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Walter Wong
10-28-2005, 10:55 AM
I was told of Ueshiba Sensei spent some years in China studying Ba Gua before the development of Aikido.

Watching Ba Gua demonstrated in application on a live person looked similar to Aikido in application and vice versa. Both looking similar in application.

How much of Ueshiba Sensei's background is not mentioned in regards to specific Martial Arts he studied? Is there information held back for any reason?

akiy
10-28-2005, 11:00 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2098
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6259

-- Jun

Walter Wong
10-28-2005, 11:15 AM
Thank you Jun. :)

I looked around and couldn't find these myself. :hypno:

Devon Natario
10-28-2005, 04:29 PM
Historians say that all martial arts stem from China in one way or another.

Jun has posted a couple links, one of which answers your question about Ueshiba. (The second one) Check it out.

aikido funky monkey
10-28-2005, 04:47 PM
Historians say that all martial arts stem from China in one way or another.-devan natorio
that is not true along time ago at an island called okinahwah(not sure if i spelled it right) off of japan is where karate came from then it came to china then to japan and is now considered a japanese martial art

Sanshouaikikai
10-28-2005, 09:37 PM
No, Kyle...Karate was brought over to Okinawa by Chinese people. Karate originally meant "Chinese Hand" then...later on...the meaning was changed to "Empty Hand". All martial arts stem from China. Shui Jiao, for instance, is the predecessor to all Oriental grappling arts such as Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, etc. Ba Gua, Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I, and other Qi Gong (internal martial arts) are styles that have influenced other styles like Aikido, Hapkido, etc. In fact, I too have been told and have read that Ueshiba studied Ba Gua Zhang in China and that's where he picked up a lot of his internal Ki techniques and stuff. I have even heard this from top ranked Aikidoka...so...I'm pretty sure it's true, you know? All the other types of styles (striking) of course stemmed from Chinese striking styles of Wushu of Kung Fu. So...pretty much everything came from China in regards to the origins of the Martial Arts. The only thing is that when these Chinese styles were taught to foreigners like Okinawans, Japanese, Koreans, Thai, etc. they were modified to fit their environment, you know? So...that's where we get Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do (which means "Way of the Tang Hand"...Tang being a Chinese emperor who was a ruthless warrior...this style however...being "Korean"), Judo, Aikido, Jujutsu, Muay Thai, etc. etc.

mathewjgano
10-28-2005, 10:31 PM
While I'm not trying to say even the vast majority of martial arts aren't Chinese based or influenced, it seems incorrect to say "all" martial arts came from China. There were western martial arts, for example, though, to my knowledge, they typically weren't as extensive as those in the eastern traditions.

xuzen
10-28-2005, 10:34 PM
Once upon a time, there evolved man (homo-sapien)... Man need food, he hunts. Hunting mean killing. Killing need martial skill. Man also need protection, protection demand martial skill. Man then needs to procreate, procreation demands the most skillful man beat his rival male. Defeating rival male needs martial skills. Martial art is pretty much a humanity development not necessary attributed to any particular civilization. However, credit must be given to the Chinese, Greeks and Indians for pioneering its cataloging and initiating its pedagogical development.

Boon.

Charles Hill
10-29-2005, 12:27 AM
There were western martial arts, for example, though, to my knowledge, they typically weren't as extensive as those in the eastern traditions.

Hi Matthew,

I highly recommend checking out the Russian Martial Art of Systema. Very extensive and very relevent.

BTW, I recently had dinner with the editor of Hiden, the Japanese Budo, Bujutsu magazine. He told me that he met a martial arts teacher in Bejing that swears Morihei Ueshiba often visited and trained at his school many years back. The editor did say that the man was quite old and that he is not sure how reliable the teacher`s memory is.

Charles

NixNa
10-29-2005, 01:19 AM
Once upon a time, there evolved man (homo-sapien)... Man need food, he hunts. Hunting mean killing. Killing need martial skill. Man also need protection, protection demand martial skill. Man then needs to procreate, procreation demands the most skillful man beat his rival male. Defeating rival male needs martial skills. Martial art is pretty much a humanity development not necessary attributed to any particular civilization. However, credit must be given to the Chinese, Greeks and Indians for pioneering its cataloging and initiating its pedagogical development.

Boon.

