and any assumptions should be listed (as in Chuck's post) - maybe it would help if subsequent statements continued to gently remind the reader the context like.

1: "The ki in aikido is part of a compound, aiki, that uses the term ki, but not the same way the Chinese systems use 'chi'."

I haven't seen anyone approaching chi in chinese systems like I see ki being approached in aiki-focused systems. [see 1].

Then someone can come back and explain how there is a root word in Chinese that means something similar to what "ai" means in Japanese AND how when that root word is combined with "chi" is also happens to mean "level of depth" AND how chi in that system is approached through the study of similar basic waza - and WOW that would be a heck of lesson for people like Chuck. Me I'd be suprised myself as well. But I didn't make his statements, I just understood them and tried to help explain them - ya know, the kind of thing that is expected on a public forum.

Rob

Mike Sigman
12-01-2005, 08:49 AM
Give it up, Rob. You're tap-dancing. Your cover is totally blown. You should have left Chuck with his own mess.

Mike

Mark Uttech
12-01-2005, 08:54 AM
Stay with something true, like sharp pointed Japanese chopsticks or rounded point Chinese chopsticks. Or even, G-d forbid, flat ended Korean chopsticks. You must eat.

In gassho

rob_liberti
12-01-2005, 09:16 AM
My "cover"? Is that a metaphor too?! I will give up trying to add clarity to your misunderstanding. Thanks for backing off on the whole "butting in" nonsense with respect to public forums.

Ironically, the word for chopstick in Japanese also means "bridge" - which is also metaphor - and that's a fact.

Rob

Josh Reyer
12-01-2005, 09:30 AM
Ironically, the word for chopstick in Japanese also means "bridge" - which is also metaphor - and that's a fact.

Rob

Um, I have no horse in this race, but that statement is true on neither an orthographical nor morphological level. It may be true on an etymological level, but that's not at all clear as far as linguists are concerned.

Analogies are oft the bane of discourse...

Ron Tisdale
12-01-2005, 09:48 AM
I see Tom Yowata is reading the thread...I'd personally really enjoy hearing any insights he might have.

Best,
Ron

roosvelt
12-01-2005, 10:47 AM
Stay with something true, like sharp pointed Japanese chopsticks or rounded point Chinese chopsticks. Or even, G-d forbid, flat ended Korean chopsticks. You must eat.

In gassho

With the same authority, I declare declare that American forks are sharp pointed, British forks are rounded pointed, and Australian forks are flat ended. Definitely it's impossible to fork over American food to your mouth with a British fork, and vise verse.

David Yap
12-01-2005, 12:02 PM
With the same authority, I declare declare that American forks are sharp pointed, British forks are rounded pointed, and Australian forks are flat ended. Definitely it's impossible to fork over American food to your mouth with a British fork, and vise verse.

LOL. I like you Roosvelt. You can sure crack a good one while keeping a straight face.

If I am to rate some of the posts on this thread, I will rate them as excellent for provoking and refreshing despite out of context with my original thread. They did give me new thoughts on the meaning of "aiki" and "ki"/"chi" as applied to aikido and try to picture the rest of the iceberg that is under the water. IMHO, I think we should look beyond harmony and blending for the meaning of "aiki". Within the confine of the yin yang (in yo) paradigm, one can compound "Ki" or extract "Ki" if one knows the means as would a trained chemist should know for each of the elements.

David Y

Thank you all.

David Y

rob_liberti
12-01-2005, 01:24 PM
Josh, Really?! I thought hashi meant chopsticks, it also meant bridge, and pronounced just a little differently it meant "edge" - so if someone yelled "HASHI" at me in Japan, I would have to try to guess whether to go eat, run to the bridge, or draw my samurai sword. But hey, I'm not real attached to being right. If I misunderstood the meaning(s) of hashi, I apologize!

Roosevelt, I liked your forks comment too.

David, I think the questions are always at what level of ability and understanding is it best to try to extract ki from the compound aiki, what was the best method for both getting ready to do that, and what was the best method for actually doing it? I'm sure that would vary according to the student's natural abilities, but I would think that some generalations could be made. I would love to see some ki books on that topic. Especially if they were supported by having seminars with people trained in those methods.

Rob

Mark Uttech
12-03-2005, 08:00 AM
Wunderbar! Bridge also translates as 'edge'? I have been accused of living on the edge for many years! It is good to know that the edge is a bridge! There is a legend that at the end of the world, there will be the final judgement in the valley of Jehosophat. There will be two bridges: one of iron and one of paper. People will be directed to one or the other. Those directed to the paper bridge may tremble in fear, but, as the legend goes, the iron bridge is the one that collaspes. The paper bridge holds.

In gassho.

Josh Reyer
12-03-2005, 11:27 AM
Josh, Really?! I thought hashi meant chopsticks, it also meant bridge, and pronounced just a little differently it meant "edge" - so if someone yelled "HASHI" at me in Japan, I would have to try to guess whether to go eat, run to the bridge, or draw my samurai sword. But hey, I'm not real attached to being right. If I misunderstood the meaning(s) of hashi, I apologize!


Hashi 箸, "chopsticks", is written with a completely different character than hashi 橋, "bridge", or hashi 端, "edge". This is the orthographical difference.

At first glance, in romanization, these all look like synonyms. But they are all pronounced with different pitch intonation. "Chopsticks" starts high and drops:

^ha shi

"Bridge" is the opposite.

ha ^shi

"Edge" is level: ha shi.

That is the morphological difference. In standard spoken Japanese, "chopsticks" would never be confused with "bridge" or "edge", just like "desert" and "dessert" would never be confused in standard spoken English. Nor would we ever say that "desert" also means "dessert".

Incidently, in the Kansai dialect of Eastern Japan, the intonation is reversed, but the distinction remains!

David Yap
12-03-2005, 07:59 PM
snip...David, I think the questions are always at what level of ability and understanding is it best to try to extract ki from the compound aiki, what was the best method for both getting ready to do that, and what was the best method for actually doing it...snip?

Rob,

IMHO, the "Ki" in Aikido is not confined to the compound "aiki" alone. The compound "aiki" is just a generic in the oriental language (Chinese, Japanese or Korean). Similar to the compound/term "shu-ha-ri", it is hardly used spoken or written. Similar to the element "O", O is O no matter from what you extract - from O2, H2O, CO2, SO2, etc. O is an universal element. "Ki" or "Chi" or "Qi" however you call it is the same.

To understand the compound aiki, we should also try to explore "ai" ;)

Best training

David Y

PS Perhaps Joshua Reyer can help us on the language side.

Josh Reyer
12-04-2005, 12:41 AM
PS Perhaps Joshua Reyer can help us on the language side.

If someone were to say that aiki is different from qi, I think I would go along with that. If someone were to say qi and ki were two different things, I would disagree.

Single concepts retain their meaning in both Chinese and Japanese. Compounds, well, complicate things. Particularly modern ones. Aiki has a meaning related to, but distinct from, qi.

That said, I think Mr. Gordon started out with the kernel of a good idea (that aiki is not the same as qi) and then took it waaaaay too far of a conclusion ("Ki, chi? Apples, oranges.")

(To add to the ever increasing number of analogies, I'd put it "Ki, chi? Apples, apples. Aiki, chi? Apple pie, apples.")

Ai 合 represents an action, au 合う. Aiki refers to a particular action of ki, that of matching/blending/joining. Developing one's aiki is different from developing one's ki, but again, they are related, as one is a thing, and the other an action of that thing. Developing one could certainly help in developing the other.

And it goes without saying that in other martial arts, like the Chinese arts that also focus on qi, the same or similar concepts can be developed, even if called by different names. Apple pie vs. apple cobbler, as it were. Not to mention that apple pies can all taste different depending on their other ingredients.

(Damn. For someone who dislikes analogies as a discourse strategy, I really ran with that one.)

Upyu
12-04-2005, 03:41 PM
For those sick of analogies I thought I'd give my two cents.

First off I'm going to presuppose that to some degree the foundation between both arts is similar at the high levels. Understanding tru-balance, standing w/ the spine, relaxation of the pelvic crease to let power through, never putting power into the shoulders when generating power etc etc etc.

Many CMA schools tend to use this power to generate a "burst" of power (it can be fairly smooth too, for controlling purposes) in a single instant. This can be a strike, throw, what have you.

Aiki, is simply using the same foundation in a different manner. How to "put" your power in unhindered, unstopping "through" the other person. There's probably not as much emphasis on the dantien drop since generally you don't seek to "emit" power. But you could, since the framework is there. Only thing is, if you can "thread" your "groundpath" through to the other person, you effectively take away his base, which doesn't really require any explosive release of energy to throw him.

Sagawa's feel was described as a "laser that passed through you unhindered" (or something of the like, I don't remember the exact quote), so I don't think I'm all that far off the mark.

Really the difference is in how you choose to develop it.
CMA styles emphasize the drop of the tanden, the Aiki everyone's been bickering about doesn't. Instead they simply focus on a higher level of manipulating the "ground" path. (But that still requires a manipulation of the tanden to some degree, actually both of them :-D)



Comments? (Btw, I don't necessarily think I'm right, so anyone that has anything specific they want to help correct me on, feel free)

Chuck.Gordon
12-05-2005, 03:43 AM
Crap. I went and started Ki Wars XXVIII ...

I don't think there's any argument that ki and chi/q mean similar things. My point is that Japanese and Chinese systems take differing approaches and unless you have a solid grounding in your core art, with a good understanding of ITS approach, then overlaying the methodology, theory and practice from completely different systemology might be counterproductive.

Mike Sigman
12-05-2005, 07:33 AM
My point is that Japanese and Chinese systems take differing approaches and unless you have a solid grounding in your core art, with a good understanding of ITS approach, then overlaying the methodology, theory and practice from completely different systemology might be counterproductive.So how about some support for the *assertion* that "Japanese and Chinese sytems take differing approaches"??? There are differing approaches, for instance, to the ki and kokyu developments skills within Aikido and Karate, and of course there are different approaches of tactics and strategies between Karate and Aikido. But if you throw out the obvious remark that tactics and strategies *generally* differe between styles, there is no really essential difference between the core principles of Ki development in Aikido, in Karate, or in the Chinese martial arts. To think there is some relevant difference that exceeds the supercedes the simple differences *in-country* between styles is naive and fatuous.

FWIW

Mike

roosvelt
12-05-2005, 07:55 AM
My point is that Japanese and Chinese systems take differing approaches.


I'd like to hear the difference from an expert of both Japanese and Chinese arts like you.

Chuck.Gordon
12-05-2005, 08:39 AM
Roosevelt,

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not here.

However, if you'r einterested, I've studied Japanese budo for more than 30 years, and over the course of those 30 years, have spent a year or two here and there in other systems, among them Pa Kua Chuan (of which the more modern spelling is Ba Gua, IIRC).

No expert, just a long-time student.

Also, to be specific and perfectly open, I do not believe in ki/chi as anything supernatural or as anything that occurs outside of the known and researchable physical universe.

As for the differeing approaches, that's something, IMHO, best discovered on the mat. To examine the ki in the Ki Aikido referent, one should study Ki Aikido under a good teacher. If you want to study Tai Chi, do so in the kwoon under the tutelage of a good Tai Chi instructor.

That's _my_ theory.

Mike Sigman
12-05-2005, 08:45 AM
And that answers the question of how ki and qi are different (or even used different), as you asserted, how?

Mike

Mike Sigman
12-05-2005, 08:49 AM
One thing I notice in Taiji, Xingyi, Aikido, Bagua, etc., etc., as practiced in the West, is that there is this "Boy Scouts Around the Campfire" mentality where someone stands up and says "here's my theory" and everyone nods sagely. Maybe it would help if there were more of a "so tell us how that works" mentality rather than an "it's my turn to tell a ghost story" mentality. I know plenty of people who have "studied 20-30 years" who simply don't know much other than rituals, some foreign words, and have a "telling ghost stories around the campfire" attitude. The best way to avoid all this is simply hold everyone to facts, as opposed to "feelings", IMO.

FWIW

Mike

roosvelt
12-05-2005, 09:09 AM
Roosevelt,

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not here.



It depends on your answer.




However, if you'r einterested, I've studied Japanese budo for more than 30 years, and over the course of those 30 years, have spent a year or two here and there in other systems, among them Pa Kua Chuan (of which the more modern spelling is Ba Gua, IIRC).



You took my question in the wrong way. I had not intention to question your superficail qualification (i.e. years of study, ranking) since I have little to show. I only want to know (or learn) your undersatnding of both arts.



Also, to be specific and perfectly open, I do not believe in ki/chi as anything supernatural or as anything that occurs outside of the known and researchable physical universe.



In total agreement. But there is no scientific ways to measure the ki/qi either. The lack of tangible feekback (except to the prationer itself) make it hard to teach and learn.



As for the differeing approaches, that's something, IMHO, best discovered on the mat.



Here is when my sarcastism comes in. For someone who believes that ki is natrual, physical and teachable, yet thinks that a method or two can't be put into words, I have less respect.

rob_liberti
12-05-2005, 09:10 AM
I'm relieved to see that this thread finally got to discussing what was actually presented. Joshua and Robert John, thank you for your wonderful posts.

I'd love to read about "the core principles of Ki development in Aikido, in Karate, or in the Chinese martial arts." Are there any good books discussing this?

Rob

Chuck.Gordon
12-05-2005, 09:42 AM
Whatever, Roosevelt. Do what you wish. Think what you wish. If you don't like what I say, don't read it. Have a nice life ...

roosvelt
12-05-2005, 09:48 AM
I'd love to read about "the core principles of Ki development in Aikido, in Karate, or in the Chinese martial arts." Are there any good books discussing this?



Thanks to Mark Walsh in another thread, REACH OUT: BODY AWARENESS TRAINING FOR PEACEMAKING by Paul Linden is a wonderful essay, http://aiki-extensions.org/member_pubs.html.

It also uses some image to present excercise. You can clearly tell its written by someone who knows. Unlike someone who fakes.

Side point. I think too many love talks in some Aikido jodo, people forget the very first principle is "be true". Without "true", there isn't any Aikido.

Another point is "power", Paul said it well "Power creates stability, wich is a PREREQUISITE for the vulnerable softening of love", "love without power is limp and ineffective".

"Chi chung: way of power" recommended by Mike Sigman is a good book. Lack of illustation makes it hard to understand, especially in the section about power of metal, wood, water, fire and earth. It's interesting that the power of metal is similar to the sword cutting without the sword. I haven't figure out the other movement due to lack of pictures. Maybe the author tries to sell us his video? :(

roosvelt
12-05-2005, 09:57 AM
If you don't like what I say, don't read it.



I don't think you have said anything yet. How can I not like what you haven't said?

The whole problem is that you haven't said anything.

Roosvelt: How's the trip to Cancun?

Chuck: Go to find out yourself?

Roosvelt: I've been to barbados. I've heard that Cancun has similar nice weather and blue ocean.

