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bratzo_barrena
12-01-2005, 03:10 PM
Why most Aikido dojos don't train techniques against kicks?
There are two common answers that people get. and both are very stupid
1. it's dangerous for uke to take ukemi. Uke must be very good with ukemi.
If we accept this as a good reason, we could think: taking ukemi for shihonage is very dangerous if uke doesn't know how to do it, so maybe we shouldn't practice shihonage. Or taking ukemi for iriminage could be dangerous, maybe we shouldn't practice iriminage. Actually aikido is pretty dangerous if uke doesn't know how to take ukemi, maybe we shouldn't practice aikido at all.
This kind of reasoning is silly. Not practicing Aikido techniques against kicks for this reason is wrong.
If uke isn't prepared to take ukemi from a kick, then the practice must be progressive until uke can take ukemi properly. But not practicing at all means uke will never develop this skill.

2. Against kicks, aikido uses the same principles as with other attacks.
though this is 100% true, it's also true that the way a leg is manipulated to achieve control or make a projection differs from an arm, head, or other part. So practicing against kick is important to learn how to manipulate a leg, how can one disrupt ukes balance using the leg as leverage, how the joints of the leg can be locked or pinned, etc.
So even though the basic principles of Aikido are the same, we must be aware that the different parts of the body need to be manipulated differently.

Another reason I think why is important to train against kicks is a mental and spiritual one. Aikido not only trains the body, also the mind and spirit.
(important: I don't mean Mind and Spirit in a religious or metaphysical fashion. I refer as Mind the capability to analise an attack, process the information and take the best possible response, with practice this process becomes unconscious though. I refer to Spirit as the way one person confronts a situation. Under attack one can freeze or become so scared that he/she can't react properly (weak spirit), or one can face the attack calmly, which gives more possibilities of success (strong spirit)

If an Aikidoka has never faced kicks, is probable he/she might be unsecured, even scared when facing them, because he/she doesn't know what to do. training against kicks prepares your mind and spirit to feel confident that you have trained for that situation and that your training will pay off. This confident state of mind is important to confront any situation, even if at the you succeed or you don't.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, Florida

odudog
12-01-2005, 03:21 PM
I too think that we need to learn against kicks. The first style of Aikido that I learned taught a little bit about kicks. But, with that said, you must be very good at ukemi to practice against this with some kind of proficiency / realism. They way that I practice currently, uke's leg that is the closest to nage is the leg that should hit the mat first. However, if nage is holding that leg due to a kick then uke is more prone to fall flat on his/her back and not have time to curve the spin so to dissipate the thud gradually throughout the back hence the danger.

bratzo_barrena
12-01-2005, 03:34 PM
hi Mike,
one advise
when tori is holding one of uke's legs and projects, uke needs to turn the body so he/she falls sided, on the side of the leg that tori is not holding, use your arm to slap the mat to cushion the fall. Try to never fall flat on your back.

Bratzo Barrena
Head-Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

roosvelt
12-01-2005, 03:52 PM
"Why don't we train techniques against kicks?"

Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.

akiy
12-01-2005, 04:06 PM
Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.
Interesting story! Do you have a source for it?

I've been to seminars with aikido shihan wherein both kicks are utilized as both uke and nage. Fun stuff.

-- Jun

roosvelt
12-01-2005, 04:14 PM
Interesting story! Do you have a source for it?

-- Jun

Fresh out from Roosvelt's rumor mill. And I have two independent sources to verify my story. For obvious reason, i can't tell you the name of my sources.

Derek Gaudet
12-01-2005, 04:14 PM
"Why don't we train techniques against kicks?"

Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.

I like that story :D ... In my Aikido dojo we trained against kicks, anything from straight on kicks to spin kicks. This is probably due to the fact that in my area there are a lot of karate and Tae Kwon Do schools, so chances are if you need to defend yourself, the guy (or gal) may be a kicker. At any given time about 75-80 % of our dojo had trained in a kicking art. It is a whole new ball game when you have to get inside the circle of someone who is a skilled kicker. But with enough practice it can be done. The trick is exactly what O Sensei demonstarted in that story, cut the kick of before it leaves the ground.

James Davis
12-01-2005, 04:18 PM
One down side, is you'll have to make time to train for kicking.

crbateman
12-01-2005, 05:13 PM
O'Sensei's counter was an interesting one, but not particularly practical. Unless you are in a drag bar or dating my ex-wife, the person kicking you will probably not be wearing a skirt... :D (And given the choice, do yourself a favor and pick the drag bar.)

Jerry Miller
12-01-2005, 05:26 PM
We train against kicks. Nothing too complicated but it is a requirement.

Joe Jutsu
12-01-2005, 06:27 PM
I'm being tested over three arts of Keri waza on my ikkyu test this coming wednesday. It's fun stuff, but we don't have any great kickers in my dojo, so I wouldn't say that this is preparing me to take on some bad ass TKD kicker, but it does give me an idea of what it would be like, or perhaps better put what I would do in that situation

Joe

Dominic Toupin
12-01-2005, 10:58 PM
In Yoseikan Aikido, we train to kick and we have a lot of ashi tori waza (leg take-down or leg projection). I think that kick can be a very useful atemi too...

xuzen
12-02-2005, 12:00 AM
Hello B. Barrena,

It is a good idea to learn to apply aikido or aiki-principles on non-traditional scenarios or to explore it outside its conventional curriculum. However, as far as my dojo is concern, we ran into some obstacles.

1) Among the core students that are in our dojo, non are trained kickers. We do learn to defend against kicks, but as non of us are extremely good kickers hence our nage are not able to give us the full range of kicking motion to explore with.

2) From our limited knowledge of how to handle kicks, we conclude that the most efficient method of dealing with kicks is the same as how we deal with hands attacks. I.e., no fancy stuff; move out of its trajectory, apply atemi to distract then followed by kuzushi (balance breaking). Once you get him down, you can then move on to the typical osae (immobilization) finish, if you so desire.

2) Not many of our students are comfortable with taking ukemi from kicks, at least not from full fighting speed, not since we had a TKD player vs our adjutant sensei fiasco. The TKD guy was sparring with our people and my adjutant sensei duck and apply what looks like sukui nage and sent the TKD guy back out with a limp. I attributed this to the inept ability of the TKD guy to take proper ukemi. After that, most of the students are afraid to kick and ukemi from that height.

My point is, although in theory it is good to practice how to deal with kicks, in a typical aikido dojo there are just not too many trained kickers to train with; good kickers with good ukemi skill are hard to find asset (at least in my dojo).

As for me, I am a terrible kicker, mae geri is my only type of kick which has any usefulness in it. I personally like to have two feet for balance as oppose to one. Should I want a longer striking range or harder strike, I prefer to use my trusted good friend, the Jo.

Boon.

Keith R Lee
12-02-2005, 12:11 AM
There are a couple examples of "aiki" style responses to kicks in this video of a buddy and I:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1153352560647913248&q=aikido

We were trying to find some type of "aiki" response to kicks, but I think we were pretty unsuccessful realistically. Against someone who does not know how to kick, you're probably okay. But when someone does know how to kick, I'd throw any sort of Aikido techniques out the door, other than evasion.

Trained kickers are too dangerous. And I'm not talkin fancy spinning-jumping-roundhouse-split kicks. I'm talking Thai-style leg kicks, roundhouses, and front stop kicks. Anything other than these are superfluous anyway.If someone knows how to do these kick well and bring some power, there will be no "blending" going on. Either block, or get the hell out of the way.

James Kelly
12-02-2005, 12:34 AM
O'Sensei's counter was an interesting one, but not particularly practical. Unless you are in a drag bar or dating my ex-wife, the person kicking you will probably not be wearing a skirt... :D (And given the choice, do yourself a favor and pick the drag bar.)

ok, that was funny...

justin
12-02-2005, 02:07 AM
if aikido is to teach us to prepare against a street attack how many thugs out there would apply true ma kicking ability not many i would assume, i come from a wado ryu background so kicking when requried in my dojo isnt a problem i however see a lot of strains when you see people not trained trying to copy these kind of attacks.

James Davis
12-02-2005, 11:09 AM
Interestingly enough, we had one of our Tae Kwon Do roommates stay late for an aikido class last night. He had some ukemi training, so Sensei had us defend against kicks. He had us in hanmi handachi, so nobody had to kick really high or fall from a great height. We brushed aside the front snap kick and wrapped our hands around uke's calf and shin (no grab, just wrapped around). After the fall, we applied pressure to the tsubo in the inner thigh. Fun stuff. :) I think it would be unpleasant from a greater height. I saw one of my sempai scoop a karateka's ankle and just ENTER. He irimied right into the guy and sent him back quite a ways. He didn't try to kick him anymore.

Eric Webber
12-02-2005, 11:20 AM
We also practice kicks at our dojo, we use basic aiki principles and modify the details of the technique to fit the kick, the kicker, and the nage. Lots 'o fun, especially with experienced kickers.

jonreading
12-02-2005, 11:55 AM
Working with kicks is important to training, and should not be neglected. That said, I do feel that kicking is considerably more dangerous as an attack then many of the practiced attacks in aikido. I feel this way for reasons:
1. Most dojo do not have a significant amount of proficient kickers. This creates danger for the student kicking (strains, tears, skeletal damage, not to mention an unplanned fall) and for the student receiving the kick (i.e. getting kicked). As a result, many dojo remove kicking from their curriculum.
2. The ukemi from kicking is more difficult. Hand techniques usually place the fulcrum of the technique near uke's head and vital organs. The closer uke's head is to the fulcrum of a technique, the less energy that body part has to disperse. Kicking techniques usually place uke's head and vital organs farther away for the fulcrum, so there is more energy to disperse.

To address the original post, I think that there are good reasons to exclude kicking from dojo curriculum, especially if the instructor or students are incapable of kicking and taking ukemi from kicks. Does that give those individuals permission to exclude kicking from aikido? No. But, sometimes instructors are afraid to admit that kicking is beyond their capability and guise that inability in the form of, "there is no kicking in aikido."

justin
12-02-2005, 01:51 PM
Interestingly enough, we had one of our Tae Kwon Do roommates stay late for an aikido class last night. He had some ukemi training, so Sensei had us defend against kicks. He had us in hanmi handachi, so nobody had to kick really high or fall from a great height. We brushed aside the front snap kick and wrapped our hands around uke's calf and shin (no grab, just wrapped around). After the fall, we applied pressure to the tsubo in the inner thigh. Fun stuff. :) I think it would be unpleasant from a greater height. I saw one of my sempai scoop a karateka's ankle and just ENTER. He irimied right into the guy and sent him back quite a ways. He didn't try to kick him anymore.


i kinda follow you but dont get the bit where you brush aside a front snap kick ? a maegeri fully deployed wouldnt be brushed aside with ease, or i could missing something here

bratzo_barrena
12-02-2005, 01:58 PM
For some of the answers I've read on my thread, I've discover two new stupid, illogical answer to why in Aikido there should be no practice against kicks:

1. The possibilities of being attack by somebody proficient in kicks is very low.
let me remaind all of you who think this way, that is even less probable taht anyone will ever be attacked by a proficient swordsman. So in Aikido the practice of techniques against swords (bokken) should be prohited?
I guess those who use this argument as a valid one use the same logic and do not practice techniques against bokken attack either, Don't you?