Agreed. Although there have been many legends and attempts to unearth the true origins of the m. arts, and even with the chinese saying of "all the m.arts in the world originated frm shaolin monastery", we still can't verify it. Particularly when the origins of wingchun, tkd, and karate alone have so many versions. But somehow looking at it, it does seem to trace back to the chinese, greeks n indians, or even ancient egyptians.

Sanshouaikikai
10-29-2005, 09:57 PM
Yeah...Western arts like Boxing, Fencing, Wrestling, and Pankration. That's it though. Russia isn't really in the "West". It's in Asia thus all of its Martial Arts stem from Oriental systems mixed with traditional Russian folk wrestling or something.

Charles Hill
10-29-2005, 10:47 PM
Hi Alan,

I don`t think Russia can be considered Asian, at least ethnically. The System taught by Mikhail Ryabko has as its base Christianity and the teachings of the Bible. Interestingly, Mikhail says that the source of Chinese martial arts are the teachings of the Russian bodyguards employed by Chinese emperors. This is in an interview at Aikidojournal.com. Me?, I don`t know, but it is an interesting idea.

Charles

ad_adrian
10-30-2005, 02:55 AM
mate it just traces back to humans eva since humans started fighting eva humans started existing they started evolving ways to fight

Amir Krause
10-30-2005, 09:27 AM
Japanese M.A. were influenced by the Chinese, there is no controversy here. But most of that influence was hundred of years ago, not directly relevant for Aikido or Judo, and even in the case of Karate, it is probably the origins of the art, not the way it had been taught a hundred years ago (the last is a guess, I know very little on Karate).

Unlike some M.A. the case of Aikido is very clear. Ueshiba Aikido is mostly Daito-ryu, Ueshiba learnt this style, it is recorded. Looking at Daito-ryu one can see the similarities with ease. Even other changes can be quite directly identified to the other Japanese M.A. Ueshiba had learnt and are recorded.

While Aikido may remind some people of Ba-Gua, that does not mean much more then finding similar solutions to similar problems.

Amir

markwalsh
10-30-2005, 09:45 AM
"Once upon a time, there evolved man (homo-sapien)... Man need food, he hunts. Hunting mean killing. Killing need martial skill. Man also need protection, protection demand martial skill. Man then needs to procreate, procreation demands the most skillful man beat his rival male. Defeating rival male needs martial skills."

This story is dangerous and not as logical as it first sounds. Further, the evidence doesn't support it.

Consider these facts;

Humans are group hunters so their primary "weapon" is communication and planning. The spear chucking bit is the full stop at the end.

Systems involving co-operation, harmony, interdependence and group processes are an important but less obvious side of evolution. :ai:

Studies of the remains left by ancient man (and the equally vicious rival defeating women:) show that hunted food was not that significant in terms of calorie intake - though may have served an important ritualistic/symbolic function.

If defeating rivals through martial skill is the only mechanism for sexual selection why to Peacocks have cool tails and not talons? And if it's the only way for individuals/ species to be successful - why are humans so frail?


I'm not having a go at Nixon for portraying this - it's the dominant view in the world today- but in my opinion (after some serious study) it better reflects the way things are now (eg capitalist, competitive, individualist) and not the way nature works or the evidence of our past.

Apologies that this is off topic but it' a fundamental story that drives a lot of our martial duologue, that is [B]deeply messed up[B]. Assumptions about what is "natural" change over time to justify the BS of the era.

..............

We're all African originally, so I guess all martial arts are too :)

Joe Bowen
10-30-2005, 11:08 PM
The statement that all martial arts come from China is one of those blanket statements that people like to make in order to promote their own ideas or martial art style. It is quite similar to the statement that 90% of all fights end up on the ground. There is no empirical data the supports either of this two ideas.
This is way too big a topic, covering too many thousands of years, shrouded in the mist of multilingual and cultural contexts to get anything definitive.
Hell, we cannot get any two "high ranking" aikido shihan to agree on half the stories that O Sensei told and how many martial arts, O Sensei studied. If we cannot even reach back far enough to dispel all of the conjecture about a man who died in 1969, how can we even presume to pierce the thousands of years that veil the creation of every single martial art that currently exists or that ever existed with enough certainty that we can issue such a statement.
There are people out there who are much smarter than me that can make credible arguments on either side of this issue. They have spent many long hours pouring over books and ledgers, and researching and cataloging all sorts of information.
Some say its true some say its not, I just go to practice. And right now, it matters not. :D
Ba Gua is a great martial art, I love to see it done, and have a great deal of respect for those that can do it well, but just because you can see similarities in Ba Gua and Aikido does not mean the arts are related. Debating this will only take time away from your practice and possibly give you a headache... :uch: But, if that's what floats your boat...go right ahead and draw a connection between Aikido and Ba Gua.