Chuck: Cancun, Barbados. Apples, oranges.

Roosvelt: Can you tell me about it?

Chuck: If you don't like what I say, don't ask.

Roosvelt: ?!

Mike Sigman
12-05-2005, 10:07 AM
"Chi chung: way of power" recommended by Mike Sigman is a good book. Lack of illustation makes it hard to understand, especially in the section about power of metal, wood, water, fire and earth. It's interesting that the power of metal is similar to the sword cutting without the sword. I haven't figure out the other movement due to lack of pictures. Maybe the author tries to sell us his video? :( Anyone can write a book. I have always been intrigued by the credence many people put in something "because it is in a book". I have a very extensive library of books (periodically I clean it out and give a number of fairly useless volumes on "advanced studies" to the local library)... yet when people ask me for recommendations I can only ever think of a few books to suggest, and even then I have reservations.

Most of the books about Aikido, Karate, Chinese martial arts, etc., are very far from complete and contain only hints of things that I would consider "must know" in order to make any progress. The book on "Chi Gung: Way of Power" is a good book with a fair amount of useful information, but once again if you don't already know a fair amount about what the author is referring to, it doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems to usually go back to that one phrase, in good martial arts books...... "unless you already know it, the book doesn't tell you much".

Let's face it, it's simply hard to find good information. And the real killer that I've found over the years that almost equals the *lack* of good information is the huge amount of poor information that all the would-be "experts" and "teachers" throw in... the really hard part is to distinguish between good information and junk information. And most teachers are teaching bogus information, but most students are too loyal to ever understand that fact.... so most students will not try to discriminate in information if it in any ways means questioning what their "teacher" has told them. So they are doomed. The only real hope in most martial arts is for the somewhat new, still curious, students who can focus on reality.

FWIW

Mike

roosvelt
12-05-2005, 12:39 PM
Let's face it, it's simply hard to find good information. And the real killer that I've found over the years that almost equals the *lack* of good information is the huge amount of poor information that all the would-be "experts" and "teachers" throw in... the really hard part is to distinguish between good information and junk information. And most teachers are teaching bogus information, but most students are too loyal to ever understand that fact.... so most students will not try to discriminate in information if it in any ways means questioning what their "teacher" has told them. So they are doomed. The only real hope in most martial arts is for the somewhat new, still curious, students who can focus on reality.

FWIW

Mike

http://www.yiquan.com.pl

I like this free e-book. It only explains about one postrue mainly, and explains in detail that you can practice. What do you think of this book, Mike?

kironin
12-05-2005, 12:50 PM
It seems to usually go back to that one phrase, in good martial arts books...... "unless you already know it, the book doesn't tell you much".

That is really the sentiment about my comment earlier about books. The combination of an exceptional teacher with exceptional understanding that is an exceptional writer who also takes the time to write a book seems very rare to me.

Would I find Carol's first book as useful if it wasn't simply a useful reminder of classes I had with the teacher who was her main source and of various teachings I had many contexts in the style she trained in ? Not sure. but I do know others without my experiences have liked the book and found it useful.

Would it have been better if the teacher whose exceptional knowledge and understanding she drew upon had written a clear book on training exercises. I think so. But he didn't for various reasons and she did and if she hadn't we who remember him wouldn't have anything.

as for the problem of loyal students not questioning what is being taught, all one can do is be a teacher who encourages them to question what is being taught and not tell them but allow them to do and experiment.

for the record only, if anyone really cares, I think chi and ki are basically the same phenomena and I found the discussion of the sumo exercise quite interesting.

Mike Sigman
12-05-2005, 06:32 PM
It seems to usually go back to that one phrase, in good martial arts books...... "unless you already know it, the book doesn't tell you much".That is really the sentiment about my comment earlier about books. The combination of an exceptional teacher with exceptional understanding that is an exceptional writer who also takes the time to write a book seems very rare to me.

Would I find Carol's first book as useful if it wasn't simply a useful reminder of classes I had with the teacher who was her main source and of various teachings I had many contexts in the style she trained in ? Not sure. but I do know others without my experiences have liked the book and found it useful. In the case of my quote, the number of indicators in some books is enough to tell me that someone knows pretty much what is really going on. Some books have enough to tell me that the author really doesn't know what is going on. The value of these two books is quite different, regardless of how much they "remind" me of something. The topic at hand is how much value Carol's writings have for the well-intentioned and sincere beginner. Would you say that her books provide functional and useful information for that sort of person or would you "AikiSpeak" and say the books are pleasant in some other sense?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

SeiserL
12-06-2005, 09:58 AM
The topic at hand is how much value Carol's writings have for the well-intentioned and sincere beginner. Would you say that her books provide functional and useful information for that sort of person or would you "AikiSpeak" and say the books are pleasant in some other sense?
IMHO, I would say they have "value" for the "well-intentioned and sincere beginner".

In "Ki in Aikido" chapters cover, explain, and and offer practical exercises for Aikido, extend Ki and Ki breathing, keeping one-point, relax completely, keep weight underside, testing, mind-body coordination, basics, sitting, rolling, standing, tenkan, meditation, and books, movies, and videos.

Likewise, in "Aikido: Exercises for Teaching and Training" chapters cover, explain, and offer practical exercises as an introduction to Aikido, getting started, a brief Ki class, Aikido exercises, rolling and falling and flying, grabs and strikes, lock and throws, weapons and tools and toys, off the mat in real life, and resources.

Coming from an Aikikai style I found the books informative about the Ki-Society organization's teaching principles. The practical exercises gave me more to focus on in my own training. I personally like the combination of Aikikai technical proficiency with Ki-Society principles. (I also like the application of Aiki-jujutsu concepts and Tomiki practicality.) I like the fact that this was not just her personal opinions and observations, but that she included comments from many Aikidoka for the Aikido-List.

IMHO, all books and videos are aimed primarily as reminders and resources for the beginners. They never replace honest and genuine consistent practice and training under a competent teacher over a period of time. It is only from that perspective that you can assess the value of the starting point or material.

These two works have value for what they are and what they were intended to be. I still hold to my recommendation.

Mike Sigman
12-06-2005, 10:11 AM
http://www.yiquan.com.pl

I like this free e-book. It only explains about one postrue mainly, and explains in detail that you can practice. What do you think of this book, Mike? I don't see where it has much functionally useful information in it, Roosvelt. The lack of information makes me curious, in fact. There is far better information to be found on Bo Jiacong's DVD's, if you're interested. But even then, you need some help getting past a few hurdles.

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
12-06-2005, 10:16 AM
IMHO, I would say they have "value" for the "well-intentioned and sincere beginner".

In "Ki in Aikido" chapters cover, explain, and and offer practical exercises for Aikido, extend Ki and Ki breathing, keeping one-point, relax completely, keep weight underside, testing, mind-body coordination, basics, sitting, rolling, standing, tenkan, meditation, and books, movies, and videos. OK, Lynn. I've done a few workshops lately where I've taught people within one hour to be able to manifest "ki" so that they could do most of the so-called "ki-tests" in a substantive way. Someone could test them and they can offer good ki/kokyu responses quite well. They also have a good understanding of how and what they are doing, so they can apply the same principles across a spectrum of "tests". Are you suggesting that someone could do the same thing after reading Carol's books? Even more specific, can YOU tell us how to do these things, how the body works when it is being done, etc.?

This would be some good and useful information for the same "well-intentioned and sincere beginners", Lynn... this very forum. If you can point out where that useable information is in Carol's book or explain it yourself, it would be appreciated by many, I am sure.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

roosvelt
12-06-2005, 11:02 AM
This would be some good and useful information for the same "well-intentioned and sincere beginners", Lynn... this very forum. If you can point out where that useable information is in Carol's book or explain it yourself,



Sure I can point out some "useful" information, maybe Lynn Sensei can explain them to me since I have trouble understanding them.

On samurai walk, Carol offered two "useful" analogy.

1. it's the same way a kid play with teddy bear.

I'm too old and dumb to do that, so I won't even try to figure out what that means.

2. It serves the same function as glamour girl (fashion model) walk, to expose less body to your opponents.

I actually turned on TV that night and watched a few cat walk shows in the Fashion TV. Actually it's quite enjoyable though I couldn't figure out its relationship to samurai walk.

On sword cutting, which I think it's important for understanding Aikido.

Carol said the power comes from the base hand. I just can't get it. Maybe Lynn Sensei can put words into her mouth to make it at least sound correct.

IMHO, they're confusing information at best, misleading information to be frank.

There're also other funny ideas which I can't remember without the book in front of me. It makes me wonder if Carol can perform whatever she described in her book, or she just has good imangination.

Don't you guys who know George Simcox Sensei feel obliged to defend his honour by pointing out the correction knowledge from him?

roosvelt
12-06-2005, 11:05 AM
I don't see where it has much functionally useful information in it, Roosvelt. The lack of information makes me curious, in fact. There is far better information to be found on Bo Jiacong's DVD's, if you're interested. But even then, you need some help getting past a few hurdles.

Regards,

Mike

Thanks, I'll try to find it locally. If not, I'll buy it over net.

tedehara
12-07-2005, 01:04 PM
Sure I can point out some "useful" information, maybe Lynn Sensei can explain them to me since I have trouble understanding them.

On samurai walk, Carol offered two "useful" analogy.

1. it's the same way a kid play with teddy bear.

I'm too old and dumb to do that, so I won't even try to figure out what that means.

2. It serves the same function as glamour girl (fashion model) walk, to expose less body to your opponents.

I actually turned on TV that night and watched a few cat walk shows in the Fashion TV. Actually it's quite enjoyable though I couldn't figure out its relationship to samurai walk.In both cases you swivel your hips as you move. In suwariwaza (samurai walk) your hips swivel from one side to the other side as you move forward.

If you think about it, you're moving from one hanmi position to another, except you're on your knees instead of standing.

BTW fashion models cross-step (step across the forward foot) to accentuate the swiveling of the hips. From a martial viewpoint, this is really bad form because it leads to an unstable position.
On sword cutting, which I think it's important for understanding Aikido.

Carol said the power comes from the base hand. I just can't get it. Maybe Lynn Sensei can put words into her mouth to make it at least sound correct...In cutting with a Japanese two-handed sword, the top hand is the control hand. The bottom hand is the power hand.

The bottom hand swings down naturally. This gives the power to the cut. If the angle of the cut is changed, that is done through the top hand.

If you start in a shomen position (sword overhead) but intend to step forward and cut yokomen (at an angle) then you change the angle of the sword tip by using the top hand. Trying to push the sword into the correct angle using both hands could take too long and your intended victim might be able to counter.

Pauliina Lievonen
12-07-2005, 01:42 PM
1. it's the same way a kid play with teddy bear.

2. It serves the same function as glamour girl (fashion model) walk, to expose less body to your opponents.
I think these two refer to walking same hip/foot and shoulder/hand forward. Models sometimes do this, too, although not in such an obvious way.

kvaak
Pauliina

Ron Tisdale
12-07-2005, 01:45 PM
Don't you guys who know George Simcox Sensei feel obliged to defend his honour by pointing out the correction knowledge from him?

I don't know if you realize it, but he died some years ago. That's why people who trained with him like the books. They have a context with their teacher in which to view the writing, which is probably why it makes more sense to them than to you.

Ted answered your other questions pretty well...and those answers go a little on point to the discussion. With a framework of training in a dojo under a good instructor, I don't think those particular points would have been lost on someone. Especially the point about the base hand...since even in empty hand waza, there is often a hand that provides a base (as in kotegaishi) and a hand that cuts. I can't speak to the rest of the book though.

Best,
Ron

Upyu
12-07-2005, 03:47 PM
I guess the real question would be is not which hand provides the power etc, (since that's kind of a given for all JMAs, even Kendo) but where the power in the base hand is generated from :-D

The samurai walk, same hand foot thing is all the rage in the sports world these days in Japan. Its called "Namba" aruki (as opposed to Nanpa aruki something compleeeeetely different :-D ) Anyways, this wannabe koryu guy called Koono (甲野) has been tossing book after book after magazine after NHK serial etc etc on the subject.
He even roped in Genki Sudo from the UFC to try changing how he moved (surprise surprise, it gave him more effecient movement for his groundgame as well)
Basically its the way Japanese used to move about 100 years back and is(supposed to be) more biomechanically effecient.
I forget which runner started training using that method, but he placed third in the World Games using namba-hasiri or namba running. Small little asian dude outrunning africans...imagine that lol.
Too bad he didn't do as well in the Olympics.

Anyways, the whole Namba movement is only the tip of the iceberg.
Funnily enough most CMA movements are also "Namba" in nature ;)

Rupert Atkinson
12-07-2005, 04:49 PM
I think the namba 'hustle' is interesting. I too have been experimenting with it as I usually place more emphasis than usual on the swinging hip (normal?) method. I think the 'hustle' has more potential than I had originally thought. (for some reason, I call it a 'hustle').

Last summer - I think I wrote this somewhere else - we had a sports day and everyone expected a young guy in our dept. to win the running race as he was fresh out of the marines and as fit as the proverbial fiddle. He set off on the final leg (I think it was the 400m relay) equal against an overwieght looking Chinese exchange student. The Chinese guy ran like an old woman - belly first, head back - and did not swing his hips at all etc. Everyone noticed and started laughing - it really was funny. But the best part was that while he got off ot a slow start he kept it up and ran like like a steam train -- and won! I was really surprised, as was everyone. when jogging inthe morning, I sometimes try it, but first make sure no one is around to see me :) Also, if you want to run with the namba 'hustle' put your hands firmly on your belly to eliminate arm swing and start slowly.

Sword hands - my take is that the lower hand provides the speed and general direction (by swiveling the bottom left and right) and that the top hand controls the angle/twist of the blade and that power is added by the top hand the moment the cut strikes its target. I should add that when I swivel left or right with my bottom hand it is rather a case of the hand following my hips - if my hips twist left slightly then the bottom sword hand swivels left, meaining the tip of the sword crosses the centre to the right slightly (namba 'hustle' style). Of course, I also like to do exactly the opposite - swinging hips style, cutting left while my hips are turned to the right.

Mike Sigman
12-07-2005, 05:02 PM
The bottom hand swings down naturally. This gives the power to the cut. If the angle of the cut is changed, that is done through the top hand.

If you start in a shomen position (sword overhead) but intend to step forward and cut yokomen (at an angle) then you change the angle of the sword tip by using the top hand. Trying to push the sword into the correct angle using both hands could take too long and your intended victim might be able to counter. But.... where does the "Ki" come in????? ;)

Mike

Rupert Atkinson
12-07-2005, 05:29 PM
But.... where does the "Ki" come in????? ;)

Mike

It wells up inside as you face your oppoment real or imaginary; as your prepare for action the energy of your whole body comes together with movement originating from the centre; as you strike the energy focuses from your centre, along your extending arms, to the end of the sword, and the path of energy is opened and focused further by kiai. That's how I see it.

