fat bokken

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[sithknight]

In are dojo, there is a fat bokken, well not super fat, but more wood to it, except on the handle, its like heavy, and you can hit a tire with it and it won't break. Well they told me the name but i forgot it, any1 know?

[akiy]

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/suburito

-- Jun

[James Davis]

In are dojo, there is a fat bokken, well not super fat, but more wood to it, except on the handle, its like heavy, and you can hit a tire with it and it won't break. Well they told me the name but i forgot it, any1 know?
Suburito?

[Ulises Garcia]

Well, that's odd. I've had one for two years now, and I didn't know what it was called either. I referred to it as the "big bad bokken", or "rowing oar" bokken. Damn, those excercises are painful. The regular bokken feels light as a feather after that... :D

-U-

[MaryKaye]

We have one too; we always laugh at the hapless person who picks it up from the rack....

It does look more like a burrito than the average bokken, come to think of it.

Mary Kaye

[Derek Gaudet]

Suburito is an excellent tool for training in Kenjutsu. Many sword schools use them. As the link above says they are mainly for developing form and forearms like Popeye's ;) . Basically if you can keep form with one then it helps when your using shinken or Bokuto. They are not typically used for kumitachi or tachidori, but rather just development of form in Japanese swordsmanship. I've handled one before, it's a good workout. I should get around to getting my own...

[Ulises Garcia]

We have one too; we always laugh at the hapless person who picks it up from the rack....

It does look more like a burrito than the average bokken, come to think of it.

Mary Kaye

I nearly laughed my head off when I first learned the name. In spanish, "Suburito" sounds close to "su burrito", which means "his burrito". Anybody hungry? I have "su-burito"... :D

-U-

[Mark Uttech]

Someone should mention that training with heavy weapons has the downside of causing calcum buildups in the wrists.

In gassho

[Chizikunbo]

In Ryukyu Kempo (Oyata lineage) we use a Suburito regularly, when I cam to Aikido I was amazed with the bokken for the Aiki-ken excersizes, it was like a sparrow tail lol. I love them both, but for things like Eishin Ryu Iaido which we use a live blade for or a Bokken, I must say I love the bokken hands down, my suburito weighs a ton! Using it constantly for two hours is a bit much :-)

[Derek Gaudet]

I nearly laughed my head off when I first learned the name. In spanish, "Suburito" sounds close to "su burrito", which means "his burrito". Anybody hungry? I have "su-burito"... :D

-U-

Well I think the reason for the name has something to do with the breakdown of the word. Suburito- "Suburi: core movements, I've seen the term in Kenjutsu, Probably has something to do with building on the core movements. And the second part "To" : which is yet another word used for sword, much like "bokuto"- Wood Sword, or "Koto"- old sword.
I guess Su burrito is another way of looking at it ;) .

[sithknight]

Hey thanks, now all i have to do is get me a Suburito, any1 know a good place to get them?, now 4 some reason, i want a burrito xD

[grondahl]

Since you train in Pat Hendricks dojo i would guess that a suburito is not what your looking for. Rather a "Iwama style bokken", a little thicker than the ordinary ones and with a blunt tip. They can be used for both suburi, tanren and partner practice.
Something like this http://aikido.tozando.com/abwo.html

[Chuck.Gordon]

Just FYI ... It does not rhyme with burrito.

[sithknight]

well, suburito bokken can help you with your strikes, a lot, but then again, it would be nice to have both

[sithknight]

wow, there like cheaper than bokken!

[Nick Simpson]

Seen some monster variations on these in japan, octagonal shaped ones and actual oar shaped ones in imitation of the weapon musashi killed saskai kojiro with. My standard one is enough for me, although you might want to ask Tim about the homemade 'bokken' he made sometime...

[Tim Gerrard]

Yep the 'soul edge' is still alive and kicking. Nearly did my back in for the first couple of weeks. I'll try and find a photo for you guys.....

[Nick Simpson]

Please dear god, dont tell me you still have that? It is awesome like. Wait till you guys see the photo...

[Tim Gerrard]

Course, and it's still in regular use too! Why do 200 cuts, when 40 does the same job? :D

[Kent Enfield]

Well I think the reason for the name has something to do with the breakdown of the word. Suburito- "Suburi: core movements, I've seen the term in Kenjutsu."Suburi" does not mean "core movements." Well, I suppose it could be translated that way in an appropriate context. Rather, it means "basic swing(ing)." In kendo at least, it always refers to solo practice of strikes and related drills (jogeburi, nanameburi, etc.).