ian
10-31-2005, 07:39 AM
No - all martial arts do not come from china. Reconstruction and investigation into western martial arts is now taking place (which are suprising similar). Chinese culture influenced Japanese culture enormoulsy, and the feudal system ended it Japan relatively late (compared to the west), thus 'martial arts' are often associated with Japan.

What doesn't seem to have been solved is a pertinent question arising from these discussions: can the study of chinese martial arts directly benefit aikido. I'll move this on to a new thread.

Walter Wong
10-31-2005, 11:18 AM
All the other types of styles (striking) of course stemmed from Chinese striking styles of Wushu of Kung Fu.
It's a misconception that certain Chinese arts are only striking. Striking, kicking, takedowns/throws, and locks/chokes are emphasis in every Chinese style. When speaking of any Chinese Martial Art it's about both striking and grappling. Schools of Chinese Martial Arts that don't emphasize or teach the grappling aspect of a Chinese style is incomplete in their training and curricullum. I have a take down and lock for every movement in my first basic Long Fist (classical, not the modern wushu version) form.

As for the first 2 links, I found the 2nd one more interesting yes.
I guess it's tough to conclude if Aikido has any connection to any Chinese art or if it's coincidence because the human body can only move in so many ways.

Chuck.Gordon
10-31-2005, 12:22 PM
Walter Wong asked:
>Is there information held back for any reason?

No. Ueshiba had some adventures in China, but he never, apparently, had any interaction with Chinese MA folks during those adventures, unless it was in the process of either a: slapping the crap out of the locals or b: getting the crap slapped out of him by the locals.

Devon Natario
10-31-2005, 06:04 PM
Kung-Fu, like Walter says, encompasses everything.

I remember the first Gung-Fu instructor I had. I told him I was a Black Belt in Jujitsu and he asked me to show him some moves.

He would then show me the moves the Chinese way. Both ways were effective, but it was interesting to me to see grappling techniques or Chin Na in the Chinese arts. Back tne I had assumed Gung-Fu was all fancy kicks and fancy punches.

My point that each art stemmed from China was only to say that internal arts like Aikido have long exhisted. I'm not taking away from Ueshiba, no one can, but there are similarities in all arts if you look for them. Like all arts, people do not usually just wake up one day and say, "I have discovered the Dim Mak!"

They research and learn and take from all around them and then create their own art from their years of experience and searching.

Sanshouaikikai
10-31-2005, 08:19 PM
Hey, Walter!
Sorry that you misunderstood what I said about Chinese striking arts. I didn't mean that Chinese arts are only striking...I know they're not because I've practiced Hun Gar, Ba Gua, and as my screen name implies...San Shou! So...I have a decent knowledge of Chinese arts and I know the amazing grappling techniques they have....though...I'm sure you'd kick the crap out of me anyday...do you know that San Shou kickboxer...I know his name is Alex but I forgot his last name...he's really good and he's from around your area?

Walter Wong
11-01-2005, 07:15 AM
Oh, sorry Alan. I misunderstood you regarding Chinese arts and striking. I also apologize cause I didn't noticed the SanShou in your screenname. I only looked at your real name Alan Rodrigues above your screenname.

I'm not aware of who Alex is. I'm not very good with too many fight competitor names. I just know a few from San Shou, UFC and Pride type competitions. I know a couple San Shou fighters name Al and Marvin from Boston San Shou under Jason Yee.

I hope no one thought I was trying to take anything away from Ueshiba Sensei. I too think he is awesome. I was curious if he any connection to Chinese arts. By the sounds of it, it just seems the similarities are coincidence. Much like someone stated earlier of Greco Roman wrestling and Judo similarities but didn't influence each other and had no connection.