Alfonso
12-07-2005, 05:58 PM
doesn't the base hand get power from dropping the hips? if so, the power is primarily gravity.
where does the power come from in raising the sword ?

Josh Reyer
12-07-2005, 09:17 PM
I guess the real question would be is not which hand provides the power etc, (since that's kind of a given for all JMAs, even Kendo) but where the power in the base hand is generated from :-D

The samurai walk, same hand foot thing is all the rage in the sports world these days in Japan. Its called "Namba" aruki (as opposed to Nanpa aruki something compleeeeetely different :-D ) Anyways, this wannabe koryu guy called Koono (甲野) has been tossing book after book after magazine after NHK serial etc etc on the subject.
He even roped in Genki Sudo from the UFC to try changing how he moved (surprise surprise, it gave him more effecient movement for his groundgame as well)
Basically its the way Japanese used to move about 100 years back and is(supposed to be) more biomechanically effecient.
I forget which runner started training using that method, but he placed third in the World Games using namba-hasiri or namba running. Small little asian dude outrunning africans...imagine that lol.
Too bad he didn't do as well in the Olympics.

Anyways, the whole Namba movement is only the tip of the iceberg.
Funnily enough most CMA movements are also "Namba" in nature ;)

Along the lines of shiko, this is also a basic sumo movement.

Upyu
12-07-2005, 10:55 PM
Along the lines of shiko, this is also a basic sumo movement.

Now we're talkin :D

tedehara
12-08-2005, 05:32 AM
I guess the real question would be is not which hand provides the power etc, (since that's kind of a given for all JMAs, even Kendo) but where the power in the base hand is generated from :-D

The samurai walk, same hand foot thing is all the rage in the sports world these days in Japan. Its called "Namba" aruki (as opposed to Nanpa aruki something compleeeeetely different :-D ) Anyways, this wannabe koryu guy called Koono (甲野) has been tossing book after book after magazine after NHK serial etc etc on the subject.
He even roped in Genki Sudo from the UFC to try changing how he moved (surprise surprise, it gave him more effecient movement for his groundgame as well)
Basically its the way Japanese used to move about 100 years back and is(supposed to be) more biomechanically effecient.
I forget which runner started training using that method, but he placed third in the World Games using namba-hasiri or namba running. Small little asian dude outrunning africans...imagine that lol.
Too bad he didn't do as well in the Olympics.

Anyways, the whole Namba movement is only the tip of the iceberg.
Funnily enough most CMA movements are also "Namba" in nature ;)Even though suwari waza has been called "samurai walk" in books like Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, I don't think it is the same thing that you're writing about. Although you do keep your arm with your same side leg while moving.

Suwari waza is a way to get around when you're kneeling. The idea is you're sitting seiza in a traditional Japanese setting, when you have to suddenly move. It's been mentioned that you can do almost every aikido technique from kneeling that you can do standing up.

The samurai walk that you're writing about is the actual way samurai use to walk, keeping the same hand and leg moving together with the hand always in front of the leg. I believe it allowed access to their weapons faster than the modern way of walking, since the hands never swing back.

I should have realized this had become a hot topic in Japan when I hear a senior instructor talking about this in a seminar. You can also see this mentioned in the samurai film The Hidden Blade (http://www.moviexclusive.com/review/hidden/hidden%20blade.htm).

tedehara
12-08-2005, 05:34 AM
But.... where does the "Ki" come in????? ;)

MikeHi ya Mike
Ki is extended.
It's already there.
:cool: kool!

Mike Sigman
12-08-2005, 08:15 AM
It wells up inside as you face your oppoment real or imaginary; as your prepare for action the energy of your whole body comes together with movement originating from the centre; as you strike the energy focuses from your centre, along your extending arms, to the end of the sword, and the path of energy is opened and focused further by kiai. That's how I see it.Hi Rupert: What "energy focuses from your centre"? That's the heart of what I'm trying to ask. How does Ki *functionally* apply to the sword swing? How does it give or add power to the swing? If it's just a matter of how you grip the sword, which hand is the "power" hand, etc., one may as well be the ordinary lumberjack, plying his trade. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
12-08-2005, 08:20 AM
Hi ya Mike
Ki is extended.
It's already there.
:cool: kool! Well, Ki is always "extended", Ted, just as the "heavyside" is always kept down. The mind controls those things. But in a sword swing the Ki is actually applied and it has a large bearing on the sword and the power to the sword. I was asking for someone to *functionally* describe how that works, since it's so important. Surely there are some sword experts or "Koryu" experts or "Ki experts" who can describe this critical application of Ki without necessarily "giving away the store"? ;)


Regards,

Mike

roosvelt
12-08-2005, 09:27 AM
Well, Ki is always "extended", Ted, just as the "heavyside" is always kept down. The mind controls those things. But in a sword swing the Ki is actually applied and it has a large bearing on the sword and the power to the sword. I was asking for someone to *functionally* describe how that works, since it's so important. Surely there are some sword experts or "Koryu" experts or "Ki experts" who can describe this critical application of Ki without necessarily "giving away the store"? ;)


Regards,

Mike

Allow me give it a try.

--Keep one-point, wherever it is.
--Keep focus, imagine you cut beyond your opponent.
--Extend Ki, use breathing power.
--Connect the sword to your center. cut with your center.
--Mind, body, spirit become one.

"Ouch", I just twisted my pinky while typing. I'll get back to you to show you how big a Ki expert I am and how deep knowledge i know about ki when I heal my pinky in a few weeks.

Mike Sigman
12-08-2005, 10:08 AM
--Keep one-point, wherever it is.

--Keep focus, imagine you cut beyond your opponent.
--Extend Ki, use breathing power.
--Connect the sword to your center. cut with your center.
--Mind, body, spirit become one.

OK, but I'm asking the posters on the list who teach or who have years of experience to functionally explain how you *physically* do these things:

1. "Keep the one Point". This can be described with clear words... it doesn't need vagaries or "here's my opinion". It can be explained, particularly by those that profess to understand it. The idea that it can't be explained is the refuge of the BS artists.

2. "Keep Focus". You should "keep focus" when you are cutting celery or stepping onto the escalator, too. So why is "keep focus" anything more than a statement of the obvious?

3. "Extend Ki, use breathing power". Exactly how does someone "extend ki"? Can someone demonstrate it to me? (Yes, I know there are some readers of the forum that can actually demonstrate it, but I'm questioning some of the others who have opined with assertions, both correct and misleading). What is "breathing power" or "breath power".... everyone uses the term, but most of the people I encounter use there shoulders in some variety of forceful move and call it "kokyu power".

4. How does someone "connect a sword to their center"???? How is it functionally done? And I assure you that it's done the same way in Japan and China, so perhaps some Koryu expert can tell us in detail how to do it. Or some "advanced" teacher. This is a simple thing to describe, in reality.... but why can't it be found in the AikiWeb archives?????????????

5. What is meant by "mind, body, spirit becoming one", other than a catchy phrase that Pilates and every other New Age derived trend uses. What does this term mean that makes it remarkably different enough, in reality, that the Asians made a point of referring to it??????

It would be nice to see some of the people who have had the temerity to put up a shingle also have the temerity to tackle these questions on the public forum. :cool:

FWIW

Mike "What is the Sound of a Thread Stopping?" Sigman

roosvelt
12-08-2005, 10:33 AM
OK, but I'm asking the posters on the list who teach or who have years of experience to functionally explain how you *physically* do these things:
:
:
:

5. What is meant by "mind, body, spirit becoming one", other than a catchy phrase that Pilates and every other New Age derived trend uses. What does this term mean that makes it remarkably different enough, in reality, that the Asians made a point of referring to it??????

It would be nice to see some of the people who have had the temerity to put up a shingle also have the temerity to tackle these questions on the public forum. :cool:


Sorry, I forgot the catch all phrase. "Just train harder, in 10 years, maybe 20, you'll understand what I said. (though I just lifted those hollow cathy phrases off "aikido for dummy")"

Mary Eastland
12-08-2005, 02:33 PM
Last night my class did ushiro tekubi tori kyoku nage into a big roll. They went through the line twice then I had them lead with a twisted up kleenex like it was suggested in this book. It was really interesting. A couple of people tore the heck out of the kleenex and others were able to lead and follow.
I appreciate this book...I like good ideas wherever I find them.
Mary

Mike Sigman
12-08-2005, 03:12 PM
Last night my class did ushiro tekubi tori kyoku nage into a big roll. They went through the line twice then I had them lead with a twisted up kleenex like it was suggested in this book. It was really interesting. A couple of people tore the heck out of the kleenex and others were able to lead and follow.
I appreciate this book...I like good ideas wherever I find them.
MaryAnd was this "Ki" or was it something you liked doing? Maybe if you offer your attacker a kleenex......

;)

Mike

Misogi-no-Gyo
12-08-2005, 03:27 PM
works, since it's so important. Surely there are some sword experts or "Koryu" experts or "Ki experts" who can describe this critical application of Ki without necessarily "giving away the store"? ;)


Regards,

Mikey


Hey Mike,

Why not give it a try... You know, (yawn) for the "rest" of us...

...ho-hum...



.

eyrie
12-08-2005, 05:01 PM
OK, but I'm asking the posters on the list who teach or who have years of experience to functionally explain how you *physically* do these things:

1. "Keep the one Point". This can be described with clear words... it doesn't need vagaries or "here's my opinion". It can be explained, particularly by those that profess to understand it. The idea that it can't be explained is the refuge of the BS artists.

2. "Keep Focus". You should "keep focus" when you are cutting celery or stepping onto the escalator, too. So why is "keep focus" anything more than a statement of the obvious?

3. "Extend Ki, use breathing power". Exactly how does someone "extend ki"? Can someone demonstrate it to me? (Yes, I know there are some readers of the forum that can actually demonstrate it, but I'm questioning some of the others who have opined with assertions, both correct and misleading). What is "breathing power" or "breath power".... everyone uses the term, but most of the people I encounter use there shoulders in some variety of forceful move and call it "kokyu power".

4. How does someone "connect a sword to their center"???? How is it functionally done? And I assure you that it's done the same way in Japan and China, so perhaps some Koryu expert can tell us in detail how to do it. Or some "advanced" teacher. This is a simple thing to describe, in reality.... but why can't it be found in the AikiWeb archives?????????????

5. What is meant by "mind, body, spirit becoming one", other than a catchy phrase that Pilates and every other New Age derived trend uses. What does this term mean that makes it remarkably different enough, in reality, that the Asians made a point of referring to it??????

It would be nice to see some of the people who have had the temerity to put up a shingle also have the temerity to tackle these questions on the public forum. :cool:

FWIW

Mike "What is the Sound of a Thread Stopping?" Sigman

Hard questions Mike! But these are the sorts of questions that very few truly interested beginners ask. ;)

Personally, I find it difficult to explain these terms directly, and for me, it is much easier to use alternative terminology to "point" to the underlying concepts and principles instead. So, rarely do I ever use these terms to describe what the student is meant to be doing, as often the attempt at explaining these things usually go over their head anyway - not that I fully understand these myself.

What I do is quite simple - simple enough for my 8 year old to understand and replicate. I mostly explain things in terms of simple body movement, how to stand, where to place the feet, how to transfer weight from one foot to the other, how to take someone's balance based on how they're standing etc. etc. and why.

I also tend to use simple geometric shapes and angles to describe things like directions of "force", body structure etc.

Take for example a simple exercise like katate tori kokyu nage tenkan. Someone grabs your wrist. Leave your hand where it is and pivot around your hand, as you pivot, turn the hand over so the palm is facing down. Now pick up the imaginary coin you see on the ground in front of your foot (on the same side as the hand that is grabbed).

As you pick up the coin, transfer weight from your back foot to the front foot, and breathe out, like we do in fune kogi undo.

Of course I don't explain everything all at once, but I will add little pointers to the basic movement as the student progresses.

It has to be really simple, if an 8 year old is to understand and replicate what they're meant to be doing. If it is not couched in terms that they can understand and replicate, then I have failed as a supposed "teacher". So if the 8 year old can understand and replicate the basic movement, I don't see why an adult couldn't.

I believe that there is no need to use obscure terminology like ki or kokyu or one-point etc. to describe such things, even though that is ultimately what they end up doing. Most things can be explained using simple geometry and mechanics, so in addition to "learning" aikido, the student is also getting a free lesson in basic geometry and Newtonian physics. :)

My 8 year old has an incredible energy, which manifests itself naturally when he relaxes his shoulders and lets it happen. He can throw me (as well as much older and bigger students) quite easily since he already understands how to effect kuzushi along perpendicular lines of the body's structure - and it's not that I make it easy for him to throw me either, so he "knows" when he's trying to use muscular force instead of his "natural" abilities and understanding of the directional forces involved.

So if my 8 year old can understand and do it, I guess I must be doing "something" right. ;)

eyrie
12-09-2005, 06:36 AM
Guess I killed the thread huh?

SeiserL
12-09-2005, 08:39 AM
Guess I killed the thread huh?
No, the actual thread died a long time ago at some one else's hand. We just hadn't removed the bodies yet.

IMHO, don't take anything too personal.

So, go train or read a good book.

Ron Tisdale
12-09-2005, 09:18 AM
Guess I killed the thread huh?

Hi Ignatius, it's not so much that you killed the thread...it's more that your answer was more technique based. Mike is looking for someone to describe the mechanics of ki / aiki / kokyu...his perspective is that it is separate from specific technique, and can be described without referring to waza. I have to admit, he has a good point there, even though I'm still more technique based myself. But I'm working on it...

Best,
Ron

roosvelt
12-09-2005, 09:58 AM
Guess I killed the thread huh?

Yep. You set a high standard that many find its hard to hide behind big words.

Could you use the same simple language to describe kokyu-dosa (sitting position)? Thanks.

roosvelt
12-09-2005, 10:01 AM
So, go train or read a good book.

Which do you consider a good book if you thought Carol's books were great job?

Mike Sigman
12-09-2005, 02:22 PM
Mike is looking for someone to describe the mechanics of ki / aiki / kokyu...his perspective is that it is separate from specific technique, and can be described without referring to waza. I have to admit, he has a good point there, even though I'm still more technique based myself. But I'm working on it... Ron, if there is "Ki" in just about every martial art you can think of in Asia, how could it be something only tied to Aikido waza? If someone wants to argue (and there are plenty that will do this) that Ki is some ephemeral part of all techniques, all life, all etceteras, then we get back to my "Dumb Ole Asians" theory... why did those dumb ole Asians even bother giving a distinct name of "Ki" to something applies to techniques, breath practice, etc. There was a reason. What I'm saying is that it really is a separate thing and there are plenty of clues that there is indeed something substantive to be looking for.

I remember one time long ago Ellis posted a story about an encounter between Wang Xu Jin and T.K. Chiba (a story that contradicts an interview Chiba once gave) and the upshot of the story was that Wang essentially told Chiba, ""You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire more?" The reason I mention this story, among tons I could bring up, is to illustrate that "Ki" is something that is common to both Chinese and Japanese and it's a specific thing.... **commonly discussed in martial arts circles but apparently LOST among westerners and most amateurs**.