2. Very few aikidoist know how to kick proficiently.
Yes, it's true. Also very few are proficient boxers, so, we should stop the practice of techniques against punches? That's just stupid.
As the uke doesn't need to be an excelent boxer for tori to practice techniques against punches, nor uke needs to be a superb kicker.
Those who think this is a valid argument, I guess only accept in their dojos, or train with professional boxers, master grapplers, and excelent kickers, and don't consider as uke to anyone who doesn't have all these skills, don't you?


Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

ikkitosennomusha
12-02-2005, 01:59 PM
I was tought 4 major ways to defend against kicks. The ukemi was very safe and it is always fun to train for this!

odudog
12-02-2005, 02:29 PM
I just remembered something. About 2 weeks ago my dojo-cho was teaching an Aikido technique that he says was a throwback. You enter {irimi} but you atemi the uke with your entire body with your shoulder doing the leading. He said that this technique was his introduction to Aikido. He saw Aikido performed once and wanted to see if this thing was for real for he couldn't believe what he saw{he is a black belt in Shotokan}. So on his first day at an Aikido dojo he decided to attack an Aikido yudansha with a kick and this technique was performed on him. He said that he flew back so far and hard that it literally scared the crap out of him. He almost immediately walked out of the dojo to never return.

bratzo_barrena
12-02-2005, 02:37 PM
so he/she never returned... so? are you implying that as a reason to not training against kicks?
I don't think the problem was Aikido, he/she was the problem. He/she doesn't have the will to train. What was he/she specting from a martial art, to get a kiss?
You wrote he/she was an advanced karateka, or was other martial art? anyway, Didn't he/she ever get a good kick or punch there? or maybe that's why he/she also left that martial art?
Maybe he/she should try ballet. But wait... he/she can get an injure there too. maybe he/she should never get of the bed, that coul be safer

odudog
12-02-2005, 02:59 PM
Mr. Barrena, you missed the part where I said "...my dojo-cho" and "...almost immediately walked out...". He did stay, in fact, he switched over to Aikido. He became a 4th dan this year and his instructor {6th dan} said that the promotion was waaaaaayyyyy over due.

Mark Uttech
12-02-2005, 02:59 PM
The Ninja Turtles use kicks...

bratzo_barrena
12-02-2005, 03:07 PM
Hey Mike,
yes I didn't get that, i understood he left for good (sorry English isn't my nativa language), So I apology for that.
But anyway, the general idea of my coment is still valid. That a person (any other person, ok, not your friend) refuses to learn Aikido because is afraid of getting an injury (that can hapen from any technique, not just from kicks) is not a good argument. As I stated in the begining of the thread.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

James Davis
12-02-2005, 04:52 PM
i kinda follow you but dont get the bit where you brush aside a front snap kick ? a maegeri fully deployed wouldnt be brushed aside with ease, or i could missing something here
Sorry, I neglected to mention moving to the side while doing this. Sensei didn't want us to block the kick, and he insisted on our touch being feather light so we didn't immediately lift the leg too high before doing technique.

We kind of scooped it, a little...

AFTER getting the heck outta the way! ;)

MaryKaye
12-02-2005, 06:56 PM
I saw some very beautiful aikido against roundhouse kicks the other day. Tremendously graceful on both uke's and nage's part.

On the other hand, I have a teenaged training partner who likes to kick my shins and step on my feet, and I've found it very difficult to do anything aikido-like with those attacks. The recent "Mirror" article suggested atemi to make him keep further away, and indeed, that's the only thing that has worked so far.

In our dojo, keri waza are on the first kyu test, but the candidate is almost forced to "steal" them as they are taught so seldom. I think I have done keri waza three times in three years' training. And I remember a test a few years back where we heard uke hissing between his teeth "Throw me already! I can't keep my leg up here any longer!"

Mary Kaye

Derek Gaudet
12-02-2005, 07:24 PM
Here's my take on things. While the probability may be slim in being attack by a skilled kicker, it still exist. The probability of falling down is much higher then being attacked, does that mean give little thought to technique and emphasize ukemi? I say if the chance is there don't take a chance. I believe that keri goshin waza is important, because the fact is that some people kick, and some people are very skilled at it.
My opinion in training against kicks is this... Train against the skilled, and if they aren't skilled then it would benefit them to learn how to basically kick. Understanding an attack and how it works will improve greatly the ability to understand why and how a technique against it will work. Training against a sloppy kick or punch gets us nowhere in a martial art except giving us a false belief that we can defend ourselves against a real punch/kick. Sure it may take time to teach people to strike, but I believe in order to have a proper defense it must be practiced with a proper attack.
In my experience there are two types of people that will kick at you: 1. someone who watches way to many kung fu movies or, 2. more likely they know exactly what they are doing, and that makes it a very dangerous game. Sure ukemi is harder from these things, but in my opinion it's not a convincing argument. It's like a lot of BJJ getting rid of knee bars because they are hard on the knees, if your legitimately defending yourself it's not your knees you have to worry about, and it might just be the thing to get you out of a sticky situation, just practice in a safe manor.
Generally with a kick I believe the most important part in defense is cutting it off before the kick is at it's full potential. Every strike has an explosion point, cut it off before that point or make it go beyond that point and it becomes easier to deal with. An example that I like is against those fancy TKD spin kicks (Which I have done before), believe it or not some people will actually use these. But to defend against them you just wait for them to start the spin enter in on them as their back is turn and they fall over, vola, and all you did was walk towards them. Well that's my 2cents, might differ, but that's the world of Aikido for ya ;) .

Devon Natario
12-02-2005, 08:14 PM
In Bushenkai Aikido we trained to defend against kicks. In my honest opinion they weren't the best defenses to a kick, but they were the Aiki way of defending from a kick (Blending and moving).

I personally feel that self-defense is the most important aspect of martial arts, but that's why I study, and not everyone has to agree with that. Everyone finds there own reason to study.

I personally think grabbing a kick, checking (lifting a leg to block the kick), or stuffing (stomping their kick, before they kick) are best ways in that order to defend from kicks. I am sure everyone that trains in the defense has their own way of defending from them though and it works for them.

I would hope that Aikidoka train to defend kicks, punches, and groundfighting, but Im sure not all do.

Leon Aman
12-02-2005, 10:20 PM
Why most Aikido dojos don't train techniques against kicks?
There are two common answers that people get. and both are very stupid

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, Florida


I'm not trying to baffle my mind why aikido teaches nothing against kicking, maybe there are some subjective reasons behind it,,,,I just took up other martial arts to study those techniques that aikido doesnt have, instead. :o

ad_adrian
12-02-2005, 11:46 PM
in yoshinkan we hav trained against kicks before
the reason why u dont need to train against kicks is higer up when u have started to get a grasp of tru aikido u do not need to practice against them ur aikido will come naturally ur blocking willb e up to par and u'll be able to easily block it and irimi nage the attacker there r many and many of attacks u can use its not different from punching once u know what ur doing

Mat Hill
12-04-2005, 07:16 AM
Most aikido dojo don't train kicks very often because the sensei can't kick for toffee, and nor can most of the students! I'm not saying this is a good excuse - I'm with Bratzo, that since most aikido people can't punch their way through wet toilet paper either it doesn't mean we shouldn't train against punches.

I'm not saying this is inherently bad either: I'd rather follow Leon's suggestion of training in another art to deal with kicks than to risk inculcating a false sense of security by training against very very bad kicks!

But to the people who say, aiki against a kick is just the same as aiki against any other attack, these words are actually meaningless unless you practice against kicks! The ingredients of aiki include maai, evasive and entering footwork etc, but what on earth makes you think you'll automatically have these things against a kick when it takes years of hard training to become halfway decent at these things against punches which we practice a lot, and sticks which we practice a lot etc...?!

This attitude is prevalent with people who say things like, just cut the kick, by stepping in and using kuzushi against the kick... essentially a stop kick. Well, again, you're talking about a series of complicated actions and reactions even if you've got to the stage where your movement-base in aiki is reflex (which you probably haven't - I haven't most of the time after 15 years!), and even if you're talking about the nen-before-nen (initiating the attack!), you still need to recognize the signs of the unborn kick from the kicker.

The kicker will likely have practiced the kick thousands of times (maybe not so many if they are 'just' a 'street thug' whatever that is but...!), and even if you've practiced your moves against non-kickers thousands of times, the kick is ultimately a lot simpler than most aiki waza! Plus they'll have practiced it, and setting it up against people trying to stop them... whereas you'll have practiced in harmony with your nice sempai who's not really trying to take your pretty little head off.

And have you ever tried stop-kicking a stop-kicker??!! I have many times; in Thai format in my shooto dojo, in wing chun kungfu and in free sparring... it'll really mess with your warrior-philosopher Zen nen trickery I can tell you!

Sorry for going on again... I'm not trying to come across as a know-it-all so sorry if I cause anyone any offence; but I really don't understand or believe how people can maintain things like 'you don't need to train against these things when you know what you're doing'... when quite frankly you'll never know what you're doing if you don't train against these things! It's a perfect example of a circular argument!

bratzo_barrena
12-04-2005, 02:34 PM
Just to clarify,
Most ukes don't know how to properly kick is not excuse for not training against kicks (as most ukes maybe don't know how to properly puch is not excuse for not raining against punches) But that doesn't mean that it's also a good idea to train how to properly kick and punch to make practice more productive. Obviously it will help undestand more how a kicks work and how to counter them.
Just another thing, I also think is a mith most aikidokas don't know how to kick or puch, actually a lot of them come from other martial arts with a lot of training in kicks and punches, even grappling and so.
So actually in an Aikido there are those who do know how to punch/kick/grapp, etc and those who don't.
As we we usually change partners frecuently during one class, one should have the opportunity to train with those who know how to attack, and those who don't know; which in itslef its a great exprience and helps you train with people of very diffrents skills.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshing Dojo
Doral, FL

Mat Hill
12-04-2005, 08:26 PM
Just to clarify,
Most ukes don't know how to properly kick is not excuse for not training against kicks (as most ukes maybe don't know how to properly puch is not excuse for not raining against punches) But that doesn't mean that it's also a good idea to train how to properly kick and punch to make practice more productive. I think it's a good idea to spend a little time on how to kick and punch in every aikido class. This should be graded up with your grade so by the time you reach ikkyuu/shoudan you should be working on and against combinations of one-twos and one-two-threes.

