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bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 10:17 AM
Unfortunately, many Aikidokas misuse the concepts of 'harmony', 'love', 'non-violence' or 'Aikido teaches you to avoid confrontation'. They give a Hippie-peace-and-love meaning to these concepts and give the following absolutely stupid answers when asked how would they handle a confrontation:

1. Avoid the confrontation by talking.
Thinking that 'talking' will work all the time is not realistic.
You have to be very stupid or naive to believe that you can ALWAYS avoid a confrontation by talking. I think this is the first thing you should try, but that doesn't mean it is going to work ALL THE TIME.
Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't work.
If everything could be settled down by talking, the world would be better place, with no wars, fights, and so. But it's not.
The truth is you can not always settle down things by talking.

2. JUST RUN (I love these one)
These is an excellent solution. But I suggest if you are going to RUN from every confrontation, Why training Aikido? it would be better to stop training Aikido and begin training to be a sprinter and marathoner, so you develop the speed and endurance not to be caught and have a successful RUN.
I see two major problems with these solution. If you run, the attacker can run after you. So is not necessarily a 100% effective solution.
The other problem, you can try running when you're alone, but what would happen if you're with you're wife, mother, son, daughter, friend, or anyone else you care about. Are you gonna RUN and leave him/her alone? Or everyone you know can run as fast as you?

3. Avoid a confrontation by not going into dangerous places.
So, for the people who use this argument, you can't always avoid 'dangerous places'. What do they mean by dangerous places? usually a 'bad neighborhood', 'bars', 'disco', or so.
Unfortunately, confrontations can happen anywhere, 'bad and good neighborhoods', in bad and good pubs, in bad and good schools. What do they suggest, stay safely at home? FOREVER?
this is nonsense.

Aikidoist have to accept that you can't always avoid a confrontation.
You can't just RUN all the time, you can't just HIDE all the time, you can't just TALK all the time.
So Aikido must be train as an effective martial art of self-defense, to be used when a confrontation is unavoidable.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

happysod
12-06-2005, 10:45 AM
This is with reference to what?

Puzzled from Planet lost

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 10:55 AM
Ian
is with reference to nothing, just an opinion to be debated

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

James Davis
12-06-2005, 11:12 AM
Once it's obvious that there's going to be trouble, my sensei says to remain non-verbal (especially if there are witnesses). You won't waste brain power listening to them or trying to think of something to say, and you won't be responsible for provoking them. ;)

Apologize, whether you're wrong or not. If they still want to fight after that, then eat their lunch. evileyes

Brian Vickery
12-06-2005, 12:29 PM
Once it's obvious that there's going to be trouble, my sensei says to remain non-verbal (especially if there are witnesses).

Hi James,

Sorry, but I disagree with you in this situation.

If it's truly obvious that the situation is going to turn into a physical confrontation, and there are witnesses there, I would LOUDLY say "I don't want to fight you!" and I would say this more than once!

Then if I end up injuring this guy, at least I'd have witnesses saying that I clearly didn't want to fight! If this ends up in court, at least I would have something to support my case for self-defense rather than a just martial artist showing off, ending up with a felony on my record!

...just my opinion!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

Brian Vickery
12-06-2005, 12:38 PM
Apologize, whether you're wrong or not.

Hey James,

Again, I must disagree with you!

I would not apologize in a confrontation with a guy woofing me! That's a sign of weakness, which is something you do not want to do!

You don't want to escalate the confrontation either, but rather meet him equally, with the same verbiage, same tone, same vocal volume, same eye contact!

You have to let the guy know that you're not afraid of him, while at the same time not forcing him to go physical on you to save face!

...again ,just my opinion!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

Nick Simpson
12-06-2005, 01:13 PM
I agree with you to a point bratzo. But I dont think that anyone has ever said that you can always talk your way out, run away or avoid dangerous areas. They are options, good ones and sometimes they do work. I have seen more people talk their way out of a situation than win it by fighting with the aggressor.

I would agree that people should train to make their aikido as martially effective (whatever that means, Kevin Leavitt has some really interesting stuff to say on this, among many others) as well as applicable for self-defence (whatever that means). But people train for different reasons, for some people this way of training is not for them. YMMV.

Robert Rumpf
12-06-2005, 01:23 PM
So what you're saying is that the current trend of turning Aikido dojos into Toastmasters clubs, running clubs, and temperance societies isn't a good idea? :)

In all seriousness, I have yet to see an Aikido class teach any of those things (speaking, running, or staying away from stupid drunk people), but that doesn't dispute their effectiveness in terms of their use in the real world.

