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Roy Dean
11-04-2005, 01:07 PM
Hello,

Here's the link. Not sure what to make of it. I'd love to see this guy in Pride or the UFC...

http://www.pathgate.org/pi_video_03.html

All thoughts and opinions are welcome...

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
www.royharris.com
www.jiaiaikido.com

giriasis
11-04-2005, 01:17 PM
LOL

I love that guys ukemi. :p

Talon
11-04-2005, 01:32 PM
Reminds me of Yellow Bamboo....I studies Wing Chun with an exceptional teacher and never seen anything like that except for the Yellow Bamboo folks...

MikeE
11-04-2005, 01:34 PM
Wow. My Yellow Bamboo detection gland is tingling.

MikeE
11-04-2005, 01:35 PM
Man. You just beat me to it Paul

Mike Sigman
11-04-2005, 01:43 PM
Reminds me of Yellow Bamboo....I studies Wing Chun with an exceptional teacher and never seen anything like that except for the Yellow Bamboo folks... Yeah, well if you got on one of their forums and said that (the obvious), you'd be severely chastised for not conforming to the accepted beliefs and for not pumping air into the tires of your fellow believers!!! ;)

I often think of some martial styles as being "filters" and some teachers also acting as "filters". Students come through the schools and in many cases the more serious people look around and leave... the wannabelieves stay, adopt the de rigeur costumes and mannerisms and foreign words, etc. In the case of these schools where they are trying to show the "external qi" (or "emitted qi"), you can always bet that the school is populated with "wannabelieves". I can think of about 10 schools offhand where this sort of stuff is part of the curriculum. When I ask them to demonstrate it to me, they either refuse or they give it a try while I stand there with a bored look on my face.... I am almost always then told that I am "not sensitive enough" for their qi to affect me. Lessee now..... should I put off any would-be muggers and tell them to go get sensitized so I can whip their butts at a distance??? I don't think they'll go for it, to be honest. ;)

Mike

Kevin Leavitt
11-04-2005, 02:04 PM
Many of us have experienced the same thing inside of aikido dojos as well. While I have never really experienced this as the dojo norm in my organziaiton, There are individuals in the dojo that exhibit and emulate these very things you bring up Mike.

I am not familar wtih this organization, but you know, we all have various forms of delusions and paradigms that we live under.

Some will choose to break out of them and pull away from the "herd" others will move towards them and become part of the flock.

All organizations, IMHO, run the risk of becoming paroachial and developing "group think". it is something we must watch! It is easy to become comfortable and complacent...espeically when you are surround by intelligent people wearing black hakama that are telling you how good you look today an "my your KI is strong" :)

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2005, 02:27 PM
Oh My God....this has got to be a spoof. Please tell me it's a spoof...

Did anyone else catch this spooky frame???

Talon
11-04-2005, 02:35 PM
Inteligent people wearing Hakamas is one thing. Thats just being respectful of the traditions of the art and its traditional atire. Jumping around like a complete moron while spinning for no reason is just retarded... I really can't believe people buy this stuff. I'd love to see this master display his Ki/Chi skills on someone that's not his student (and not hpnotized).

Mike Sigman
11-04-2005, 02:37 PM
Oh My God....this has got to be a spoof. Please tell me it's a spoof...What catches my attention is that it's Wing Chun.... which is a notoriously Hong Kong art and Hong Kong is where you get all the "empty force" dudes from. So this guy probably spent a little time in Hong Kong, comes back to Mysore, India and makes a killing fulilling the sexual fantasies of some strange Englishmen. :^) Not to mention some Americans who are looking for someone to "magick" them.

Mike Tongue-in-Cheek-so-to-Speak

Mike Sigman
11-04-2005, 02:42 PM
Inteligent people wearing Hakamas is one thing. << Bites tongue HARD >> Thats just being respectful of the traditions of the art and its traditional atire. Jumping around like a complete moron while spinning for no reason is just retarded... I really can't believe people buy this stuff. I'd love to see this master display his Ki/Chi skills on someone that's not his student (and not hpnotized). Hmmmmm. You may not have been to some of the dojo's I've been to. If you don't think that Aikido has an ample share of "complete morons", you need to travel a bit. However, I'll put Taiji up against Aikido any day of the week for the percentage of wannabelieves... Taiji would win hands down.