Just another thing, I also think is a mith most aikidokas don't know how to kick or puch, actually a lot of them come from other martial arts with a lot of training in kicks and punches, even grappling and so.
So actually in an Aikido there are those who do know how to punch/kick/grapp, etc and those who don't.That's true, but I've known many very good punchers and kickers from other background who fall into the 'just oooonnnne huge long gyaku-tsuki aaaannnnd heeeeeere it coooooooomes' trap as soon as they step on the mat, into the aiki box! How many good strikers have you seen on an aiki mat coming in with say, a good well-balanced tight boxing jab? With me I can count them with the fingers of no hands!

justinc
12-05-2005, 01:06 AM
How many good strikers have you seen on an aiki mat coming in with say, a good well-balanced tight boxing jab?

Quite a few in our school. Multiple martial arts are taught and many of the students train in more than one art. In aikido class we generally don't practice much against kicking, but in randori, kicks are seen on a somewhat regular basis. Real strikes too as those that cross train either have Hapkido or TKD training as well.

As for your boxing jab; they're mostly ignorable. There's no energy to directly work with unless you go for catching the return side of the jab then shihonage or some form of hip or shoulder throw is realttively easy. If you're not looking for that, then there's no forward projection of nage's centre with a jab, which leaves you little to work with, but also means that the strike isn't going to hit you either. If you've let them get into the range where a jab would hit you, you've lost you ma'ai so something else needs to be worked on prior to this point. Now, a haymaker or other big circular punch, is another story, but the basic jab or upper cut-style punch are not going to give you much to work with, but also don't cause you to have to react, assuming the rest of your aiki prinicples are maintained.

Mat Hill
12-05-2005, 04:00 AM
Quite a few in our school...Congratulations. You're in the minority.

In aikido class we generally don't practice much against kicking, but in randori, kicks are seen on a somewhat regular basis. So any idea why they're not practised in class especially as there seems to be a lot of cross fertilisation not to say interest in your school? And how do people fare against them in randori? My guess is they're stepping in with a big 'here it comes' and a single kick right?

As for your boxing jab; they're mostly ignorable. There's no energy to directly work with unless you go for catching the return side of the jab then shihonage or some form of hip or shoulder throw is realttively easy. If you're not looking for that, then there's no forward projection of nage's centre with a jab, which leaves you little to work with, but also means that the strike isn't going to hit you either. If you've let them get into the range where a jab would hit you, you've lost you ma'ai so something else needs to be worked on prior to this point...Firstly I chose the jab as a quick example. The thread is already about kicking! But since nobody's really saying much at the moment about kicking and you've responded about the jab, and the jab has some things in common with kicking in terms of liveness of application in aiki, let's look at you answer a bit more.

1) Maai means distance. Especially the distance of engagement. You never lose your maai, there is always a distance of engagement... maybe you mean you've lost the ideal aiki maai?

Anyway, this idea is also not very realistic. Maai should not dictate to you, nor should you only have one distance you can work from. You've already mentioned a shoulder throw (whatever that may be) and shihonage which works from a close distance, so you've already mentioned a distance which is perfectly within jabbing range.

2) You seem to be mystifying the concept of 'centre'. When the guy steps in to your ideal maai to close the distance you're trying to keep him at so he has a good range for a jab, his centre moves with him! It's part of his body. As for 'there's no forward projection of nage's centre' I take it you mean he is on posture? As in not overextended? Well, working with people from other arts (and practising them yourself) you shoudl know that mostly attackers don't overextend, and it's part of aiki to cause them to do so.

As a natural move, most attacks will withdraw the limb, and as you said, assuming they didn't nail you in first place you could then choose to blend with their withdrawal... but you would need to be proactive, and in that case, you may as well use preemptive timing; ie, atemi first... as you need to provoke some response. If you allow him to dictate timing you are losing another vital part of aiki awase.

3) Shihonage against a jab is frankly asking to get hit again. The jab's withdrawal is much faster than your whole body moving in and it will withdraw to a place where the hand is by the head and the elbow is just outside the shoulder and one of the most difficult positions to lead into shihonage, unless you're going to use brute force, and then: good luck.

These things should be kept in mind when practising against kicks or any other 'real' attacks too.

I've put my suggestions which I think are applicable to most real attacks including jabs and kicks in bold (hope it's not too obnoxious!):

maai is never lost and it is necessary for you to create the maai you will work from rather than let it be dictated to you; and then you can use your maai to provide fine tuning to getting your uke into overprojection which is often a subtle balance-reading move and not a huge swipe visible from a mile away; unless you preempt or lead effectively (which needs more than just 'backing away to regain your ideal maai' against a short-range attacker or a long range kicker who will both just chase you down faster than you can backpedal/wheel away) you will not be able to move your body faster than the strike or it's withdrawal.

Lyle Bogin
12-05-2005, 02:18 PM
So many kinds of kicks....

justinc
12-06-2005, 01:40 AM
Mat, lots of good questions, hopefully I answer all here. Firstly, why not much kicking done in general Aikido practice, well it would just then be Hapkido training. We do try to keep the arts somewhat separated in the way they go about training. For those of us that cross train, we mostly do so because the Aikido side offers a lot more work on the non-striking aspects of the art. To some extent we deliberately defocus any striking work so that we can spend more time on those other aspects - such as the basic blending and entering.

As for Ma'ai. Our definitions differ markedly. ma'ai to us is a specific distance range that is approximately mid range - between kicking and grappling range. The basic distance where if uke wants to strike you, they have to move to do so. Which leads to my next point.

Have you worked with a boxer before? A jab certainly does not move one's center. It's a short-sharp punch designed to set a person up for the real punch. Take a look at professional boxing some time and see when the center moves and with which punches. The good old haymaker or upper cut uses a lot of torso movement and to make them connect the whole body ends up moving, thus giving you a nice set of conditions to work with. A jab does none of these - it's almost all arm and shoulder only and doesn't, typically, fully extend the arm. I have no concept of what you're trying to express about center. But, a jab certainly does not move the attacker's center, in any way, shape or form, unlike the other circular punches. If their center is not moving, you have to make it move, which makes dealing with the attack a level of difficulty higher. (this is different to jabs as the person happens to be walking forward or doing the duck & weave). Someone standing there throwing just jabs at you is making no attempt to get closer to you, and for the best part can be ignored until the do something that either moves their center or over extends an arm.

As for catching and shihonage, that's actually one of the best techniques to use. As the strike goes out, you reach around the outside and behind the punch. As their arm withdraws, the catch pulls you in towards them and you're already in the process of turning away into a classic shihonage position. You're entirely using their energy of the withdraw action of the punch to move you into that position and execute the throw. That's what makes it work so well. They think you're trying to do something, so they naturally withdraw the arm even faster, giving you more energy to work with. Note that you don't try to catch the punch, but rather reach behind it and as it comes back it connects with your hand which then moves you.

As for your last statement. I strongly disagree. We do a lot of training in this sort of work in our Hapkido classes. There's a simple set of exercises you can do. put your hands in front of you up at chest level in something lie a fighting stance. Have someone throw fast punches at you and try to knock the hand away or grab the punch. It's impossible. Now, with the same exercise, reach out to place your wrist behind the punch, almost like you're try to slap the person in the face. You'll get this nine times out of ten and end up with a very solid connection to work with.

xuzen
12-06-2005, 01:54 AM
As for catching and shihonage, that's actually one of the best techniques to use. As the strike goes out, you reach around the outside and behind the punch. As their arm withdraws, the catch pulls you in towards them and you're already in the process of turning away into a classic shihonage position. You're entirely using their energy of the withdraw action of the punch to move you into that position and execute the throw. That's what makes it work so well. They think you're trying to do something, so they naturally withdraw the arm even faster, giving you more energy to work with. Note that you don't try to catch the punch, but rather reach behind it and as it comes back it connects with your hand which then moves you.


Kancho Shioda defeated an American GI boxer with shihonage. The detail is available in his book Aikido Shugyo. Personally I doubt he did shihonage as shown in our dojo, he probably did shihonage the jujutsu method.

Boon.

Mat Hill
12-06-2005, 06:18 AM
Firstly, why not much kicking done in general Aikido practice, well it would just then be Hapkido training. We do try to keep the arts somewhat separated in the way they go about training. For those of us that cross train, we mostly do so because the Aikido side offers a lot more work on the non-striking aspects of the art. To some extent we deliberately defocus any striking work so that we can spend more time on those other aspects - such as the basic blending and entering. Fine. The initial problem on the thread and the one to which Bratzo and I have been responding was about how much kicking you practise in your aiki... not your hapkido. You said you practised a little but people seemed to do it 'somewhat regularly' in randori. So I asked why it was that there was a discrepancy in the number of people who seemed to want to practise kicking in randori over the amount of time spent on kicking in the body of the technical class. Which you didn't answer, choosing instead to tell me that you liked to keep the arts separate and do not focus (I assume that's what you mean by 'defocus'!) on striking in aikido.

In case the question was too plain to understand: why is it people are practising kicks in randori but nobody practises in the technical body of the class?

And here's another question: how much time do you spend practising 'basic blending', how does your dojo practise 'basic blending' (just some exercise names will do here if you don't have time to go into detail) and how do you think 'basic blending' differs or is more important than eg, blending against a kick?

And here's a hint. I'm not being antagonistic, I'm genuinely interested, but I'm also not asking these questions because there is a large gap in my knowledge that I am seeking for you to fill: I'm asking these questions because I strongly suspect that you are arguing for the sake of it and your arguments are couched in vague inaccurate English!

I'm not testing you as I said, I'm genuinely interested in your point of view, in the interests of reaching consensus. I notice you took issue with my example of a boxing jab without actually really saying anything about kicking, so I'm also wondering rather about your position of authority whereby you've obviously trained with boxers.

As for Ma'ai. Our definitions differ markedly. ma'ai to us is a specific distance range that is approximately mid range - between kicking and grappling range. The basic distance where if uke wants to strike you, they have to move to do so. OK. You are using a quite commonly accepted definition of maai, meaning the ideal distance in which to engage uke. I have already pointed out that this distance varies according to the attack and the technique, and anyway you should be able to dictate maai and work from different maai when this is not possible.

I then stated that I do not believe this definition of maai to be realistic or useful.

I am using the definition of the word maai. Not a definition which is commonly and I think rather dangerously accepted at face value by many members of the aikido community: ie, your notional definition of some kind of ideal distance to work from. It is an ideal which works nicely in the dojo for beginners, but should probably be worked out of as soon as the beginner has a reasonable grasp of this concept.