I look both ways before crossing the street, and so I don't learn to take ukemi from being hit by a car. Likewise I avoid dangerous people whenever possible, or I call in people with the tools to handle them (cops) instead of learning how to single-handedly and unarmed handle a gang of hardened criminals who have knives or guns. I avoid people like that. Hence, I avoid randori with live weapons or things that would actually prepare me to the most limited extent. If I absolutely had to deal with that type of situation, I'd carry a gun and bring some friends (like cops do).

I've never been in a fight in my life, and I've had more injuries on the mat or on the soccer field that I have from any actual physical confrontation, but I get into conflicts every day in which I don't use Aikido, but in which I try to apply Aikido principles. I don't run from those conflicts all the time, I don't always negotiate, I sometimes attack, and I often blend, but its all verbal or through my actions.

The few times I have actually directly avoided being in fights because of not following the above smart ideas that you dislike (Mardis Gras) occurred because I used the confidence that Aikido gave me to bluff my way out of a situation or two. It was also because I wasn't that interesting (another defense tactic).

Still, I'm surprised that someone would post something like this on any site for something that isn't a explicitly a pacifist organization, let alone that of a martial art.

At the very least, everyone practicing Aikido who is interested in Aikido for conflict resolution (even the hippies want that) has made the admission to themselves that conflict can choose to happen physically, and that Aikido is a way of coping with that by providing a greater choice in terms of potential outcome. If they didn't acknowledge that Aikido training can reflect life, and in Aikido we sometimes attack or do other things besides talk or avoid, than all the work in Aikido class would be a waste of their time from the perspective of conflict resolution.

It always stuns me when I see this type of post (and it is not the first) on Aikiweb - it makes me realize how much some people get their perspective on an art from words on a web page instead of actions that the performers actually do.

But then again, there could be a bunch of pacifist dojos out there who sit around teach "debate with muggers", or practice "running to resolve conflicts", or whatever...

I haven't seen them. Have you?

Rob

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 01:30 PM
I agree with you to a point bratzo. But I dont think that anyone has ever said that you can always talk your way out, run away or avoid dangerous areas.

Answer: Unfortunately, there are a lot of aikidokas that have this stupid answers as final soltions (talk, run, hide). You have never really heard or read those answer as the great objective of Aikido? Weird. Look around, there are a lot.

[QUOTE=Nick Simpson]They are options, good ones and sometimes they do work. I have seen more people talk their way out of a situation than win it by fighting with the aggressor.

Answer: Of course they are options, I never said they aren't. I just said they are NOT ALWAYS appropiate or possible.

[QUOTE=Nick Simpson]But people train for different reasons, for some people this way of training is not for them. YMMV.

Answer: Of course people train for diffrent reasons, they have the right to do so. But that's not excuse to say Aikido's way of handling a confrontation is TALK, RUN, or HIDE.
It's not right, nor honest.
What I mean is, maybe somebody trains Aikido as an exercise, to lose weight. Which is OK. But that doesn't mean that he/she can say O'sensei created Aikido to loose weight!!! Would be ridiculous.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

bkedelen
12-06-2005, 03:08 PM
To the play the devil's advocate, pretty much everyone I know has never had to deal with fighting because they used exactly and only the three methods you have listed. I think those three methods will pretty much remove the average citizen of a first world country from 95% of the violence they will face during their lives. The question remains then, "Why train in Aikido at all". I am sure we must all come to that answer on our own. This paraphrase of Saotome Sensei is an excellent example response:
"The purpose of Aikido is to better people's lives, to make their spirit blossom and become strong, and by making better people to make a better world."
This quote does not mention fighting, even though we know Saotome takes Aikido's martial value seriously. Nevertheless, he like all experienced martial artists knows that it is not possible to protect yourself from a dedicated enemy. A bullet to the head drops an Aikidoka just like anyone else. Since that is the case, you better sure as hell plan to talk, run, avoid, avoid some more, then avoid again just to be sure. As a hand-to-hand trained fighter, finding yourself involved in the category of conflict where your best or only option is to actively participate in combat is almost impossible. Such conflict must include most/all of these conditions:
you are trapped
there are very few opponents
you KNOW your opponents are poorly trained
you KNOW your opponents are unarmed
the mandatory rescue of a non-combatant
you are trying to establish a heaven on earth somewhere in Mongolia
you are trying to found a new township in an icy northern wilderness
(excuse my attempt at humor)
If these conditions are not met, you are going to get smoked. Just getting into a position where some of these conditions are met means you have been so tragically negligent in managing your lifestyle and daily activities that you likely deserve to lose.