Mike

Kevin Leavitt
11-04-2005, 02:43 PM
I have no problem with people being respectful and all that...it is a good thing to do. However, my only point is, that you must keep it in the proper perspective. Yes, there seems to be a sliding scale on being delusional anywhere from diving through ukemi...through spining around like a complete moron and throwing KI balls.

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2005, 03:06 PM
I thought that's what it was. I'm really bad in chinese arts...chi sau, that's what the wing chungers call it, right? It's amazing what folks can come up with.

Best,
Ron

Talon
11-04-2005, 03:31 PM
I'm not saying that Aikido is immune to COMPLETE MORONS...:) I'm saying that Inteligent people wearing Hakamas are not necessarily such a bad and idiotic thing. The stuff on this video IS!

giriasis
11-04-2005, 03:44 PM
I didn't have a problem with the actual sticky hands part, it was the jumping around and spinning away in mid-air. And Ron, that picture is kind of freaky. I didn't catch that. I wondered what they were doing by showing that particular part.

Camille Lore
11-04-2005, 05:04 PM
ROTFL
I couldn't even stand to watch the whole thing!

Rupert Atkinson
11-04-2005, 06:30 PM
What on earth was that? When messing around I can send people back sometimes but I have never seen anyone jump around like a fried live chicken. Well, it was produced somewhere in Newcastle upon Tyne - should be easy enough for someone in the UK to check out.

I particularly liked the shaking hand technique - would love to be able to do that. Quite suitable for Asia where everyone usually bows - maybe it is a cross-cultural thing.

Despite all the rantings, Wing Chun is more effective as a martial art than most Aikido. Maybe he as a taser wire under his finger ...

senshincenter
11-04-2005, 08:39 PM
Could it be that the they are not being made to move as such but rather that they have been advised to move as such in order to not suffer any supposed ill effects from have a chi blast sent through them?

In Aikido, at the All-Japan Aikido demonstration, you got at least two folks that regularly do that - have their uke's bodies being continually manipulated from a distance via some sort of chi emission. Someone earlier mentioned something about a trained animal or something like that - that so brings to mind one of the two folks I'm referring to, where his uke totally looks like a trained circus poodle doing tricks.

Mike Sigman
11-05-2005, 10:32 AM
ROTFL
I couldn't even stand to watch the whole thing!I remember watching Chu Gin Soon on video doing that same sort of thing with some of his Boston students (again, though, Chu had his training in Hong Kong, which seems to be the origin of a lot of the hokey guys time and time again). I felt ill seeing these desparate morons making fools of themselves because they wanted to believe so bad. In the same room with me was a very high-level and famous mainland-Chinese martial artist.... he got queasey, too. The only person in the room who got a kick out of watching it was some martial arts practitioner from Hong Kong. Surprise.

The standard gag is to take a goldfish in a bowl to one of these shows and ask them to move your goldfish, or even kill it, with all that qi. Of course, they can't do it. The level-headed Chinese always refer to this kind of bullshit as "psychological power". But hey.... go into many dojo's of many different styles and you'll see at least vestiges of that same sort of thing going on.

FWIW

Mike

Devon Natario
11-05-2005, 10:44 AM
I assumed they were doing some weird Ukemi. I didnt even once think this instructor was using his Chi to make them run around 100 yards away. I figured they were jumping around to make the pain go away.

I have had experiences with George Dillman who I must admit knows what he is doing. It seemed all mystical and fake until they chose me to take a few hits and I went down. It was weird, and I did not believe it before then. Of course, his art utilizes pressure points which exhist, and not some all powerful force that the Jedi use.

Kevin Leavitt
11-05-2005, 10:54 AM
It goes on to some degree in every dojo that you go into. I have not ever been in a dojo where there is not at least one person that believes he is something that he is not. Personally, I have been there too at some level.

I think it is something we all struggle with. We want to believe so bad that we can perfect ourselves or our art that we begin to "fill in the gaps". Some more than others.

Also, to comment on something Rupert said. I wouldn't say one martial art is more effective than another, but that martial artist can be more effective than other martial artist. again, it really depends on your definition of effective. (another thread, and one of my favorite topics!). Frankly I think most empty hand martial arts are a waste of time if you are talking about "combat effective".