Sanshouaikikai
11-01-2005, 01:42 PM
Walter,
I don't know why I said Alex...I meant Jason Yee...what the heck is wrong with me!? LOL! I forgot his name completely and thought his name was Alex...the funny thing is that I do that ALL the time...there's got be some sort of remedy for that, lol. Anywho...yeah...Jason Yee...he's mad sweet! I like Cung Le though. From what I've heard and read, Ueshiba studied Ba Gua Zhang...but...of course...no one knows for sure...that's just what I've been told. However...the Martial Arts in Asia for the most part all come from Chinese origins...no one can really argue that and get away with it, you know what I mean? Like all the Grappling arts in Korea and Japan for the most part were derived from Shui Jiao which is Mongolian/Chinese wrestling and the oldest form of Chinese Kung Fu around. Anywho...Ueshiba was sweet and I don't think you nor I nor anyone else on this site is taking anything away from him, you know what I mean?

Chuck.Gordon
11-02-2005, 10:10 AM
Historians say that all martial arts stem from China in one way or another..

Which historians?

Some martial arts come form China, some Japanese arts are influenced to some degree by Chinese stsyems. Others have nothing to do with China or Japan whatsoever.

AIkido is pretty uniquely Japanese, stemming from Daito Ryu jujutsu with minor influences from a couple of other Japanese ryuha.

When Ueshiba was journeying in China the first time, he was a soldier, enlisted, basically under tight control and painting rocks or rearranging holes as soldiers have always done when they weren't shooting at things.

The second time, he wasn't seeking out Chinese instructors, he was trying to conquer part of it to help create an Omoto Kyo paradise on earth.

The Chinese influence of aikido is pretty much limited to some writings and concepts that drifted in through Japanese classical literature.

A more interesting question might be: What influence did the Japanese occupation of Chine (and Korea for that matter) have on the indigineous martial arts?

Kevin Leavitt
11-02-2005, 12:11 PM
I don't think ALL martial arts come from China that is not correct. If you really believed that logic, then you would have to say "all martial arts came from india" since Boddiharma brought a "system of exercises" to the shaolin monks.

Every organized society has developed some form of martial arts because they all ended up warring at some point.

What the eastern countries such as India, China, and Japan did was connect it to religion, spirituality, and philosophy that set what they did apart from everyone else. Their practices I believe become more refined because of the "rules" of their societies based on their culture. Both China and Japan's cultures encouraged the development of martial arts that we know today.

In the west martial arts became something quite different, an efficient way to vanquish your foe.

We in the west have romanticized eastern arts and when you hear the term "martial art" you think of guys in ninja costumes or white pajamas. Martial arts are much broader in scope than that. They would include handguns and other strategies for control and restraint.

What is important about the eastern arts from china and japan is the philosophical base they exploited into the Tao, Do, or Budo in the case of japanese arts of Judo, Karatedo, and AIkido.

Many people in the west think they study martial arts for "self defense", and "fighting skills" , but if we were to really be honest and put aside all the emotions about getting jumped in an alley by the proverbial 300lb mugger, we would see it is quite a waste of time to study empty hand arts for that reason!

Anyway, look around you, there are many more martial arts out there than you see or think, many were developed without even knowing China exisited.

Mike Sigman
11-02-2005, 06:51 PM
Some martial arts come form China, some Japanese arts are influenced to some degree by Chinese stsyems. Others have nothing to do with China or Japan whatsoever.

AIkido is pretty uniquely Japanese, stemming from Daito Ryu jujutsu with minor influences from a couple of other Japanese ryuha. I would be interested to hear the name of one Japanese martial art uninfluenced by Chinese martial arts.

Mike Sigman

PeterR
11-02-2005, 07:22 PM
Jukendo?

Mike Sigman
11-02-2005, 07:31 PM
Sort of a sly try, doncha think? Check out the relationship of the arts taught in the Rikugun Toyama Gakko ... that bayonet training had a start in other arts, Peter.

Besides, I was asking Chuck to support his assertion.

Mike

PeterR
11-02-2005, 07:37 PM
Jukendo is based on French bayonet training.

Mike Sigman
11-02-2005, 08:24 PM
http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Jukendo1.html

I know it won't mean much to you, Peter, but I'm just throwing it in for the cognoscenti to look at. Regardless, instead of your attempt to muddy the issue, consider presenting me with a traditional or popular Japanese art that is not influenced by China.

