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akiy
06-12-2001, 06:40 PM
Hi folks,

To reflect upon this week's poll of, "Do you think pain is a necessary component in effective aikido?", what do folks here think?

-- Jun

Sarah
06-12-2001, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by akiy
Hi folks,

To reflect upon this week's poll of, "Do you think pain is a necessary component in effective aikido?", what do folks here think?

-- Jun

Not necessary - but perhaps inevitable. I've felt both yonkyo and sankyo -working- (moving a resisting uke) without pain, but I'm blowed if I can do it consistantly (yet). So pain, or possibly the threat of pain is still sometimes a necessary component of my aikido.

Sarah

Chuck Clark
06-13-2001, 01:00 AM
I don't think using pain as a control mechanism is dependable. I've come across too many people who you either can't hurt or they don't much care if you hurt them.

Take the opponent's balance properly and control their center of gravity, lock the joints to the point that they create their own pain if they think about moving. This can all be done with softness and what I call good engineering.

If you create pain, it actually can tell the opponent (who is sensitive and skillful) where the source of your power is. That of course is the point of balance and connection between your feet and the earth. If the opponent can feel this, then even if you're hurting them they can often turn the technique against you. Softness and good engineering gives no feedback for the opponent to use to solve their problem.

ian
06-13-2001, 02:59 AM
Yeh, definately agree with Chuck here. I've been attacked with knives, hit by rocks and punched and grabbed quite hard during real situations but never really felt any of it at the time. I think this is where the dojo can differ from some situations. Often the adrenalin is pumping round someone so hard they don't feel a thing. (although at other times when the opponent is not necessarily 'fighting you' in a conventional sense e.g. in controlling mentally ill patients - pain is a control thing, and the subject is more likely to feel it).

Also good point about feedback. A beautiful aikido tecnique is certainly one you could do nothing about 'cos you couldn't feel it.

However I wouldn't say painful techniques are redundant. Unlike many striking techniques the pain from e.g. nikkyo and sankyo, can be incremently introduced, until the point where the joints break or the opponent is forced down/up (which is why I think it is best to feel these techniques, for control, rather than just whacking them on).

Yonkyo is always a funny one - because it was derived from a sword taking technique I think that it is often more effective for pain when disarming someone because the ligaments are tighter. However the pressure point is also a ki draining point - and so may have additional effect over the aspect of pain (though I've not noticed any 'ki draining' effects myself).

Ian

akiy
06-13-2001, 07:06 AM
Thanks for everyone's feedback so far!

Originally posted by ian
Yonkyo is always a funny one - because it was derived from a sword taking technique I think that it is often more effective for pain when disarming someone because the ligaments are tighter.
At least the way we practice yonkyo at our dojo, it's still mainly a balance breaking technique rather than a pain-invoking one, though.

Anyone else have thoughts about the role of pain in aikido?

-- Jun

JO
06-13-2001, 08:03 AM
I think pain can be useful but is not necessary and should not be relied upon, for most of the reasons already mentioned. The taking of balance is much more fundamental to aikido, I believe.
One important use of pain is probably to the uke. It gives you warning to avoid injury. An attacker out of the dojo may not care about pain and he may get a broken wrist for having ignored it. This may not even stop him from achieveng whatever it is he hopes to achieve (killing you, getting you wallet, whatever). However, as an uke I plan to protect of my body and pain is an essential tool in accomplishing this. Warning of potential damage to the body is the primary function of pain, and a very important one.

Steve
06-13-2001, 08:48 AM
Nikyo is all about pain. Without pain it wouldn't work, as with many of our techniques. If these things didn't hurt, there would be no reason for uke not to wrench off his own arm as he fights against sankyo, for instance. When uke is much larger and stronger than nage, then just taking uke's balance probably isn't enough for compliance or a pin. (Strength does matter.) I can do an ikkyo pin without hurting uke because, at 220 pounds, I can put enough weight on his shoulder to keep him on the mat. One of our senior students -- a tiny woman with a very large black belt -- needs to add a little nikyo to keep my shoulder on the mat. -- Steve

andrew
06-13-2001, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Steve
Nikyo is all about pain.