My definition is somewhat literal, being from a dictionary, and being used by every Japanese martial arts sensei I've met here in this way: 間合い interval (between), distance (between), timing. If I look in the Japanese dictionary it says (my translation): 間合:何かをするのに適当な距離や時機。(The appropriate distance or opportunity in order to do something):剣道などで、相手との距離。(In kendo etc, the distance between opponents). The first part of this definition supports your notion of an ideal; I am sticking to my idea that ideals are just that, and rarely practical, in that ideals and 'appropriateness' are always opinion-based and not necessarily a good basis for reaching consensus on what should be perfectly scientifically explicable physical aspects of a martial art. So I'm going to stick with the kendo-based definition in the second part, which, as I said is the only way I've heard it used in many many dojos over here.

The definition: 'a specific distance range that is approximately mid range' is wrong. Well, maybe not wrong, but it's made up! Maybe it was made up by a Japanese sensei who was trying explain things simply for foreigners who were trying to mystify the concept, or maybe because it sounds good to have a 'one size fits all' maai. One size does not fit all! :D

The following illustrates perfectly another commonly held semantic misconception, which I've found all over the martial arts world: 'between kicking and grappling range'.

1) What is aikido? It's a grappling art. Again, if you want to be picky you can say, "It's throws and locks and pins," but basically that means grappling (look 'grapplin' up somewhere if you don't believe me!). So...

2) What is 'grappling range'? Well, my kotegaeshi goes from an outside kotegaeshi with a tenkan which covers the distance from one of each of mine and uke's hands being crossed to about two metres away where uke lands to a short entering kotegaeshi where I bend uke's wrist back into himself and hopefully he hits the floor before his wrist breaks or my elbow smashes into his nose and rakes down to take a rather late and difficult to breakfall from kuzushi into his solar plexus (I'm not a bad man! :D I'm just trying to explain just how close a close kotegaeshi gets if you keep your structure - a very close maai.) So that's one technique.

You could say the starting range has to be the same, but I can pull off the elbow smashing kotegaeshi from a retracting jab whereas the other needs some kind of lead or overextended strike in the first place.

3) What is 'kicking range'? I've sparred a hung gar champion in the UK who could close range with one of those movie flying kicks from a good 2.5 m. My shooto teacher and my old karate sempai can pull off devastingly quick head-height roundhouses from the length of my forearm away.

Have you worked with a boxer before?Every day. Look to where it says my dojo if you can't make it as far as my profile. My primary art is aikido. Altogether I have worked in an aiki framework in some way or another for 15 years. My secondary art is wing chun kung fu. For the last two years or so I've also been training shooto. In case you don't know, this is a combination of boxing for handwork, Thai for footwork, B/JJJ, American collegiate and Graeco-Roman wrestling for groundwork and takedowns. Plus I get a lot of opportunity to pressure-test my aiki principles and wing chun.

So yes, I work with a boxer every day, albeit not a very good one: me! And when I have time I work with other boxers and kickboxers three times a week. You?

I chose a jab as my example because I can do it very well, and have put people on their backsides with this simple technique alone.

OK, line by line :eek: :crazy: :A jab certainly does not move one's center.You were talking about your ideal maai being the distance when someone has to move to hit you. Clue: when somebody moves their centre moves with them. Your centre is part of your body, usually you can find it around... your centre! :D If they have to move to hit you, they are moving their centre, albeit surrounded by the rest of their body!

Notice I didn't say a jab moves your centre, I said that when someone moves in to jab you, they will move their centre.

It's a short-sharp punch designed to set a person up for the real punch.Not so. As I said, I myself have put people down with a jab and have seen pros do so too. Bear this in mind: the jab is an antenna, it's a feeler so I always put the pressure on you and I always know exactly where you are (and where your centre is). If you do not move, I can change my jab to make it a bit harder right at the end of my reach. Technically, you could call it a straight left at that point, but to me it's the same.

Again, the timing and distance of the jab can make all the difference between it being a dainty little number that'll just rock your head back on your scrawny little neck (please don't take this personally, I'm using the generic 'your'!), or a monster that'll get under your nose or between your eyes and'll have you waking up blowing snot bubbles in a couple of minutes' time.

Take a look at professional boxing some time and see when the center moves and with which punches.Take a look at your condescension sometime. This grandma isn't so bad at sucking eggs... and I suck at a few other things too! :o

The centre of a boxer moves every time he punches. Are you getting that point yet? Even if it's what we call a small circle or a spiral in Chinese MA or JJJ, the power generation from the hips is rolling the centre like a ball-bearing.

And that's assuming the boxer doesn't have to move to the target, which as you pointed out later is pretty rare.

The good old haymaker or upper cut uses a lot of torso movement and to make them connect the whole body ends up moving, thus giving you a nice set of conditions to work with.As I've said, the whole body will move if the striker has to move in to hit you; you said the same thing about your ideal maai. So what's your point here?
A jab does none of these - it's almost all arm and shoulder only and doesn't, typically, fully extend the arm.This is nonsense I'm afraid. No boxing strike is 'almost all arm and shoulder'.

A good boxer connects from the feet through the knees (my shooto instructor is always shouting at us to bend the knees, just as my aiki instructor, and my kendo instructor etc etc) through the hips and out through their fully extended arm with most strikes. In terms of body connection most boxers and kick boxers can demonstrate in one or two punches what most aiki people I've met only talk about a lot!

I have no concept of what you're trying to express about center.Sad, but true! Keep reading... the lines, the lines! Not between them!

But, a jab certainly does not move the attacker's center, in any way, shape or form, unlike the other circular punches. No punches 'move the attacker's centre'! Not the jab, not 'the other circular punches' whatever they are!

Again, I guess you are talking about overextension or offbalancing here by the expression 'moving the centre'...? Your centre is always moving! But the attacker is only overbalanced/overextended if they miss or make some mistake. And that is where the following comes in... If their center is not moving, you have to make it move, which makes dealing with the attack a level of difficulty higher....by which I take it you mean, 'If they are not overbalanced/overextended, you have to make them so...'? Which I agree with.

Again, like with the maai case, you are using some jargonish definition of 'centre' which is mystifying a simple physical concept; that of centre of balance. I'm a newbie to this board, so if there is a thread somewhere with a discussion of either maai or centre which looks at people's definitions of them and finally decides universally that the aiki community here has redefined either of these simple points please point me in the right direction so I can learn the language you are using!

Oops, sorry - that was being facetious! I'll stick with the simple definitions thanks! So, do you still not understand what I mean by 'centre' and how it relates to a moving body?!

So yes, we are finally agreed that if someone is on posture and not overextended you will have to move to extend them and this is difficult.

(this is different to jabs as the person happens to be walking forward Uh-oh, the honeymoon period is over! :D If a person is 'walking forwards' 'throwing just jabs at you' this is NOT different! They will still not be overextended! or doing the duck & weave).And what the hell is that - a dance?! :D Still, I don't get your point if you had one: they will STILL be not overextended! Someone standing there throwing just jabs at you is making no attempt to get closer to you, and for the best part can be ignored until the do something that either moves their center or over extends an arm.Why would someone just be standing there throwing just jabs at you ?! :rolleyes: They would be moving in to your nice safe ideal maai, not overextended in anyway, with a strong posture, trying to throw a jab into your poorly protected face! Which you cannot ignore! So as you say, that constitutes them moving their centre... into your space... and you will have to act to increase the maai to overextend them. That was precisely my point.

So, in the end, you cannot ignore jabs, anymore than you should be ignoring kicks in the dojo!

Your next supposition just backs up my presumption that you have not worked with anybody any good at jabbing. If you have someone giving a half-hearted jab because he doesn't want to knock your block off, you might be able to catch him out with a shihonage, but in a 'normal' situation it would have a very low (negligible) percentage of succeeding.

As for your last statement. I strongly disagree.What with?! My saying that you can't move your whole body faster than your attacker can move their hand? Your description of the hapkido exercise sounds interesting but doesn't seem to disagree in any way with what I've said... :sorry:

It sounds like a good exercise. Could you describe it a bit more clearly please?

Th-th-that's all folks! My final point, which is strangely the same as my first point, is that if you don't train against good full-speed mean nasty kicks you'll have the same problems as with Justin here with the jabs... a bunch of misconceptions from vague terminology and half-hearted attacks.

Many aikidoists say a lot of stupid things about kickers' balance; 'just step in - he'll fall over', 'just catch his leg - he'll fall over' etc. Kickers have good balance. They practise the simple move of a kick as many times as you practise your complicated series of moves that make up an aiki technique. You have to make them overextend and you can't do this unless you practise with them, preferably with them going full speed having set up their kick with some combination and following up with some other combination...

Mat Hill
12-06-2005, 06:22 AM
Kancho Shioda defeated an American GI boxer with shihonage. The detail is available in his book Aikido Shugyo. Personally I doubt he did shihonage as shown in our dojo, he probably did shihonage the jujutsu method.

Boon.Nice, I'll have to read that. Wonder what level the 'GI boxer' was...

I would guess that he wasn't catching jab but preempting with atemi or by moving in and offline before the boxer's attack was initiated or during an 'off-beat' in the boxer's attack.

Perhaps if you have more detail that's relevant to this thread you could include it, or start a new thread/PM me.

grondahl
12-06-2005, 07:04 AM
If I remember Aikido Shugyo correctly Shioda watched as a a pair of his students first got a beating by the boxer. Watching the boxer he understood that it would be very hard to catch the jab and instead did an irimi-movement to the inside as the boxer jabbed and took the boxers other hand and applied shihonage.

Ron Tisdale
12-06-2005, 10:40 AM
That would be correct except it was only one of his students the boxer took out. Good story, and supports one of my teacher's ideas of often looking to do waza off of the back hand. Often works well when the lead hand is jabbing, and the power punch comes from the back hand.

Best,
Ron

happysod
12-06-2005, 10:47 AM
often looking to do waza off of the back hand one of the few times when someone who punches sloppily and doesn't guard their head has an advantage - don't you just hate hunting for the other hand from those "attackers" who leave them flapping in the breeze?

James Davis
12-06-2005, 10:57 AM
one of the few times when someone who punches sloppily and doesn't guard their head has an advantage - don't you just hate hunting for the other hand from those "attackers" who leave them flapping in the breeze?
Smack 'em a couple times. They'll get it.

happysod
12-06-2005, 11:30 AM
Hey, I'm a fruity (or is that fruitie?), we're not allowed to use such physical means (shudders delicately), hasn't aikiweb taught you anything yet?

Ron Tisdale
12-06-2005, 11:55 AM
one of the few times when someone who punches sloppily and doesn't guard their head has an advantage - don't you just hate hunting for the other hand from those "attackers" who leave them flapping in the breeze?