Mike Sigman

PeterR
11-02-2005, 09:04 PM
Mike;

You asked.

I would be interested to hear the name of one Japanese martial art uninfluenced by Chinese martial arts.

I gave a pretty clear answer.

and you responded with

presenting me with a traditional or popular Japanese art that is not influenced by China

Do I dare respond and have the goal posts moved again not to mention subject myself to feeble insults. Not cognoscenti indeed. Can you perhaps try to carry on a conversation without hiding behind them.

I wont argue against the huge influence China has had on Japanese culture but it wasn't wholesale, waxed and waned, and went off on some pretty unique tangents. At what point does it stop being Chinese and become Japanese - you seem to be saying never.

Jukendo is based on French bayonet manuals which the Japanese took and made particularily Japanese like they tend to do. They didn't copy the art from China. Jodo, was apparently invented by a Japanese, not imported. Chuck's point on Aikido was that it was derived from Daito Ryu which, if there was a Chinese influence on the latter, it goes back far enough to have had plenty of time to be morphed into a Japanese thing.

I guess the question is how minor an influence, how far back in time is worth commenting on.

http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Jukendo1.html

I know it won't mean much to you, Peter, but I'm just throwing it in for the cognoscenti to look at. Regardless, instead of your attempt to muddy the issue, consider presenting me with a traditional or popular Japanese art that is not influenced by China.

Mike Sigman

markwalsh
11-02-2005, 10:00 PM
Tell me an American art that was not influenced by Europe?

(this isn't a dig at the states)

PeterR
11-02-2005, 10:10 PM
Mud wrestling?


Seriously its the same argument and a very good analogy.

Baseball can be traced through Rounders

but how about Basketball (we'll forget for a moment that it was actually invented by a Canadian).
Well it uses a court and baskets, both of which existed in Europe, the rules are quite traditional vis a vis fair play, I guess you could say it had European influence. However, not to many people would say its European although there are a few teams that might make it so eventually.

Chuck.Gordon
11-03-2005, 05:05 AM
I would be interested to hear the name of one Japanese martial art uninfluenced by Chinese martial arts.

Mike Sigman

Heya Mike, still beating the Chinese drum, I see.

I said: Some martial arts come form China, some Japanese arts are influenced to some degree by Chinese stsyems. Others have nothing to do with China or Japan whatsoever.

Sumo, for one. Although belt wrestling is found throughout Asia, Sumo in its own and spefically in its mature form, is pretty uniquely Japanese. Any Chinese influence will have come through Shinto rathern than in technical applications.

Jukendo, hanbojutsu (a la Uchida Ryu), for example, have strong European origins. The SMR's hanbo/tanjo waza were originally called 'sutekki (stick) waza, and were strongly influenced by la Canne and other Western walking stick methods.

'Chinese influence' is not the same as 'derived from' ...

Chuck.Gordon
11-03-2005, 05:09 AM
Bump: A more interesting question might be: What influence did the Japanese occupation of China (and Korea for that matter) have on the indigineous martial arts?

Mike Sigman
11-03-2005, 06:21 AM
Heya Mike, still beating the Chinese drum, I see. I don't beat any Chinese drum and I'm not 'elitist' in the trendy koryu sense about martial arts, Chuck. I tend to look at the overall picture. As big a Japanophile (to coin a word) as I was, I found out that I was missing the bigger picture... which includes India, BTW, if you want to accuse me of beating drums. Sumo, for one. Although belt wrestling is found throughout Asia, Sumo in its own and spefically in its mature form, is pretty uniquely Japanese. Any Chinese influence will have come through Shinto rathern than in technical applications. Really? Would you like to place a small wager? I used to think that, too, just like I used to think that Japanese swords were uniquely Japanese. It's not true, Chuck. Look at it from the other side..... maybe the problem is not Mike "beating the Chinese drum" but some Japanophiles with fixed, limited ideas doing what they think is protecting their own turf. Ever thought about it from that side? Jukendo, hanbojutsu (a la Uchida Ryu), for example, have strong European origins. The SMR's hanbo/tanjo waza were originally called 'sutekki (stick) waza, and were strongly influenced by la Canne and other Western walking stick methods.