To hear my comments, which are mundane, given the title of "perspective" is pretty fun to watch, Ron.... and I realize that YOU do it in a friendly manner with the best intentions. ;)

Best Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale
12-09-2005, 02:33 PM
and I realize that YOU do it in a friendly manner with the best intentions.

Absolutely...I guess I was just trying to soften the blow...;)

Best,
Ron (my mistake)

eyrie
12-09-2005, 04:26 PM
Ron,

I only used technique as a vehicle to externally describe what is really going on internally. The difficulty for me (when teaching) is striking a balance between complicating the movement and not enough movement. Otherwise it gets too "boring" for the younger ones. ;)

"Ki" is independent of technique, and can be developed when sitting, standing or moving, or in the case of yoga, holding various postures with the same sort of "tension" between hardness and flexibility. I will often do standing pole and chinkon kishin exercises as my "warm up" while the students go thru their own warm up routine. By the time I'm thru, I'm usually sweating profusely. ;)

If that makes sense?


Roosvelt,

First, let's talk about seiza. When you sit in seiza, what does the body structure look like? Your knees and feet form a triangular base, with the crown of your head at the apex of a pyramid. The question is, how do you topple a pyramid? Once you know how to topple a pyramid, you have a basic idea of the mechanical and angular forces required.

However, the way the forces can be applied is quite simple, which kinda defeats the purpose of the whole exercise. So, I treat suwari waza kokyu dosa as an interactive exercise between 2 people to develop hara power and to provide ki-kokyu resistance for each other. One person will attempt to hold the other person down with their hara, and attempt to push them over.

For the person being held down, the basic movement is the reverse of your basic "unbendable" arm. (i.e. you start unbendable arm with your arm bent). I say basic because there is more involved in the process. The object is to coordinate your breath and find the ground path from the ground contact points - your knees (+shins) and feet - and redirect the ground force internally, from the ground contact point, thru your hara and directly to your finger tips, via the elbows. Once you've established the ground force, roll your coccyx forward (in a sort of rude humping motion) and lift your pelvic floor, as you extend your triceps.

The force is extremely subtle but powerful in that if the person holding you down does not know how to redirect your force internally back to their ground contact points, evenly (remember we're trying to topple a pyramid), they will get toppled over. Coordination and, more importantly, control of the breath is one of the keys. Also, if the person being held down attempts to use shoulder strength, or is not coordinating their breath, you'll very quickly find out. ;)

So, in other words, kokyu dosa (for us) is a way for both partners to explore redirection of force internally. Brian Stamps (kaihei) showed me how the breath is worked. Basically, as you breathe in and out, you should maintain the hard-soft tension in the hands and extend the GRF into your partner. Most people tend to draw the wrists back as they breathe in, and in the process, will get pushed over. Most people also use a visual image of "breathing and extending" to the rear wall past uke's ears. I think this doesn't really help as many concentrate on the wall and neglect to use the ground path.

BTW, if you ever get the chance to host Brian, do yourself a favour and ask him to show you this. ;)

HTH

Ignatius "dumb ole Asian" Teo :)

eyrie
12-09-2005, 05:36 PM
Oh, one more thing I left out, when you unbalance your partner, attempt to hold them down using your hara - the same way you would (should?) do the ikkyo pin. Your partner should try to get up back into seiza, by using their hara. Allow them to try a few times before releasing your hold.

One of the hardest things I find to do is convey the understanding that aikido is not about the physical technique, but rather how you move your body (particularly the section of the torso, hips, thighs knees) and redirection of internal forces to or from the extremeties of the hands and feet.

If that makes sense?

Ignatius "not that I'm there yet myself" Teo

Mike Sigman
12-09-2005, 05:51 PM
One of the hardest things I find to do is convey the understanding that aikido is not about the physical technique, but rather how you move your body (particularly the section of the torso, hips, thighs knees) and redirection of internal forces to or from the extremeties of the hands and feet. Hmmmmmm. Well if you are "redirecting internal forces", Ignatius, why is it about "how you move your body"???? That's a good thought-starter and quite true. ;)

Mike

eyrie
12-09-2005, 06:00 PM
I believe it's because the movement is external manisfestation of such redirection and vice versa - but I could be way off target. Bear in mind none of this stuff I put out here was actually taught to me directly, since sensei never says more than a few words ;), so I am mainly experimenting and working these things out slooooooowwwwly.

I'm cross-posting here a post by Ron Shively from the FightingArts forum, which I think hints at the answer to the question:

One point about kata that alot of people do not mention is that much of the traditional kata were based not only on self-defense techniques, but they were also based on an advanced knowledge of Chinese medicine.

For example, in alot of the original kata, their stepping patterns did not actually deal with combat positioning, but rather with identifying specific acupuncture points along certain meridians. An example of this is the seven-star prayng mantis system-their forms are based on the liver meridian.

Traditionally, if you knew a kata's footwork or foot pattern, you had a good chance to know which meridian was your target, and which hand technique worked with which meridian.

Remember, that alot of katas were changed from open hand strikes to closed fist strikes to conceal the actual technique.

A closed fist represented a closed mind...

eyrie
12-09-2005, 08:23 PM
After more considered thought, you're right. It's not how you "move" your body. It's how your body moves by floating or sinking ki and exploiting the 4 polarities. Hah! Something new to confuse my students with. ;)

Mike Sigman
12-09-2005, 09:43 PM
Well, the saying is that motion approaches stillness... and I've found reference to that by Japanese Aikidoists, so some where along the way those bits were known or something. In other words, you shouldn't have to move at all to apply kokyu, at the higher levels (I consider this a theoretical ideal, of course; in reality most cases will need some form of movement/technique).

FWIW

Mike

David Yap
12-09-2005, 10:14 PM
After more considered thought, you're right. It's not how you "move" your body. It's how your body moves by floating or sinking ki and exploiting the 4 polarities. Hah! Something new to confuse my students with. ;)

I've been pondering this:

Hold a balloon that is filled with water in your hands. Move it slowly about and feel the water swirling in various directions inside. Our bodies are 99% (circa) water, stored in numerous "balloons". How we manage to harmonize and direct the swirls in all those "balloons" is beyond me. Then again, have a look at people suffering from extreme obese. When they move, the water in the balloons come to mind.

Perhaps "Ki" as in the dead-weigh feeling is that "water in the balloon feeling". Can this be expanded on? :D

David Y (another dumb ole ole Asian)

roosvelt
12-09-2005, 11:50 PM
After more considered thought, you're right. It's not how you "move" your body. It's how your body moves by floating or sinking ki and exploiting the 4 polarities. Hah! Something new to confuse my students with. ;)

I don't know exactly if I'm doing the floating/sinking ki right. I think I know what you're trying to say. The manipulating centre dictate body movement. But for a guy like me try to figure out how to move centre, don't you think the body movement is a clue/indicator or a tool to help figuring out how to move the centre?

For example, I inhale. If I life my arm natrually. I feel down and inward. By doing this more and more, now I can feel that my arm is lifted sometime by itself to the eye level. It's harder to go higher. I can not get it on top of my head. When I exhale, I feel it's simple to feel outward and upward.

Am I on the right path?

eyrie
12-10-2005, 12:54 AM
Well, the saying is that motion approaches stillness... and I've found reference to that by Japanese Aikidoists, so some where along the way those bits were known or something. In other words, you shouldn't have to move at all to apply kokyu, at the higher levels (I consider this a theoretical ideal, of course; in reality most cases will need some form of movement/technique).

FWIW

Mike

That one keeps coming up for me. Not quite there yet, although every now and then it does happen.

eyrie
12-10-2005, 12:56 AM
I've been pondering this:

Hold a balloon that is filled with water in your hands. Move it slowly about and feel the water swirling in various directions inside. Our bodies are 99% (circa) water, stored in numerous "balloons". How we manage to harmonize and direct the swirls in all those "balloons" is beyond me. Then again, have a look at people suffering from extreme obese. When they move, the water in the balloons come to mind.

Perhaps "Ki" as in the dead-weigh feeling is that "water in the balloon feeling". Can this be expanded on? :D

David Y (another dumb ole ole Asian)

Imagine your limbs are the balloons filling with water....or air or lead. ;)

eyrie
12-10-2005, 01:31 AM
I don't know exactly if I'm doing the floating/sinking ki right. I think I know what you're trying to say. The manipulating centre dictate body movement. But for a guy like me try to figure out how to move centre, don't you think the body movement is a clue/indicator or a tool to help figuring out how to move the centre?

For example, I inhale. If I life my arm natrually. I feel down and inward. By doing this more and more, now I can feel that my arm is lifted sometime by itself to the eye level. It's harder to go higher. I can not get it on top of my head. When I exhale, I feel it's simple to feel outward and upward.

Am I on the right path?

I'm not quite sure what this is in relation to. So I'll take a stab in the dark.

Imagine your whole body is a balloon. Inhale and expand the balloon. You should feel your arms wanting to lift. Exhale but control the contraction of the ballon and you should feel your arms wanting to sink. BTW, this is like the opening sequence of the taiji form lift hands.

I'm not sure why you would want to lift your hands higher than your head, unless you're attempting to hold up the sky, which I think is a different exercise.

Upyu
12-10-2005, 02:32 AM
I don't know exactly if I'm doing the floating/sinking ki right. I think I know what you're trying to say. The manipulating centre dictate body movement. But for a guy like me try to figure out how to move centre, don't you think the body movement is a clue/indicator or a tool to help figuring out how to move the centre?

For example, I inhale. If I life my arm natrually. I feel down and inward. By doing this more and more, now I can feel that my arm is lifted sometime by itself to the eye level. It's harder to go higher. I can not get it on top of my head. When I exhale, I feel it's simple to feel outward and upward.

Am I on the right path?

Go beyond that and try to find the path where the "energy" keeps "opening" upwards unending (but still maintains a cycle down to the earth at the same time ^^; ) There's a picture of sagawa throwing a bunch of guys with his hands raise up to "Ten" (or Banzai, depending how you look at it lol), which demonstartes that principal ;)
But I'd say you're probably on a similar track of thinking at least :)

Upyu
12-10-2005, 02:34 AM
unless you're attempting to hold up the sky, which I think is a different exercise.


Heh heh, it's different but the same I think. Understanding how the power flows up to "Ten" or the "heavens" is pretty key...

***going back to hugging my tree :D

eyrie
12-10-2005, 06:24 AM
I think ryote tori tenchi-nage may provide a more familiar context to explore this "feeling" of expanding upwards and downwards at the same time.

Mike Sigman
12-10-2005, 10:11 AM
Just as an aside, these conversations about "Ki" often go astray because there is a tendency to focus on one particular aspect of "Ki" and to then define it through metphors and analogy. The basic mistake, in my opinion, is to miss the point that "Ki" is actually composed of several phenomena that *can* be intertwined. Rob's lines of power are correct, but so is the balloon idea (to some extent... I'd say it needs to be corrected before someone trots off in that direction). The various phenomena that make up the body's "ki" can be defined (and you'd think that instructors in "Ai Ki Do" could do that to some extent!!), but there should be an understanding that "Ki" is actually an amalgam of several factors that would be considered separate by Western physiologist.

FWIW

Mike

roosvelt
12-10-2005, 09:46 PM
I think ryote tori tenchi-nage may provide a more familiar context to explore this "feeling" of expanding upwards and downwards at the same time.

Thanks. I just find techi is a little hard to get the right feeling. I just cheat by doing chi first then ten in the dojo. How do you breath when doing solo tenchinage? Thanks again.

Side note:

1. Falun gong has similar movement.

2. Ten - sky/heaven, Chi - ground/earth

They sound like very similar to Chinese pronouncation to me. Some Japanese words have the same kanji with Chinese word but different pronouncation. Tenchi has the same kanji and similar pronouncation.

eyrie
12-11-2005, 01:55 AM
Like Rob said, expand upwards and downwards at the same time. Before uke takes hold, you should already be breathing in and expanding the energy from your hara out to the fingers. As soon as uke takes hold, draw the energy up from the ground thru the rear foot as you step the lead foot out at a 45 degree angle, as you simultaneously spilt the energy down and up and spiral the hands. Start to breathe out, and unwind the body from the knees to mid torso, thru the rear foot - like a spring, all the while maintaining the hard-soft tension in your hands and release the energy thru your hands.

Breathing is the same if doing solo. IIRC, there is a similar exercise in the BaDuanJin, one hand holding up the sky and the other pressing the earth.

Mike Sigman
12-11-2005, 08:58 AM
Like Rob said, expand upwards and downwards at the same time. Before uke takes hold, you should already be breathing in and expanding the energy from your hara out to the fingers. As soon as uke takes hold, draw the energy up from the ground thru the rear foot as you step the lead foot out at a 45 degree angle, as you simultaneously spilt the energy down and up and spiral the hands. Start to breathe out, and unwind the body from the knees to mid torso, thru the rear foot - like a spring, all the while maintaining the hard-soft tension in your hands and release the energy thru your hands.

Breathing is the same if doing solo. IIRC, there is a similar exercise in the BaDuanJin, one hand holding up the sky and the other pressing the earth.Hi Ignatius:

Although it's correct to work on breathing, I often think it needs to be pointed out that you should be able to do a technique holding your breath or with 'incorrect' breathing. The point being that many breathing exercises are sort of a "workout" to develop a certain kind of strength (kokyu strength) and just like a biceps workout, the point is not to ingrain the rhythm of the workout but to build up the 'muscle'.

In respect to the BaDuanJin, the "Eight Pieces of Silk", the contradiction of holding up the sky and pressing down the earth is the same as in the "standing in the hole" exercise I mentioned to you. Everything is the same thing. ;)

FWIW

Mike

eyrie
12-11-2005, 04:12 PM
That's interesting. I've noticed pretty much the same thing on occasion, but wasn't sure if that was an anomaly or what - since most MA teach exhale at the point of "kime".

When you say build up the "muscle", it's the energy path created thru the skeletal structure, tendons and fascia isn't it?