Not really :) after a while it just kind of falls into place. Evade into their power side using atemi or a passing block, and the hand is usually just there. Often I'll evade/enter on the jabbing side first (safer 'cause it's away from the power hand), then as they turn one way or another that determines which hand to go for. At that distance you can't really look at the hand and then grab it...too slow. You kind of have to feel it in relation to the rest of their body, make contact at the shoulder, slide down and hook or grab briefly, off-balance and throw quickly.

You can even do kotegaeshi without grabbing in some circumstances, just hook with the ridge made between your wrist and your thumb if you spread your fingers widely. Because you're not grabbing people often don't have a clue as to how exactly you threw them. The problem with this particular version is you can't really take time to atemi, because you can't really base the hand you're hooking without grabbing. It's just movement, hook, movement throw...

Best,
Ron

justinc
12-06-2005, 12:25 PM
In case the question was too plain to understand: why is it people are practising kicks in randori but nobody practises in the technical body of the class?

Because we don't practice kicking in randori either. Nage still uses aikido techniques, but the attackers can and do throw in kicks to the mix. That's the difference between the two arts as we practice them. In free practice in Hapkido, both sides use kicking and striking, in aikido, only the attackers do. Those of us that are more proficient in kicking will throw in pretty much everything as the attacker- ground and jumping spinning kicks etc. We don't just leave it as a basic front, round and side kicks.



And here's another question: how much time do you spend practising 'basic blending', how does your dojo practise 'basic blending' (just some exercise names will do here if you don't have time to go into detail) and how do you think 'basic blending' differs or is more important than eg, blending against a kick?


Now you're just being silly by picking on words rather than understanding meaning. We're talking about exercises that are not striking practice. There's no standing in horse stance doing 500 punches in our aikido practice. :D


I'm asking these questions because I strongly suspect that you are arguing for the sake of it and your arguments are couched in vague inaccurate English!


This board is not like that at all. English is vague and inaccurate by definition! (if only english was logical and straight forward, just like programming!) :p Everyone here shares their point of view in non antagonistic ways. Aikido is such a wide and diverse set of training methods that there are always people that have trained in a different way to what you have done. We all like to put out stuff that is along the lines of "hey, here's what we do and you should take a look at such and such for a good idea about X". There's no malice that you seem to want to project into my thoughts and expressions.


1) What is aikido? It's a grappling art. Again, if you want to be picky you can say, "It's throws and locks and pins," but basically that means grappling (look 'grapplin' up somewhere if you don't believe me!). So...


That seems to be really stretching the definition of "grappling art" and certainly not one that I see used to describe Aikido. Close body on body contact and large amounts of ground work are the distinguishing factors for grappling arts. Aikido generally tries to stay further away from the body than that. Grappling arts in the commonly accepted terms are the various jujitsus, judo and various forms of wrestling.


2) What is 'grappling range'?


Inside the range where effective strikes with either hand or foot can take place. Typical distance is less than a foot away when face to face. As for your friend reaching a couple of metres with kicks, yes, that's pretty normal. I'm tall (192cm) so just a standing side kick with no body movement I can cover almost 1.5m alone. Stepping or skipping in side or front kick are some of my favourite opening techniques in TKD sparring matches. I can be across the other side of the square landing a kick before my partner knows what has happened :)

Why would someone just be standing there throwing just jabs at you ?!

Not spent too much time in seedy bars I see :P Not that this has anything to do with boxers, but more the "drunken boxing" bar fight scenario.

As for the rest, it seems Mat, you are just trying to be picky for the sake of it, making associations with my words that are just not there. There's no point discussing those as you are so sure that only you have the right opinion because you're reading the literal word rather than the meanings. Since this thread is about kicking, I'm ignoring the rest of the jab bits. I only commented initially on the jab bits because, like kicking, aikido people don't work with boxers much and I've had quite a bit of experience with both sides of the equation. Just wanted to add some observations there about what we do in our training for that precise scenario and that the things people think are impossible are not really. I'll sit down and shut up now.

xuzen
12-06-2005, 11:07 PM
Nice, I'll have to read that. Wonder what level the 'GI boxer' was...

I would guess that he wasn't catching jab but preempting with atemi or by moving in and offline before the boxer's attack was initiated or during an 'off-beat' in the boxer's attack.

Perhaps if you have more detail that's relevant to this thread you could include it, or start a new thread/PM me.

Level or skill of boxer = not known, not stated. Probably amateur boxer in the army.

Detail of the technique = As the boxer jab with his left hand, Kancho Shioda moved to grab the boxer's right and, spun around in tenkan fashion and performed shihonage. The GI boxer was caught completely by surprised and ended up with a dislocated elbow.

Many people forget, surprise is a very powerful element. It is easy to say aikido is like this or is like that. Try doing aikido in jiyu waza manner with out pre-arranged sequence and you will see what I mean.

With regards to kick,
1) front kick, respond with shomen-ate or gyaku-aigamae-ate
2) round house, respond with aigamae-ate or ushiro-ate
3) Spinning-kick, respond with kokyu-nage or ushiro-ate
4) front knee hits ala Muay Thai, respond with shomen-ate or aigamae-ate
I personally will go for the neck and control it, and you will control the person. You will also realized that all the above counters are done using the atemi type technique, because they are short, sharp and found to be high probability techniques.

Some posters claim that kickers have good balance, if that is the case, then make them lose it. I personally have found out that the neck is a good place to control the balance of a kicker.

Boon.

happysod
12-07-2005, 03:49 AM
Hi Ron, ok, I was speaking in jest, but it was also a reference to set combos where a specific technique on the second hand is being practiced. While I agree you can't expect to look at the position of the second hand during off-hand techniques, several options just become silly if the power hand is waving in the breeze, forcing you to use more gross movements to effect the technique - I think you'd agree this is not an efficient or sensible thing to do with combo attacks.

If you're going freeform and the power hand isn't there, I prefer the upper torso/head for my target area anyway.

Boon, re take their balance on the kick - agree with you up to a point, but the problems in achieving this with an experienced kicker are great, especially if they keep to the low kicks or use short knee jabs when in close.

Josh Reyer
12-07-2005, 10:26 AM
Boon, re take their balance on the kick - agree with you up to a point, but the problems in achieving this with an experienced kicker are great, especially if they keep to the low kicks or use short knee jabs when in close.

But surely the best kicker in the world would not have better balance than the best puncher in the world standing on two feet? Which is not to say that kickers should be underestimated (taking their balance may be just as difficult as taking the balance of a puncher), but if I may capriciously put words in Boon's mouth, I believe he's suggesting that the core principles of aikido do not change when dealing with a kicker.

happysod
12-07-2005, 10:50 AM
Agreed, but the distances involved differ enough that standard methods of closing the distance become more problematical. Kicks I'd place more as starting at bokken distances than empty hand, with the additional complication that if the kicker knows how to use their knees well for close in work, you have a nice flexible weapon to deal with.

Ron Tisdale
12-07-2005, 01:33 PM
Hi Ian. Agreed on both counts. Especially using the head!

Best,
Ron

Joe Jutsu
12-07-2005, 11:50 PM
FWIW-

I literally just got through my ikkyu exam. With the exception of the randori, which was not up to (my) standards, I think it went pretty well. The keri waza, ironically enough, went really well. The techniques finally felt smooth, and and at times almost effortless. I think we may have gotten them on video (hopefully) and if so I'll try to get them posted on our college club site. I'd appreciate any links that any of you have to videos of keri waza techniques, and I'll post the link if we get those techniques up on the web. Again, I'd love to see some more links to videos of throws to kicks, especially if they include pins after the throw.

I'm also trying to understand why people claim that these techniques are too dangerous to train. Specifically, could anybody elaborate upon this argument for me? Thanks


-Joe

xuzen
12-07-2005, 11:53 PM
Boon, re take their balance on the kick - agree with you up to a point, but the problems in achieving this with an experienced kicker are great, especially if they keep to the low kicks or use short knee jabs when in close.

Ian,
A skill person in anything will definitely make the counter difficult, it is a universal law.

Try these drills and see how well they work out, OK.

1) To work on counter to knee jabs. Start with clinch. Don't look at your opponents' knee, look at his eyes or even close your eyes. Feel his body movement or shift. when you feel his balance shift, move your body (tai-sabaki) and apply principle of kuzushi. For example, your partner lifts up his right knee at you aiming your lower abdomen, shift your hips slightly either to the right or left and unbalance him just as his power begin to surge, nipping at the bud I would call it.. Sure you may get hit sometimes, but in training always start slow.

2) A low kick jab is a very logical application of kick. It is straight forward, almost unseen and very fast. Again, you have to look at his body balance shift. When someone wants to kick, he will/must shift his balance to the leg which will support the kicking leg. By watching his body shift, you can prepare/know which leg will be doing the kick. A straight leg jab is limited by the length of the kicker's leg and its recoil time. Shift your body movement to avoid the initial kick, and when he is recoiling, enter and apply the atemi-waza type tech with proper application of kuzushi.

I try my best to put my application to words, if it is not clear, I apologize as it very difficult to transform the action into words.

I have tried these principles on my fellow dojo mates and so far they work, but I have no Olympic TKD kicker nor Pro-Muay Thai fighter at my dojo to work on, so I will only say this work as far as general MArtist are concern.

Boon.

happysod
12-08-2005, 07:36 AM
Boon, may I just say how nice it as not to hear "use the X block" or "get off the line and scoop" - I'll happily try (1), (2) I'm more skeptical on as the body shift is not that great, but willing to give it a go at some point.

Ron Tisdale
12-08-2005, 08:07 AM
I'm also trying to understand why people claim that these techniques are too dangerous to train. Specifically, could anybody elaborate upon this argument for me? Thanks

I don't think it's so much a problem for low kicks...uke tends not be as off-balance-able (word?) from those attacks...which is why they are so dangerous. From mid level to high kicks however, my experience is that if it is not a flick kick, but a power kick, and I enter strongly, and even just turn...it makes for a messy ukemi for uke. I mistakenly showed this enter and turn method to some newbies recently...the uke was completely off-balanced, did what for him was a pretty good recovery into ukemi, but never really put any energy into the lead hand for his front roll, and collapsed. Ouch. Got slapped by a san-dan for that one. ;)

Yoshinkan uses a lot of direct entry with the elbow (sokomen irimi ni) for these kinds of things...the power of a good kick can make you enter pretty forcefully...which can lead to your elbow doing a little more damage than you intend. That, combined with the fact that if someone's leg is in mid-air, and you throw strongly, their head goes right to the mat. If uke's ukemi is instinctual, no problem usually, but if not...concussion city. Concussions aren't the worst of it though. Some people turn out of the throw naturally and try to front roll/breakfall. If events get ahead of them, I've seen people dislocate/separate their shoulder and even break their collar bone on batched front rolls.

