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doronin
11-22-2005, 04:03 AM
I recall an interesting experiment, recently broadcasted on, I think, Discovery channel: there was an attempt to make a computerized 3D models of two swordsmen, one of Chinese tradition, and another of Japanese. I don't remember whether there were some specific schools or compilations, but I recall Chinese moves were in circle forms.
Then they attempted to analyse who's techniques and strategies are more effective in a duel from purely technical perspective, keeping such parameters as mastery level or state of the mind out of the scope.
The outcome was interesting: they concluded that Chinese would win (technically) because his more complicated choreography, beyond being distractive, allowed him to keep his sphere much wider than the sphere of his Japanese opponent.

I think the experiment was really entertaining, but... does their outcome make sense in real?

Nick Simpson
11-22-2005, 05:39 AM
Obviously not, as 'in real' you could never compare these factors.

Steve Mullen
11-22-2005, 05:44 AM
i think objectifying something like this inherantly strips it of reality. part of the training in any kind of art or ryu is learning the correcty frame of mind to have in duels/sparring/training/grading/life in general. if you take this away it could be a big factor to ignore.

Steve Mullen
11-22-2005, 05:46 AM
its not always the person who moves fastest and punches hardest who wins a fight, things like how many punches are just as important, these personal things are what makes the art.

LadyLailah
11-22-2005, 06:24 AM
its not always the person who moves fastest and punches hardest who wins a fight, things like how many punches are just as important, these personal things are what makes the art.

That's just it, personal. I think it's all well and ok for technique to be illustrated in some 3D animation, but without personality it's not accurate/real enough to make any judgments on either style.

I think one question is, can a judgment be made purely on technique, not taking into account personality and such parameters..?

Nick Simpson
11-22-2005, 06:47 AM
There is no such thing as an effective martial art, only effective practitioners. I think that sums it up.

SeiserL
11-22-2005, 09:15 AM
There is no such thing as an effective martial art, only effective practitioners.
Gotta totally agree there.
I would enjoy seing the clips though.

LadyLailah
11-22-2005, 10:25 AM
There is no such thing as an effective martial art, only effective practitioners.

I think that answered my question. And summed things up!
I think that's one to remember in many discussions

Nick Simpson
11-22-2005, 10:53 AM
Yeah, Id like to see that program too, just out of interest.

James Davis
11-22-2005, 11:16 AM
Xtreme Martial Arts was the title. I saw it, too. Not too much commentary on soft styles. :( I saw a guy do a kata that was just crazy. :crazy: He was tossing his katana up in the air and spinning it all over the place. He probably came close to cutting off his hands, but it was flashy enough to impress the judges and win the competition.

Yann Golanski
11-22-2005, 11:18 AM
*sigh*

More of the same myths... IF there were an ultimate martial art, we'll all be learning it instead of having hundreds. It what works for you which is important.

Chinese swords and katana and totally different -- well, DUH! -- so comparing technique is worthless. It's almost as crazy as comparing a medival knight to a samurai and asking who would win... And of course, we all know who would win between a 12.7 machine gun and a katana.

Where do those people get funding for their crazy research? Is there some kind of fundation who funds crazy idea... cause if there is, I have a bucket full of them to test...

/rant.
//grumpy young man.
///no voting.

doronin
11-22-2005, 03:09 PM
That's just a normal human curiosity.
I agree that it's pointless to compare two individuals of different styles with purpose to evaluate who's style is better.
What I think they were doing is analyzing and comparing not the arts themselves, but available to each of the opponents sets of technics, tactics, and strategies. And unlike arts, you can model and analyse strategies, be it war strategies, business strategies, or dueling strategies, the same goes for tactics and technics.
It would not tell you who wins, or whos art is better, but it may tell who may have potential technical advantage, before you look into personalities.

Tim Gerrard
11-23-2005, 07:39 AM
Xtreme Martial Arts was the title. I saw it, too. Not too much commentary on soft styles. :( I saw a guy do a kata that was just crazy. :crazy: He was tossing his katana up in the air and spinning it all over the place. He probably came close to cutting off his hands, but it was flashy enough to impress the judges and win the competition.

I saw that too, the Kata was utter BS! Completly impractical, showy rubbish. The guy said that he'd had no formal sword training, and had 'just liked the look of it.'

We had a similar thing in Britain called 'Master's of Combat' there was a round where the competitors had to cut melons along lines with a Katana. This too turned into a flurry of backflips and cartwheels, for a start one lad nearly lopped his foot off, and the cuts were absolute toss, about 1 in 5 actually were any where near accurate. What ever happened to awareness, and focus. I'm sure people would appreciate a bit of realism in these shows. *Rant over*

:D

Nick Simpson
11-23-2005, 08:16 AM
I saw a nice photo of Miura sensei, head of eishin ryu cutting 10 pieces of rolled up newspaper and the cut was so perfect they had hardly moved. Now thats proper.