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 03:37 PM
Quote: To the play the devil's advocate, pretty much everyone I know has never had to deal with fighting because they used exactly and only the three methods you have listed. I think those three methods will pretty much remove the average citizen of a first world country from 95% of the violence they will face during their lives. The question remains then, "Why train in Aikido at all".

Answer: train for those 5% of probability. (I don't know where you get those statistics but lets assume they're true)

Quote; I am sure we must all come to that answer on our own. This paraphrase of Saotome Sensei is an excellent example response:
"The purpose of Aikido is to better people's lives, to make their spirit blossom and become strong, and by making better people to make a better world."

Answer: yes, it's a nice answer. I love the world too first, and the people, and the tress, an the animal, and my mother in law; but not everybody practices Aikido, so not everybody has such a lovely hart, and wants to be 'a good person'. There's bad people too. At least in planet earth, but maybe not in your world.

Quote: A bullet to the head drops an Aikidoka just like anyone else. Since that is the case, you better sure as hell plan to talk, run, avoid, avoid some more, then avoid again just to be sure.

answer: Maybe I wasn't clear, but I NEVER state that talk, run, hide are not valid options, they are. They just are not appropiate or possible ALL the time. Please read carefully, or think before answering.


Quote: As a hand-to-hand trained fighter, finding yourself involved in the category of conflict where your best or only option is to actively participate in combat is almost impossible. Such conflict must include most/all of these conditions:
you are trapped
there are very few opponents
you KNOW your opponents are poorly trained
you KNOW your opponents are unarmed
the mandatory rescue of a non-combatant
you are trying to establish a heaven on earth somewhere in Mongolia
you are trying to found a new township in an icy northern wilderness
(excuse my attempt at humor)
If these conditions are not met, you are going to get smoked. Just getting into a position where some of these conditions are met means you have been so tragically negligent in managing your lifestyle and daily activities that you likely deserve to lose.

Answer: ok this part is really stupid. Are you really thinking about you're answer or you are just repeating what other peolple say without thinking?
Reasons for defending yourself may be many, under different circumstances, and with differents degrees of danger, not all will be life threatening, but that doesn't mean one have to be kind of in the underworld to face conflict.
And thinking that just because for an avoidable reason a person ends up facing a physical aggression means he/she "deserve to lose", shows how stupid is your opinion.

Yes I agree with you is not usual that you face an attack, (I, myself, haven't have a fight since I was 11 now I'm 35), but that doesn't mean that the probability doesn't exist.



Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

Mary Eastland
12-06-2005, 03:57 PM
Aikido has helped me welcome conflict....some of the concepts of aikido are so contrary to what most "fighters" think would work that they are hard to believe.
Facing our own demons and fears helps us deal with how we feel in the world and the way we react to other people.
Training is so much more than fighting....and why not?

Mary

James Kelly
12-06-2005, 03:58 PM
1. Avoid the confrontation by talking.
Thinking that 'talking' will work all the time is not realistic.
You have to be very stupid or naive to believe that you can ALWAYS avoid a confrontation by talking. I think this is the first thing you should try, but that doesn't mean it is going to work ALL THE TIME.
Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't work.
If everything could be settled down by talking, the world would be better place, with no wars, fights, and so. But it's not.
The truth is you can not always settle down things by talking.

Ah, but grasshopper, perhaps your talking skills are not as advanced as your fighting skills as evidenced by how easily you rise to the bait. In that case, by all means, fight your way out. But as Benjamin said, I cannot think of a case where talking (or farting or at least belching) can't get you out of a tough situation unless you're totally overmatched (they have a superior weapon or superior numbers) in which case, fighting is stupid.
Reasons for defending yourself may be many, under different circumstances, and with differents degrees of danger, not all will be life threatening, but that doesn't mean one have to be kind of in the underworld to face conflict.

Ok -- since this entire thread seems to be hypothetical, please help me out here and list a few. I'm curious what situations you feel warrant coming to blows that are not life threatening to you or someone close by.