[Derek Gaudet]

Agreed. I never meant it as a direct translation, just in Kenjutsu and Iai, I have heard it used when talking about core movements, which could mean basic techniques, basic swings, basic movements, what have you. Remember Japanese words can have several meanings, or variations of their translation depending on how they are used. It was just a thought about why this training tool was called Suburito.

[JohnSeavitt]

it always refers to solo practice of strikes ...

Indeed; interestingly, it is also used to describe practice swings of a baseball bat. However, hit a ball with that bat and it isn't suburi anymore.

John

[akiy]

Indeed; interestingly, it is also used to describe practice swings of a baseball bat. However, hit a ball with that bat and it isn't suburi anymore.
That's why I'd translate the "su" in "suburi" as "bare" -- a "bare swing" that doesn't hit anything.

-- Jun

[Derek Gaudet]

That's why I'd translate the "su" in "suburi" as "bare" -- a "bare swing" that doesn't hit anything.

-- Jun
We learn something new everyday. Good to know Jun. Add it to my dictionary ;) .

[sithknight]

does to mean anything? (suburi*to*)

[Derek Gaudet]

Check a few post up. One way of looking at the word "to" is sword.... as in "bokuto" Wood sword, or "koto", old sword.

[JohnSeavitt]

does "to" mean ...

"to" is one rendering of "sword", as seen in "nihonto" (sword of japanese manufacture or style), "iaito" (sword for iai), and "suburito" (yeah, well, you get the idea).


Jun -

Is your reading of "su" as "bare" literal? I somehow had the impression it was along the lines of "element" or (not so well) "fundamental" or thereabouts. Regardless, I like "bare" a lot for conveying the idea.

John

oops. I am being redundant with the "to" business.

[akiy]

Hi John,

I'd say that translating "su" as "bare" is more literal than metaphorical, although with a symbolic language such as Japanese, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line. But, for example, a term such as "sude" ("su" + "te" as in "katate"), the "su" indicates that the hand is "bare" as in "not holding anything." Hope that helps...

-- Jun

[Josh Reyer]

Also, suhada, "bare skin", sugao "face without make-up", suashi "bare feet", suatama "bare head".　

The Koujien dictionary defines suburi as 鍛錬や練習のため、刀・バット・ラケットなどを、実際のときのように振ること。Tanren ya renshuu no tame, katana batto raketto nado wo, jissai no toki no you ni furu koto. "the act of swinging a katana, bat, racket, etc. as when really using it, for the purpose of training or practice."

The Daijirin dictionary (2nd ed.) defines it as 刀・木刀・バットなどを、練習のために空（くう）で振ること。Katana bokuto batto nado wo, renshuu no tame ni kuu de furu koto. "the act of swinging a katana, bokuto, bat, etc. through the air for practice."

Note that this is distinct from 空振り karaburi, which is swinging something through the air because you missed. :)

[sithknight]

whats koujien?, and daijirin????????????

[Matthew White]

Why do 200 cuts, when 40 does the same job? Because only doing 40 cuts with a heavier weapon will only build your muscles. 200 cuts builds muscle memory, perfects your hasuji. If all you're worried about is how hard you can swing, hitting the free weights is much more practical than swinging a heavier piece of wood.
IMHO, either swing your standard bokuto 200 times, or swing your suburito 200 times... but it's repetition that will improve your training... sorry, no shortcuts.

[Michael Cardwell]

Yep the 'soul edge' is still alive and kicking. Nearly did my back in for the first couple of weeks. I'll try and find a photo for you guys.....

Soul Edge? Tell me you didn't make a copy of Knightmare's sword from soul caliber 2 did you? If so you have got to find of photo of it and post it.

[sithknight]

????????

[Mark Uttech]

Onegaishimasu. I think it needs to be repeated that training with heavy weapons causes calcium buildups on the wrists.

In gassho

[Ryan Bigelow]

Another aside, when practicing for my shodan in Kendo I was told to stay from using heavier bokken until my form improved because there is a tendency to use strength and "power" your way through a swing with a suburito. Of course my aikido teacher is always yelling at me for using too much power so this particular advice may apply to me alone, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Good training
Ryan

[Michael Cardwell]

Is this heavy enough? This is the only sword that I know of called soul edge, I just can't believe someone would make a copy of it.