Amir Krause
11-23-2005, 10:32 AM
I recall an interesting experiment, recently broadcasted on, I think, Discovery channel: there was an attempt to make a computerized 3D models of two swordsmen, one of Chinese tradition, and another of Japanese. I don't remember whether there were some specific schools or compilations, but I recall Chinese moves were in circle forms.
Then they attempted to analyse who's techniques and strategies are more effective in a duel from purely technical perspective, keeping such parameters as mastery level or state of the mind out of the scope.
The outcome was interesting: they concluded that Chinese would win (technically) because his more complicated choreography, beyond being distractive, allowed him to keep his sphere much wider than the sphere of his Japanese opponent.

I think the experiment was really entertaining, but... does their outcome make sense in real?

I am just wondering what are the assumptions of the people doing the research:
What is better and what is worse? (larger / smaller movement , more possible moves or less, faster move or longer reach)
And how does one factor those.

I suspect it is possible to get whatever outcome one wishes for depending on the assumptions !

Amir

Steve Mullen
11-23-2005, 10:40 AM
I suspect it is possible to get whatever outcome one wishes for depending on the assumptions !

Amir

That's what i was thinking too, its like those T.V. adverts that say 85% of people agree and in small print it says 8749 people tested. you know that they decided they wanted it to be 85% and so stopped testing as soon as they reached it.

This sounds like it is the same, they have tested all the things that they know would make one style seem more effective and ignored everything else IMHO

James Davis
11-23-2005, 11:41 AM
That's what i was thinking too, its like those T.V. adverts that say 85% of people agree and in small print it says 8749 people tested. you know that they decided they wanted it to be 85% and so stopped testing as soon as they reached it.

This sounds like it is the same, they have tested all the things that they know would make one style seem more effective and ignored everything else IMHO
Yes. Take what you've decided about those TV advertisements and apply it to what newspapers try to sell you... :disgust:

doronin
11-23-2005, 03:21 PM
I think you guys take it all too seriously. That wasn't a scientific properly arranged research, but just an attempt to enterain viewers in a new way. For that reason I don't believe they really had any assumptions, as well as a goal to prove anything specific.

George S. Ledyard
11-23-2005, 05:33 PM
The conclusion as described is wrong because the reasoning used to arrived at this conclusion is bogus. Highly trained people don't get distracted by large complex movement. they step into the center and cut it. Generally speaking the person with the smallest and most economical movement will win because his movemnts are faster. That does not take into account the level of mental development of the practitioners which might allow one or the other to intuit the moment the opponent makes the decision to attack or to stand in front of an oncoming attack until the split second before you get cut and then cut the opponent (requires strong fudoshin). The person who has the greatest sophistication on the mental side will win if technique is equal. If mental sophistication is equal, the person with the smallest and most economical movement will win. (This is not atking into account the situation decsribed by Takuan in which the beginner defeats the experieced swordsman because he does something completely unpredictable because he doesn't knoiw any better).

Nick Simpson
11-24-2005, 03:16 AM
Great input George! That was what I was kind of thinking, but not so eloqeuntly ;)

doronin
11-24-2005, 03:54 AM
Thanks George. This answers that question indeed.

deepsoup
11-24-2005, 11:33 AM
Reminds me of this (http://70.86.201.113/imageserv2/temporary/PBF076ADGigaknight.jpg). (Which made me chuckle.)

Amir Krause
11-27-2005, 06:09 AM
The conclusion as described is wrong because the reasoning used to arrived at this conclusion is bogus. Highly trained people don't get distracted by large complex movement. they step into the center and cut it. Generally speaking the person with the smallest and most economical movement will win because his movements are faster. That does not take into account the level of mental development of the practitioners which might allow one or the other to intuit the moment the opponent makes the decision to attack or to stand in front of an oncoming attack until the split second before you get cut and then cut the opponent (requires strong fudoshin). The person who has the greatest sophistication on the mental side will win if technique is equal. If mental sophistication is equal, the person with the smallest and most economical movement will win. (This is not taking into account the situation decsribed by Takuan in which the beginner defeats the experieced swordsman because he does something completely unpredictable because he doesn't know any better).


Personally, I do not think I am qualified to judge, which assumptions are the right ones, the ones proposed in that TV show, or the ones presented above (which go along with my training too).
Lets not forget, most of us do not have practical experience in life&death sword fights (lets keep it this way), nor did we learn Chinese M.A.

Amir