And by the way, I've never heard in my few years of aikido, any discussion of ‘just run'. I've heard ‘avoid the fight' many times. They are not the same and that's the point. Aikido is a third option. Not kicking ass, not running away, finding something else.

bkedelen
12-06-2005, 04:07 PM
I have been taught that the philosohpy of Aikido's brand of conflict resolution is to preserve the well-being of both sides. Since I obviously misunderstand, please edify me. Doesnt failing to avoid an avoidable physical confrontation make the resulting damage to you OR your enemy YOUR fault? You had the power to protect everyone, but through negligence your put everyone in danger. Why then do you not deserve to lose? Because you are always the hero in your own story? I am not convinced that I always deserve to win just because I think I am a good person. The other guy thinks he is a good person too.

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 04:22 PM
Quote: I cannot think of a case where talking (or farting or at least belching) can't get you out of a tough situation unless you're totally overmatched (they have a superior weapon or superior numbers) in which case, fighting is stupid.

Answer: Yeah, that's the problem when people can't think.
I didn't say figthing is wise or stupid, I refer to necessary or unnecessary. Fighting doesn't ensure you 'victory', you can lose, but at least Aikido gives you tools to try to defend yourself.
By the way, I never talked or referent all qualified MY fighting skils at all in this or other thread.


Quote: Ok -- since this entire thread seems to be hypothetical, please help me out here and list a few. I'm curious what situations you feel warrant coming to blows that are not life threatening to you or someone close by.

Answer: Ok, I don't like to give examples 'what if this' 'what if that', but since you asked, lets try.
1. The kid that abuses from the weaker kid in school. Life treatening, no, just kids stuff. But it would be nice if the weaker kid could defend himself to avoid abuse.
Now you may say, talk to the bullie guy, maybe he won't stop, he wants to show off, and be cool.
Run, He could run after you.
Hide, sorry kid, gatta go to school, eventually.
call his parent, what makes you think that's gonna stop him?

I really think, that stating that you always have to fight to solve a proble is as stupid as saying you never have to.


Quote: And by the way, I've never heard in my few years of aikido, any discussion of ‘just run'. I've heard ‘avoid the fight' many times. They are not the same and that's the point. Aikido is a third option. Not kicking ass, not running away, finding something else.

Answer: Yeah, I've heard and read that many times. Maybe you'll read or listen that to someday.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Bushin Dojo
Doral FL

Adman
12-06-2005, 04:57 PM
Unfortunately, many Aikidokas misuse the concepts of 'harmony', 'love', 'non-violence' or 'Aikido teaches you to avoid confrontation'. They give a Hippie-peace-and-love meaning to these concepts and give the following absolutely stupid answers when asked how would they handle a confrontation:

The answers you give as stupid, to avoid confrontation (or physical harm), aren't. They're quite reasonable. I can't think of a single person I know who would think otherwise.
You can't just RUN all the time, you can't just HIDE all the time, you can't just TALK all the time.
So you're saying that "many aikidoka" think conversely to your statement above? I've never met this fabled aikidoka you're referring to. Have you actually met these people who believe this way or are these just assumptions?

thanks,
Adam

bkedelen
12-06-2005, 05:16 PM
Actually, if you ever ready anything published by anyone anywhere on how to deal with a bully, pretty much the first thing everyone says is to totally avoid getting physical with the bully. This is the worst tactic you can use with a bully because that means you are playing their game on their terms. In addition it blurs the lines of who the aggressor is, and brings you down to the bully's level. That aside, I suppose I did have a karate teacher back in the day who once wispered to me:
"When you fight in school, you get sent to the principal whether you started it or not. That is why you should never fight in school. That is also why if you do fight in school, you might as well win."
In the years since I heard this, I have come to think that the first part is much more important than the second.

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 05:50 PM
[QUOTE=Adam Bauder]The answers you give as stupid, to avoid confrontation (or physical harm), aren't. They're quite reasonable. I can't think of a single person I know who would think otherwise.

Maybe I wasn't clear, the stupidity is thinking that these answer work all the time. Sometimes they do some times they don't. Is stupid to think taht you can ALWAYS avois phycal confrontation, as stupid as thinking physical confrontation is the first an only solutio.
Wasn't I clear? maybe not considering English isn't my native language. I'll think that's were the confusion comes from.

So you're saying that "many aikidoka" think conversely to your statement above? I've never met this fabled aikidoka you're referring to. Have you actually met these people who believe this way or are these just assumptions?

Yes, unfortunately i've heard and read of many aikidoka who think that way. I've seen those answers in different threads in this forum, haven't you? MAybe we're reading differebt threads.