[Mat Hill]

I think it needs to be repeated that training with heavy weapons causes calcium buildups on the wrists.Useful advice... but how would one recognise these buildups?

Incidentally, everyone's body make-up will be different so maybe it's less of a problem for some people. I've done literally thousands of suburi with both heavy suburito and poles and touch wood, no probs yet... as far as I know... which brings me back to my question!

BTW, I was told the same as Ryan, and also because it can pull your body out of the line of the correct structure and cause overcompensation if you're not 'programmed' to it, which will cause repetitive strain.

Matthew White or anyone else, what's 'hasuji'?

[Derek Gaudet]

Hasuji is the angle at which the Blade engages it's target. I.E. if you are doing kesa Giri than you want your blade at roughly 45 degrees, and if you are cutting at a 45, but your blade is actually at a different angel, then that would qualify as bad hasuji. Some blades can take bad hasuji, but only a few degrees off, others will bend, break, chip, whatever with bad hasuji. In the end Hasuji is the angle the blade advances on the target.

[Josh Reyer]

whats koujien?, and daijirin????????????

The two best single-volume Japanese dictionaries. Comparable to Webster and Oxford (in their single-volume versions).

[Mark Uttech]

Trust me Matt, if you have a calcium buildup, you will see a bony lump on the outside of your wrist. I used to have a couple of them, one was about the size of a quarter. But by using lighter weapons and massaging the buildup, it went away over time.
In gassho

[Ed Shockley]

I use a heavy bokken (except for Nishio practice) but when I do use a suburito I like to do slow cuts concentrating on form. Does that reduce, remove or increase the possibility of "calcium build ups?" Also, are they caused by the weight or by the form of the cutting motion?

[Mat Hill]

Thanks for the description Derek, I wonder why I hadn't heard that expression before - I'll have to ask my sensei.

And thanks Mark: I wasn't doubting you btw, just wondering. I seem to have escaped them so far!

[Mark Uttech]

Ed, I think the calcium buildups are caused by the weight, since I have been using lighter weapons I never had a return of the problem. I first noticed the problem when I was using a 6' crow or pry bar to practice jo. In gassho

[rorenshi]

I reckon its a Tanren Bokken, its heavier than a normal bokken and designed to strengthen the arms and torso. The tanren bit is just the jujutsu school the bokken came from. I think our normal bokken are Kito-ryu, or that might be what judo is based on...hmm.

[sithknight]

i am so lost -_-, does it only build it up in the wrist or does it also build the muscle up somewere?

[James Smithe]

How many cuts are you suppose to do with the subirito?

[rottunpunk]

heavy suburi bokken, are simply used as a quick way to build up mscle but tire the arms out at the same time.

i have a girly one made for me as normal ones are too big

personally, as i do iai, i prefer to practice suburi with a lighter bokken as all the power should come from hara not arms and shoulders.

the calcium build up point is a good one.

stick to your normal bokkto unless you know how to cut properly in the first place

:p

[raul rodrigo]

heavy suburi bokken, are simply used as a quick way to build up mscle but tire the arms out at the same time.

personally, as i do iai, i prefer to practice suburi with a lighter bokken as all the power should come from hara not arms and shoulders.
:p


Actually, my first sensei insisted that we use heavy bokken precisely so that we would learn to use the hara to lift the sword, not the muscular strength of the arms. We would do hundreds of cuts (say, 600 or so, 300 on each side) until you were so tired that you were forced to find another way to lift the sword. Eventually I learned just how it was done, and my kokyu has really benefited.

We don't use the heavy bokken any more, because our shihan wants us to learn the more subtle ken movements that you can't do with a big bokken. But it was invaluable as a training aid in its time.


R

[jxa127]

Since you train in Pat Hendricks dojo i would guess that a suburito is not what your looking for. Rather a "Iwama style bokken", a little thicker than the ordinary ones and with a blunt tip. They can be used for both suburi, tanren and partner practice.
Something like this http://aikido.tozando.com/abwo.html

Those are the ones that we use at our dojo. They're a bit heavier than other white oak bokken that I've used, but quite a bit lighter than the suburito we have on the dojo wall. :)

Regards,

-Drew

[Dave Fryers]

Is the Calcium build up point valid? Any evidence that the use of a heavy bokken does cause it? If so there should also be lots of weight trainers / lifters with lots of Calcium build up, shouldn't there? Perhaps it's thought there might be a possibility of this in some people, and this thought has evolved to be accepted wisdom?