Upyu
12-11-2005, 09:07 PM
For anyone interested, I thought I'd post video of some exercises that directly develop Ten-Chi-Jin, (sans breathwork, since its the first stage of training), as well as an exercise that develops this while moving etc. While it looks linear, it gradually morphs into a 6 directional/spherical feeling. Any comments? :)

PS Also sendfile was the only thing I could think of to post something this big that also had decent bandwith, if anyone has any other suggestions I'm all ears.

http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1DMN6XSUGQX0M2ESGB7B6AUTRF
Ten Chi Jin

http://s25.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3T4TSWZYT4NLY0X22T3APM2FLM
Shintaijiku - Low version

And I thought I'd share a basic result of this (through kicks, and not wristlocks this time. I'm sure everyone's seen enough of those ^^; ). For those that watch this, just a reminder that this is the most basic example of holding the body together (simply keeping the upper and middle tandens together, without other internal factors involved, and its done so it's easy to understand what's going on. (IE he can and does do it softer, and with more penetration...but doesn't for my sake ...which is a good thing, cuz even at that level it hurts like a b#"$. I think it's pretty self explanatory but if anyone has questions, doubts, flames, etc, fire away :)

--> Result (Difference in bodymechanics within the context of kicks)
http://www.filegone.com/xwzg

eyrie
12-11-2005, 11:01 PM
That's an awesome trick, backstroking up the wall... :p

The filegone kicking video doesn't work. :(

Upyu
12-11-2005, 11:36 PM
That's an awesome trick, backstroking up the wall... :p

The filegone kicking video doesn't work. :(
Awwww you're #$"ing me, I posted the unedited one where he defies gravity lol.

Reupped the kick video to yousendit for now
http://s11.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1IALCUCWATOH42UD2VSUONJ2Z4

Rotated version of shintaijiku ^^;
http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3TBU6WZQLUWGL280DRE0JQG3G8

Upyu
12-12-2005, 12:27 AM
Awwww you're #$"ing me, I posted the unedited one where he defies gravity lol.

Reupped the kick video to yousendit for now
http://s11.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1IALCUCWATOH42UD2VSUONJ2Z4

Rotated version of shintaijiku ^^;
http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3TBU6WZQLUWGL280DRE0JQG3G8

Ok, bad form I know (post after post of the same stuff), but I reposted the vids to a more long lasting site:

Ten-Chi-Jin
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Ten+Chi+Jin__2005-12-11_MOV01612.MPG

Shintai Jiku (Non gravity defying version)
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Shin+Tai+Jiku+Divx+-edited+to+not+defy+gravity-__2005-12-11_ShinTaiJiku+-+Low.avi

Difference in Kicks
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Difference+in+kicks__2005-12-11_Difference+in+Kicks.mpg

eyrie
12-12-2005, 12:39 AM
Is that you holding the shield? Can definitely hear the "thud" as opposed to the "slap". ;)
The footwork looks like taiji walking.

Upyu
12-12-2005, 01:23 AM
Is that you holding the shield? Can definitely hear the "thud" as opposed to the "slap". ;)
The footwork looks like taiji walking.

Outed! Lol, yea that's me ^^;
Footwork actually comes from his Koryu background. Wouldn't be surprised if it looks like Tai Chi walking... it happens a lot. Footwork comes naturally. I can do that same kick he shows and floor people heavier than me. It's not pleasant to the reciever. :uch:

Additional tidbit, I can stand kicks thrown by heavier guys than me (and not fat ^^;) w/ say a muay thai background (through a pad of course! I'm not claiming uberChIKIPrana status here lol), and not be knocked back. His strikes inherently destroy the person's root...and you can see my pelvic crease cave in, and that's not me just "giving" in. That's not the part that hurts tho, it literally goes through and rattles the spine and head which is the real !#"$&.
Same wih throws, pins, whatever. Gives a quick and very personable walkthrough of how the energy travels and affects you :dead:

Josh Reyer
12-12-2005, 03:12 AM
Rob,

Could you repost on yousendit the earlier videos of Akuzawa you put up on filegone? The ones you posted in the pinky threads, and in the "Hidden In Plain Sight" thread on Aikido Journal? I get nothing when I click on the filegone links.

Mike Sigman
12-12-2005, 07:26 AM
That's interesting. I've noticed pretty much the same thing on occasion, but wasn't sure if that was an anomaly or what - since most MA teach exhale at the point of "kime".

When you say build up the "muscle", it's the energy path created thru the skeletal structure, tendons and fascia isn't it?Well, no. I'm talking about the Ki structure it self. You can learn jin/kokyu and some 'hard-style' methods of building up around it, but adding the actual ki essentially boosts your power because it supports and adds to the power so much. There is a saying that essentially "Ki itself is not very strong, but when added to correct use of muscle (jin/kokyu) your power increases greatly."

FWIW

Mike

eyrie
12-13-2005, 01:57 AM
OK, I'm confused.... ki structure? Since ki is defined functionally by what it does, how does it have "structure"? Do you mean the relational "structure(s)" thru which ki originates, manifests, circulates, etc., i.e. skin, channels, fascia, organs, bones?

Mike Sigman
12-13-2005, 08:10 AM
OK, I'm confused.... ki structure? Since ki is defined functionally by what it does, how does it have "structure"? Do you mean the relational "structure(s)" thru which ki originates, manifests, circulates, etc., i.e. skin, channels, fascia, organs, bones?Ah. Complicated question. Hmmmmmmm. When you are doing the 4 wrists exercises... you are training to bring the Ki out to the wrists, hands, forearms. It is not a warmup or stretch the wrists, per se, although a warmup and some stretching do take place. Try doing the self-applied nikyo in the wrist exercises, but first inhale and pull in slightly on the stomach area. Let the nikyo be applied not so much by you twisting with the upper arm but by simply letting the body sink while you feel for the 'stretched' areas from the arm to the back (lower lumbar area). Try to manipulate things so that you feel the actual twist you are applying to the upper arm wind up somewhere in the lower back. Ta da.... you are working on developing the ki out to your wrists (in this example... and remember I said Ki can be several different things, so don't think you've got the whole answer).

Although you've roughly approached the functional ki in this exercise because you are stretching the myofascial sheets, you're using 'air pressure', etc., there is also the 'magnetic feeling' thing that is associated with 'ki' (it's not very functional, but it's kewl and it gives Reiki practitioners something to make a living with). These are all part of the holistic whole that makes up Ki and gives it the idea of "flow". The actual 'flow' and movement of strange feelings associated with developed ki (the real feelings, not the one the New Age people immediately feel on their first encounter) comes along pretty quick after you begin developing the functional ki. I actually told you enough to extrapolate and figure out the principles, to a reasonable degree, of beginning to develop you actual ki. You owe me a pint, mate. ;^)

Mike

eyrie
12-13-2005, 08:30 AM
Thanks Mike, but you'll have to get your butt down here to sample some of my finest homebrew....
If I said I'm past this stage, and can send ki to my grabbed wrist and extend it into uke's center (to remove their root) do you owe me a pint? ;)

Mike Sigman
12-13-2005, 09:09 AM
Thanks Mike, but you'll have to get your butt down here to sample some of my finest homebrew....
If I said I'm past this stage, and can send ki to my grabbed wrist and extend it into uke's center (to remove their root) do you owe me a pint? ;)Only if you do it to me so I can feel what you're doing. I'll bet you another pint that you uproot yourself..... ;) I enjoy a good ki-battle. To an outside observer, it appears that nothing is happening.

Mike

David Yap
12-13-2005, 10:55 AM
Only if you do it to me so I can feel what you're doing. I'll bet you another pint that you uproot yourself..... ;) I enjoy a good ki-battle. To an outside observer, it appears that nothing is happening.

Hi Mike,

Are referring to tai-chi or yichuan "push hands"?

Cheers

David Y

Mike Sigman
12-13-2005, 11:35 AM
Hi Mike,

Are referring to tai-chi or yichuan "push hands"? Hi David:

Actually, I was referring to Ignatius's idea of someone grabbing his wrist and him uprooting them through their center. Regardless of Aikido, Taiji, Yiquan, etc., the idea is applicable in all of them. What I was saying that if someone attempts to send 'ki' (in this case, he's referring to the force-vector controls and calling them 'ki'.... although that's an accepted usage of the term 'ki', I don't like to use it because it is part of all the things that mislead beginners about what 'ki' is) in a way that uproots me, I can (usually, depending on the other person's skill level) counter in a subtle way, without moving, that will make them uproot themselves.

FWIW

Mike

eyrie
12-13-2005, 05:50 PM
I have no doubt that you could. My sensei and any of my sempai could. So I guess I'll be owing you 2 pints then.... ;)

* goes back to hugging trees and lifting rocks out of holes *

David Yap
12-14-2005, 05:53 AM
.., I can (usually, depending on the other person's skill level) counter in a subtle way, without moving, that will make them uproot themselves.

Hi Mike,

I believe you could. Have experienced it first hand from a few shihan, namely Tada sensei, Tamura sensei and Nakao sensei and a couple weeks ago from Fukakusa sensei. Good experience indeed and still figuring them out. Some help from you, perhaps.

Regards

David Y

Mike Sigman
12-14-2005, 06:32 AM
I believe you could. Have experienced it first hand from a few shihan, namely Tada sensei, Tamura sensei and Nakao sensei and a couple weeks ago from Fukakusa sensei. Good experience indeed and still figuring them out. Some help from you, perhaps.HI David:

The problem is that we may be talking about 2 different things, in this case. My description of "subtle" is, if my experience is any indicator, probably about something that is different from what you're thinking of. I'm talking about something very subtle, not just a subtle use of muscle-derived forces or force vectors. And the real problem that I've finally figured out is that without some sort or real "ki" development (the kind OSensei did with his Buddhist-derived breathing exercises), I don't think you can get there. It's sort of like trying to do some subtle gymnastics tricks but never really understanding how to do them until the body's strengths have reached a suitable level (maybe not a clear analogy, but I'm just saying that until there is a certain level of Ki, some subtleties simply remain a mystery).

There's a common description in Chinese martial arts which I've also encountered occasionally in Japanese martial arts about the 'levels' of power. Generally, the idea is that if you put technique aside as a separate subject, power itself can be looked at as (1.) Obvious (2.) Hidden, and (3.) Mysterious. Some of what I described seeing Shioda, Sunadomari, et al do falls into the "mysterious" range, but in actuality it shows a level of power usage that involves the manipulation of jin/kokyu at levels that are not there until the body has been developed up to a certain level.

If I had to reiterate some pertinent comments I've made in the past, I think the problem with Aikido has to do with not enough information having reached the current yudanshakai and shihan levels and then having let the important body-development aspects of Aiki-Taiso, Suburi, etc., get by unnoticed. What's interesting about the on-scene arrival of someone like Rob John is that he brings to the table some indications of a teacher (Akuzawa) who is teaching directly toward body power (although in some ways it is more of a Southern Shaolin approach than I think O-Sensei used, IMO). I think all of these approaches and the focuses on Ki and Kokyu development need to become the top priority of the current younger generation of Aikido (not to mention the other martial arts which have been going on looks, style, techniques, etc., rather than the core of the arts.

FWIW

Mike

roosvelt
12-14-2005, 09:40 AM
Footwork actually comes from his Koryu background. Wouldn't be surprised if it looks like Tai Chi walking...



Are you sure?

From your club web site, he seems to be a tai chi and xing yi master. I believe Mike's observation is correct about his walking style.

Could you ask him to be sure? Thanks.

roosvelt
12-14-2005, 09:55 AM
Are you sure?

From your club web site, he seems to be a tai chi and xing yi master. I believe Mike's observation is correct about his walking style.

Could you ask him to be sure? Thanks.

It seems that he also teaches standing poster. Isn't that a Kanji "ZHAN ZHUANG' in your club web site?

I think you mentioned something that he accquired his internal power from some Japanese arts. Are you sure you've got the story straight? Isn't that weired for a guy who practice "zhan zhuang", tai chi and xing yin to claim that he got his Ki from other source?

I'm confused.

kironin
12-14-2005, 11:43 AM
Hi David:

Actually, I was referring to Ignatius's idea of someone grabbing his wrist and him uprooting them through their center. Regardless of Aikido, Taiji, Yiquan, etc., the idea is applicable in all of them. What I was saying that if someone attempts to send 'ki' (in this case, he's referring to the force-vector controls and calling them 'ki'.... although that's an accepted usage of the term 'ki', I don't like to use it because it is part of all the things that mislead beginners about what 'ki' is) in a way that uproots me, I can (usually, depending on the other person's skill level) counter in a subtle way, without moving, that will make them uproot themselves.

FWIW
Mike


Interesting. could you uproot them if they were not "attempting to send 'ki'" ? but simply being there with correct alignment and proper expansive state of relaxation ? My goal is not to attempt anything but just be there, connect the moment of contact by just being there already without moving so the person can't feel anything to counter. That sounds like what you mean by "if I could feel what you are doing"

roosvelt
12-14-2005, 11:54 AM
Interesting. could you uproot them if they were not "attempting to send 'ki'" ? but simply being there with correct alignment and proper expansive state of relaxation ? My goal is not to attempt anything but just be there, connect the moment of contact by just being there already without moving so the person can't feel anything to counter. That sounds like what you mean by "if I could feel what you are doing"

I think Mike will give a seminar somewhere in TX. Why don't you go and try it on Mike first hand? If Mike can't uproot you, you get your seminar money back, gas money for the trip and a pint of beer from Mike. If Mike rproot you, you can write a detailed report about the seminar and REALLY rethink about your Aikido practice.

Isn't that fun to arrange a due if you have nothing to loose? :D

Mike Sigman
12-14-2005, 11:58 AM
Interesting. could you uproot them if they were not "attempting to send 'ki'" ? but simply being there with correct alignment and proper expansive state of relaxation ? My goal is not to attempt anything but just be there, connect the moment of contact by just being there already without moving so the person can't feel anything to counter. That sounds like what you mean by "if I could feel what you are doing" If someone just grabs you but disconnects the hands from the body, then of course you cannot control their center with your center (and conversely, they can't do anything to you until they hook their hands up). If someone is not doing anything, it is common, even in Aikido, to make some move that forces them to react and then you utilize that. If someone grabs my wrist and just 'disconnects' to make a point (although I'm not sure what the point is), I will simply ignore that arm and attack with some other part of my body... although I may do that even if they are connecting the hands to body. ;)

However, the point is what that a force can be blended with in either obvious or subtle ways to result in some other desired outcome. That is called "aiki" in Aikido... the Chinese refer to it as "change".

FWIW

Mike

roosvelt
12-14-2005, 12:28 PM
If someone just grabs you but disconnects the hands from the body, then of course you cannot control their center with your center (and conversely, they can't do anything to you until they hook their hands up). If someone is not doing anything, it is common, even in Aikido, to make some move that forces them to react and then you utilize that. If someone grabs my wrist and just 'disconnects' to make a point (although I'm not sure what the point is), I will simply ignore that arm and attack with some other part of my body... although I may do that even if they are connecting the hands to body. ;)



I don't think I know what you tow talking about.

If Craig grabs Mike's right hand with his right hand, and he disconnect his right hand with his center, can Mike lifts up his right hand to hit graig's face. If so, what's the meaning of "grab" then?

If Mike can't raise his hand, then how can Craig hold Mike's hand down without his centre engaged?

I need to see them in action to get an answer. ;)

Upyu
12-14-2005, 02:45 PM
It seems that he also teaches standing poster. Isn't that a Kanji "ZHAN ZHUANG' in your club web site?

I think you mentioned something that he accquired his internal power from some Japanese arts. Are you sure you've got the story straight? Isn't that weired for a guy who practice "zhan zhuang", tai chi and xing yin to claim that he got his Ki from other source?