Bratzo Barrena

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 06:02 PM
[QUOTE=Benjamin Edelen]Actually, if you ever ready anything published by anyone anywhere on how to deal with a bully, pretty much the first thing everyone says is to totally avoid getting physical with the bully.

Answer: So RUN or Hide? can you be sure that you'll ALWAYS be able to avoid him?
As you said, the first thing is to avoid getting physical, when that doesn't work, what? pray? oh no, of course, RUN or HIDE.

[QUOTE=Benjamin Edelen]This is the worst tactic you can use with a bully because that means you are playing their game on their terms.

answer: The worst tactic is assuming you will ALWAYS be able to avoid a physical confrontation and not preparing yourself just in case the situation presents.

[QUOTE=Benjamin Edelen] In addition it blurs the lines of who the aggressor is, and brings you down to the bully's level.

Answer: The line is very clear. He who want to attack, and he who couldn't avoid the confrontation and had to defend himself. Pretty clear. Just in case, I'm not talking on one being aggresive, just calmy defend yourself if needed.


Bratzo Barrena

James Kelly
12-06-2005, 06:04 PM
Answer: Ok, I don't like to give examples 'what if this' 'what if that', but since you asked, lets try.

This entire thread is a 'what if this' 'what if that'...
1. The kid that abuses from the weaker kid in school. Life treatening, no, just kids stuff. But it would be nice if the weaker kid could defend himself to avoid abuse.
Now you may say, talk to the bullie guy, maybe he won't stop, he wants to show off, and be cool.
Run, He could run after you.
Hide, sorry kid, gatta go to school, eventually.
call his parent, what makes you think that's gonna stop him?
This was my mistake. I should have been a more specific. I meant can you come up with a non-life threatening scenario where you, Bratzo Barrena, would come to blows? Four o'clock in alley behind school not withstanding.

James Kelly
12-06-2005, 06:17 PM
And while we're on the subject of bullies. I got the $#!t beat out of me when I was a kid. Over and over again. When did it stop? Did it stop when I got bigger and stronger than them (which I did?)? No, because I was never aggressive enough to do anything with my size and strength. It stopped when I realized that I had a sense of humor and could make them laugh at the lunch table. That's when I gained just the little respect it takes to keep a bully from pounding you. Had I studied aikido at the time and been able to calmly defend myself (which is not the likeliest scenario as it takes longer to get to that level in aikido than I had been alive) would I have been better off? Maybe, but then their wrath would have turned to another victim, and worse, I might have joined them just to be accepted. While they were laughing at my jokes they weren't beating anyone up.

Again, the whole point of aikido as far as I can see it is to realize that the idea that the only two options are to fight or run (win or lose) is wrong.

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 06:18 PM
This entire thread is a 'what if this' 'what if that'...

Answer: Soryy is not about 'what ifs' is about specific answer some people have for dealing against a conflict, in a general way not in any specific situation.

[QUOTE=James Kelly]This was my mistake. I should have been a more specific. I meant can you come up with a non-life threatening scenario where you, Bratzo Barrena, would come to blows? Four o'clock in alley behind school not withstanding.

Answer: Yes, your mistake, but is ok...hahaha.
No I can't think of a specific situation in MY case, I'm too peaceful, sorry
Bratzo Barrena

James Kelly
12-06-2005, 06:20 PM
No I can't think of a specific situation in MY case, I'm too peaceful, sorry
Bratzo Barrena
So then i ask you, what's the point of your post?

bratzo_barrena
12-06-2005, 06:28 PM
So then i ask you, what's the point of your post?
OK, the post wasn't about me or my life experience.
Just because I haven't have the need for fighting doesn't mean that this applies to everybody. That's the point. Too many Aikidokas assume that their own life experience is the only possible acceptable and valid one. They don't accept that maybe for some other people life can be different and needs diferent responses.
It's not about me it's about aikido.

Bratzo BArrena

James Kelly
12-06-2005, 06:58 PM
OK, the post wasn't about me or my life experience.
Just because I haven't have the need for fighting doesn't mean that this applies to everybody. That's the point. Too many Aikidokas assume that their own life experience is the only possible acceptable and valid one. They don't accept that maybe for some other people life can be different and needs diferent responses.
It's not about me it's about aikido.

If you're not talking about your own life experiences, then whose are you talking about? The ‘Hippie-peace-and-love' people who are ‘very stupid or naive' in thinking this or that...? Why do you care? And why so mad at them anyway? If their ideas about conflict are so stupid do you think telling them they're stupid is going to change their thinking?