Actually, that's just wrong. (I'm aware that sounds rude, so sorry, ok?) I believed it myself for a long time, but then got shown how to concentrate on controlling the body and ignore causing pain, which worked better and hurt less. I can't explain this, but I'm hope you're as lucky as I was to get shown it someday.
Mind you, the level I'm at it's a lot easier to make things be about pain unnecessarily. However, stranger things have happened than somebody with a wrist broken in Nikkyo getting an adrenaline surge and coming back with the other hand (unlikely though it may be), while I think the notion of somebody being controlled properly breaking that control by breaking their own locked wrist is a lot less conceivable.
andrew

mj
06-13-2001, 11:11 AM
Pain allows the beginner to believe in the 'effectiveness' of aikido. They are more likely to be impressed by nikkyo/sankyo etc than tenchi-nage or irimi. Pain is sometimes the gateway to learning painlessness.
Of course, everybody has a different idea about everything...

guest1234
06-13-2001, 05:49 PM
I'm in the pain-is-incidental-not-essential camp...
being a small person, I would disagree that I would need the pain edge; in fact, I try my very best to avoid it since pain usually causes uke to try to get away from it. And if uke is big and does not know how to get away correctly, they may further injure themselves (or ME!) trying. I only have a couple of years experience, but so far at least i've found that my only real hope of success with a large uke (almost everyone to me) is to take their balance immediately...causing pain to a big balanced uke would probably get me pounded into the ground.
I have seen very small black (and white) belts hold down large ukes without pain. One of my favorite instructors would constantly remind me that nice firm contact in a pin was important...an uke who doesn't feel any slack doesn't try to wriggle free. Do some techniques sometime cause pain--yes. But i think it is neither necessarily wrong or right if they do. It is difficult to cause me pain in nikyo, and impossible to cause me pain in yonkyo, but done correctly the techniques still bring me to the ground.

jimvance
06-13-2001, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Steve
Nikyo is all about pain. Without pain it wouldn't work, as with many of our techniques.
I guess if you are speaking from experience, we all know where you are coming from. It is kind of unfortunate that abuse at this level is perpetuated. I have been there. You would do yourself (and your training partners) a lot of good by thinking through why your study revolves around the principle of "aiki" and not "might makes right". Sure, there's going to be some pain somewhere; why make it a necessary ingredient anywhere?

Not being judgemental; it is your practice. Make of it what you will.

Jim Vance

ian
06-14-2001, 06:06 AM
Nikkyo does tend to be the technique that most beginners think 'wow! aikido does work', cos it is technically simple to achieve and doesn't require much body movement/timing or co-ordination. I think the pain aspect is useful to develop an idea of how to control pain (i.e. through progressive application you can get to know how painful it is for uke). I've only used it once outside the dojo, and it didn't seem to give them much pain - but they did back off quite rapidly; possibly because there was the threat of pain, but also probably because it does manipulate the joint and allows control of uke.

Ian

P.S. there are two ground applications for ikkyo. The vertical application is obviously easy to induce pain in the shoulder, but the horizontal (arm pinned on the floor) can also be used to induce pain - using the blade of the hand you roll the tricep forwards over the arm and press weight on to it (it's actually a pressure point, but this description usually finds the spot).

However, these pins do not require pain to hold someone. I've held someone who is 6 stone (84 pounds) heavier than me and who was determined to show me how crap the pins were (but they were convinced after that). In fact, the only way I know to get out of a good horizontal pin is through relaxing the shoulder (and you have to have very supple shoulders) and re-aligning it through turning it, and I have only ever known one person who could do that. (of course - crap pins you can roll forwards out of).