I'm confused.

Nope, I'm sure.
All those postures actually came from his Koryu teacher.
The "Shintaijiku" is actually a Yagyu Shingan Ryu exercise, as well as the Ten-Chi-Jin exercise. He does teach Tai Chi ('as a health thing for the old ladies), and did reverse engineer the Hsing-I form based on what he knows. A lot of people that see him move think he does Baji-fist. Interestingly enough it all works out to become similar, although I'm sure there are different places of emphasis in internal movement depending on the practicioner. The foundation is still basically the same.

Btw which Kanji were you referring to?
He might've used the word since its easier to describe it that way, but his internal background is basically all koryu.
The only connection to CMA is that he used to be part of the Neijia Research Institute here in Tokyo, but he even openly says he got nothing from You Susumu who's the head instructor there. And none of You's students have anything (they love to run around doing taolu thinking they're the next coming of the matrix, to give you an idea of what "level" they're at)

roosvelt
12-14-2005, 09:42 PM
Nope, I'm sure.
All those postures actually came from his Koryu teacher.
The "Shintaijiku" is actually a Yagyu Shingan Ryu exercise, as well as the Ten-Chi-Jin exercise.
:
:
:

Btw which Kanji were you referring to?
He might've used the word since its easier to describe it that way, but his internal background is basically all koryu.



16才で太極拳をはじめ、19才にて形意拳を学ぶ。

Could any one here translate the Japanese please?

The kanji is "Zang Zhuang", standing like a tree, stake excercise that Mike always mentioned in his posts.

Upyu
12-14-2005, 10:08 PM
16才で太極拳をはじめ、19才にて形意拳を学ぶ。

Could any one here translate the Japanese please?

The kanji is "Zang Zhuang", standing like a tree, stake excercise that Mike always mentioned in his posts.

Dude, I know that's what it says in the profile. But that's not where he got his body skill. Lol, remember I drink with the guy on the weekends :D
The koryu guys he trained with shunned the limelite. You won't find anything on the official site about how he trained w/ Sagawa either. You'll notice that he doesn't say "who" he learned tai chi and hsing-i from. He has that on his site because he's affliated w/ the neijia-institute. It's lip service only ;)

And I know that Zhang Zhuang is stake holding, I just don't know what the characters are. You'd have to tell me what it is in japanese ;)

Rupert Atkinson
12-14-2005, 10:28 PM
16才で太極拳をはじめ、19才にて形意拳を学ぶ。
=
I / Somebody began Tijqun at 16 and studied Xngyqun at 19.

Upyu
12-14-2005, 10:29 PM
Think you misread one of the characters Roosevelt ^^
I was kinda surprised that Ark would explain his stuff w/in the context of 站樁(zhan zhuang) since he tries to separate what he does from it. (Though it does serve a similar purpose). Actually I was the one that translated his 形、功、法 methedology, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't mention it ;)
I don't think it's surprising that the japanese had their own version of zhan zhuang stuff tho. Its fundamental if you want to build the body's foundation up. :)

roosvelt
12-15-2005, 09:08 AM
Think you misread one of the characters Roosevelt ^^
I was kinda surprised that Ark would explain his stuff w/in the context of 站樁(zhan zhuang) since he tries to separate what he does from it. (Though it does serve a similar purpose). Actually I was the one that translated his 形、功、法 methedology, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't mention it ;)
I don't think it's surprising that the japanese had their own version of zhan zhuang stuff tho. Its fundamental if you want to build the body's foundation up. :)

It just sad to hear that a tai chi teacher/master who doesn't think tai chi is one of the ways to accquire Ki/Chi.

I'd be interested to get a copy of his 形、功、法 if that's possible.

I just started the zhan zhuang and found its hard to do without a teacher. It's hard to find one in my area. I've tried a few things from your pm. I found it gave me feedback fetter than standing. I just wonder if I can find the source of his method and train. Thanks for the clarification.

Upyu
12-15-2005, 09:42 AM
It just sad to hear that a tai chi teacher/master who doesn't think tai chi is one of the ways to accquire Ki/Chi.

I'd be interested to get a copy of his 形、功、法 if that's possible.

I just started the zhan zhuang and found its hard to do without a teacher. It's hard to find one in my area. I've tried a few things from your pm. I found it gave me feedback fetter than standing. I just wonder if I can find the source of his method and train. Thanks for the clarification.

Um, he doesn't say that either. In fact he thinks its an excellent vehicle to gain body skills, under the right instruction. He just prefers a different methedology, but he does teach hsing-yi in his curriculum. The Kei Kou Hou theory is a little abstract, but if you're in for it, http://homepage3.nifty.com/aunkai/eng/bujyutu/index.html
is where you'll find the english version. There's a japanese version also, on the normal page. Unfortunately, it might be hard to get for those not "in the know". I'm making a simplified version that tries to express the same concepts, but in a simpler, and more down to earth manner ^^;

roosvelt
12-16-2005, 11:33 AM
Um, he doesn't say that either. In fact he thinks its an excellent vehicle to gain body skills, under the right instruction. He just prefers a different methedology, but he does teach hsing-yi in his curriculum. The Kei Kou Hou theory is a little abstract, but if you're in for it, http://homepage3.nifty.com/aunkai/eng/bujyutu/index.html
is where you'll find the english version. There's a japanese version also, on the normal page. Unfortunately, it might be hard to get for those not "in the know". I'm making a simplified version that tries to express the same concepts, but in a simpler, and more down to earth manner ^^;

Unfortunately, I'm not impressed. Even I "get" it, it doesn't tell me "how" to get there. What' s in that page is nothing new nor haven't been said before by other MA in my naive eyes.

What I'm interested is the training method and bio-feedback. For example, assume in standing posture, I'm told to stand feet apart shoulder wise, feet parallel, shin parallel, flex knees, loose your hip and make it round at fork, straight back, no buffy chest, lower shoulder and arms, elbow points outwords, tuck chin, straight in line between the top of the head (Bai hui), perineum (hui yin), and bubbling well points (yung ch'uan). ask some to push you from shoulder, you should feel the force down to the ground.

That's something I can practice and get it right (or wrong at this moment).

May I make a humble suggestion?

You guys may want to go easy on the theory part. I doubt any ground breaking new things will come out. I think what most people need is a different method to train. Maybe even an old method with better feedback system. I think most people will benefit if you can sepnd more time on your training method and feedback system in DETAIL.

Thanks for the link.

Upyu
12-16-2005, 07:59 PM
Unfortunately, I'm not impressed. Even I "get" it, it doesn't tell me "how" to get there. What' s in that page is nothing new nor haven't been said before by other MA in my naive eyes.

That's something I can practice and get it right (or wrong at this moment).

You guys may want to go easy on the theory part. I doubt any ground breaking new things will come out. I think what most people need is a different method to train. Maybe even an old method with better feedback system. I think most people will benefit if you can sepnd more time on your training method and feedback system in DETAIL.

Thanks for the link.

Hey Roosevelt,

Thanks for your blunt opinoin, I really do appreciate it.
I was discussing this with Ark before, trying to cook up a better way to explain his approach. The major problem with trying to explain the exercises is (and this isn't a diss to you) for the most part, people will try to understand the exercises described within the context of how they've trained up until that point.
I myself trained under an extremely legit CMA guy (Sam Chin in NYC) and while his training was good, if I were to read written descriptions of Ark's training methedology, the person I was back then would simply try to "peg" what I knew into what was being described to me. So really it's a moot point. It has to be felt to be understood. If a picture conveys a thousand words, and video ten thousand, I'd say Touch conveys a million.

Despite this we are thinking of putting up stuff describing certain exercises. But the reality is, even if we do that, you're only going to get a very limited benefit.

For the website, I've written up a piece trying to describe how Aunkai's approach, and the resulting body differs from what the general public percieves as "martial arts". Also I try to offer up examples whereby with this "different" approach while you don't "intend" to become stronger neccessarily, you end up with a skill that allows you to punch much deeper, move in a way that people don't expect, and more or less try to give real world examples of how the body skill can be used...

For the meantime I posted the Ten-Chi-Jin and Shintaijiku exercises, and those in themselves, if you realize what they're training, are extremely effective. If you have any questions regarding what kind of feel you should be getting, feel free to PM me (this goes for anyone).
I will say those exercises, if you haven't done them before, will have you exhausted and shaking after 3-4 reps of Ten-Chi-Jin. For SHintaijiku, 2min done low like he does should have your back aching, legs on fire, figertips nearly numb, and your nerves doing a two step all around your body :D
If not, you're not doing it correctly

You are extremely correct about one thing though Roosevelt, precise, hands on instruction is needed in this stuff. Whether you take his approach, a CMA approach, JMA approach it doesnt matter. You can vague ideas via words, but ultimately it has to be taught hands on :)

JM2C

Upyu
12-16-2005, 08:14 PM
I'm told to stand feet apart shoulder wise, feet parallel, shin parallel, flex knees, loose your hip and make it round at fork, straight back, no buffy chest, lower shoulder and arms, elbow points outwords, tuck chin, straight in line between the top of the head (Bai hui), perineum (hui yin), and bubbling well points (yung ch'uan). ask some to push you from shoulder, you should feel the force down to the ground.


Quick pieces of advice, take it or lose it, I don't care ;)
"no buffy chest" also means don't concave it excessively. Something i see a lot in the CMA world. Here's one thing you can do to grab the correct feeling (as far as I know)
Pinch your shoulder blades together with your arms extended. Now keeping the elbows rather straight, drop your shoulders (which probably were raised when you pinched the shoulder blades together). Push out to the finger tips. WHen you do this, notice how your chest which was jutting out, has to go concave just a bit. I've found that's probably just the right amount that you need.

"bubbling well points"
Overrated. You can't feel them immediately (I thought I did in my previous training and I really didn't)
Practice coming to the heel and to the toe, and distributing tension throughout the body. If you practice at both extremes you'll eventually come back to the middle (around the bubbling well point).
And the "middle" isn't something you rest on. It's almost like you skid over it, you're in a state of balanced "imbalance". And when you're in this state its easier to take your opponents balance.

"Tuck Chin"
Don't force it. It needs to be a result of the structure, or else there's no real meaning to do it. I'd say concentrate on putting slight tension in the back of the neck area instead.

"Push to ground"
WHen someone pushes you, you shouldn't be "resisting" there push. Find a way to push the ground w/out "pushing it". If you already have this down then you're off to a good start

More than that, study your feedback and concentrate on the spinal area in general. Don't get overly fixated on the mingmen/perinium and stuff. It should fall together naturally. Experiment w/ tensing the back/spinal area and relaxing it. Remember they say relax, but its not really "relaxed". Don't be afraid to experiment with extreme tension, but don't get caught up in it either.

Just some thoughts from what I've come through in my own training ;)

Mike Sigman
12-17-2005, 11:27 AM
Quick pieces of advice, take it or lose it, I don't care ;) [/QUOTE} Hi Rob:

Let me throw in my 2 cents on top of what you've said, with the same aplomb: ;)

[QUOTE]"no buffy chest" also means don't concave it excessively. Well, the back is rounded in order to 'connect' the Ki across the back; this somewhat hollows the chest. Push out to the finger tips. WHen you do this, notice how your chest which was jutting out, has to go concave just a bit. I've found that's probably just the right amount that you need. This goes along with the rounding of the back and keeping the "connection" from the back out to the fingertips. "bubbling well points"
Overrated. You can't feel them immediately (I thought I did in my previous training and I really didn't)
Practice coming to the heel and to the toe, and distributing tension throughout the body. If you practice at both extremes you'll eventually come back to the middle (around the bubbling well point).
And the "middle" isn't something you rest on. It's almost like you skid over it, you're in a state of balanced "imbalance". And when you're in this state its easier to take your opponents balance.Well, the "connection" (this is the yin to the yang kokyu force, the "ground path", kokyu) works its way from the back (particularly at the mingmen) down the 'outside' of the legs, over the knees, heel, etc., to the "Bubbling Well" point and then to the big toe. If you have a good "connection" AND good jin, the "Bubbling Well" point becomes pretty obvious. The point is part of the kidney meridian, surprise, and the most power is developed from the "kidney" area... this turns out to be true for physical reasons, BTW. "Tuck Chin"
Don't force it. It needs to be a result of the structure, or else there's no real meaning to do it. I'd say concentrate on putting slight tension in the back of the neck area instead. You can pretend that there is a thin sheet of leather covering the back, tied into the backs of the shoulders, the sacrum region, and the occipital region at the base of the skull. You need to stretch the leather ever so slightly so that there is a 'connection'. Bringing the shoulders slightly forward (which coincidentally hollows the chest) will help the stretch. Lifting the head slightly upward and tucking the chin slightly will help the stretch. Dropping the butt downward (by relaxing the back and knees) will help the stretch. ;) "Push to ground"
WHen someone pushes you, you shouldn't be "resisting" there push. Find a way to push the ground w/out "pushing it". If you already have this down then you're off to a good start I agree.... this is the basic start.

Nice post, Rob. Merry Ho Ho.

Mike

Rupert Atkinson
12-17-2005, 06:52 PM
Nice descriptions.

Upyu
12-17-2005, 09:47 PM
The point is part of the kidney meridian, surprise, and the most power is developed from the "kidney" area... this turns out to be true for physical reasons,

Oooh... never really thought about it in those terms..but I *think I have the same kind of connection... just never payed attention to it yet.

Quick comment on the back rounding thing, when I used to practice I-liq-chuan, the same thing was stressed, rounding the back/mingmen, to stretch or "project" along the back outwards to the fingertips etc. Only when I did it then it was artificial, and definitely no good. Excessively rounding the back is probably as bad as having the "buffy" chest, so experiementing to find the middle ground is definitely key I think.

roosvelt
12-17-2005, 11:50 PM
Thanks, Mike and Rob. The description is useful.

The Yi Quan Stake Exercise is in mail. Hopefully it'll provide more information.

Mike Sigman
12-18-2005, 07:40 AM
Quick comment on the back rounding thing, when I used to practice I-liq-chuan, the same thing was stressed, rounding the back/mingmen, to stretch or "project" along the back outwards to the fingertips etc. Only when I did it then it was artificial, and definitely no good. Excessively rounding the back is probably as bad as having the "buffy" chest, so experiementing to find the middle ground is definitely key I think.Hi Rob:
Probably the best way to look at the fingertips (as an example; this must apply to the whole body at all times, in reality) is that the fingertips must be physically connected to the "center" (the control station) so that the "ground path" or "kokyu" or whatever you want to call it is always there in the fingertips. But at the same time the pulling-connection to the center must always be there as well. Yin and Yang. Tohei covers this with "extending ki" and "heavyside down", for all practical purposes. Yang ki and Yin ki... the 'A' and 'Un' boys. ;)

FWIW

Mike

eyrie
12-19-2005, 12:10 AM
Hi Rupert: What "energy focuses from your centre"? That's the heart of what I'm trying to ask. How does Ki *functionally* apply to the sword swing? How does it give or add power to the swing? If it's just a matter of how you grip the sword, which hand is the "power" hand, etc., one may as well be the ordinary lumberjack, plying his trade. ;)

Regards,

Mike

We never really discussed this, but I'm pretty sure the mechanics of chopping wood is the same, except the lumberjack has the advantage of using the axe head like a pendulum weight, and the primary difference between a sword and an axe is one is a slicing weapon, and the other a hacking tool. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is like using an escrima stick like a machette, as opposed to a club.