That said, I really think it is mainly about personal choice and value. Some people are comfortable with creating a world and surrounding themselves with others that think like them and believing what they want to believe. What we might value as a community of aikidoka might not align with what they believe. I'd say if that master had a group of people that honestly believed that he could do those feats, then I'd say he was effective most definitely!

I think you really have to be careful about the judgements that you pass. Something about glass houses and stones.

Come train with some of the folks I train and have trained with and start discussion the realitive values of "effectiveness"...I'd believe you'd have a very different definition of what constitutes effectiveness! I know I do now! We constantly debate and argue this all the time and never get an answer!

I think it better to go train and always question what you are learning and be cognizant that we all in some way become victims of "group think" and of our training environment. In some way their is a little bit of the KI seeking warrior in all of us.

senshincenter
11-05-2005, 11:01 AM
I did see one video once where it may not have been so "clear" that the instructor was NOT moving them around with his "emissions". I doubt I could find it again but I imagine others have seen it and might even know where it is now.

It was a man and a woman. A couple other people on in the room. They were like in this long wood-floor hallway-like room. The man has the woman jumping all over the place, making use of the full length of the long room - his hands gesturing like he's manipulating her as if by invisible puppet strings. In a second demonstration, he does the same thing only he's on the other side of a closed door. The lady looks as if she is totally on crack and having some sort of convulsion - either that or she is in state of total demon possession. Has anyone else seen this video and/or knows where we can all see it again? Seems like it would be a great addition to this thread.

Mike Sigman
11-05-2005, 11:07 AM
Could it be that the they are not being made to move as such but rather that they have been advised to move as such in order to not suffer any supposed ill effects from have a chi blast sent through them? Yeah, there's some of them that say they do it so the qi won't damage them. It's absurd. I met up with the author of a book on the subject and he wanted to "push hands", so I agreed. Whenever I would mildly release some power to move him backward he would do these absurd leaps and jumps and I finally asked him why he did it (if you want to really cream someone, when they're off-balance and up in the air is a great time to do it).... he said so that my qi couldn't hurt him. I remarked to him that his qi didn't seem to be hurting me when he tried to do something to me and I didn't have to leap around; he then assured me that he'd been holding back. So I put his hands on my chest and told him to hit me as hard as he could with his qi... he just bounced backward (this is due to physics, nothing magical). Having felt that he had no real physical power, I then let him draw both hands back and slam them into my chest as hard as he could... he again bounced back through the air. By then he was ready to believe that **I** had magical qi powers. It's either physics (which anyone can do, with training) or it's malarkey. Always.

FWIW

Mike

senshincenter
11-05-2005, 11:15 AM
Yup. That's the magic of delusion - everything that could shed some light is subsumed under the same corrupted constructs and thus only becomes part of the darkness.

Well - talk about luck - I actually found the link - the guy lists himself as a "tele-kinetic master".

Here is the link for the video:

http://www.roxburytaichiacademy.com/video/Kenetic%20bb.wmv

A friendly warning - to me - this video here makes the first video offered look very legitimate. This one is simply not only out of this world - it's out of the entirety of space!

Chuck Clark
11-05-2005, 04:04 PM
David, that is just too nasty...

Where's that little gadget they used in Men In Black to erase memory when you need it?

Yukkkk!

3girls
11-05-2005, 05:27 PM
Ummmm WOW my list of emotions on that video
:) :confused: :freaky: :eek: :crazy: :hypno: :rolleyes:

iHeretic
11-05-2005, 05:47 PM
That first video is positively normal compared to that :crazy: Reminds me of something...

Do they grok? ;) Or do they think they grok?

The only way that video could be scarier is if he could spell "kinetic" properly. :D

roosvelt
11-05-2005, 09:14 PM
Yup. That's the magic of delusion - everything that could shed some light is subsumed under the same corrupted constructs and thus only becomes part of the darkness.

Well - talk about luck - I actually found the link - the guy lists himself as a "tele-kinetic master".

Here is the link for the video:

http://www.roxburytaichiacademy.com/video/Kenetic%20bb.wmv

A friendly warning - to me - this video here makes the first video offered look very legitimate. This one is simply not only out of this world - it's out of the entirety of space!