Ian

Steve
06-14-2001, 10:36 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andrew
[B]

Actually, that's just wrong. (I'm aware that sounds rude, so sorry, ok?) I believed it myself for a long time, but then got shown how to concentrate on controlling the body and ignore causing pain, which worked better and hurt less. I can't explain this, but I'm hope you're as lucky as I was to get shown it someday.
SNIP


Nikkyo without pain? Teach me, Master! -- Steve

TheProdigy
06-14-2001, 10:58 PM
Well, I disagree that beginner's are convinced through pain, but rather through pure effectiveness. Personally, I'm still learning the names of the techniques, but my 1st day on the mat a black belt wanted to test her skill against an untrained uke(me). Well, needless to say, after a ski she had me fumbling around the mat trying to get back up and more importantly trying to keep my face off the mat..which when I did come back up.. I met her arm and went back down lol. Not an ounce of pain, but my attack was completely nullified and I couldn't do a thing.

So I'd say pain isn't necessary for good aikido, however good aikido can include pain.

Balance, Timing/Rhythm, and Distance seem to be the keys to me so far... though I'm still very much a beginner.

Quick Note: I'd say the times I felt the least in control, and in awe of aikido's effectiveness were the times no pain was used. Amazing to feel.

-Jase

Chuck Clark
06-14-2001, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by TheProdigy
So I'd say pain isn't necessary for good aikido, however good aikido can include pain.

Balance, Timing/Rhythm, and Distance seem to be the keys to me so far... though I'm still very much a beginner.

Quick Note: I'd say the times I felt the least in control, and in awe of aikido's effectiveness were the times no pain was used. Amazing to feel.

-Jase

Jase,

Lots of "old timers" haven't come to the conclusions you have. In my opinion, you're right on the money. Keep those feelings and structure your practice around that picture.

Best of luck and don't quit!

MJO
06-14-2001, 11:54 PM
I feel that pain may have its usefullness in finalizing a technique/pin, but I think the word (discomfort) should replace the word pain. My instructor views the application of pain to (the last bullet in the chamber of a gun). A person has only "one" chance to fire that gun and if it is not properly timed, the adrenaline dump produced from the receiver of that pain might overwhelm tori/nage and create a dangerous and unavoidable problem.
In training, pain/discomfort should be timed and applied only to create a short disruption in the mind of uke. Hence,
proper and if possible,soft control is preferred. This unbalancing of the mind and body should allow the minimum use of force for maximum benefit for both partners. I think causing pain in your partner is due to one's unconcious, competitve nature to win.

ian
06-15-2001, 05:26 AM
When I first looked at the poll I was wondering if it meant pain for uke, or pain in general. I mean, I see a lot of value in intensive training where physical pain from exaustion or muscular tiredness can help build up the psychological aspects of the practitioner.

Ian

Jim23
06-15-2001, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by ian
I see a lot of value in intensive training where physical pain from exaustion or muscular tiredness can help build up the psychological aspects of the practitioner.

Ian
Psychological aspects, yes. Physical, no.

No pain, no gain -- that's old fashioned thinking and proven to be inneffective (but you knew that).

Like they say: train, don't strain.

On a serarate note (still pain related), the one thing that really bothers me about aikido is that uke totally gives himself/herself to nage. If nage wants to inflict pain, for whatever reason, uke has little choice but to receive it.

Also (future pain related), some warm-up exercises/stretching that I've seen are "outdated" and proven to be dangerous to joints, etc.

Jim23

Steve
06-15-2001, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by TheProdigy:
SNIP

So I'd say pain isn't necessary for good aikido, however good aikido can include pain.
SNIP
*********

But can you do nikyo without pain? Is it nikyo if it doesn't hurt? It's pain that drives me to the mat when someone applies nikyo to my wrist. As far as I can tell, the other folks in my dojo drop to their knees during nikyo because it just plain hurts. So is pain an inherent part of this technique? If not, I don't see how it could be effective, especially if uke is much stronger than nage.

What about kotegaeshi? What is it that makes us think "I better get my ass over my arm?" as we go into a crashing breakfall? Because we know the technique will hurt if we don't? Because it is starting to hurt? Because it hurts?