By the by...x blocks are for wussies (just kidding), and I almost never bother with scooping, I want in and throw, down, hard. Scooping takes too much time in my opinion, and provides a base for a leg up knee or foot to the head (not kidding).

Best,
Ron (Of course this all assumes shite can pull it off...no doubt, there are good kickers who will pop me at least 5 out of 10 tries. But then, I'm not looking to compete in a ring against professionals.)

xuzen
12-08-2005, 08:14 PM
Boon, may I just say how nice it as not to hear "use the X block" or "get off the line and scoop" - I'll happily try (1), (2) I'm more skeptical on as the body shift is not that great, but willing to give it a go at some point.

Ian,

What is a X-block?

As for the "get off the line and scoop", you can try that if it is a high level kick or if the kick is a round-house type where you can see the trajectory clearly. For a front low kick, it is quite difficult to apply successfully. Just scooping alone will not be sufficient, it should also include an atemi-waza type application e.g., gyakugamae-ate (sokumen irimi-nage)

Boon.

PeterR
12-08-2005, 10:32 PM
Hey Boon;

Gyakugamae-ate is good but Shomen-ate from the inside is better - mainly because of the ability to penetrate with the leading hand and effect a double kuzushi so to speak.

happysod
12-09-2005, 03:42 AM
Hi Boon, the X block is with the arms crossed at the wrists or forearms normally projected at a downward angle for kicks and much beloved of several ma I've seen - arms vs shin... nice

Peter's already covered my objection to the scoop as I've more often seen it demonstrated with a movement away from the kick or an overly elaborate turn which would be impractical with a fast kick which is then drawn back for the next attack, more like a jab. Many demonstration purposes seem to leave the kicker suspended on one foot while nage does some beautiful move - meh.

Budd
12-09-2005, 08:54 AM
One point in favor of scoops -- if you scoop as you irimi and sink (versus something like Mae-geri, a front kick or push kick), uke will fall down and go boom, hard.

James Davis
12-09-2005, 10:55 AM
One point in favor of scoops -- if you scoop as you irimi and sink (versus something like Mae-geri, a front kick or push kick), uke will fall down and go boom, hard.
Yeah. Been there.

xuzen
12-09-2005, 08:51 PM
Hi Boon, the X block is with the arms crossed at the wrists or forearms normally projected at a downward angle for kicks and much beloved of several ma I've seen - arms vs shin... nice.
Oh I see. My dojo has never taught us this block before... so I don't know about it, sorry. However, we use the X block for a different purpose... nami-juji-jime (http://web1.vattnet.com/judo/katamewaza/namijujijime.html)

Ian, one word of advice regarding the drill I mentioned earlier, go slow if the uke is naive towards this type of drill, yesterday I sprain a nidan's ankle while doing this. The fall can be very abrupt and heavy.

Boon.

Mark Stokmans
09-09-2008, 04:22 AM
Hello, I am making my first posting on AikiWeb forum on a very old thread. Please excuse me if that is not the way to go. The reason for this however is that the subject (Aikido and kick) of this thread is something I have been working on for the past three years. This work and research was very interesting and has led to writing of a book concerning this very interesting subject which will probably be published in october 2008

The opinions expressed in this thread are not very different from the others I have encountered during my internet research into this subject. There are a number of things which I have found in the past years which I would welcome any reaction to:


I have found no Aikikai Aikido dojo's incorporating Keri-waza in their curriculum as a fixed part of aikido training. I am still curious if there are any schools around which do have that;
Ukemi is not al that difficult. In dealing with Keri-waza we have made a division in three ways of dealing with a kick (before applying technique): Te-waza (parrying with the hands), Ashi-waza (parrying with your own legs) and Ashi-dori (catching the leg) Only in Ashi Dori does ukemi really change. And it is just a question of training.
Regular Aikido training does not prepare one automatically for Keri-waza training. The similarities between regular aikido attacks and Keri-waza are not enough.
The techniques applied to Keri-waza are essentially the same as regular techniques.


By training in Keri-waza uke and tori become more complete budoka. I believe that we should training Keri-waza in a structured way. And I have learned (and recorded that in the book) that it is not that difficult to find a good way to train these techniques.

If anyone has an opinion on any part of my posting I would welcome hearing from you.

Mark

Carsten Möllering
09-09-2008, 05:59 AM
Hi,

Christian Tissier Shihan ist teaching aikido techniques against keri-waza on a regular base.

With his 2 DVDs showing his kihon waza he also has published a third one which is called "variations et applications" and shows those techniques and their connections to the "regular" techniques.
You can see a kind of trailer here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYBn10LaL_g&feature=related)

We are doing techniques against keri waza. Not often, but regularly.

Carsten

Randy Sexton
09-09-2008, 08:10 AM
As a 3rd degree in Tae Kwon Do I can tell you a well placed kick can be devastating. However, I believe as an Aikidoka that we should learn how to perform a well placed low and middle height front and side kick but leave the spinning stuff alone unless you have the time to invest. Spinning kicks are extremely powerful, but difficult to control, and easy to take down if you are a well trained Aikidoka. THAT is the weakness in kicking and the strength of Aikido. The kick is a single point of balance with the body in motion and that precarious position is exactly where I want my attacker to be in so I can take his balance and perform my technique.
In taking Ukemi the kick and response must be slow and I would recommend only those who have some experience should be doing it. I cringe when even my Sensei uses me to demonstrate kick defense because one little mistake can be damaging. A fall from waist high straight down onto your hip with the person hanging onto your leg is not where you want to be. Therefore, emphasize letting the person's leg go and Uke should go for the roll not the drop!!
IMHO
Doc

lbb
09-09-2008, 08:35 AM
Besides the challenging ukemi, one reason not to spend a lot of time training against kicks is that very few people can do them competently. Ever see a fight where someone tried to kick? It's funny. It's a lot easier to learn effective hand techniques than it is to learn effective kicks, and untrained people trying to kick are really quite ineffective.

I'd love to try some kicking ukemi -- I trained in TKD and shotokan. Maybe I'll ask Sensei to help me with that. Lots of carnage potential as Doc says.

Mark Stokmans
09-09-2008, 08:51 AM
Dear Mary and Randy, thanks four your responses. Certainly from TKD and Karate aficionados input is welcome.

@ Randy: I think that, as far as ukemi is concerned, it is question of getting used to new forms (as in any ukemi form). "My" regular uke's have gotten so used to the forms that ukemi is no problem. So training is very fluent actually. When teaching to newcomers we take it step by step: just like training regular Aikido. In our research we have limited ourselves to basic Mae-geri en Mawashi-geri (middle and low). No spinning anything. K.I.S.S. so to speak.

@Mary: one reason not to spend a lot of time training against kicks is that very few people can do them competently I would say that is exactly the reason we should spend time on training against kicks. It is a basic attack form, it is one of the basic human weapons which can be used very effectively. I have been in fights were people tried to kick and I didn't experience it as being particularly funny. Legs have larger impact and longer reach, it is actually easier to hit people with a kick and do damage to them without hurting yourself. I would say a good side lowkick is much easier than a hook punch. (I must add that in Europe we play soccer a lot so a lot of the street bullies one would encounter now how to kick). But the fact that street bullies kick or not is not actually the issue. The issue (to me) is that a kick is such a logical form of attack (much more logical than ushiro kata dori or any of the many grabbing forms of attack we practice) that I think if we consider Aikido to be a martial art, we should train at this basic form of attack as well.

Once again, thanks for your replies!

Mark

DonMagee
09-09-2008, 10:35 AM
"Why don't we train techniques against kicks?"

Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.

Why did anyone train with this guy? He was arrogant jerk.

Mark Stokmans
09-09-2008, 12:10 PM
So we should actually stop wearing hakama's is that what you are trying to say? ;)

And by the by: how do you manage to break your hip from falling due to your hakama being stepped on? That must have been the worst uke ever! :uch:

On a more serious note: There are a number of silly anecdotes flying around that are used to ridicule and disqualify certain aspects of training like Keri-waza. If people choose to use them to close their minds and hide behind this supposed O Sensei wisdom, them that is of course their choice.

NagaBaba
09-09-2008, 03:23 PM
Ukemi is not al that difficult.
Mark

Communication on internet is not easy, we know other person only from what they are writing.

From your post I think you don't know how to kick. And also, you've never experienced correct kick. Otherwise you would never write such bizarre things like 'parrying with the hands' or 'catching the leg' - ask 3rd dan TKD to attack you and try to catch his leg LOL!!!!!!!. :) :) :) You are dreaming my friend............

I agree 100% with Randy - looks like he knows what he is talking about.

Ukemi after kick is very difficult. Nage doesn't have much control to help uke fall down. That happens for many reasons:
1. Because the distance is rather big, irimi must be very deep and entry very fast - nage simply doesn't have time to take care of uke later.
2. if timing is rihgt, uke falls down in the moment of contact - as with kick there is not much contact, nage can't help uke execute safe fall.
3. Techniques against kick are very direct and linear - for reason not to create too much opening for counter. So once the attacks become difficult, uke must have really excellent gymnastic skills to safely fall down - there is not place at all to turn hips in preparation to land. It is very easy to injure head or shoulder by yourself.

For sure, ukemi skills can be built to deal with those issues, but it takes a lot of time.

Carsten Möllering
09-09-2008, 03:57 PM
Ukemi after kick is very difficult. Nage doesn't have much control to help uke fall down.
Why does nage have to help uke to fall down? I recall you wrote interesting things about the ukemi of Tissier senseis ukes.

I hate ukemi after kicking. But that is only my problem. Not the problem of nage. So what are you talking about?

Carsten

lbb
09-09-2008, 04:10 PM
D
@Mary: I would say that is exactly the reason we should spend time on training against kicks.

Why would you spend time training against a type of attack that you're very unlikely to encounter except as an incompetent and ineffective execution? Oh, I've seen plenty of people try to use them in a fight; hey, they've seen the chop sockey flicks too, they know that when you get in a fight you're supposed to kick. In reality, though, what you'll see is something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-DT_8y7rJM).

"You want me to show you tough? I'll show you tough." :freaky:

grondahl
09-09-2008, 04:33 PM
Have you seen a lot of well executed shomen uchi, yokomen uchi or maybe ushiro ryote dori-attacks during the street fights?

Why would you spend time training against a type of attack that you're very unlikely to encounter except as an incompetent and ineffective execution?

Chris Li
09-09-2008, 06:27 PM
From your post I think you don't know how to kick. And also, you've never experienced correct kick. Otherwise you would never write such bizarre things like 'parrying with the hands' or 'catching the leg' - ask 3rd dan TKD to attack you and try to catch his leg LOL!!!!!!!. :) :) :) You are dreaming my friend............