All anyone has is their own life experience. It's the only criteria you can use to decide whether or not to train aikido, or how to handle a potentially violent situation. Your time on this forum would be much more constructive to this community, I think, if you stuck to your own observations about your aikido and your situations and didn't create a mythical group of people (who you think are stupid) and try to speak for them (and then tell them how wrong they are). A group which, by the way, no one on in this thread has been able to identify.

If you're reacting to a specific person, or a specific incident, or a specific passage, quote it and tear it apart. Otherwise this is a silly thread.

xuzen
12-06-2005, 10:31 PM
<Boon imitating Mr Miyagi's speech>...Virtual Tough Guy wannabe need to practice in tough aikido school to allay their own insecurities. Try Yoshinkan-ryu or Tomiki-ryu, probably will help allay practitioner's insecurity <Mr Miyagi speech end>.

Ulises Garcia
12-06-2005, 10:58 PM
Guys, cut Bratzo some slack. He's just defending the martial side of Aikido (Bratzo, correct me if I missed your point). I can understand his perspective. There was a thread not so long ago about "Dojo Storming" (sorry, no link). In said thread, some people considered that a friendly and honorable challenge made from another art in the Aikido dojo was out of the question, and some even considered calling the police (I'm saying these things from memory, so they could be a little different, but that's how I remember them). Of course, this has nothing to do with life or death situations, but speaks a lot about the view of "martiality" (or lack of) that some people have. After all, O-Sensei was quite martial, and he took on all comers, AFAIK. It seems to me that Bratzo is concerned (as many others, me included), that the view of Aikido without hard training (read "committed untelegraphed attacks" with randomness tossed into it, and plenty of sincere randori) could cause over time for Aikido to become so watered down, that it will lose all of its self defense value. I can only agree with that...

Peace everybody, :cool:
-U-

justin
12-07-2005, 03:00 AM
Guess I am lucky where we train we get the options, if you can run then run, if you cant run then this would disarm him, if you feel that wouldn’t be enough this would put the guy in a world of pain long enough for you to make a honorable retreat.

CarlRylander
12-07-2005, 10:19 AM
O Sensei said:

'Never run from an oppponent'.

I have it on a list of his sayings.

bratzo_barrena
12-07-2005, 10:24 AM
[QUOTE=Benjamin Edelen]I have been taught that the philosohpy of Aikido's brand of conflict resolution is to preserve the well-being of both sides.

Answer: this is usually what is taught, and WHEN POSSIBLE is the right choise, but why can't peploe accept that SOMETIME, UNDER SOME CIRCUMSTANCES could be necessary harm the attacker?

[QUOTE=Benjamin Edelen] failing to avoid an avoidable physical confrontation make the resulting damage to you OR your enemy YOUR fault?

Answer: See, think before answering, I NEVER said when a confrontaion is avoidable fight anyway, I ALWAYS said SOMETIMES a confrontation is unavoidable.

[QUOTE=Benjamin Edelen] You had the power to protect everyone, but through negligence your put everyone in danger.

Answer: if the self-defense aspect of Aikido is not properly trained, you won't be able to defend yoursef or anybody. Which is my point.

[QUOTE=Benjamin Edelen] Why then do you not deserve to lose? Because you are always the hero in your own story? I am not convinced that I always deserve to win just because I think I am a good person. The other guy thinks he is a good person too.

Answer: AGAIN, I never said you deserve to win or loose, I sadid be prepared to defend yourself if necessary, you could win or loose, but trying.
You are the one who came with the idea of loosing (which implies the other wins) as a fair outcome for physically confrointing an aggression. That's stupid. Is that what Aikido has taught you? That those who can't avoid a confrontation deserve to loose?


Bratzo Barrena

bratzo_barrena
12-07-2005, 10:38 AM
And while we're on the subject of bullies. I got the $#!t beat out of me when I was a kid. Over and over again. When did it stop? Did it stop when I got bigger and stronger than them (which I did?)? No, because I was never aggressive enough to do anything with my size and strength. It stopped when I realized that I had a sense of humor and could make them laugh at the lunch table. That's when I gained just the little respect it takes to keep a bully from pounding you.

Answer: Ok, is a valid answer, make the laugh, so then for self-defense you need to train at a clown school, that's an option, but not everyone wants to be a clown

Had I studied aikido at the time and been able to calmly defend myself (which is not the likeliest scenario as it takes longer to get to that level in aikido than I had been alive) would I have been better off? Maybe, but then their wrath would have turned to another victim, and worse, I might have joined them just to be accepted. While they were laughing at my jokes they weren't beating anyone up.