'Chinese influence' is not the same as 'derived from' ...Watch the video clip of the jukendo 'attack' in the kata. It's not a French attack with a kiai and half-step... anyone knowledgeable will immediately see that even thought Peter was trying to be smarmy, he's on slippery ground because there's a question of just what the influences are in the Jukendo. However, simply getting away from Jukendo and focusing more on the thrust of what I was saying, look at what you're having to do to find out-of-mainstream arts to TRY to find something without Chinese influence. Heck, I used to use Filipino and Indonesia stick fightings as my examples, Chuck... until I found out the huge amount of 2-stick and single short-stick fighting styles that are in China and which used to be used by a lot of the traders from China. Peter's example of "jodo" is another example.... I can show you DVD's of short-staff fighting and forms from China (ancient ones, nothing modern) that look like Tohei must have borrowed for his favorite kata.

In regard to your question about Japanese influence on China... you tell me. I have seen where *some* Chinese think the belt system is a good idea and they've tried to incorporate it. I've seen the importation of some judoka to China in order to teach the shuai jiao people the accepted rules so they can compete in tournaments. When China opened up a couple of decades ago, what were the exchanges and what's going on now? The film crews and enthusiasts *flocked* to China to get films of the coveted Chinese martial arts and Chinese teachers are hard to get in the US because Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc., pay top dollar to get them to teach... we simply can't compete. There is no demand for Japanese martial arts teaching in China. You tell me the influences.

It's because I already knew these things (and trust me, they were contrary to my initial pro-Japan instincts, which I still have to this day) that I was so surprised to find as much knowledge of the ki and kokyu training *among the higher levels of Japanese martial arts*. The lower levels and the westerners involved in Japanese martial arts apparently know next to nothing, but they're too arrogant and proud to even consider that possibility, as obvious as it is.

FWIW

Mike

mathewjgano
11-03-2005, 04:45 PM
Peter's example of "jodo" is another example.... I can show you DVD's of short-staff fighting and forms from China (ancient ones, nothing modern) that look like Tohei must have borrowed for his favorite kata
You asked for an example. Are you suggesting that because they look alike (jodo, in this case) that they must be directly influenced? I don't think the people here are arguing that China hasn't influenced Japanese martial arts as much as they're arguing over where the line gets drawn regarding when we can say something is actively influenced by its culture. This is a rather subjective line, don't you agree?
FWIW,
M
ps-I could care less about which art was influenced by what culture. You seem to be rather good at stirring things up though...perhaps there's some arrogance, real or perceived, on both ends of that "westerner" stick?

Mike Sigman
11-03-2005, 04:59 PM
You asked for an example. Are you suggesting that because they look alike (jodo, in this case) that they must be directly influenced? Why don't you go look at some of the Chinese short staff before you spout off, Matt? Show an interest in progress instead of protecting the status quo myths. ps-I could care less about which art was influenced by what culture. You seem to be rather good at stirring things up though...perhaps there's some arrogance, real or perceived, on both ends of that "westerner" stick? I realize that "stirring things up" may be a bit too martial for you, Matt, and I apologize.

Mike

mathewjgano
11-03-2005, 06:37 PM
Why don't you go look at some of the Chinese short staff before you spout off, Matt?

I didn't doubt that they would look even identical. Did you not understand my point?

Show an interest in progress instead of protecting the status quo myths.

I did. I may have been off the mark in my understanding though.

I realize that "stirring things up" may be a bit too martial for you, Matt, and I apologize.

Conflict is something I know too well, Mike. You have no need to appologize to me for being "too martial." I made an observation which is certainly subject to my own perceptional short-comings. On top of that, it's hard to get a real sense of people when speaking to them online.
Take care,
Matt

Charles Hill
11-03-2005, 09:00 PM
There is no demand for Japanese martial arts teaching in China.

Hey, I`ll jump in here. Jun posted an interesting article a while back on a federation of Aikido dojo in and around Beijing. In the short time the group has been in existence, there has been a huge increase in the number of practioners and dojo according to the article.

Charles

Rupert Atkinson
11-03-2005, 10:36 PM
Beijing? Went on a vist earlier this year - I sent them an email asking where and when training was but got no reply.