Here's an example of a knockout from a leg catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snZ9x9ibf2I

In my Karate days leg catches were a standard sparring technique - especially because kicks often don't come out as cleanly in sparring as they look in kata.

Best,

Chris

Mark Stokmans
09-10-2008, 02:01 AM
The sceptisime towards kicks that can be read in a number of previous posts is not new to me. There is a matter of hypocrisy in them though. First of all a lot of times people, when talking about kicks immidiately bring in the presumed impossiblity of doing anything with a kick by an experianced kicker. However these individuals do not do the same thing when talking about tsuki or shomen uchi or lapel grabs. Keri waza in my opinion is not about Aikido vs anything else. It is about an attack that we do not include in Aikido.

@ Szczepan: Thank you for your feedback, though nuance would not be misplaced. No I have not experiance 3rd Tae Kwondo kick. I have experianced Muay Thai kicks though, karate kicks and have competed in Jiu-jitsu Fighting system matches. The bizarre things I write might seem less bizar when you actually open your mind to try to understand what is meant by them. Don't Muay Thai fighters parry with the legs?

@ Mary: With all due respect, in fighting kicks are used. Denying that to me is just plain....unwise. And once more, it is beside the point. Like grondhal wrote, how often do you see a double handed wrist grab in a streetfight? And yet we practice it in Aikido.

And as far as injuries: in the three years we have been practicing there has not been a single injury...and I have taught these things even to beginners. Perhaps you have never been taught well or your ukemi is nog that good.;)

But now it seems as if I am carrying the gospel of Keri-waza. If people are not interested so be it. From experiance I know that training Keri-waza makes a lot of sense.

Stefan Stenudd
09-10-2008, 03:05 AM
I have found no Aikikai Aikido dojo's incorporating Keri-waza in their curriculum as a fixed part of aikido training. I am still curious if there are any schools around which do have that;
Ukemi is not al that difficult. In dealing with Keri-waza we have made a division in three ways of dealing with a kick (before applying technique): Te-waza (parrying with the hands), Ashi-waza (parrying with your own legs) and Ashi-dori (catching the leg) Only in Ashi Dori does ukemi really change. And it is just a question of training.
Regular Aikido training does not prepare one automatically for Keri-waza training. The similarities between regular aikido attacks and Keri-waza are not enough.
The techniques applied to Keri-waza are essentially the same as regular techniques.

Good luck with your book. A good theme for it, absolutely.
My two cents:

In my dojo we include kicks - both defense against them, and some basic practice of them. Not that very frequently, though. There's so much to train in aikido...

As for parrying, I prefer to stress the taisabaki evasive movement, so that a parry will not be that necessary.

Of course, only practicing against kicks gives you real experience with it. On the other hand, I find that the regular aikido principles apply just the same. No difference. Still, it needs to be experienced and practiced - so that the students trust the regular aikido movements enough to do them also when confronted with kicks.

And yes, I agree with you that the aikido techniques applied are quite the same in keriwaza as on other attack forms. For reasons of positions and such, though, some aikido techniques may get more awkward and difficult than others.
I made a system of attacks and techniques on my website, where a few of the basic kicks are included. There, I noted how basic or advanced I regard the techniques to be against those kicks:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikidobasics-tachiwaza-mae.htm

Learning to kick decently takes significantly longer than learning to grab or strike. In the grand aikido curriculum there is just no time to learn everything equally well. Therefore, in my dojo I limit it to maegeri (front kick) and mawashigeri (roundhouse kick), and the latter only on chudan level. That's also what I limit it to, in my book about attacks in aikido.

A dojo with other priorities would certainly find time to learn sidekicks, spin kicks, jodan mawashigeri, and so on. But to find that time, they would need to exclude something else - or at least touch it briefer than other dojos do.

Mark Stokmans
09-10-2008, 03:18 AM
Dear Stefan,

Thank you for your email. It is good to hear that you take the Keri-waza seriously.
As for parrying, I prefer to stress the taisabaki evasive movement, so that a parry will not be that necessary. Perhaps my use of the word parrying is cause for confusion. What I mean is not a block. It is very much a combination of taisabaki and tesabaki. On my weblog (http://aikiblog.web-log.nl) there are a few clips. Please take into account they are training clips, no demo, no real speed anything. Just basic training of forms. You will see a combination of taisabaki and tesabaki.

As for the basics: at the moment we are only studying Mae-geri and mawashi-geri because we are at the beginning of research and these to me are basic attacks. Any more exotic attacks are not basic. Its just a choice.

As for the vast aikido curriculum, I completely agree. It is a matter of how you prioritize in training.

Once again thank you for your reply.

Mark

DonMagee
09-10-2008, 07:22 AM
This guy advocates kick catching and kicks VERY hard.

http://ballhype.com/video/fight_science_mma_bas_rutten_kicks_a_crash_test_dummy/

NagaBaba
09-10-2008, 09:44 AM
Why does nage have to help uke to fall down? I recall you wrote interesting things about the ukemi of Tissier senseis ukes.

I hate ukemi after kicking. But that is only my problem. Not the problem of nage. So what are you talking about?

Carsten
Hi Carsten,
Hope you are doing well.
Well, in aikido nage takes care about attacker. That is why the aikido techniques have full of openenings and in the end we are throwing attacker gently out or trying to lock him down, also gently, instead of breaking his bones LOL You remember famous old saying from Himalaya : 'Love and Harmony with Univers' ? :D

So generally speaking, nage is trying to injure an attacker as less as possible. In a dojo set up, when attacker is cooperating, this principle is particularly reinforced. That is the only reason why the practice can be safe, as we don't have any security rules as in sport combats.

Ukes role it to protect himself with all his capacities, but if nage has bad will , uke can't take ukemi safely.

Is it answer your questions?

NagaBaba
09-10-2008, 09:57 AM
Here's an example of a knockout from a leg catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snZ9x9ibf2I

In my Karate days leg catches were a standard sparring technique - especially because kicks often don't come out as cleanly in sparring as they look in kata.

Best,

Chris
Hi Chris,
Nice video. from such situation of course it is posiible,the kick was from close distans, slow and very weak.

However the set up of attack is not the same as in aikido practice. Normally we have one single attack from much longer distance. It allows attacker to generate a lot of speed and power.In such conditions, if nage is concetrated to catch a leg(instead of deep irimi to make distance shorter and attack directly the center of attacker), for sure he will get severly hit.

So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg :rolleyes: :confused:

NagaBaba
09-10-2008, 10:25 AM
Keri waza in my opinion is not about Aikido vs anything else. It is about an attack that we do not include in Aikido.
The statement is quite shocking to me. May be you don't include it in your aikido. But in the world, there are very many teachers, where kicks are done more often then your famous 'grab my wrist' attack.


@ Szczepan: Thank you for your feedback, though nuance would not be misplaced. No I have not experiance 3rd Tae Kwondo kick. I have experianced Muay Thai kicks though, karate kicks and have competed in Jiu-jitsu Fighting system matches. The bizarre things I write might seem less bizar when you actually open your mind to try to understand what is meant by them. Don't Muay Thai fighters parry with the legs?
Of course they do, but they have very special training to reinforce their legs, particularly shin. This process is long and very painful (they use baseball bat to do it... :cool: ). You must kill completely the sensitivity of this part of your leg.

Other sort of parrying is done by receiving a kick with bended inside knee.

Personally I doubt VERY much this two methods can be used successfully with aikido techniques. I don't see how you will create a momentum that will put off balance attacker by stopping dead his kick like that....Other thing is, how may aikidoka in the world will effectively reinforce a shin to be able to receive sever kick?

MT fighter also have special parry with their hands, but it is effective against the kick from very close distance and mostly with knee kick. I don't think such distance is right for aikido techniques.

Chris Li
09-10-2008, 11:25 AM
Hi Chris,
Nice video. from such situation of course it is posiible,the kick was from close distans, slow and very weak.

However the set up of attack is not the same as in aikido practice. Normally we have one single attack from much longer distance. It allows attacker to generate a lot of speed and power.In such conditions, if nage is concetrated to catch a leg(instead of deep irimi to make distance shorter and attack directly the center of attacker), for sure he will get severly hit.

So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg :rolleyes: :confused:

Well of course, if you set up the attack to put the defender at a disadvantage then you will have a problem - the same one you might have with any other striking attack.

However, if you are able to make a deep irimi to make the distance shorter there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get close enough to catch the leg effectively, it happens in MMA and Karate sparring all the time.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
09-10-2008, 03:31 PM
kicks, like any other attacks, have their strength and weakness, i.e. area of effectiveness. it's good to practice kicks with aikido from the point of understanding such area of weaknesses.

consider this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY6DQmRC_Dg
whenever you see a person close enough for a leg sweep, you are close enough for an aikido technique of some sort. from the point of understanding kick attacks, consider that folks who know how to kick don't just throw a single kick, usually a strike or two follow very close behind the kick. the range of effectiveness of kicks is closer than you think, i.e. maai. also, the most effective kicks tend to come very low and I would consider leg sweeps are kicks. It's fun to learn how to deal with kicks in aikido, as in everything else.

xuzen
09-11-2008, 12:12 AM
TKD KICK LOL!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KqUHQzyHFs)

Boon.

Mark Stokmans
09-11-2008, 01:23 AM
Szczepan: Concerning the MMT kicks. I know of them, as I said I have trained with them. At least I am happy you realise that it is possible to parry with your legs. As I explained to Stefan, it is a question of combination of movements. Of taisabaki and parrying, as is anything in Aikido. Learning from other MA's.

The statement is quite shocking to me. May be you don't include it in your aikido. But in the world, there are very many teachers, where kicks are done more often then your famous 'grab my wrist' attack. To me this is great. I have actually run into none in my country. Only over the internet have I heard some people mention they do include Keri-waza. My point by the way is not only that you should (at times) do "seomthing" with keri, but that it should be just as basic a form as shomen uchi or whatever.

Personally I doubt VERY much this two methods can be used successfully with aikido techniques. I don't see how you will create a momentum that will put off balance attacker by stopping dead his kick like that.... Well if you are really curious, get the book :D (*shamelessly advertises his commercial product) :D

So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg What I always emphasize in Keri-waza training is that catching the leg is not the goal in dealing with a kick, it is a possibilty. If the situation occurs that you can catch it, you are in a very strong position to control uke.

@ phitruong: The most important thing to me in training with Keri is in effect understanding the new ma-ai. The energy, the distance the speed, and then handling this limb that we don't always understand the anatomical possibilities of. It is a lot of fun and educational.

Once again thank you for your replies.

Mark

lbb
09-11-2008, 09:10 AM
@ Mary: With all due respect, in fighting kicks are used. Denying that to me is just plain....unwise.{/quote]

"Unwise", how? Are you going to come to my house and piss on my lawn? Jeez, how do people make statements like this and claim they're making them "with all due respect"?