Pain. The great motivator. -- Steve

Chuck Clark
06-15-2001, 10:11 AM
That's one form of nikyo, Steve. It can be countered by people who understand the principles of pain and the fact that for an instant the uke still has control over their center and can counter.

There is another form which takes the uke's center so cleanly that there is no pain in the locked joint and uke is going down because they have no structural ability to stand or even stop falling. The joint lock only hurts if uke trys to tighten up to resist or tries to stand after the fall.

Of course, as the joint is locked (kime) the joint could be damaged if tori makes that decision within the levels of force that might be necessary.

Regards,

ian
06-18-2001, 04:20 AM
I would also say the same for kote-gaeshi - I've been thrown with it many times because of unbalancing rather than pain application (though it is a useful back-up - and I prefer both at the same time).

Ian

Hagen Seibert
06-18-2001, 07:39 AM
Hi Steve,
try looking at it this way:
When you are doing nikkyo without (primarily) trying to cause pain to move uke, it is in order to make a connection between your center and ukes center and moving/controlling uke by this connection. That sounds very theoretical. Ok, imagine a towel, which is a soft piece of cloth. You are holding one end, uke the other. If you twist the towel again and again, it will become a stiff wind-up thing, which you can use even for pushing lightly towards uke. Thats because of the tension within the towel.
Now much the same is the case with ukes arm. You getting it into tension, the joints cannot bend any further, so you can apply your weight (=center) onto him.

For kote-gaeshi try throwing without bending his wrist, by grabbing his arm just below the wrist. So you cant really do the lock. But you can still throw, using the dynamics. ( to find it out you need to make a big movement )

regards

andrew
06-18-2001, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Jim23

On a serarate note (still pain related), the one thing that really bothers me about aikido is that uke totally gives himself/herself to nage. If nage wants to inflict pain, for whatever reason, uke has little choice but to receive it.



But in that case Nage isn't a very nice person and it's time to educate him on the necessary attitude towards dynamic training. By words or forcible example.

There's some good words here:
http://gargas.biomedicale.univ-paris5.fr/eurocal/ecrits/ukemi1.html

andrew

Jim23
06-18-2001, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by andrew


But in that case Nage isn't a very nice person and it's time to educate him on the necessary attitude towards dynamic training.
andrew

Although I've never experienced it myself (yet), I've seen nage, with a gleam in their eye, inflict a little too much pain on uke.

The person inflicting the pain is usually (IMO) trying to prove some silly point (I'm better than you, or see, I can hurt you even though you're stronger, more experienced, etc.).

What I find funny about this is that, quite often, (the bully) nage wouldn't be able to hurt uke under normal circumstances -- if he didn't give himself fully. But if he didn't ... well, that's just not cricket. I mean aikido.

Just an observation.

Jim23

PS: Thanks for the article.

[Censored]
06-19-2001, 11:59 AM
Although I've never experienced it myself (yet), I've seen nage, with a gleam in their eye, inflict a little too much pain on uke.

When I am practicing with a beginner or a overzealous partner, I make sure I am leading them to the technique and not vice-versa. You must earn the right to do it *to me*, until then you must do it *with me*.

What I find funny about this is that, quite often, (the bully) nage wouldn't be able to hurt uke under normal circumstances -- if he didn't give himself fully. But if he didn't ... well, that's just not cricket. I mean aikido.

You don't mean this literally, I presume.

mj
06-19-2001, 06:07 PM
[Censored] I'm sure he did mean it...
And I know what he means, too.

Erik
06-19-2001, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
What I find funny about this is that, quite often, (the bully) nage wouldn't be able to hurt uke under normal circumstances -- if he didn't give himself fully.

You might want to read Ellis Amdur's "Dueling with O'Sensei." He goes into this with some depth in the book.