Answer: being a clown is your wy to defend yourself and others, good for you, but taht doesn't mean Aikido is another option

[QUOTE=James Kelly] Again, the whole point of aikido as far as I can see it is to realize that the idea that the only two options are to fight or run (win or lose) is wrong.

Answer: Again, people why do you say things a I didn't wrote? I said that tihnking taht a confronatation is ALWAYS avoidable is stupid, and Aikido is a way of self-defense when you can avoid a fight. The one who sees it as win or loose is you, I see it as defend yourself physically when needed, if you 'win' good, if you 'loose' good, but at least defend yourself and don't be so stupid or naive thinking that a confrontation is ALWAYS avoidable

bratzo_barrena
12-07-2005, 10:59 AM
If you're not talking about your own life experiences, then whose are you talking about?

Answer: When I meant my life experience, I MEANT fighting. I wasn't talking about how much I have faught or not.
Obviously, hearing or reading those stupid anwers are part of my life experience.

[QUOTE=James Kelly]The ‘Hippie-peace-and-love' people who are ‘very stupid or naive' in thinking this or that...? Why do you care?

answer: Yes I think is stupid or naive thnking that ALWAYS under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES you can avoid a physical confrontation. Just SOMETIMES you can't.
I care because this way of thinking undermines the self-defense aspect of Aikido. Of course, it doesn't keep me from sleeping, but I care.

[QUOTE=James Kelly]And why so mad at them anyway? If their ideas about conflict are so stupid do you think telling them they're stupid is going to change their thinking?

Answer: I'm not mad at them. I jaust said the ideas where stupid, that's not being mad, it's true. I don't know if they're gonna change their minds or not, that's up to them, but when an idea is stupid I call it stupid.

[QUOTE=James Kelly]All anyone has is their own life experience. It's the only criteria you can use to decide whether or not to train aikido, or how to handle a potentially violent situation. Your time on this forum would be much more constructive to this community, I think, if you stuck to your own observations about your aikido and your situations and didn't create a mythical group of people (who you think are stupid) and try to speak for them (and then tell them how wrong they are). A group which, by the way, no one on in this thread has been able to identify.

As I said before, reading or listening this stupid answer are part of my life experice.
You can decide decide to train aikido for whatever reason you want, for health, for fun, for enlightment, because you like a girl in the class, whatever, I didn't talk about why a specific person trains Aikido, I said assuming you can always avoid a conflict is stupid.
I never talked about MY aikido eother, I talk about Aikido in a general fashion. Did you read the thread?
I didn't created this mythical group, they are there.

[QUOTE=James Kelly]If you're reacting to a specific person, or a specific incident, or a specific passage, quote it and tear it apart. Otherwise this is a silly thread.

Answer: if you condider this is a silly thread, an opinion I respect, don't be silly answering

Bratzo Barrena

bratzo_barrena
12-07-2005, 11:04 AM
<Boon imitating Mr Miyagi's speech>...Virtual Tough Guy wannabe need to practice in tough aikido school to allay their own insecurities. Try Yoshinkan-ryu or Tomiki-ryu, probably will help allay practitioner's insecurity <Mr Miyagi speech end>.

Answer: If you're referering to me as a 'Tough Guy' you're wrong, I'm very nice.
You don't need 'tough aikido school' to defend yoursellf. Aikido in essence is self-defense.
The thread wasn't about me, was about Aikido, so stupid answer. Please think before answering, won't kill you, maybe you even like it.

Bratzo Barrena

bratzo_barrena
12-07-2005, 11:10 AM
Guess I am lucky where we train we get the options, if you can run then run, if you cant run then this would disarm him, if you feel that wouldn't be enough this would put the guy in a world of pain long enough for you to make a honorable retreat.

Answer: I never said running wasn't an option, I even advise taht if this is one of you first options, you should train a sprinter and marathoner, to be an effective way of sel-defense. I said you can't ALWAYS run, so Aikido is there when you need it.

Bratzo Barrena

DaveS
12-07-2005, 11:17 AM
Answer: See, think before answering, I NEVER said when a confrontaion is avoidable fight anyway, I ALWAYS said SOMETIMES a confrontation is unavoidable.


There was a really good article about this a while back.