I stand by my statement. You're very unlikely to see a competently-executed kick in a so-called "street fight". For that matter, you'll see a lot of inept punches, too -- but it's easier to develop and execute an effective punch than it is to develop and execute an effective kick.

[QUOTE=Mark Stokmans;215824]But now it seems as if I am carrying the gospel of Keri-waza. If people are not interested so be it. .

Who said people weren't interested in it? All I said was that the justification for training against kicks shouldn't rest on the likelihood of encountering an effective kick in a self-defense situation. So what? I typically spend a couple of hours doing weapons training; what's the likelihood of my ever being attacked with a sword?

Demetrio Cereijo
09-11-2008, 09:35 AM
So IMO from pedagogical point of view, it is a mistake to encourage students to catch attacking leg :rolleyes: :confused:

Sanda/Sanshou guys have no problem with that, and they are hard hitters.

Some examples here: http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-7091005963756310113 (http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-7091005963756310113&hl=es)

lbb
09-11-2008, 10:25 AM
Sanda/Sanshou guys have no problem with that, and they are hard hitters.

I think you miss the point. It's an often-repeated bit of martial arts foolishness that if someone tries to kick you, all you have to do is "catch the leg" or "trap the leg". That's a bit like saying that if someone throws you through the air, "all you have to do" is roll. It's all well and good...IF you've been taught how, IF you've trained for it (against someone who's doing it competently, with speed and force), and IF you've taken several sets of lumps getting there. You're not going to simply go from the theory of "just catch the leg" into being able to do it competently the first time you try, and if the first time you try is against a competent kicker who's really trying to kick you, you'll get painfully schooled.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-11-2008, 12:19 PM
I think you miss the point. It's an often-repeated bit of martial arts foolishness that if someone tries to kick you, all you have to do is "catch the leg" or "trap the leg".

Never heard that in years of martial arts training (read my profile, please) and competing most of them in striking based alive arts. Catching the leg is something you can do if you train for it, you know how to set it or if the ocasion arises and you're able to react on time.

Catching the leg is one of many options available.

You're not going to simply go from the theory of "just catch the leg" into being able to do it competently the first time you try, and if the first time you try is against a competent kicker who's really trying to kick you, you'll get painfully schooled.

That's why things like sparring and healthy competition were developed. To be schooled in the mat to avoid being schooled in the street.

DonMagee
09-11-2008, 12:24 PM
I think you miss the point. It's an often-repeated bit of martial arts foolishness that if someone tries to kick you, all you have to do is "catch the leg" or "trap the leg". That's a bit like saying that if someone throws you through the air, "all you have to do" is roll. It's all well and good...IF you've been taught how, IF you've trained for it (against someone who's doing it competently, with speed and force), and IF you've taken several sets of lumps getting there. You're not going to simply go from the theory of "just catch the leg" into being able to do it competently the first time you try, and if the first time you try is against a competent kicker who's really trying to kick you, you'll get painfully schooled.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think people were advocating training for catching the kick, not just saying "Oh just catch the kick". But it takes about 15 minutes to teach the basics of minimizing the impact and catching a kick. Then it takes a good while actually using the technique against people really trying to hit you before you can do it reliably. Maybe about 3 months.

I recently taught my friend this technique over drinks. He has no martial arts background at all. He started training bjj with me about 2 days prior to this lesson. A TKD friend of his wanted to 'spar' with him after a few beers. The guy executed a round kick, he stepped inside like I taught him, caught the leg, executed the torque and swept the standing foot, just like I taught him. Then he held the guy down with the 1 pin he had been taught until he gave up.

That was 3 days of martial arts training vs a retired black belt in TKD.

*Edit* - This is not a comment on the effectiveness of bjj. This is a comment on how simple movements can be taught very quickly and employed almost immediately when trained properly.

Mark Stokmans
09-11-2008, 01:04 PM
"Unwise", how? Are you going to come to my house and piss on my lawn? Jeez, how do people make statements like this and claim they're making them "with all due respect"?
Wow, I really didn't see that one coming. I had no idea (let alone intention) of insulting you. I do apologize sincerely if I did. I was only expressing an opinion based on my own experiance in what some people like to call "the street" and my knowlegde of competitive fighting sports were kicks are done well and used very effectively. I must add though that I do think your reaction is a bit over the top. I can actually respect your opinion but disagree with it and state that it is not a wise decision to hold that opinion. Maybe its different in the States, but in Holland it is possible to respect somebody even though you disagree with him or her. ;)

All I said was that the justification for training against kicks shouldn't rest on the likelihood of encountering an effective kick in a self-defense situation. This makes much more sense to me. And I'm pretty sure I said as much (perhaps the fact that English is not my first language is impeeding me in making myself understood) in earlier posts. I quote myzelf here:

the fact that street bullies kick or not is not actually the issue. Yes, so my point was exactly what you write in your last post. It is not "streetwise-iness" that is important to me. Not at all: actually you were the one that brought that one up if I remember correctly: Why would you spend time training against a type of attack that you're very unlikely to encounter except as an incompetent and ineffective execution? Oh, I've seen plenty of people try to use them in a fight; hey, they've seen the chop sockey flicks too, they know that when you get in a fight you're supposed to kick. In reality, though, what you'll see is something like this. Please, honestly correct me if I'm wrong: but what I read is that you would dismiss the notion of training in keri-waza because the chance you will encounter it in a "fight" is not big. Is that what you meant to say?

Because if it is, it seems to be contradicting the last statement,....:confused:

Anyway: to be terribly clear: Keri-waza should be a part of Aikido for many reasons; the relevant one in this discussion is that it is just as valid as an attack (both in training context as in competition as in street fighting) or perhaps more so than shomen-uchi, yokomen-uchi or any other attack we practice in aikido. My goal for Keri-waza is not to render Aikido more effective against anything or anyone, but just to make it more complete

As for catching the leg, I completely agree with Don and Demetrio. An often used argument to dismiss kicks is to say that you will be able to deal with them based on your experience with tsuki or yokomen. That experience will help but is not enough. You need to train. And as I said in an earlier post trapping or catching a leg should never be your goal; it can be a result of good timing and good taisabaki. But then you need to know what to do with the leg. All of these elements you need to train at.

Once again, thanks you all. If I do, in anyway offend anyone please be assured it is ineptitude rather than intent.

Mark

Richard Sanchez
09-11-2008, 01:54 PM
I've just caught up with this thread. As someone who has had an extensive background in the 'striking' arts before, (and since), taking up Aikido 27-years ago I always taught my students how to deliver effective kicks and punches, elbow strikes etc, from day one. It did not compromise their aikido and as our classes were 3-hour, 5 days a week, we had plenty of time to cover the 'normal' Aikido curriculum. We split classes into three sections, Taijitsu, Bukiwaza and freestyle randori which allowed All contact strikes plus the usual yokomen, shomen and grabs etc.

My personal opinion is that it has much to do with the teacher's experience and competence in teaching their students how to kick and punch. Several of my peers also have teaching backgrounds in other arts such as Shaolin, Karate and TKD and we all agree that integrating attacks not normally found in Aikido is quite natural and to be expected - if you have the background and the level of competency required to teach them safely.

We rarely had injuries as students were very comfortable with both delivering and receiving kicks because it was familiar to them . As to whether people consider kicks to be in the realm of Aikido- I guess that's another thread. But for me - anything goes.

velovet
09-11-2008, 02:43 PM
Interesting subject. At a seminar I attended a few years ago, one of the direct students of O Sensei strongly suggested that those students who had not learned a different martial art in the past, explore the more combat oriented systems. To broaden their skills in order to enhance their ability in a real life self defense circumstance. He demonstrated how his knowledge of other systems blended with Aikido to respond to actual self defense situations he encountered as a young man. Made sense.

xuzen
09-12-2008, 12:56 AM
On more serious note:

Push kick / teep is frustrating to the opponent

Round house / Mawashi Geri is scary to the opponent

Front Kick / Mae Geri is devastating to the opponent especially if one is wearing heavy foot wear (eg: Caterpillar [tm] Brand Boots) .

Jumping 540 degrees spin kick is LOL .

Boon.

Richard Sanchez
09-12-2008, 01:23 AM
On an even more serious note:D I have found the low kicks from Wing Chun to be most effective with and against Aikido- with or without footwear.

Mark Stokmans
09-12-2008, 04:06 AM
Yesterday I taught a class to a number of aikidoka with on average experiance of 5 years in aikido. I spent 15 hours on keri-waza, covering all three forms we defined in the course of our research (te waza, ashi waza and ashi-dori) for both Mae geri and Mawashi geri attacks. There were about three guys with kicking experiance. Two had had taken ukemi for me on a number of occassion and a TKD guy. The rest didn;t have that much experience.

Nevertheless we were able to train in a very constructive way. Sure, with some of the students kicks were less then perfect, but they picked p on a lot of thing quite quickly and the energy in the class was intense but wonderfully aiki. Moreover there was no injury whatsoever even though we did leg catches, and throws where breakfalls were necessary. I did a lot of stuff in that one and half hour class, really pushing them, seeing how far they could follow and at the end of the class everybody was still right there.

Obviously this is just one man's opinion but Keri-waza is aikido, there is no doubt in my mind. All you have to do is think about how you want to reach your students. Be thorough: think about the warming-up and stretching exerices, think about kicking practice (look at other MA's (like Richard Sanchez suggests) and learn from them), make your choices and figure out how you can help students by linking the Keri-waza techniques to what they already know.

Mark

Michael Douglas
09-12-2008, 07:23 AM
Interesting subject. At a seminar I attended a few years ago, one of the direct students of O Sensei strongly suggested that those students who had not learned a different martial art in the past, explore the more combat oriented systems.
Good man. What was his name?

Michael Douglas
09-12-2008, 09:08 AM
Mark, thanks so much for putting up videos on your weblog, I enjoyed them. Certainly got me thinking.

Mark Stokmans
09-15-2008, 06:38 AM
Michael, thank you for watching them. I hope the different possibilties there are in dealing with these kicks (not so much the techniques as the taisabaki and tesabaki were clear).

If at any time you would like to share those thoughts please let me/us know.

Mark

Mark Stokmans
10-28-2008, 06:52 AM
Picking up the discussion of this thread from some time ago: I just wanted to let those people interested in the subject know that I have finished the book. A description is available on the book review page of aikiweb (http://www.aikiweb.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=440&cat=5).

I have chosen to offer the books in full-colour version and a more economical a black and white edition. I do advise the full-colour edition. There are two black and white versions: one for US-based customers and one for European and other non-US-based customers.

Available through www.lulu.com (http://stores.lulu.com/markstokmans)