PeterR
06-19-2001, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Jim23

Although I've never experienced it myself (yet), I've seen nage, with a gleam in their eye, inflict a little too much pain on uke.
Well last night I was uke and Shihan had that glint in his eye - he enjoyed my discomfort a little bit too much. It was what the Aikikai folks call sankyo and although the pain was incredible, there was no damage and a lesson was learnt - don't let Shihan near you.

Seriously though the correct application of techniques like sankyo or nikkyo are often quite painful. It is not the pain which makes them correct but improperly applied they are not painful. Pain as indicator.

Under stress many people feel less or no pain. It is a mistake to rely on pain to get the job done but in my experience, reinforced by what happened last night, pain or no, a correctly appied controlling technique will work since they in effect lock up and control the joint.

andrew
06-20-2001, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
but improperly applied they are not painful. Pain as indicator.


That's very untrue in the middle of an otherwise good post. Bad, useless technique can frequently cause pain.

andrew

[Censored]
06-20-2001, 11:32 AM
That's very untrue in the middle of an otherwise good post. Bad, useless technique can frequently cause pain.

And with enough pain, you can end almost any fight, so such technique is hardly useless.

P.S. I already know true Aikidoka will never be involved in a fight, no need to remind me!

PeterR
06-20-2001, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by andrew
That's very untrue in the middle of an otherwise good post. Bad, useless technique can frequently cause pain.
I actually stewed over that line for a bit before posting it because generally I agree with your retort. The thing is that an improperly applied Nikkyo and Sankyo (we Shodokan types call it something else) can be neutralized quite easily by shifting the body only slightly. The more correct the application the less easy it is to do so. Correct form extends beyond perfect kihon, which varies a lot between styles, and pain in my mind is a great indicator that you are having the techniques applied to you correctly.

davoravo
07-02-2001, 05:28 AM
Pain appears to be neccessary in those dojos which practice against resistance ("hard" aikido). It does often seem unneccessary, yet how useful is it to practice the same movement repetitively with a "Dynamic" cooperative partner when a resisting partner will demonstrate the flaws in your technique?

This is a quandary I continue to struggle with. Is it better to practice dynamically and hope that after years of training one's technique will be correct or to have a resisting partner and know that the technique works but become stodgy and forceful in one's aikido?

ian
07-02-2001, 05:51 AM
Hi David,

I've put a new thread in teaching as regards this - my views on it.

Ian

Jim23
07-04-2001, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by PeterR

Seriously though the correct application of techniques like sankyo or nikkyo are often quite painful. It is not the pain which makes them correct but improperly applied they are not painful. Pain as indicator.

Under stress many people feel less or no pain. It is a mistake to rely on pain to get the job done but in my experience, reinforced by what happened last night, pain or no, a correctly appied controlling technique will work since they in effect lock up and control the joint.
Pain.

I presently have a pretty sore shoulder from Nikajo (can live with it) and two (very) sore and (very) swollen forearms from Yonkajo.

The extra pressure was unecessary and I don't understand what it proves.

If something like that happened in a real fight, I really wouldn't care much (until the next day), but in ongoing training ... ?

Although I'm very impressed that they did/do hurt, if this rubbish continues, I'll be looking at another MA (or club). I don't plan on having any long-term damage done to me.

Jim23

mj
07-04-2001, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Jim23

Pain.

Although I'm very impressed that they did/do hurt, if this rubbish continues, I'll be looking at another MA (or club). I don't plan on having any long-term damage done to me.

Jim23

A fair point Jim, but my own view is that these moves are actually GOOD for the body, over a longer period. Try out as many clubs as you like, though...

Jim23
07-04-2001, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure if I follow you Mark. Do you mean that the extra pressure/damage is good for the body in the long term? My wrists look like someone with severe carpal tunnel syndrome, I don't see how that can be good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset by the pain (potential damage, if this happens repeatedly, yes), it's the fact that the training is co-operative - I allowed it be done to me. And I probably will next class.