In wood chopping, the entire body needs to be engaged, as it is most efficient way to chop wood for an extended period of time without getting unduly tired or worn in the shoulders and arms.

Weight is transferred from front foot to back during the upswing and reversed on the downswing. The idea is to use a relaxed wave-like motion as you draw the force up from the ground to the tip of the axe thru the "center" - actually, I feel it more in my hips and lower back. Very little power is attributed to the hands, since the hands play an important role in controlling where and how the strike lands. I'm pretty sure it's the same with the sword, although I have never done tameshigiri, so I wouldn't know.

With a sword, it's more like a whip, and if you're doing it correctly, you should hear it "hum" and "whistle", thru the air, which never fails to impress the hell out of the kids. ;)

Personally, I prefer wood chopping as it gives my lungs a much better "workout" than suburi - either that or I need a much heavier bokuto. :p

* goes back to chopping wood * :)

Mike Sigman
12-19-2005, 06:46 AM
Hi Ignatius:

Well, let me start off by noting that "Ki" is related to strength and that the stronger you get the more "Ki" you have because if you develop muscles, etc., you can't help but develop some of the natural Ki of the body. So I'm not saying definitively that a lumberjack does not have any Ki in his swing. However, having Ki and deliberately cultivating and using it are two different things... that's another reason why kokyu/jin skills are considered "ki" and not normal strength.

But are the "mechanics" of chopping wood by a skilled wood-chopper and by a skilled wood-chopper using Ki the same mechanics? No. The body mechanics of someone using Ki are quite different from someone, no matter how skilled, not using Ki. And of course, by us using this illustration of a woodchopper, we can understand that there are some pretty skilled woodchoppers who certainly don't need Ki to ply their trade.... just because someone doesn't have Ki doesn't mean they are enfeebled. So someone might use this example to ask why we are placing so much importance on Ki skills, considering the example of two woodchoppers, one with Ki and one without.

First of all, everything else being equal, the woodchopper having good ki and ki-skills will be stronger. Secondly, Aikido is not woodchopping and involves a number of applications in which the Ki give as advantage in applying a technique, but most of all in *combinging with the force of the opponent* ....a piece of wood does not need to be "aiki' ed", but a person does, in this higher level of mechanics.

So the real question in the woodchopper analogy is how he swings the axe with ki and without ki... and they are different. It's just like the question of how a punch is done with and without Ki... the mechanics are quite a bit different (and of course there are variations in how to punch, even among people who use Ki). And sword-swinging is no different... technique of swinging shouldn't be confused with the idea of swinging using ki strength and swinging using 'technique'.

FWIW

Mike

DH
12-19-2005, 06:54 AM
Actually I would not equate effective cutting with a sword with Ki extensions.
I forge swords I have been cutting with them -and chopping cordwood for that matter- for decades. I cut trees with my katana, up to 3," on a regular basis, I also train spear and bojutsu with steel earth digging bars. Yet I do not believe in Ki nor have I used "ki extension" to cut anything. Proof being in the pudding -how does it relate to the many other men who cut competitively? Some of whom I know who do not believe in an ki theory either.

When thinking of swords you should also remember that there are distinct and differing methods for cutting with them. I don't think an adept from Yagyu ryu will be confused with an adept from Katori shinto ryu anytime soon. Like with the internal discussion going on here... it isn't about technique either. It is how you cut and why.
I know how I cut, I have taught others -to- cut. I have never, not even once said "Extend your ki."

Boxing and PKer's
It is my belief that internal work (albeit crude or low level) is the "why" behind the age old boxing question of why some men are devestating knock-out punchers and others not so much. But they all remain good boxers. I do not believe it has been truly addressed by boxers or trainers, nor can they accurately say why one can hit so hard when others cannot. I think the answer lies in the boxer's own internal compass. The moment of when he may connect and transfer power or when others use all muscle to do the same.
the same goes for Punching and kicking. It is easy to wind up and use muscle, and the feedbck is immediate. So most rely on that feedback instead of exploring the mechanics of a relaxed, dynamic kick or punch that is more deep and penetrating.
Does everything benefit from internal work? Yes. Is it one thing or one method for everything? No.

cheers
Dan

Mary Eastland
12-19-2005, 06:59 AM
[QUOTE=Mike Sigman]Hi Ignatius:

Well, let me start off by noting that "Ki" is related to strength and that the stronger you get the more "Ki" you have because if you develop muscles, etc., you can't help but develop some of the natural Ki of the body. So I'm not saying definitively that a lumberjack does not have any Ki in his swing. However, having Ki and deliberately cultivating and using it are two different things... that's another reason why kokyu/jin skills are considered "ki" and not normal strength.

This is weird. :confused: Some guys that come into the dojo are really strong and think they have one point yet they have no ki to project.

All this technical talk about ki loses me. Keeping your mind and body together by feeling and trusting you center just seems a lot easier.

Mary

Mike Sigman
12-19-2005, 07:08 AM
Actually I would not equate effective cutting with a sword with Ki extensions.
I forge swords I have been cutting with them -and chopping cordwood for that matter- for decades. I cut trees with my katana, up to 3," on a regular basis, I also train spear and bojutsu with steel earth digging bars. Yet I do not believe in Ki nor have I used "ki extension" to cut anything. Proof being in the pudding -how does it relate to the many other men who cut competitively? Some of whom I know who do not believe in an ki theory either. I'm not sure what the point is. If you get a bunch of weight-lifters together and have a contest and then ask them what they know about Ki and whether they think it will help their weight-lifting, they'll all reply in the negative. Yet they'll all point to how much weight they can lift, how much they lift daily, etc. No one has said that unless you have ki you can't do such-and-such, Dan.

It is my belief that internal work (albeit crude or low level) is the "why" behind the age old boxing question of why some men are devestating knock-out punchers and others not so much. But they all remain good boxers. I do not believe it has been truly addressed by boxers or trainers, nor can they accurately say why one can hit so hard when others cannot. I think the answer lies in the boxer's own internal compass. The moment of when he may connect and transfer power or when others use all muscle to do the same.
OK, so now we're back to a definable topic again. What do you think are the actual body mechanics.... the physics, if you will... of a good puncher using ki or his "internal compass", etc., as opposed to someone else who also hits well?

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
12-19-2005, 07:10 AM
All this technical talk about ki loses me. Keeping your mind and body together by feeling and trusting you center just seems a lot easier. Can you tell us how this works, Mary... or is it just a matter of faith and not something you ever need to explain to the like-minded?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
12-19-2005, 07:28 AM
OK, so now we're back to a definable topic again. What do you think are the actual body mechanics.... the physics, if you will... of a good puncher using ki or his "internal compass", etc., as opposed to someone else who also hits well?

Regards,

Mike


Yes we are Mike. I can not only describe it, I have actually (as opposed to just yakin on the internet) fixed it for men who have asked.:D

My point was that much can be done with muscle as a default, improvements can be made with good body work. Improvements that will have levels, or incremental results. But then there are leaps when the ability to connect really starts to come through.
They are each different. Do you know why?
What the difference is between the three and not just the two?
Wise guy :D

Cheers
Dan

DH
12-19-2005, 07:32 AM
While we are on the topic: static and zero-point punching is top shelf, but for me it is only a peice of the puzzle as well. Just as Ark is discovering now-using it in fighting has benefits and dilemas.
The dilema is training often enough so that it is instantly-and constantly on. Two very different topics. Thinking your way through physical dilemas in miliseconds when you are being head-hunted is good training that many avoid. For me it was painful and humbling and I went back to the drawing board so many times I wore a path.

Benefts are that relaxed fighting with certain methods tends to open up an opponent in surprising ways-leaving them open for hits they cannot see. We have theories of how to make it work and why, I have my own as to how I made it work-and improved it- and why.
Tough experiments that apparently Ark is working on as well.

I still remember the day I stopped chambering and went to my teacher and showed him what I was doing. "Finally" he said. "Now you can start. Everything will be much easier and open to you."
"Why didn't you just tell me I asked?
"I did" he said and winked.



cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-19-2005, 07:59 AM
OK, so now we're back to a definable topic again. What do you think are the actual body mechanics.... the physics, if you will... of a good puncher using ki or his "internal compass", etc., as opposed to someone else who also hits well?

Regards,

Mike


Yes we are Mike. I can not only describe it, I have actually (as opposed to just yakin on the internet) fixed it for men who have asked.:D Regardless of your "fixing it for men" (I may not want to go there, Dan!!) or whether you yak on the internet, how is this an answer to the question I asked about "definable body mechanics"?????????? My point was that much can be done with muscle as a default, improvements can be made with good body work. Improvements that will have levels, or incremental results. But then there are leaps when the ability to connect really starts to come through.
They are each different. Do you know why?
What the difference is between the three and not just the two? OK. I asked a pretty simple question. Apparently you don't have the answer. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
12-19-2005, 08:03 AM
Just as Ark is discovering now-using it in fighting has benefits and dilemas. Hmmmmm. I have seen the vid-clips Rob has posted but I don't get the idea that Akuzawa is just now discovering anything, Dan. Are there any video clips of you demonstrating internal power, by any chance? I've seen your descriptions of the things you can do, but I'd like to see some of them on video, if there are any available. Thanks.

Regards,

Mike

DH
12-19-2005, 08:12 AM
Mary and those tired of hearing these mechinical/technical meanderings.

Being centered is mechanical and using it is biomechanical. Ki tricks are definable and teachable: from postures that use the ground and a central balance point, to other more interestings things that involve how your knowledge can expand...and or contract. ;)
On one level I supposes I could agree that you can believe your way into it. But intent and blind belief are two very different things with vastly different results. And one of them...is mechanical and actually works.

Many teachers don't know how they work, and still others that do, don't teach it.
Find the ones who will.
You will be back here magically agreeing with what you read here.
I am just thrilled to death to be hearing anyone else talking about it
albeit in a limited format.
cheers
Dan

DH
12-19-2005, 08:37 AM
Hmmmmm. I have seen the vid-clips Rob has posted but I don't get the idea that Akuzawa is just now discovering anything, Dan. Are there any video clips of you demonstrating internal power, by any chance? I've seen your descriptions of the things you can do, but I'd like to see some of them on video, if there are any available. Thanks.

Regards,

Mike

Tak to Rob and Mat
Most of this is fairly new to Ark. We have been doing it longer. He is also "experimenting" with teaching it and using it in freestyle. Which is again fairly new. If he is half the innovator I think he is (from their descriptions) he will continue to develop.
Didn't you?
Or were you birthed, or perhaps pre-birthed.
For me it took decades.and I have a long way to go. I do think the Chinese stuff is a new window and a deeper one. That settles one question I had had. You and I had talked about it. I don't think I could be dragged into doing forms again anytime soon though.

We have filmed some things in the past and taken pictures for in-house use and review. Wouldn't mind sending something to ya in the near future (don't read that as a maybe- I will) I also would welcome the same and to compare notes. Hell I'll even include some failures, bloopers or experiments (with voice instruction) so you can see or tell some of the intent and trials. I am really not concerned about making impressions. I think of it as shop talk. "Ya got something better to try?-lets see it!" sort of thing.
Some things are endemic to a school. I could not show you that stuff. Not that you care-but others will. There are other jo things and interesting stuff I will edit together that are my own. If you are like me -you won't care about school technique anyway as much as what I am doing. You had mentioned there were videos of you.
I don't go public, so I would expect privacy.
I have finally found out more about you this weekend. I was right in that you were "having me on" ya pinhead! That you have been doing this for years. At least now I feel more relaxed in chatting. Man you can be a pain in the ass. Why didn't you just say it up front in the private emails, instead of always baiting? ;)
As I told ya I took the bait to further the discussion for the other guys who may be prompted to go down this same road. Something I think you are doing as well.
cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-19-2005, 09:06 AM
[b]Most of this is fairly new to Ark. We have been doing it longer. Well, I don't comment on how long someone has been doing something. If that were the case then there would be a LOT of Aikido sensei's that knew about Ki-related things... and there aren't. There would be a LOT of Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, etc., teachers who knew how to do these things... and there aren't. I go by results or least listen to the level of what they know when they say how to do something. And that's why I've been careful to post enough things that people who know can see where I'm coming from. Rob understood what I was saying almost right away. Somebody like Shaun Ravens didn't understand what I was saying it but couldn't come back with any specifics or counters of his own. That's how it works on the internet. The real test is when you meet someone and see what they can do. I've met people and found out that I didn't know anything.... but luckily I had never claimed to know anything. And that's why I'm always careful to never go beyond exactly what I know or can do reproducibly. Saying Akuzawa is "fairly new" while representing your own knowledge as "doing it longer" is not something I would ever do personally, Dan. I would simply leave it as a discussion of what is being done and how it's being done. The discussions ad hominem have little to do with the factual issues, as far as I see it. FWIW
He is also "experimenting" with teaching it and using it in freestyle. Which is again fairly new. If he is half the innovator I think he is (from their descriptions) he will continue to develop.
Didn't you?
Or were you birthed, or perhaps pre-birthed. I'm not sure why it's necessary to discuss my history as part of how things work, TBH. ;) We have filmed some things in the past and taken pictures for in-house use and review. Wouldn't mind sending something to ya in the near future (don't read that as a maybe- I will) I also would welcome the same and to compare notes. Hell I'll even include some failures, bloopers or experiments (with voice instruction) so you can see or tell some of the intent and trials. I am really not concerned about making impressions. I think of it as shop talk. "Ya got something better to try?-lets see it!" sort of thing.
Some things are endemic to a school. I could not show you that stuff. Not that you care-but others will. There are other jo things and interesting stuff I will edit together that are my own. If you are like me -you won't care about school technique anyway as much as what I am doing. You had mentioned there were videos of you.
I don't go public, so I would expect privacy. No sweat. I'll look forward to it and I'll try to make functional comments from my perspective about the technical aspects of what I can see.
I have finally found out more about you this weekend. I was right in that you were "having me on" ya pinhead! That you have been doing this for years. At least now I feel more relaxed in chatting. Man you can be a pain in the ass. Why didn't you just say it up front in the private emails, instead of always baiting? ;) I haven't been baiting or coy. You can get an idea from seeing someone do something or reading their descriptions. Peoples resume's and credentials don't mean squat, given how much is puffery, "rank", elitism, etc. So I've laid out very specific how-to's on this forum, if anyone wants to see what I'm saying. My history can be found in a number of places. My last current interview is in the European Internal Arts Journal (July 2005), if anyone wants to see my latest perspectives on martial arts. I.e., I'm not hiding myself from anyone.