The major point it started with is that if your main goal is to improve the safety of yourself and those that you love, a defensive driving course, cardio fitness, healthy eating and taking care crossing roads are all much better investments of your time and money than any martial art. It's just that more people do martial arts 'cos it's a far more exciting and romantic image to imagine yourself fighting off a bunch of blood-crazed crackheads in a dark alley than to imagine yourself not having a heart attack.

Noone says (as far as I've heard) that there are no situations in which you need to fight, just that since most of them can be avoided (by talking, running, or not doing anything stupid) the few that remain are insignificant compared to the myriad other risks presented by modern life.

I'm still a fan of martial effectiveness, but more because it gives my training focus than because I feel it's likely to save my life and limb...

bratzo_barrena
12-07-2005, 11:25 AM
I think is disrespectful to those who for any reason end up facing a physical confrontation to say that you CAN ALWAYS avoid them. Is kind of blaming on them too.
People get attack and harm everyday, and they don't deserve ot just because they couldn't avoid it, as someone stupidly stated in the thread (I think he/she said "deserve to loose').
People who think that way usually come to 'how probable is that in yourlifetime anyone is gonna face an aggression, and the con to 5%, 1%',or so, please tell that to all the raped and killed kids and teenagers we see dayly on the news (oh, right the deserved it, because they couldn't avoid it, so it's ok, right? That's STUPID and OFFENSIVE) or the abused woman, or many persons that are dayly attacked. Please tell them not to be concerned, the probabilities are very low. Well they are part of that low percentage, and can happen to anyone. I hope not, but can happen.
Now defending yourself guaranties your gonna 'win', NO. But at least you tried. Maybe can save your life, maybe it won't, but at least Aikido can give you tools to try to defen youself

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

Taliesin
12-07-2005, 02:27 PM
Interesting thread guys - But for me the whole point is that the physical element is the LAST resort. That doesn't mean it's not a resort, or we shouldn't train for it. After all there a very Aikido joke that says

Q:What's better than presence of mind during a train crash?

A: Absence of body

James Kelly
12-07-2005, 03:55 PM
I think is disrespectful to those who for any reason end up facing a physical confrontation to say that you CAN ALWAYS avoid them. Is kind of blaming on them too.
People get attack and harm everyday, and they don't deserve ot just because they couldn't avoid it, as someone stupidly stated in the thread (I think he/she said "deserve to loose').
People who think that way usually come to 'how probable is that in yourlifetime anyone is gonna face an aggression, and the con to 5%, 1%',or so, please tell that to all the raped and killed kids and teenagers we see dayly on the news (oh, right the deserved it, because they couldn't avoid it, so it's ok, right? That's STUPID and OFFENSIVE) or the abused woman, or many persons that are dayly attacked. Please tell them not to be concerned, the probabilities are very low. Well they are part of that low percentage, and can happen to anyone. I hope not, but can happen.
Now defending yourself guaranties your gonna 'win', NO. But at least you tried. Maybe can save your life, maybe it won't, but at least Aikido can give you tools to try to defen youself
You're fighting with ghosts.

bratzo_barrena
12-07-2005, 04:09 PM
[QUOTE=James Kelly]You're fighting with ghosts.

I'm not fighting with anybody.
That's part of reality. That it haven't happened to you or me, doesn't mean it does not happen to anybody.

Bratzo Barrena

Lyle Bogin
12-07-2005, 09:07 PM
With regards to the point about being non-verbal...it's a fine strategy, but it can be perceived as very aggressive I think.

I also have strong distaste for blaming the victim, which is where a lot of arguments about evasion tend to wind up.

Talon
12-08-2005, 10:04 AM
I agree with Bratzo on most of his points. I think for AIKIDO to be AIKIDO as O'sensei invisioned it, it has to be martially effective. If its not, its not AIKIDO. The fact that so many practitioners doubt its effectiveness in a real world violent situation is a very very scary thought. That means that the practitioners themselves are unsure of its effectiveness and therefore perhaps thay are not really practicing AIKIDO.

James Davis
12-08-2005, 11:44 AM
Once it's obvious that there's going to be trouble, my sensei says to remain non-verbal (especially if there are witnesses). You won't waste brain power listening to them or trying to think of something to say, and you won't be responsible for provoking them. ;)

Apologize, whether you're wrong or not. If they still want to fight after that, then eat their lunch. evileyes
Yeah, I suppose that being non-verbal could be construed as aggressive. I'm all about talking with someone to try and work something out; that's why I started my post with "Once it's obvious that there's going to be trouble,". If they press the issue and want to get physical, then I'm not worried about their feelings any more. I just want to get home alive! ;)