Jim23

mj
07-04-2001, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I pretty much meant that...
However, if a club/person is giving you a hard time... that's different.
Then again, I've read your posts... you do have a knack of annoying people :D

Jim23
07-04-2001, 03:22 PM
In real life, I'm a very nice person. :)

Jim23

PeterR
07-04-2001, 07:34 PM
A quick clarification.

My little story aside - the cranking of techniques just because you can is definately frowned upon in the dojo. Shihan was demonstrating to me the error of my technique - what the difference is. During the course of last nights training I put a full pin on one of my kohei so he could understand the true nature - after that we practiced much softer. No need to cause damge or unnecessary pain.

Secondly - we do become desensitized to pain both physically and mentally. I can take yonkyo (we call it kime) without too much trouble now as opposed to when I first started.


Originally posted by Jim23

Pain.

I presently have a pretty sore shoulder from Nikajo (can live with it) and two (very) sore and (very) swollen forearms from Yonkajo.

The extra pressure was unecessary and I don't understand what it proves.

If something like that happened in a real fight, I really wouldn't care much (until the next day), but in ongoing training ... ?

Although I'm very impressed that they did/do hurt, if this rubbish continues, I'll be looking at another MA (or club). I don't plan on having any long-term damage done to me.

Jim23

Chuck Clark
07-05-2001, 09:16 AM
We certainly want to become "sensitized" to the pain in all waza. Otherwise, we won't know where and when to apply counters. In kata practice, I teach my students to lock the joints to the point of kime (which includes some "discomfort" to be sure) and do this in such a way that uke has NO ROOM for movement without hurting themselves. We quickly learn where this is and no injuries occur.

However, in randori geiko, I will not allow anyone to even get to kime (the decisive point in a lock) with me. If they do, it's because they did something right and there was absolutely no way (in my experience at that point!) that I could have stopped them.

Letting someone continue to cause pain that leads to lots of swelling and bruising quickly destroys your ability to practice properly together, in my opinion. That leads to a complete breakdown in trust.

There are places where it's okay to trade off hurting each other for fun. It shouldn't be in the dojo.

Erik
07-05-2001, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Jim23
I presently have a pretty sore shoulder from Nikajo (can live with it) and two (very) sore and (very) swollen forearms from Yonkajo.


Jim, could you clarify a bit more on what happened. I'm a bit puzzled by getting a shoulder tweaked in nikyo and have all these pictures in my head of what happened. None of which are probably right.

Jim23
07-05-2001, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Chuck Clark

Letting someone continue to cause pain that leads to lots of swelling and bruising quickly destroys your ability to practice properly together, in my opinion. That leads to a complete breakdown in trust.

There are places where it's okay to trade off hurting each other for fun. It shouldn't be in the dojo.
That's for sure.

I'm actually considering looking at another club tonight because of it - don't really want to wimp out though.

I have to stress that's it's not the pain or even the swelling that concerns me - these things happen. It's the thought of this happening on an ongoing basis, causing real long-term injury. It's been two days and my forearms (palm side) are very swollen, lumpy and bruised (difficult to bend the thumb back). The funny thing is that I was very gentle with the person who caused this when they were uke.

Not sure what I'll do yet.

Jim23

Jim23
07-05-2001, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Erik


Jim, could you clarify a bit more on what happened. I'm a bit puzzled by getting a shoulder tweaked in nikyo and have all these pictures in my head of what happened. None of which are probably right.
Erik, it was when the lock was applied (palm face up, shoulder locked) after being brought to the floor. That doesn't feel that sore now. It's really the wrists/forearms.

I think I'm becoming a wimp.

Jim23

mj
07-05-2001, 11:22 AM
Jim, another thought.
In aikido, when people think you are ready to move 'up' a level, they will (WILL) hurt you, to see 'if you can take it' at that level.
Now...THAT can hurt.
Take your time.

Erik
07-05-2001, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
Erik, it was when the lock was applied (palm face up, shoulder locked) after being brought to the floor. That doesn't feel that sore now. It's really the wrists/forearms.