Regards,

Mike

roosvelt
12-19-2005, 09:15 AM
For the meantime I posted the Ten-Chi-Jin and Shintaijiku exercises,



Could I have a link? Thanks.

Upyu
12-19-2005, 02:37 PM
Could I have a link? Thanks.

You didn't see it earlier??
Reposting anyways ^^;
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Ten+Chi+Jin__2005-12-11_MOV01612.MPG

http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Shin+Tai+Jiku+Divx+-edited+to+not+defy+gravity-__2005-12-11_ShinTaiJiku+-+Low.avi

Dan,
Actually none of this is "new" for Ark, he's only just started teaching it. (Well unless you're just being comparative, he only really matured to being able to use it free form about 8-9 years ago, and continued to innovate like you since then. Though like you said you've been at it longer than he has)
And as for free form, I'm pretty sure he's already there.
When this kind of internal "conditioning" gets into your core, it doesn't really jibe w/ people that just want to "spar". (I'm sure you know the feeling I'm talking about).
That being said he's still constantly innovating, but at this point I haven't seen those movements since we're still working within the "Framework" stage at building our core.

roosvelt
12-19-2005, 04:34 PM
You didn't see it earlier??
Reposting anyways ^^;
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Ten+Chi+Jin__2005-12-11_MOV01612.MPG



Thanks for posting again. I missed it the first time due to low bandwidth.

I know it's hard to tell from outside without knowing internally what Ark's doing. But I don't know how this excercise is better than others, 8 brocades for example.


http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=Shin+Tai+Jiku+Divx+-edited+to+not+defy+gravity-__2005-12-11_ShinTaiJiku+-+Low.avi


Bad link.

eyrie
12-19-2005, 05:12 PM
I tried the shintaijiku exercise last nite, and I have to tell you, the "feeling" is way stronger than simply "standing". Talk about being "plugged-in" and recharged! :D

Upyu
12-19-2005, 05:12 PM
Thanks for posting again. I missed it the first time due to low bandwidth.

I know it's hard to tell from outside without knowing internally what Ark's doing. But I don't know how this excercise is better than others, 8 brocades for example.



Bad link.

Try the link again, or scroll back in the thread, I think I originally posted it on page 8 or 9.

And like you said, it's what you can't see that makes all the difference.
If you do 8 brocades the way we perform ten-jin-chi, then it probably doesn't matter. At this point I could probably make a person do the 8 brocades in a fashion that would make most people keel over.

There's a fair bit of "relaxed tension", southern shaolin style or whatever you want to call it, that helps to accentuate the lines running throughout the body.

The overriding difference is probably the amount of tension that's put in, but it's not muscular tension. I'm finding that the more "tension" I put in, the more the surrounding musculature starts to "sink" and drop.

Take for example Mabu, Maho, Horse Riding stance.
Being extremely generic here, most of the CMA will hold it low, and tell you to "relax" the upper body.
Karate-ka (not all) generally just hold it stiff, and accentuate the tilt of the pelvis and twist gripping w/ the feet.

We don't do either of these methods.
First you stand straight, and lower yourself with your spine straight with a fair bit of tension running along the spine. This will cause the spine to fall to the heels, and you'll feel like your going to fall backwards. Before you reach that point of no return and fall backwards with your ass in the air, you pull pull pull your body with your arms by thrusting them forward, and then keeping them there(while keeping the back straight, drop the shoulders forward etc). This induces an interplay between front and back forces and allows you to study how they're generated/interact within your body. Moreover, over time this will allow you to find that "middle" point on your feet.
Of course this is only the beginning, and all that and more is incorporated into the Ten Chi Jin/Shintaijiku training.

If you did 8 broccades in this fashion, its possible you might find it a different animal. Or, maybe you're already doing it that way. ^^;
Fangsong, relaxation and what not are often misinterpreted I think.
Of course, that's cuz people alwayyys want to take the easy road, even if its the one that doesnt necessarily yield them anything :D
(Btw, that's not a slam at you, just a general observation of how most people practice these kind of things)

Josh Lerner
12-19-2005, 11:18 PM
Hi Rob,

One question/observation about the kicking video that I was wondering if you could address. The biggest (as in most obvious) biomechanical differences in the roundhouse kick between the "ineffective" versions and the one that drives you back seems to be that in the weaker kicks he just starts from static and kind of throws his leg up at the pad.

In the powerful one, Akuzawa starts by leaning waaaay forward, getting his center of gravity past his feet, and then skips onto his left foot - he moves his left foot a good three feet, catching his weight, and then lets all that momentum transfer into the kicking leg. That in itself seems to explain the majority of the power, without having to rely on the "cross" explanation he is giving. In other words, he seems to be demonstrating the same mechanics that someone trying to kick a 50 yard field goal would use.

Can he generate the same kind of power without the running/leaning start? That would have made for a more interesting demo, in that it would have provided a better demonstration of the connection he was talking about.

The same does not apply to the front kick, obviously.

Thanks,

Josh

Upyu
12-20-2005, 03:10 AM
Hi Rob,

leg. That in itself seems to explain the majority of the power, without having to rely on the "cross" explanation he is giving. In other words, he seems to be demonstrating the same mechanics that someone trying to kick a 50 yard field goal would use.

Can he generate the same kind of power without the running/leaning start? That would have made for a more interesting demo, in that it would have provided a better demonstration of the connection he was talking about.
Josh

Nice observation ;)
Tho the cross explanation does apply. Try it yourself ;)
(As in can you elicit the same kind of effect by simply transfering momentum, although that is part of the puzzle in this case)

The other thing you might notice is that he keeps his feet flat on the ground most of the time when he kicks.

He can generate a similar amount of power, but to a lesser degree without the "start". Its similar mechanics to the front kick, and its not pleasant (ie its still penetrating, but its not as obvious looking on from the outside).

Josh Lerner
12-20-2005, 08:01 AM
Tho the cross explanation does apply. Try it yourself ;)
(As in can you elicit the same kind of effect by simply transfering momentum, although that is part of the puzzle in this case)

I couldn't quite make out what he was saying about it, and I was wondering exactly what he was talking about. He seems to first establish the spinal line by dropping the sacrum, then he establishes the axis 90 degrees to it across the shoulders when he holds his arm out to the side like in those Chinese wushu kicking excercises. For that kick, is that the cross he talks about?

If so, what is the purpose of the cross? It seems central to his exlanation. My guess, probably wrong since I haven't thrown a kick in a decade, is that the establishment of a line of "tension" 90 degrees to the spine stabilizes it in an additional plane so that momentum/power isn't lost. That is, he appears to be saying that if you don't establish the second line 90 degrees to the first, you lose some of your ability to transfer power from the ground.

The other thing you might notice is that he keeps his feet flat on the ground most of the time when he kicks.

Is the reason for that related to why you practice the standing excercises with your weight back on your heels?

He can generate a similar amount of power, but to a lesser degree without the "start". Its similar mechanics to the front kick, and its not pleasant (ie its still penetrating, but its not as obvious looking on from the outside).

So with the front kick, where is the cross? He seems to change it so that the two planes are left/right and front/back for that one. Axis across the hips and perpendicular through it via the kicking leg? Or am I misunderstanding what he was trying to show?

Thanks of the responses,

Josh

Josh Lerner
12-20-2005, 08:47 AM
Correction - I just remembered that for the front kick, he put his hands in a "gassho" position. Was that to establish the 90 degree line across the two scapula?

Thanks,

Josh

roosvelt
12-20-2005, 12:13 PM
If you did 8 broccades in this fashion, its possible you might find it a different animal. Or, maybe you're already doing it that way. ^^;
Fangsong, relaxation and what not are often misinterpreted I think.
Of course, that's cuz people alwayyys want to take the easy road, even if its the one that doesnt necessarily yield them anything :D
(Btw, that's not a slam at you, just a general observation of how most people practice these kind of things)

Yes, it's me. I'm looking for the easy way out. Not physically, but mentally. The correct "fangsong" is killing me.

Thanks for the pointers. I tried a few ten-chi-jin routine. My front upper leg muscles get a good work out. Do I have weak leg muscle or I didn't do it correctly?

Josh Reyer
12-20-2005, 12:24 PM
Thanks for the pointers. I tried a few ten-chi-jin routine. My front upper leg muscles get a good work out. Do I have weak leg muscle or I didn't do it correctly?

I had the pleasure of a brief training session with Rob during a jaunt out to Tokyo this weekend. If my experience under supervision was any indication, you probably did it correctly. :D

Upyu
12-20-2005, 07:56 PM
Correction - I just remembered that for the front kick, he put his hands in a "gassho" position. Was that to establish the 90 degree line across the two scapula?

Thanks,

Josh

Woo woo...
lots to answer.
Ok the Gassho positioni just indicates that you "bring in" everything to the "jin" or "middle" position and hold it there as you kick.
This refers to the eight directional power etc.

You're correct about the cross though. It's not so much that the tension there stabilizes the spine (althought it does do that during training and is important), but it brings awareness to that part. So you know when its off kilter. If you don't establish that cross, then you lose some alignement in the spine. On that part I think you're on the same page.


Is the reason for that related to why you practice the standing excercises with your weight back on your heels?


Kind of, the reason you put weight on the heels is to teach you how to let the spinal column drop straight down. Plus people have a tendency to lean forward too much, so you play around with the opposite and add an internal "tension" to counter it. Eventually you learn how to balance on the middle portion of the foot. The feeling will drop down to the shins, and then move further forward from the heels.


So with the front kick, where is the cross? He seems to change it so that the two planes are left/right and front/back for that one. Axis across the hips and perpendicular through it via the kicking leg? Or am I misunderstanding what he was trying to show?


You're thinking too much ;) Lol, not a bad thing tho, I think there's a lot that aren't thinking enough :D
Anyways, he's still just keeping the cross in the upper portion of his chest. (Some call it the upper dantien/tanden). We actually practice the front kick with the arms extended wushu style, with a huge difference being that its not held their for balance, but so you can feel the power being output to the finger tips. Its not easy, your hands and arms generally fall asleep, and your body gets a total body workout from being forced to align itself (eh Josh (Reyer) ? ;) )

One more annecdote,
The kicking power is actually derived from the grounded leg. Not the actual kicking leg. Which is why the heel should ideally be placed on the ground when kicking.

Upyu
12-20-2005, 07:59 PM
Yes, it's me. I'm looking for the easy way out. Not physically, but mentally. The correct "fangsong" is killing me.

Thanks for the pointers. I tried a few ten-chi-jin routine. My front upper leg muscles get a good work out. Do I have weak leg muscle or I didn't do it correctly?

Ten Chi Jin is a total body killer when you first start. And even after six months it doesnt get any easier. I'm only starting to unlock the deeper aspects. And I can tell you it starts to get easier, and then it doubles in difficulty in both the physical and mental aspects.
It's why its so good ;)
It'd be a useless exercise if it continuously got easier :D

Upyu
12-20-2005, 08:03 PM
I had the pleasure of a brief training session with Rob during a jaunt out to Tokyo this weekend. If my experience under supervision was any indication, you probably did it correctly. :D

It was great to meet you Josh :)
Hahaha, ten of those ten-chi-jin in a row is taxing even for me.
So if you try it at home don't overdue it :D

Leg and lower backstrength are also pretty crucial to building a good foundation. But you have to train it in the correct way, otherwise it just becomes "strength".

Shiko's a good way to experiment with it tho.

Hope you can come up sometime soon and train again ;)

Josh Lerner
12-20-2005, 09:23 PM
Woo woo...
lots to answer..

Yes, and you did . . . thanks for taking the time.

Josh

eyrie
12-20-2005, 09:36 PM
...
Anyways, he's still just keeping the cross in the upper portion of his chest. (Some call it the upper dantien/tanden). ...

I think that's the middle dantien.....the upper dantien is.... um.... higher...? ;)

Upyu
12-20-2005, 10:38 PM
I think that's the middle dantien.....the upper dantien is.... um.... higher...? ;)

Lol, it is?
Ok, then the middle dantien :D
I'm horrible at definitions, so feel free to correct me if I'm using words incorrectly. :uch:

eyrie
12-20-2005, 11:28 PM
The dantien is in between the chongmai (vital channel) and daimai (belt channel.) The chongmai begins at the baihui point (on the perineum) and ends at the weiyin point (under the nose.) The daimai forms a circle around your waist. Its behind your navel. The ancients believed that this was the origin of reproduction, the source of male sperm and the womb of the female. In the middle of the abdomen is the qihai (sea of qi) also known as the xia dantian (lower dantien.) In between your nipples is the tanzhong point in a region known as the zhong dantien (center dantien.) In the middle of your forehead is the tianxin point (heaven heart) and that region is known as the shang dantien (upper dantien.) If you have a lot of qi in your upper dantien, your eyes will shine brightly. The center and lower dantien is where you adjust your breathing and exercise your qi to develop stronger energy.

Source:http://www.shaolin-overseas.org/articles-may2003.html


For the curious, the middle dantien (CV17) is located between the nipples, approx 2" above the xiphoid process. It's the intersection point of the CV, spleen and kidney channels from the feet and the small intestine and triple warmer channels of the hand.

:)

DH
12-21-2005, 07:37 AM
Kind of, the reason you put weight on the heels is to teach you how to let the spinal column drop straight down. Plus people have a tendency to lean forward too much, so you play around with the opposite and add an internal "tension" to counter it. Eventually you learn how to balance on the middle portion of the foot. The feeling will drop down to the shins, and then move further forward from the heels.

Thats interesting Rob. I have always done what I "think"you call tension in a different way. In an upper postion We hold it in the spine and its as if you want too let it go but won't. Then release it. I teach it as a sneeze. I know I know.... sounds funny, but when you are doing the Jo trick once his power is turned inward to him this release sends a signal or pulse wave (I believe it is actually an internal mirror) into their center. This is used for specific art related techniques in a number of ways aided with elbow power across the scapulas..
Another way is with the legs and pelvic region turning inward from the oustide (on both sides) It makes a hell of a "draw" for jujutsu moves and a very stable platform to throw or do aiki style wrist work with. Shiko has some very valuable lessons in it as well. DId Ark mention if he saw//picked up any of this with Sagawa?
I was recently shown this pelvic and dividing work was in fact- a silk reelling exercise-though in fact I learned it in a Japanese art. Its is a hell of a way to do deep low-leg thigh kicks that aren't telegraphed much at all but are penetrating and knee to stomach as well. The power is from the grournd
But in all these things we are not on our heels but on the center of the foot-like you are grabbing ground with your toes and sending it down through the center of your foot like a gorilla.
For those reading- this is different from a chambered, center-driven (heel lifted) mui tai kick, which can also be devastating when done well.
I can't open the Ark files, anyway to send em to me?
cheers
Dan