Why do we only believe sound and vision are the only ways to communicate? There might be something else.

I used to think Lucid dreams fake until I had one, two and more.

The couple on video maybe fraud. They might be real too.

senshincenter
11-05-2005, 09:42 PM
Perhaps if they were real that might be even more upsetting - someone so interested in and also holding so much value in the manipulation of another human being. Such that the manipulation of another, the accumulation of such (supposed) power, etc., could or should actually be thought of as some sort of accomplishment worthy of dedication and commitment. For me, that is worse - worse that someone studies it, someone wants to learn it, someone seeks to teach it as an art or as a tradition, etc. It's nothing but an immature spirit running wild or unchecked in regards to their own will to power and their own ego lusts. It is the holding of what is base - what is so common and mundane - in Man as that which is "golden" in him/her.

For me, yes, it would be worse if it was proved real.

mathewjgano
11-06-2005, 12:50 AM
Perhaps if they were real that might be even more upsetting - someone so interested in and also holding so much value in the manipulation of another human being. Such that the manipulation of another, the accumulation of such (supposed) power, etc., could or should actually be thought of as some sort of accomplishment worthy of dedication and commitment..
I've met some people that say the same thing about martial arts in general: "why would you want to study something that can hurt someone? It looks violent and violence is petty." I can see how the gaining of power can be a noble thing when the care for others is of central importance.
However, I think this person is a fraud (seems a safe assertion on this thread :D ) Besides, if the person wanted people to take notice and put a video on the internet to show his abilities, there are more credible ways to "share the truth." Also, if he can make her move like that without a sound while in the same room, why did he need to hit something to "cue" her reaction?

senshincenter
11-06-2005, 02:31 AM
Well, I would tend to agree, violence is a petty thing - anyone can do it. Even in the case you are mentioning, it is not the violence or the power that stops being petty, rather it is the act of sacrifice, of risk, of protection, of service - the act of selflessness - etc., that is noble. This is why he/she that steps up for another remains noble even if they fail at obtaining the mundane victory. By stepping up, victory over the self was achieved in the capacity to offer oneself up for another - nobility is maintained even if victory over another is not.

Personally, I never came to the martial arts to learn how to fight - since that was something everyone in my area learned how to do just by growing up. Fighting was no big deal or it became no big deal. So, for me, I couldn't imagine some sort of preoccupation with violence, and/or noble use of power, etc., driving me in my pursuits these past two decades - let alone beyond that, from now and into the future. Too much is involved in training, too much needs to be sacrificed, too much commitment is required, too much discipline is demanded, etc., just to learn how to fight and/or use violence toward some sort of imagined and/or fantasized noble end. That's just me though - to each his/her own.

Regardless, what you see in this video, in my opinion, is definitely a preoccupation with the mundane. If you will, it is indeed a fetishizing of what is base in Man. We, as a species, do it all the time - uplift what should be downplayed. This is a marker of "Modernity." For when the "believer" looks at this stuff, he/she doesn't say, "Wow, just imagine what good I can do if I could wield such power?!" Oh no, they say, "Man, I wish I could be that powerful! Could you imagine if I too was that powerful?!" At the source of this desire, this lust, is nothing more than fear, feelings of inadequacy, insecurity, anxiousness, even alienation if you dig deep enough. In the end, the desire feeds the fear and this cycle perpetuates itself ad infinitum with fear feeding desire and desire feeding fear. That's how all desires for mundane power work. When you look at it that way, you got to wonder what sort of good, or, rather, what sort of self-sacrifice such a person is actually capable of - since fear is one of the primal causes of egocentrism (and hence fear is antithetical to acts of selflessness and thus to acts of nobility). My guess would be that such a person could only act "nobly" when nobility by chance coincides with their own egoistic drives (i.e. no REAL acts of nobility being possible since acts of nobility require acts to be based upon high degrees of selflessness).

Mashu
11-06-2005, 02:54 AM
http://www.pathgate.org/images/homepage_img/r78Athens2005cr149ar.jpg

At least he isn't looking at the finger.



.

pointy
11-06-2005, 11:49 PM
http://www.pathgate.org/images/homepage_img/r78Athens2005cr149ar.jpg

At least he isn't looking at the finger.



.
:D

what's up man boobs