I think I'm becoming a wimp.

Jim23

Jim, in the world I inhabit, that is called bullshit.

You are pinned, on the ground and no longer a threat if my pin is competent. Pain is meaningless at this point because if done correctly it doesn't matter. People seem to think they need pain to prove the pin. The proof is in the fact that they can't get up to get you again. This pin is one of those in my opinion.

There are a couple of good reasons pain happens but most aren't. Most commonly it's skill level or dominance. If it's a dominance/power thing I'd give a lot of thought to finding a new home.

Now, if you are down on the ground resisting nage and nage is less skilled than they might be then I'd be prepared to expect pain. Otherwise I'd go with it, tap loudly and quickly and live to roll another day.

Jim23
07-05-2001, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Erik

Jim, in the world I inhabit, that is called bullshit.

You are pinned, on the ground and no longer a threat if my pin is competent. Pain is meaningless at this point because if done correctly it doesn't matter. People seem to think they need pain to prove the pin. The proof is in the fact that they can't get up to get you again. This pin is one of those in my opinion.

There are a couple of good reasons pain happens but most aren't. Most commonly it's skill level or dominance. If it's a dominance/power thing I'd give a lot of thought to finding a new home.

Now, if you are down on the ground resisting nage and nage is less skilled than they might be then I'd be prepared to expect pain. Otherwise I'd go with it, tap loudly and quickly and live to roll another day.

Erik,

Um ... it was applied by one of my senseis. I think he was trying to see just how tough I was - I actually tapped before the extra pressure was applied.

It's the wrist/forearm thing that got me thinking. Although I know I'll recover, what concerns me is that he knew what he was doing and the potential damage he was causing.

Maybe it was to show me just how effective his aikido was, or perhaps it just made his nipples hard.

Maybe it's all in my head.

Jim23

Erik
07-05-2001, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
Erik,

Um ... it was applied by one of my senseis. I think he was trying to see just how tough I was - I actually tapped before the extra pressure was applied.

It's the wrist/forearm thing that got me thinking. Although I know I'll recover, what concerns me is that he knew what he was doing and the potential damage he was causing.

Maybe it was to show me just how effective his aikido was, or perhaps it just made his nipples hard.

Maybe it's all in my head.

Jim23

One of my sempai, in his younger less knowledgeable days, sent a client of his to a dojo in another city. He thought Aikido was Aikido was Aikido. His client comes back to him and says that the first thing the instructor said was "Aikido is pain. You must learn to deal with pain." Needless to say, the client ran out the door.

Of course, I've read a similar thing from the first Doshu as well but I'm fairly certain the context was different. Anyways, some folks really think it needs to hurt and be forceful to work.

PS: I'm in the process of sending you a private message. I think you find it via. your control panel.

Jim23
07-08-2001, 09:03 AM
Well, just to follow up ... I ended up going back to the same club again for yet another night of training.

I had a chance to have a little chat with the "offending party" and we kissed and made up before class - which was good (the class that is).

I think the next time someone deliberately inflicts execessive pain/damage, my response will be a little different than it was before though.

Jim23

guest1234
07-08-2001, 12:11 PM
I think some mention has to be about uke, and uke's role in avoiding pain, since good ukemi will get you out of just about any pain nage is inflicting. Sometimes we are too intent on resisting (sure that nage doesn't have it, and going to prove it)---but surprise, they do indeed have it, and now uke is behind the power curve in moving. Sometimes, even already knowing the technique that is about to be applied, uke decides to tap rather that move or lose their balance(i.e., won't get up on their toes/move for sankyo, won't get down to the ground/move close for nikyo, etc.)--they think as uke the only thing they need to move is their free hand against their thigh. Not only does this hinder nage's training, but it does nothing to improve uke's poor ukemi---what if you are in a situation where tapping does not work? I am amazed at the number of ukes who do not know the correct way to move to take off the pressure of a joint locking technique, it's like they view their role as uke as just marking time until they get to do the technique. What a waste.